Trump’s Not In Charge. This Is Who Really Is. | The Daily Beast Podcast

Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm. Joanna Kohl's. I'm the chief content. officer and I wanted to start by. thanking you for the incredible. engagement we got last week after. Michael Wolf appeared on the podcast on. YouTube. We had over 3,000 of you write. in talking largely about Trump craving. attention and that really being his. motivating factor and over half a. million of you watched it. So today. we're talking to David Rothkco, one of.

the Daily Beast contributors, who wrote. an excellent piece this week, arguing. that the first four months of Donald. Trump's second administration, have seen. the country, America, drop significantly. in the international rankings and Trump. himself, having gone from leader of the. free world, uh has severely dropped down. the rankings of the world's most. important people. And when David speaks. or writes, we listen because he's the. former editor of Foreign Policy. magazine. He was a senior official in.

the Clinton administration. And his. concern and anxiety about Trump and his. foreign policy is off the charts uh in. terms of what this means for America and. what it means for America in the world. So, David, can we I have so many. questions, but I guess the first one is. uh I want to talk to you about Trump no. longer bothering really with his. intelligence briefings. He's done 12.

since he started and he's down to two a. month, whereas even President Biden. managed to a week. Some presidents love. this kind of stuff. Bill Clinton, Barack. Obama, they like to immerse themselves. um in in in these briefings um and saw. them as an important part of their daily. intake and doing their jobs. Trump is. the antithesis of that. He always has. been. In fact, you know, they dumbed. down intelligence briefings. They put. more pictures and diagrams in them.

because he didn't really like words. uh. you know which is you know kind of but I. can't imagine what what are the graphics. for you know increased tension in the. Middle East or what are the graphics for. Russia and Ukraine? What do they look. like? Well, I mean listen to Trump when. he was talking about bombings in in. Ukraine uh by the Russians. He was. describing pictures he was shown in his. intelligence briefings. Right. I mean.

that's you know that's kind of uh that's. kind of the way he he thinks. Um but as. you say story is he's only been to 14. such briefings. Um you know in this in. this second administration and as I as I. wrote for you a couple couple of I guess. two weeks ago you know part of the. reason Mike Waltz got fired was that. Mike Waltz thought he was being hired to. give advice. you know, he's a national. security advisor. Trump doesn't want.

advice. Trump thinks he knows. everything. He he sees facts as a. distraction from his impulses and his. beliefs. Um, and so, uh, you know, he. the Trump is in the middle of an. experiment and not actually having a. national security council, right? Marco. Rubio is doing both jobs. And there's. some talk among people in the White. House that if this goes well for a few. months, Trump might just say, "Let's get. rid of the NSC," which has been a thing.

since 1947, has been central to the. support of every president since. Kennedy. Um, and has grown over the. years in the past 20 25 years to being. three or 400 people who have been. absolutely essential to how every. president conducts their foreign policy. But it doesn't matter to Trump because. he views all foreign policy as an. interaction between him and some other. world leader. So he Yeah. All right. He.

set off to the Middle East saying that. he was going to do some deals. Your. column for us this week, which was very. good, was about how he thinks he's the. most important man in the world, but to. your point about him actually not really. having a foreign policy. As a result, he. sunk down the the rankings of the most. important people in the world. So, can. you talk a little bit about this week's. trip and about where he fits now against.

the leaders of Russia and China and the. Middle East and then I want to know what. they're all saying about him behind his. back. Well, let's break it down into. component parts. There are certain. things that made the president of the. United States the most powerful man in. the world. One of them was uh that the. US was seen as a leader and it was seen. as trusted. US is no longer seen as a. leader. It is no longer trusted. Another. was that the US had this big network of.

alliances around the world. Trump is. blowing up those alliances. So those are. sources of power and those have been. undermined. Uh we've had some tests of. Trump's um uh power and influence over. the course of the past four months. uh. for example he launched a bunch of. tariffs on countries and particularly. hard on China and the Chinese later said. okay bring it you know I I you know we. we have 1.4 billion people we have a big.

internal market the world wants to do. business with us and by the way we're. the number two purchaser of US Treasury. bonds and um we have a lot of rare earth. metals you you want to not do business. with us and Trump very quickly had. people in his administration going, "Uh, you got to back off of this." And the. markets said, "You got to back off of. this." And that standoff, she won. Trump. lost. Clearly, she is the most powerful. man in the world right now. It's not. Trump. Trump is in a sense playing the.

arsonist fireman, isn't he? He He. creates this phony war over tariffs. Uh, and here it seems to have played out. reasonably well because people have. forgotten somehow that he actually. started this phony war. How is it being. interpreted by Shei and by China? It's being interpreted as a phony war. They know they didn't provoke this. Um, and they also, I believe, don't think. Trump has the cards. Uh, you know, Trump.

came and said, "Well, I've got all the. cards. You don't." Uh but you know, they. kind of know this law of poker, you. know, that that if if if somebody else. if if somebody thinks everybody else. around the table has got a weaker hand. than them, they're probably the one with. the weakest hand. He he he just doesn't. um uh have uh the tools to or the. leverage over China to achieve what he. wanted to achieve. And they know it. But.

Trump's got no coherent theory of this. because first of all, his theory of. tariffs is creating jobs and and and so. forth is completely wrong, right? So it. can't be coherent. It doesn't make sense. economically. Uh uh but he just wants. wins. Trump is all just about how does. it make him look. So he looks tough when. he puts in the tariffs and he looks good. when he comes up with a solution and he. doesn't care what justifies the. solution. The Chinese know they did this. with him once before. remember there was.

a standoff before and they said well. okay we'll buy a couple hundred billion. dollars of your products and he's like. yay hey everybody they're going to buy a. couple hundred billion dollars of our. product did they ever do it no and and. and and you want to know something he is. but he's a scam artist you know and so. what he is interested in he knows that. he's going to be caught sooner or later. because that's happened throughout his. life five bankruptcies you know whatever. has happened in the women in his and. every he's always doing a scam, right? And he knows he's going to get caught.

So the thing for Trump is what is my. escape plan? How do I get out of this? And how do I profit from it? Is his. escape plan to run for a third term? Cuz. he keeps floating. It's a little bit. like the birthright citizenship thing. You know, this plane, it's in the. constitution. He can't do it. Two, he's. 78. He's going to be 79 next month. He's. way too old to run for the president. He. said he's not going to run for the. presidency again. He's not going to run. for the presidency again. If you were.

worried about Trump was staying in. office, that's not the thing to worry. about. The thing to worry about is that. the puppet masters, the guys behind. Trump who are dictating the policies, Musk and Teal and Zuckerberg and Bezos. and the Federalist Society and all the. dark money people, they're going to be. there. They're not going away. They're. going to pick candidates that advance. their agenda. They're the ones that have. got us into this mess over the past 40. years and they're, you know, going to. continue to be a force in the US life.

So, it's dangerous to messmeriz on Trump. when the real problem is something, not. that he's not a problem, but the real. problem is something else. We see Trump. donors writing things in the bills that. are going on now, you know, like there. will be no regulation of AI or whatever. that makes Elon Musk or Peter Teal happy. or we're going to build a golden dome to. protect America. Who's going to get the. contract? Elon Musk and Peter Teal. Those people are more important. And so.

if you go and you make a list, not only. is US president not the number one or. the number two person, he's he's he's. not in the top 25. And I haven't even. gotten to the fact that he used to be. the most important person in America, but you got to give the Pope a shot at. that now cuz he's an American. And and. and you know, there's a billion people. that follow him. But he's going to be. super influential on a few issues like. immigration, refugees, the environment,

so forth, where even though he's a. conservative man, he's the head of the. church, he he's got positions that are. contrary to Trump's, and has been. willing to call out Trump, call out. Vance. And so there's this big long. list, and every day we're watching Trump. bump down a couple of places on it. Well, the other thing that the American. president has traditionally been too is. the the sort of head of the western. belief in democracy, right, which he no.

longer seems to believe in. He's cozying. up to Putin. What does it say for global. democracy too that he's adopting this. position? It's bad news. You know, the president. of the United States was seen as the. principal champion of. democracy. He clearly isn't. you know, when he's got his most powerful aid, Steven Miller, saying we're going to. suspend habius corpus, which is kind of. the foundation of uh common law, the.

foundation of law in the United States. That's worrisome when he's seeking to. undermine elections, running again, which is. unconstitutional, or eliminating. birthright citizenship, which is. unconstitutional, impeaching judges. that, you know, don't agree with him, uh, which is contrary to the separation. of powers. All those things say this guy. is not only not the champion of. democracy, he's not a fan of democracy. He doesn't particularly like it. And so.

he gets to go around with Putin or Kim. Jong-un or kings or potentates around. the world and he likes them because they. have the same view he does which is why. do I have to care about the little. people? So what's your analysis of his. trip to the Middle East? He said he went. because he wanted to make deals. He's. come back with a deal for 28 Boeing. planes. He's managed to score himself a. free plane from Qatar. What's your. analysis of that trip? We've got to be. fair when he does things that are.

positive. We should acknowledge when. they are positive things. This trip was. overshadowed by this cutter plane. fiasco. Um uh which you know now both. Democrats and Republicans are decrying. it because it's corrupt and because it's. a security um uh threat and because the. plane to to retrofit it'll cost a. billion dollars. And now there all the. stories that of course the Qataris have. been trying to get rid of this plane for.

a while. Um and I mean even Laura Loomer. is advising against it. Every again. people on the hill who are not known for. their courage like Susan Collins they're. advising against it. Um but so that. overshadowed the the trip. But if you. look at it from a foreign policy. perspective there were some big shifts. He sat down with the leader of Syria. He. said we would lift sanctions on Syria. Now, this guy was an al-Qaeda guy. He. was on our terrorist list for a long.

time. But does Syria, you know, does. this make some sense to start, you know, give it a give it a new start and try to. help the people of Syria? Probably does. He said, I'm going to end this war. against the Houthis. Um, and you know, was he covering up for the fact that we. were getting nowhere and it was costing. a billion dollars a month? Yeah. But on. the other hand, ending it, it's probably. better than not. He's pushing for uh a. deal with Iran. Uh did he blow up the.

prior deal? EA did. Should he have? No. But on the other hand, it's better that. he's pushing for it than listening to BB. Netanyahu who wants to go to war with. Iran. Uh he's he's pushing back on BB. Netanyahu saying you can't dictate what. our policies are in the region. Uh, you. know, strangely, we've reached the point. where America's right-wing maniacs are. uncomfortable with Israel's right-wing. maniacs. You know, Israel's too far. right for our right. Um, and uh, you.

know, so that's a positive. Well, even. though Trump's views on Gaza and. creating a free zone or building casinos. or whatever are crazy and giving the. Israelis more weapons to kill. Palestinians is horrible. Um, and even. on AI, you know, the Biden. administration's view on AI was, let's. keep it all to ourselves. Let's restrict. its being shared in the world because we. don't want the Chinese to get a hold of. it. Well, in the course of the past few. years, the Chinese have caught up a lot.

and um and Trump is sort of changing. policy and saying, "What we'd rather do. is get people using our systems and. buying our systems and being engaged. with us because it benefits us. economically, but it also gives us a leg. up on the Chinese in terms of the global. competition." I think that's probably. net net a positive change. So if you. look at the trip, you know, once again, there's one part of the world where. Trump, even though he's causing problems.

everywhere else, does a little better. Last time around, it was the Abraham. Accords. This time around, uh it's this. uh region. If I may, I would like to say. one last thing and that is that I am the. CEO of a company that does a lot of. podcasts and in addition to my primary. job of writing for you Joanna and uh uh. and two of the podcasts are sponsored by. the Embassy of the United Arab Emirates. in the United States. And so as a result.

of that, because that's the way the law. goes, we register under Farah for as as. taking money from them. And we don't. lobby. We don't do any of that. Nobody. has ever sought to influence our. content. They've never sought to. influence anything I write. But whenever. I talk about this region, okay, declare. it. Yeah. I want to be transparent. Okay. Mark. Okay. So, David Doug. McMillan, the CEO of Walmart this week. came out and said. that given the tariffs, they were going.

to have to pass on some of the price. hike to customers. A lot of that is. going to impact Trump's base, especially. in states in the middle of the. country. How is this helpful to. him? It's not. I mean, it's it's I mean, you know, Trump is waging a one-man war. to against Trump's base. You know, he's. he's raising prices and a bunch of.

people who thought he was going to lower. prices, that's going to lose base. um. you know he he had this sort of surge in. support under Latinos who thought well. he's just going to deport the bad ones. not the good ones. Now he's deporting. everybody or seeking to and violating. the law. So he's alienating. um them. uh you know the the bulk of the. people who benefit from Medicaid live in. red states um or some very substantial. number. Um and uh and and so literally I.

I think 17 million Americans under the. current plan in the Congress would lose. their Medicaid uh coverage. That's going. to alienate a lot of them. Uh people who. thought that, you know, the veterans who. thought, "Oh, Trump's the patriotic. choice are discovering that he's. shutting down VA hospitals and they're. not going to get healthcare. He is. alienating them." There is no Democrat. in the United States doing as much to.

defeat Donald Trump as Donald Trump is. doing. Well, he's his own worst enemy, isn't he? He always has been. I mean, he. wins, he loses, he wins, he loses. What. are the Democrats doing? Oh, fumbling. fumb fumbling around, you know. Um I I. you know I they're pretty weak. Chuck. Schumer doesn't show up on videotape. Hakee Jeff is trying to get his sea. legs. Uh you know, there were a couple. of Democratic governors who everybody. was like, "Oh, they have a lot of. promise." Gavin Newsome is is like.

lurching towards the center in the most. desperate way possible. You and I talked. about this once, but it looks like he's. trying to win back his ex-girlfriend. Kimberly Gilfoil. I mean, it's just I. don't even know. But then by moving. further, right, by cosplaying, by having. all these bright being bloggers and uh. podcast hosts on his podcast, I if I if. he goes home at night and puts on a Don. Jr. mask, I wouldn't be surprised, right? Cuz he is like go I don't know. what's going on in his head. Uh you.

know, poor Gretchen Whitmer, who is a. leading candidate. She got used by Trump. in this little office thing and that's. going to hurt her. um some Democrats. You think Do you think it does hurt her? Cuz she's obviously someone that the. Democrats are talking about as a. potential leader for 2028. You think. that her turning up at his rally and. saying we're all for Michigan hurt her? Yeah. Because I think a lot of people. see Trump as, you know, um uh, you know,

unabated evil and and and I think uh she. was seen as being used, not being strong. on it. JB Pritsker, the governor of. Illinois, has been great, has been. strong. Chris Murphy, senator from. Connecticut, has been great, has been. strong. Obviously, AOC and Bernie Sanders um. have been on the road, been great, have. been strong. Jasmine Crockett has been. great, has been strong. I think we're. going to see a lot of a change in the.

sort of the the changing of the guard in. the Democratic party. Uh and I don't. know that we can predict how it'll go. I. think the midterms will affect that a. lot. But, you know, there are other. subtle things, you know, and this won't. be popular among some Democrats. But, you know, the air transportation system. in the United States is a freaking. disaster. And every day some new. horrible thing is happening. Pete. Budajed, who is an excellent candidate. and articulate person. He's a he's a. really good guy. He's got that's on him. You know, it's also on him, right? I see.

this as a moment of real change and uh I. see that as a good thing because we're. at a moment where the country could use. a change of leadership and the country. could use actually a generational change. of leadership. One of the things that's. visible is Trump is not the same guy he. was in the first term. He's slow looks. older. He's slowed down. He doesn't have. Melania with him anymore. Well, I don't know whether that's a plus. or a minus, but but he he doesn't uh but.

you know, he just he doesn't seem to get. things. He's not as quick on the uptake. Uh he's 78. He's going to be 79 when he. throws that parade for himself. Um you. know, the problem is he still looks he. looks robust and energetic compared to. his predecessor, obviously Joe Biden. You start your column by imagining what. it would have been like if Kla Harris. had won the election and Joe Biden had. said in 2022 I'm looking for a. successor. That's because there's this.

book out original sin by Jake Tapper and. Alex Thompson and the there's. conversation about it. It really. irritates Democrats. This is coming up. and why are you picking an old Joe and. Trump is trying to destroy democracy. Let's focus on that and I'm all for. that. Right. Trump is trying to focus. destroy democracy. The problem uh with. not acknowledging the with what Biden. did wrong and Biden should have two. years before said I'm not running should. have stuck to I'll be a transitional. president as he said is that it leads.

Democrats to draw some of the wrong. conclusions uh about where we stand. politically and that's dangerous right. so what you mean it it causes the wrong. conclusions well people say oh well a. woman can't wit well Kamla Harris had a. 100 days to run for president. Nobody's. ever had that few. She very nearly won. Hillary Clinton got the the majority of. the popular vote. I could make a very. strong case that they were both very. strong candidates and um uh that they.

proved that a woman can win. And well, no one ever says white men can't win. And yet every single election there's. always been a white man up until the. Hillary election where there's been a. white man that lost. Right. Exa. Well, that's exactly right. And the other. thing is you've got a lot of Democrats. going, "Well, you have to move to the. center. Let's be more like Trump. Let's. do that Gavin Newsome, Don Jr. face mask. thing." And and the reality is um that's. not the the message. And I don't think.

it's right. Uh if you take what we. typically think of as a progressive. message, what is that? fairer taxes, rich pay more taxes, health care for. everybody, take care of the environment, reasonable gun control, um, uh, education reform, give more people a. chance to be educated, um, etc., etc., if you, that's progressive, right? That's sounds progressive. It sounds. like AOC. Well, it should just be it. just feels normal. It is normal. That's.

what other democ democratic countries. have. But in this country, 3/4 of the. people support those things. In some. cases, like gun reform, 90% support them. So that is the. mainstream. And the only people who. don't seem to understand that are the. political media. Um, AOC is at the center. of American political belief on the. major issues of the day to move, you.

know, to to these these smart genius. consultants, David Axelrod and James. Carville and, you know, a lot of the. people you see on TV who say, "Oh, well, the. Democrats really need to get more like. Trump." really the answer is to. compromise. Compromising with a fascist. produces fascism light. It's a bad. choice. And if you think um that you.

know the Democrats lost in 2024 because. they were, you know, uh not far center. enough and and you don't understand it's. because of a bad decision that Joe Biden. made. You're going to draw the wrong. conclusions. You may lose again. What. the country needs is Democrats who own. who they are, who are proud of. supporting things that are common sense, uh, who will have some strength, courage. of their convictions, uh, and then we'll.

do one other thing that Democrats are a. little loathed to do, and that is. embrace the power they seek. You know, Democrats are like, "Yeah, I'm oh, embarrassed. I don't want. to do this. I don't want to I, you know, Merrick Garland. Oh, I don't I don't. want to push too hard on on Trump. And. then we end up with what? Trump again, even though it's a crazy thing. Well, well, well. All right, David.

That's enough for a Sunday. That's. enough for a Sunday. Thank you very. much. I love reading your columns and I. love talking to you and it's a strange. world we're in right now. It's a strange. world, but we're relying on you to. explain it to us and to come back and. talk to us again. Nobody is a better. guide for a strange world than you as. the editor of the Daily Beast. Well, when we have writers like you, David, we will uh we will be fine. But. we can we can collectively we can handle.

strange. David, thank you so much for. joining us. And if you have been. listening, thank you. And feel free to. go on to our YouTube channel and add a. comment. We really do read them all as. do the contributors and it's very. helpful to know what you're thinking out. there. We'll be back on Tuesday with a. new podcast and many more political. insights into this crazy crazy time. So. until then, be beast. This podcast was. produced by Devon Rogerino, Anna von. Ersen, and it was edited by Lindseay.

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