Trump's Pal Ghislaine Was Worse Than Epstein | The Daily Beast Podcast

We should as as Americans demand that because we want to know what's going on. Are they having a secret deal with the woman who was grooming children. for Jeffrey Epstein? I'm Joanne Nichols, I'm the chief content officer of the Daily Beast. I'm back from my vacation. Thank you to Hugh Daugherty for holding the fort so ably. And thank you for your comments on YouTube. Noticing my absence, I appreciate it. I come back to find a white House reeling in panic. with the Jeffrey Epstein story that simply will not go away.

The MAGA base is riled up, and who better to talk to today. than Tara Palmeri, an expert on Ghislaine Maxwell? Because in an extraordinary development, Todd Blanch, the deputy attorney general, has said he's going down to interview Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's literal partner in crime at her Florida jail. Now Guillén, you may remember, was found guilty of sex. trafficking in June of 2020 and sentenced to 20 years in jail.

So the question is, what does Gillum have that the victims haven't already given up? Why is Todd Blanch going to see her? And what does Tara, who's been talking a lot to the women. involved in this story, what does Tara actually think is going on here? So we are here. with Tara Palmeri, who knows more about Ghislaine Maxwell. And I'm sure she ever wanted to, Tara, let's start at the beginning as we speak.

Guillén is in a Florida jail. In 2022, she was sentenced to 240 months in jail. So 20 years in jail for sex trafficking. She's appealed. Last November, her appeal was turned down. And then this week, she gets the most extraordinary news. that Todd Blanch, the deputy A.G., is going to see her.

So talk us through what it's like in the prison. and what we think the conversation is going to be about. Well, according to her family, she's treated terribly right. They're really fighting for her conditions in the in the. in the prison to be better. Or they say, oh, she can't sleep. The light is shown and in her eyes, she's treated poorly. And, you know, they've long been saying it's been unjust. that she's been a victim the entire time, that she's been innocent. And that's why she refused to testify in her own case.

She's not exactly the most sympathetic character. Why would anybody who's innocent refused to testify in their own case? Well, I don't think she would do well on cross-examination, number one. Number two, I don't think the jury would be sympathetic to her. She's a woman who is obviously comes from a high class. She's, you know, Oxford. educated, multiple passports, lived a high flying lifestyle. All. And the fact that she was even spending time with these young girls.

who did testify is just plain creepy and weird. And it's hard to explain why. she has a relationship with children outside of ones that are related to her. Right? The jury found no question about it that she was. his literally partner in crime. Yes. And she assaulted a lot of the girls. I mean, she did that herself. She was with them, with him sexually assaulting them on top of grooming them. And this is the part of the story that I find to be extremely frustrating, because I'm sure you see this too. Joanna.

On online, people are saying she's a martyr. She's being persecuted just because she's a woman. But when I talk to a lot of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein, so many of them. are actually even more angry at Glenn Maxwell than they are at Jeffrey, because they feel that she used. the fact that she was a woman to lure them in, because little girls don't just show up on a 50 year old man's doorstep. They were brought in by a woman who not only was, posh. while educated, elegant, spoke well, showed interest in them, wanted to show.

mentorship, promised them that she could fulfill their dreams. I mean, one of the girls was at Interlochen. I mean, they were trying to become models and singers and actresses and. and they were young girls who believed that the world was was in front of them. And Glenn Maxwell was this well-connected person who could do anything. to make their dreams come true. And instead she trapped them. She brought them over to Epstein. And I think it's sort of lost in this whole story that this entire.

mass of the sex trafficking operation that expanded to as many as 1000. victims was not possible without her at the top of the pyramid. Now, there were other recruiters below her, but if I look at this, I look at it as a pyramid and Glenn Maxwell's at the top. She was running the operation. This was and this was a this was a crime. This was a criminal operation. And I and I want to read actually what the U.S. attorney general for the Southern District. of New York, Damian Williams, said when she was sentenced.

Today's sentence holds Ghislaine Maxwell accountable. for perpetrating heinous crimes against children. This sentence sends a strong message that no one. is above the law, and it is never too late for justice. And then he goes on to express, his gratitude that the victims came. forward and talked about what were clearly extremely disturbing crimes. This was not a crime of passion. It was well thought out, premeditated, ways of enticing and cajoling.

young women into a web which they were then unable to get themselves out of. Absolutely. And the way that she openly bragged to people about Jeffrey's 24 hour. erections and his need for multiple orgasms per day, three per day, and that she was out there, you know, she had to get in her car. Maria Farmer I spoke to, yesterday and she was recalling to me. how she would get in the car with Glenn Maxwell.

Glenn had this cute little Yorkshire terrier, Max. Right. It makes sense. Right. And they would drive around and they would see beautiful girls, and they would say to them, you're so gorgeous. You need to be a Victoria's Secret model. I mean, who's not going to be enchanted by that? And, she's in her Ralph Lauren and and she's. being driven around and she's like, please come to this to my townhouse. You know, I'm friends with the founder of Victoria's Secret. And but before that, in the morning, Maria. remembers her screaming, I need to get the new Biles.

I need to get the new Biles. I mean, this was a this was a thing that she did every single day. This was what she. She picked up. Virginia Roberts Giuffre on the property at Mar-A-Lago. She went there, found her. Juan Alessi, who was the house man who I interviewed, recalled. being in the car, sweating, waiting for Glenn to go out there, pick this girl out, bring her and make sure she gets back to the house, you know, by the evening. So she would boast that she could introduce them. to the founder of Victoria's Secret, less Wexner, which is true.

because they were friends. and that they just had to go for an audition at Jeffrey Epstein's house. in the Upper East Side. And these girls would come and they would meet and then leave. a circle and, many of them obviously never to come back. Some sadly did, but there was a whole mental manipulation and it all as well. I mean, Glenn Maxwell was critical to getting these girls in the door. Jeffrey Epstein couldn't walk around a park. and go to young girls and say, do you want to be a model?

I of course, no shade. That would be creepy. The girls would think, oh, I'm not going to do that. She gave him a cover. It reminds me, actually, of a terrible mass murderer. in the UK called Fred West, who used his wife, Rosemary. They would cruise around in a car, look for young women, often standing at bus stops, and she would lean out of the window and say, oh, can we give you a lift? And somehow people will be reassured. that because she was a woman, there would be no danger here. And of course, the two of them. were terrible sadists and murdered a whole host of young women.

Absolutely. I mean, her class, her. Well, her just everything about her, her connections. And and with Virginia Giuffre, it was Glenn Maxwell driving around in a car with the houseman. She sees Virginia Giuffre at Mar-A-Lago, walks up to her. Virginia says, I want to be a massage therapist. I can make your dreams come true. I'll get you a massage therapy. Come to Jeffrey's house, we'll teach you how to give massages. What happens? She goes into the home and she's assaulted.

Not just by Jeffrey Epstein, but by Glenn as well. I think a lot of people forget that Glenn also sexually assaulted these girls. You know, she was also a sexual predator. And of course, she was. I mean, what's so fascinating about her? She was well connected that she could introduce people to Prince Andrew, who, of course, has been felled by this story, too. His mother ended up writing a check for 12 million pounds. to get this case sort of off his back. So so let's talk a little bit more about. how did Guillén meet Jeffrey Epstein and how did she become.

a fixture on the sort of New York party circuit? That's a good question. So it's still unclear. To be clear, we've never gotten down to the bottom of how they met, but we do know that Robert Maxwell, while he was still alive, knew Jeffrey Epstein. There is a picture of them together in the Plaza Hotel during Robert Maxwell's. What? When Robert Maxwell was alive. Just for some background, Robert Maxwell was a famous press baron.

He owned the Daily Mirror, MTV Europe, the New York Daily News. He was a larger than life character. I mean, you could compare him to some, maybe. a Rupert Murdoch. I mean, he thought that Rupert Murdoch was his was his rival, right. He was kind of like a Logan Roy character from succession. Came from nothing, from a shuttle in Central Europe. And he, he rose up from nothing, and he wanted to prove himself. He was also friends with Donald Trump by the way. And I remember, during my reporting on the podcast power the Maxwells,

Glenn said to her father, daddy, can I can I go to Donald Trump. and try to sell him one of my corporate gifts? Because that was her, like fake job. And he said, why the f for Donald Trump, one of your corporate gifts? But it was very clear that they all spent time together. when Robert Maxwell would come to New York. because he owned the New York Daily News, he would spend time. on his yacht on the Hudson, and and Donald Trump would go there. And it all seemed like they were kind of spiraling in the same circles.

What we do know, though, is that when Robert Maxwell died. shortly after Glenn Maxwell ended up in New York City, and that was where she started her life after living in London as a socialite. And we know that she did not live in poverty, even though her father had robbed the pensioners at the Daily Mirror. I mean, that's part of that's right. It's important to remind people who aren't as on top of the story. as perhaps you are, that her father turned out to be.

an extraordinary con man, extraordinary con man, I mean, and hiding in plain sight, hiding in plain sight. A bit like Jeffrey Epstein, surrounded by very influential, important people. who didn't understand, or at least didn't appear to understand. that he was robbing the pension fund of the newspaper. group, the mirror Group, and and stole half 1 billion pounds. And this was 25 years ago. So an extraordinary amount of money. And the way he died, it's very similar died in question like Jeffrey Epstein.

People wondered what he killed. Or did he kill himself? Did he kill himself because the jig was up and everyone knew that the pensions. were being stolen? Or did he die off the side of his yacht? Lady? Lady Glenn, that she named after his favorite daughter. By the way, he loved Glenn. We can go into that, too. But, you know, there were a lot of questions. Glenn did not want to believe that her father committed suicide. In fact, she said that he was killed because of the way his body was found.

that there wasn't water found in the lungs. She did not believe that her father, committed suicide. And for the same reasons that they thought that he didn't. He believed he was above the law. He wasn't the type of person who would commit suicide. And I think they believed that she would if if he was, I don't know if he was prosecuted, he he would probably he'd probably win. Or there was just as she said on the record and in an interview with hello! Magazine, he was murdered. And that was what she believed.

And so this is daddy's little girl. He had. this affection for Glenn. He thought that she looked more like him than the others. He literally said, yeah, she did look like. Yeah, exactly. And she said, he said he had I think he had 8 or 9 children. And he said, none of my children, not even his wife would get anything. None of his money. Only Glenn and the youngest boy, Ian, because Ian was like him and Glenn was his friend.

And even in pictures you could see that he was, like, proud to have Glenn on his arm, but not his wife. Daddy. It's like he admired her. And this is very weird and not dissimilar to Donald. Trump in the sense that he sort of. leaned in to Ivanka and her hotness as he referred to it. And of course, Ian is very much, has very much been fighting for Glenn's. release from jail. So just take us to, because I want to come back to more of her.

background, too, but just take us to where it stands legally at the moment. The deputy Attorney General, Terblanche, as we mentioned. earlier, is going to see her she yesterday or through a connection, let it be known she doesn't want the documents unsealed. Right. Presumably because she's in them and not favorably. But what do you make of that. and what, Jillian possibly have to say? And also, how is it possible that the,

Justice Department hasn't already spoken to her? Right. So, like you said, lots of questions that. Yeah. Let's start from the grand jury testimony. Why she wouldn't want to out there for the reason that you stated. it's not going to make her look good. And any shred of martyrdom that's out there, any shred of sympathy. that people have saying, oh, the only person who's been prosecuted. is a woman, and all these Johns are out there. It's unfair. I think that would be thrown out the window. when you actually understand. the gravity of her crimes and you see the witness testimony and the,

you know, of what these girls have gone through, these survivors. so I could understand that, I don't think it helps her case in the public eye. And now Todd Blanch going to meet with her now. And also, presumably, it would make it much more difficult for Donald Trump to pardon her. Oh, because even Donald Trump would find that hard to pardon. Oh, absolutely. I mean, repulsive it really is. And that's why I don't understand this whole Free Glenn movement. It really it really bothers me, really bothers the victims to,

and then the whole idea of why hasn't she spoken to the prosecutors yet? Right. Well, I've always believed that Glenn Maxwell is, like, extremely shrewd. Right. And her power was in holding on to these secrets. and that she would figure out a time and the right moment, perhaps politically, to use that to commute her sentence. I don't think that she ever thought she would serve 20 year sentence. And oh, gosh, don't be that shrewd. Because first of all, she was found hiding.

in New Hampshire with silver foil like Baker. That is true. I now it's like. I mean, what will that that's such a conspiracy theory. that somehow putting Baker foil around your phone will keep the FBI away? Why did it take them so long to find her at the same time? I mean, that's very good point. Maybe it turns out to be more effective than we realized. And she was not. She was hiding in plain sight. Do you remember the like she had a Shake Shack in California? Is that her in France? It was a long, like, where in the world is Glenn Maxwell?

For months and months and months. But I assumed, I think I assumed like other people, it was because she was actually talking and trying to help the DOJ. with their inquiries. But but that's presumably wrong, I think. I mean, I don't have the answer to that. I also don't understand why they think that Glenn Maxwell would be so, so useful. when so many of the victims have their own John Lewis. and they can tell you stories themselves, why not just go to the victims? Why do you have to go to Glenn Maxwell? I mean, if you want to go. through the financial crimes, why not look at the transactions?

I mean, she can be helpful to a certain point, but is she really a reliable witness? I mean, she's a criminal. So what? What do we think, Todd? Blanche is actually going to ask her? The truth is strange. We will never know. And we don't know if there's going to be, if he's going to ask questions or if he's going to try. to strike a deal with her, or maybe get some information, say, this is what Glenn. Maxwell told us, but,

you know, some sort of wink, wink, nod, nod. She doesn't talk about Trump. It's understood that if they use her as some sort of witness in a case. that she'll avoid the third rail, what does that mean for her future? Does she exonerate him? Yeah. Does she exonerate Trump and seem like the kind of witness. that they could put forward to show that the president was not involved? And then does that somehow lead to leniency, a commuted sentence, pardoning?

I think it's worth it. I'm sure Trump at this point wants to know what could she say? And is it. You know, she would know better than anyone. besides the girls who have come forward. I think they're probably curious as to whether she's willing to talk. and what she would say that that would be my my thinking. There's a deal. You don't talk to the. You don't talk to the feds like you don't talk unless you are going.

to get something out of it. And that's why I think she's been holding on to this for so long. But why wouldn't she have talked before? Especially when she got a 20 year sentence? I mean, she's she's been on appeal process for a while, right? Not okay. So you think that because she had to go through the appeal process, she didn't. But I'm very surprised that initially she didn't want to try and strike a deal. when she was arrested. Initially. I. think if you give up. all of the goods initially, maybe.

I mean, listen, I'm not a I'm not an expert on. on criminal defense or how you would think as a defendant. But I would think that if you have really valuable, information, you would probably want to hold onto it. for as long as you can and then wait for the right moment to strike it. But I don't know that her information. is anything different than what would be in the files. It's hard. Blanch wants to know what she's willing to say. about the third rail, and that's Donald Trump,

right? Why wouldn't she have said this earlier? Well, if she if she talks about him, she'll never get a pardon from him. But she was sentenced. in 2022 before he was reelected. And at a time when no one imagined he would be reelected. It's true. The time to have wanted to do a plea deal, be AB3 years ago.

I don't understand why she would be sitting on this information. The woman is 63. She was sentenced to 20 years in jail. She'll be there until she's 80. Why on earth wouldn't she have come forward. if she has any valuable information earlier? Do you think that she really thinks she's going to spend 20 years in prison? I don't think she does. Well, I would have thought that any day in jail for someone like Ghislaine. Maxwell, who grew up with extraordinary wealth and privilege, and we know you. no point lived with Jeffrey Epstein in the largest private house in Manhattan.

I would imagine that every day in jail for Glenn. Maxwell is is a day too many, and that you would bargain. everything you have and every scrap of knowledge. you have about anybody to get the hell out. I would agree with you. But then again, look at what just presented itself to her. You've got a president who wants the story to go away, does not want his own name to be laundered through it. And here she is presenting an opportunity to speak.

But if she says the right things to possibly get a deal, leniency, clemency, a pardon. It's almost as if she could have, like, seen this, as if she predicted. that there would be an opportunity at some point for her to use her cards. I think the her power was always in the secrets and keeping those secrets. And she knew that it's a it's a absolutely crazy story. So we've got Mike Johnson having dispatched to the house early for recess. We imagine any other industry where they go, you know what?

We've decided everybody can leave early, go off on holiday early this year. I'm sure that's going to make people frustrated about politicians even more. But we've got various people. James Comer, ahead of the oversight committee, has said. that they're not prepared to offer her a reduction in sentence, but if she has information, they want to hear it. Do we think that that's going to come to fruition? I mean, Alan Dershowitz.

is out there saying she's going to get some sort of deal, essentially. Right. Alan Dershowitz was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. Alan Dershowitz was close with the Trump administration. Is Alan Dershowitz just talking because Alan Dershowitz does this. when news comes out and he wants to insert himself into the news cycle. Well, he was also accused of having, slept with underage women. Right. Something that, yeah, you know, furiously denied. Exactly. And. I just don't think she would talk without getting something.

And in exchange for it. And so extraordinary story it is. I'm almost certain that she will not speak unless she knows. she's getting some sort of clemency leniency, whether you see it now. or you see it in two years from now, or her sentence is commuted or she's pardoned. at the end of Trump's term, there is no way I. What I would demand is to see the transcript. of the conversation between Todd Blanch and Glenn Maxwell. I mean, we should as as Americans demand that because we want to know.

what's going on. Is this a secret deal? Are they having a secret deal with the woman who was grooming. children for Jeffrey Epstein? That's right. So that's your question. Is Todd Blanch offering Glenn Maxwell a secret deal? Yes. I mean, that is my question. Why else are you meeting with her? You have evidence. You have evidence from victims, right? What more do you need? Much evidence. Right. What more do you need? I'm just Tara. What is the MAGA base? Think about Glenn.

Oh, it's really mixed, actually. Some of them feel bad for her. I don't understand this. And it's it's led by people like Jessica Krauss. They had these shirts say free Glenn. There are others that say this is misogyny and sexism. And I agree that in this world, we have a ton of misogyny and sexism, but not in this case. I'm Glenn Maxwell. She did deserve to be in prison. And there are Johns. that deserve to be in prison as well, and they deserve cases against them.

But to think that, oh, you know, she's a she's somehow a martyr in this. There's no there are no martyrs in the Jeffrey Epstein story. There's only martyrs. Are the are the victims. So is it possible. that Trump is that Donald Trump is is concerned. about other people coming out here, other names coming out? Is he protecting other people? I mean, I I've seen a list of names,

that that Virginia Giuffre has been, traffic to. She showed me that list. Maybe they were in some way connected to Donald Trump. Nothing was like that clear to me. A lot of those names are not household names that people would know, but there are high net worth, powerful people. A lot of them are dead. Guillén met Jeffrey Epstein, probably through her father. She was hanging out in high society, so-called high society in Manhattan.

Why did people find her so compelling? Well, she had this. personality and this sort of. She was beguiling. You could say she was a little quirky. She was really connected. In fact, someone described her as almost being like a ballerina the way she worked a room. And she would, you know, flirt with men, and then she would, she, she just had this kind of confidence about her that she was larger than life.

She's a bit like Robert Maxwell, her father, and she was just seen as a highly connected. woman coming from an upper class. She was friends with princes. I mean, she was friends. Her father owned newspapers. She was she was a posh girl. People wanted to be around her. And when she flew around on private jets and she could actually, fly helicopters and jump out of them. And she went on to private islands and she could give people money. and for philanthropy. And there was just so many reasons why.

Glenn Maxwell was considered, you know, and in a person that people wanted to rub shoulders with. So she was at the center of things. She had access to the largest so-called private house in Manhattan, where she would throw parties where Jeffrey Epstein had interesting. guests, where she could bring Prince Andrew. And people were impressed to be adjacent to British royalty. And yet the whole time she was essentially.

raping children. Yeah. Yes. During the day, for sure. That was what she was doing. and showing up at, you know, book parties or having events. I mean, they literally had a 40th birthday party for Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, we talk about the 50th birthday card, right? From Donald Trump. That was very creepy. Suggesting that they were in on each other secret, but on the 40th birthday party, equally depraved event. So her friend Christopher Mason, who I interviewed, said that Glenn asked.

her, asked him to write a song and then sing it. for Jeffrey Epstein before the crowd at his 40th birthday at their townhouse. And the song Glenn asked for. Glenn asked that the song include. his 24 hour erections and his love of schoolgirls. It's. And it was sung before all these people, and it was just. all types of crimes hiding in plain sight, right? And this was the bacchanal style that she wanted. She wanted everyone to think it's a laugh.

And these girls are party favors and we're all in on it. It's just fun. Don't worry. And that's how she let people she got. She actually groomed the elites in some ways, because she got them to go. in for. the guests to, to drop, to drop their guard. Yeah. To feel comfortable, to feel like this is just a safe space and oh, that's normal. Everyone's laughing. And I mean, she would literally describe the girls as tissues. She said, you can throw them away. I mean, this is a woman who really dehumanized these these these children.

I mean, her father was not a great guy either. He was disgusting. And he's a famous bully. I had various friends who worked for him. And I think we said on the last time you were on the podcast, he used to interview people in his car on the way to his house from London, and then dropped people at the side of the road, and he used to pee. off the roof of the building, on to people walking on the street below, right. He used hand towels to wipe his bottom then, and left it for people. He did not care about humans. They had something in common in that sense.

He also he also. was incredibly abusive to Glenn. That's not necessarily physically, but she had an eating disorder. and he would like lock the kitchen and he would, around the table. He would really grill her, want her to learn the languages. of like Latin and French. And if she got something wrong, he would demean her and debase her and he would scream at her. But then at the same time he would praise her. So he was constantly doing mind manipulations with her as well.

This is not to give her any sort of break, but this is you. If you ever want to understand. the psychology of a psychopath, understand who made them. And so this is her father. So. Yeah, I mean, Glenn was so key to making everyone feel comfortable, and. her Rolodex was impressive. I mean, she literally would just cozy up to people, get their numbers, and then. And put it in the little black books and notes out she managed. The less she managed their social connections. She made them. She was right.

And she also had a sort of faux charity right. Her ocean charity. Well, everyone needs a charity in that world, right? So it's nice. But philanthropy also works as a cover for illicit behavior. Right. And it says pull into your world. that that assume that they're doing legitimate business with you. And in fact, what you're doing is giving them cover. Yeah, it's laundering a reputation. Also expressing that you have your so you have such a surplus of money.

that you can spend it on charity. And it's so much of that world is about upper class world is about, you know, being able to be keeping up with the Joneses. And this was her thing, and she cared about the ocean. Okay. I mean, fine, she did. Ted talks on it of the young women you spoke to, who were the ones that left the biggest impression on you? Well, besides Virginia, who I found to be incredibly brave. because for so long she had kept going for decade, over decade.

No one would listen to her, believe her for so long. I found her to be a very singular voice in society, like a victim. that would not a survivor who would not stop talking and trying to tell her story. So I really found her to be completely compelling, and she tried. to turn her pain into something that would prevent this from happening again. And sadly, I, you know, having known her well, she really struggled. with her mental health, as so many of them do. That's why there's such a high suicide rate among these, victims. of sexual assault and domestic violence, and specifically the Epstein victims.

Now, Courtney Wilde, she was, she was the the. the victim behind the Crime Victims Rights Act, behind, proving that the in the sweetheart deal, that the crime victims rights. were violated and she saw for over a decade from prison. By the way, to to do this. The irony is that she ends up in a Florida prison and Epstein is in a jail,

and she ends up in a Florida prison for, like, shoplifting. But she was just she was furious. She was enraged the way it started with her. I mean, she was 12 years old. She had braces on her teeth. She ends up at Epstein's house through the pyramid scheme at the high school, you know, she then realizes for $200 she could bring in her friends. She brings her best friends in there, and she gets another $200 for every friend. She comes. from a poor family on the other side of the intercoastal on Palm Beach and,

you know, and a trailer. And and she has such low self-esteem going around it at the top level. But there was also deputies below her, like Sara, Kellen and a few others. Nadia Martin Kovat I mean, it was a pyramid. You it was not. I mean, Glenn was at the top, but there were others as well. And this was a pyramid within the pyramid and they were all just little girls. And so for and actually, Courtney said, like, you know, she would. she would be envious when she couldn't go to the island with the other girls. And she would, you know, she felt like she was being rejected.

And when and when the police came to her, when they were working on the case, she she thought she went to Epstein. She goes, I don't know what I did. I did something wrong. She saw herself as a child prostitute and I've seen said, don't worry, I'll take care of it. Here's my lawyer. So then she goes to meet with Epstein's lawyer, and when they met at a bar, I mean, she's like 16 or 17 or. She was young. He made her feel like a prostitute, and she just felt this ickiness about it, and she decided, I'm not doing anything.

I'm going to leave us alone. But Epstein gave a lot of these girls, these underage girls lawyers, so that they wouldn't speak. And so a lot of them rely on Epstein's lawyers. And some of them said he's awesome, like he's amazing. I mean, that's a psychological grooming that is really hard to understand. And the thing that broke through for for Courtney, which made her realize. that she's a human being that deserved more than that was reading. So the feds were trying to reach her. This this great prosecutor, Marie Filipina, who ended up actually.

dropping the case sadly, from pressure, political pressure. But. she really was trying to reach Courtney. And Courtney was just like running away, being like, I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want have anything to do with this. And that's the problem. Jane Doe's don't want to talk. That's generally how it works. That's why they go by Jane Doe's. And the way that they thought maybe they could get her to talk. was by just dropping off files, depositions of other victims. And so.

So they show they would show them evidence from other victims. Yeah. Like unnamed Joes. They dropped off some testimony at her house, and she just been resisting them, running away from them, thinking that they're coming for her, not Jeffrey Epstein for her, because she was the one that did something wrong. And so she starts reading it, and she. recognizes the story because it's the story of her best friend. And she starts to cry, and she sobs. as she realizes I'm a victim, like I must.

I have been victimized and even if I think I'm worth nothing, even if I think I'm. the bottom of a, you know, bottom of a shoe, like a piece of gum, these girls, these other victims, they deserve someone fighting for them. And so, so many. This is what I've always found when I, when I work with these victims. and I and I interview. them, is so few of them actually believe it's ever been about them. It's really about other people because their self-esteem is. so destroyed by what they've been through. And so the only thing that keeps them like that, that really drives them.

often isn't about fighting for themselves, is about fighting for the others. And that's why they call themselves like survivor sisters. And they feel like because they're there's they become so depleted, they become dehumanized that it's hard for them to even realize that, like they deserve to be protected by the justice system. They it's hard for them to believe that they deserve justice. But then they're like, you know what? I may not deserve it. because I'm the scum of the earth, because Jeffrey Epstein used my body.

and I'm this and that, but these other girls didn't deserve it. And so that's why I'm going to fight. It's very rare that I hear girls saying, this is for me, this is for me. They always and they always look at the others and I get it. It's just like the it's the grooming is so intense. And especially when it happens at young, it's really hard to break that mold. I mean, girls testify in Jeffrey's awesome. He's amazing. It's like. they thought he was a benefactor.

So as we've said, Todd Blanch, the deputy AG, is going to talk to Glenn Maxwell. There's now, a real cross. There's a real, interest from both parties. in keeping this story under the spotlight. What to the women who were trafficked by Glenn and Jeffrey Epstein. Think about this now. What do they think of you? Talk to any of them about Glenn now being,

you know, being center of attention again? They feel revictimized by it. I mean, I spoke to Maria Farmer, who was assaulted by her, and she said that she feels revictimized by the government again, the down Bongino, Pam Bonds number two, has said repeatedly, that he doesn't want to do that. Do you think that's true? I don't think putting out the grand jury files or revictimized them some, maybe.

And I'm sure some have concerns where I think would. revictimized them is a leniency deal for Glenn Maxwell. Clemency a pardon? The idea that her word matters more than them, that would revictimized them. Some of them are really happy to see the story out there, and to see it. plaguing the the powers that be. I know that. I mean, the victims we text all day long. The survivors, as you know, we're constantly texting and, you know, they're happy to see that you and I are talking.

right now, and they're happy to see that their story stays, that their story continues and that we're focusing on them. But if the government takes a wrong turn on this and suddenly turns. Glenn into a martyr gives her a deal, I just think they're going to be furious. I mean, they were already furious. It's. They haven't gotten any justice in this case. Okay, well, it's a very interesting story.

It's clearly caused enormous panic in the white House. You can see no one understanding how to push the narrative along, which is something that traditional elite they've been very skilled at. Tara, we know that you'll be following this story. You're talking to the women at the heart of it. Please keep us informed and please come back and tell us more. As the story develops and who knows what happens to Glenn Maxwell. But she couldn't have anticipated this. I think she's probably feeling like she's very lucky right now. And that's an unfortunate thing.

Who knows what Todd. Blanche is going to be discussing with Glenn Maxwell this week? But the one thing is really clear. Even if you're not a conspiracy theorist, and I'm really not, it's impossible not to think there's some kind of conspiracy going on here. I mean, the opacity is extraordinary, and what's clear is that Jeffrey. Epstein continues to haunt the president from beyond the grave. Regardless of whether or not you're a conspiracy theorist.

Don't forget. to share this episode with your friends and even people you don't like. Hell, just send it to your entire contacts book. And don't forget to leave us a comment. We read them. We love them. I try and answer as many as we can and don't forget to be a beast. This podcast was produced. by Devin Roger Reno, Anna Von Ersan, and edited by Jesse Millwood.