Trump's Epstein Scandal Can't Stop Won't Stop | The Daily Beast Podcast

Michael, if it turns out that Ghislaine Maxwell does have compromising. material on the president, what is the MAGA base reaction? Violent? But that's going to be a major issue. You. I'm John Nichols, chief content officer of the Daily Beast. You are, I hope, driving your car, working out at the gym, or possibly like the president playing golf to this Daily Beast podcast. If you've enjoyed it, share it with a friend, share it with your entire contacts book.

Share it with your own little black book. Just like Jeffrey Epstein. But leave us a comment on YouTube so we know what you think, and we can respond to what you think. And we do. Listen to your comments and and read your comments. And actually, I wanted to address one which is, a very good one that people, several people called us out for talking about. Jeffrey Epstein's victims as young women or under age women, when, of course, they were schoolgirls. They were schoolgirls. So good call out. We did it largely just to avoid repeating the same word.

But very good call out. There is a big difference between young women and schoolgirls. And of course, an extraordinary week. I know I overused the word extraordinary, and how can one not in the era. of Donald Trump, his new norms are broken every single day. But this week we see the number two in the Justice Department. Todd Blanch, Donald Trump's former personal lawyer. Hot footing it down to the Tallahassee court, where he talks to Glenn Maxwell,

sentenced for 20 years for sex trafficking. Young girls, to talk to her about what she knows. as this story will not leave the president alone. His relationship, of course, with Jeffrey Epstein. Who better to get into it with, of course, than Michael Wolff, the author of four. books on Donald Trump and importantly, also two books on Rupert Murdoch. Because this week Rupert Murdoch is a player because his newspaper,

The Wall Street. Journal, has been breaking story after story in this remarkable scandal. So no more time to waste, Michael. Let's get into it. Okay. Michael Wolff, very good to be back with you, sir. You are the man. For the moment. You've been everywhere. I felt slightly cheated on while I was away because I kept. seeing you and all that. But that's what happens when you go away. Well I'm back, I'm back.

So no more, please. But, you know, what are you hearing? What are you hearing from your sources in LA? I mean, it's it's it's full panic. I think people are genuinely inside the white House. Genuine, concerned about where we are. I mean, and I don't think and I think they're confused about it, because they don't know. It's not as if Donald Trump sits down and says, this is our exposure. He says he just denies, which is actually. they call me to find out what I know.

And, so. Have any of them read the Epstein files? I mean, the documents that Pam Bondi said told the president that he was it? I don't think so. I mean, I'm not I'm not actually sure that that, files in that coherent sense actually exist. And, and I think there, there are, there are probably a few defined what this is, it's, it's it's pretty disparate.

It's so it's it's intelligence. It's Epstein intelligence. And he crops up all the time in it because as you keep pointing out, he was an incredibly close friend of Jeffrey Epstein's for many, many years. Yeah. And I think it's this idea of the Epstein files is almost a buy. It may be kind of metaphoric. There are these things that the government knows about, about Jeffrey Epstein. Is it gathered in one place?

Is it accessible? Is it I mean, for one, one of the the things there are one of the things. that would be particularly revelatory are the emails. Is that included? Well, we don't we don't know. Wait a minute. Which emails? What? The email. You know, they they go into Epstein's house, they take his computer and his hard drives. Well, he has emails on there. Theoretically. Yeah. I mean, how far back to your emails go? I'm sure that, you know, for all this.

Trump famously doesn't email, so he wouldn't be expected to have emails from the president on mine. No, but he's going to have emails from Steve Bannon on there, for instance, and many others. And he's going to be on, Epstein is going to be on the emails talking to other people and, and Epstein spent a lot of time. talking to people around Donald Trump. I mean, so just as a, for instance, Tom barrack,

who was, a very close friend of Trump's, a senior adviser, senior most adviser. during the first administration who is now the ambassador. I shouldn't have this center at my fingertips, but I do not. the ambassador to somewhere. And, and who was actually indicted at one point on the get up. As you speak, Indicted for, for,

for various things having to do with his involvement with Trump. But he a very close friend of of, of Jeffrey Epstein's I knew Jeffrey Epstein. introduced the me to Tom barrack during the first administration. But anyway, he would I mean, that's just one example. of of the kinds of people, a the kind of person Epstein. would have been talking about, about Trump on a pretty constant basis.

Okay. So we know that inside the white House, they're completely panicked. about how to handle this. It's a totally riled up the MAGA base. It's not going away. The attempt to deflect by creating, by using Tulsi Gabbard to talk about Barack Obama hasn't worked. We're recording this on Friday lunchtime. Earlier this morning, the president, on his way to Scotland, said he had. the power to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell, but he hadn't yet thought about it.

But look, she's only to interrupt. And just hold on. Yes. He also said that people should look at the former president. of of Harvard, Larry Summers, and other big private equity. people who'd lived with Jeffrey Epstein, which Donald Trump certainly didn't do. Well, I don't know, I think I think it's more, Trump and Epstein lived well, spent. significantly more time in proximity. I mean, you know, so that's one of the things and.

That's that they didn't live together. I was meaning Trump said that Trump said he didn't live there. Yes. But, well, in in the general, in the general sense, I mean, this is where, where MAGA has been hoisted too, which is to say, yeah, there are a lot of people, I mean, a. formidable and eye popping list of people. who were around Jeffrey Epstein. Absolutely. And this is absolutely true. But that hardly negates the fact that the person.

who spent the most time with Jeffrey Epstein, I mean, I more than a decade of constant. contact was Donald Trump. So, you know, so this is this is, I mean, that that deflection. Look over there. You know, Larry Summers, is is going to be it's going to be difficult. And I think it just kind of comes brings it actually back. to the fact that, yes, these guys spent time with them.

And a lot of these people have been. have their reputations and careers have been damaged because of it. But no one has spent as much time as Trump. You know, I was I was talking to someone, a white House person last, last night. And again, you know, very, very worried. And it was a telling thing that they said this person said said, you know, there's always been a kind of, you know, fear of, you know, Trump's what he called Trump's bad boy years.

But and but then he said, but. but now the fear is that those bad boy years may have been far better. And then then we really appreciate. and that they may be too bad. for the MAGA people to tolerate. So that's that's absolutely fascinating. I mean, not unlike actually P Diddy with his Bad Boy records. And of course, the freak offs.

turned out to be much more, violent than anybody expected. So I've been dying to talk to you about the birthday letter. that Donald Trump apparently wrote for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday, and this idea that they shared a wonderful secret. What do you think he's referring to? I think that he is referring to the to the girlfriend. that they shared at that point in time, 92, 93.

So there was a, a woman, and as far as I know, she's not underage. But who, who they, who they literally shared who literally. went back and forth between between these two guys. And she went. Back and forth in the same bed with the two of them. It was a threesome or she was dating. I sent them separately. I, I don't, I don't know the, the, the mechanics.

I, I know that during the same period and they openly, this wasn't hidden from either one. They openly shared this particular, woman that she was. went out with both of them at the same time. And two there, and they both understood this. So the Wall Street Journal has been doing some superb reporting on this. And obviously Trump is now suing the Wall Street Journal. and taking on his old friend Rupert Murdoch at what is.

What are your thoughts about. Well, you know, I think within the white House. I mean, I know some background here within the white House. They regard this and, and, you know, and, you know, briefly to to recap, this is the Wall Street Journal published a letter that Donald. Trump, wrote to, Jeffrey Epstein on the occasion of his 50th birthday. Birthday in 1993. Trump by the way, denies that he ever saw this letter.

And it certainly was not his letter, although his, it is the. signature seems pretty clearly to be Donald Trump and. and and it would have been completely in-character. for him to write his best friend this birthday greeting. At any rate. And this was solicit from Donald Trump. From there were many others who wrote letters to. but solicited from Donald Trump by Glenn Maxwell. Yes, as Trump himself was pointed at Bill Clinton also writes the letter.

The view within the white House is that this letter came to. the Wall Street Journal, the the Maxwell side, the Maxwell family, the Maxwell family, lawyers. Glenn Maxwell's brother has been very out front. in defending his, his his sister, who was in jail for 20 years. So this is Ian Maxwell, who's a well-known figure in London City. Exactly. So they they inside the white House, they believe this came from from the Maxwell side.

And they interpret this as a, quote, shot across the bow, which is to say that, Glenn Maxwell, who at this point in her. life has nothing to lose and I am sure. is seeking leverage in any way she possibly can, that this is an an announcement, a threat, and an announcement. that she has damaging material on Donald Trump, hence a full scale panic.

The number two in the Justice Department, Todd Blanch, immediately. scheduled a meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. Which is totally exceptional. That's the number two in the Justice Department. Would schedule a meeting with a convicted felon, one convicted for, no less for sexual offenses, But for sex trafficking girls, a girl, underage girls. Yes. And,

but anyway, so he he, he he rushed down to meet with her again. This is extraordinary. The number two. Let's just remind people that Todd Blanch was Donald. Trump's lawyer during the Stormy Daniels trial. Yes. He, he. Donald, he was Donald Trump's personal lawyer. He represents Donald Trump. And. Trump's had lots of lawyers. It seems doubly ironic because he's always firing them that. this would be the lawyer from the Stormy Daniels trial, which Donald Trump lost.

Yeah. Well, Donald Trump's relationship with his, with his lawyers is a is a. is always a Trump subtext. And, you know, and I did a lot of reporting on this. and this is in my, my book all or Nothing. The relationship he has with these, especially with these lawyers. who were with him during during this stormy, Stormy Daniels trial. But during all of his, his legal problems during the campaign,

and this this included includes, a meal, Beau for Beauvais, who's now, who's now, a significant, holds a significant position in the Justice Department. and who is, now up. for a seat on on a significant, appeals court, and many people say is being prepped to go on to the Supreme Court. Elina Harbor in New Jersey. And she's she's the federal prosecutor there.

Who who, who can't get confirmed by the Senate. Who a. who a in an appellate court. there has, has said has refused to appoint, to extend her temporary appointment and. and and appointed someone else who the Justice Department has now fired.

I. Yeah. But at any rate, one of the things that goes on with these, these lawyers, these are his personal lawyers, and he has crucified them all. I can't describe his treatment of these people. And effectively, what he does is he breaks them. I mean, they can't ever have had a, a, a, a professional instance in their life in which is so debasing.

And I think what happens is that having done this, then they understand, they, they're broken. They understand that they, that they have only one role in life, and that is to serve Donald Trump. So describe the debasing behavior that that he does. You do write about how he screams that certainly at Elina Harbor. It's screaming, you know, in vilifying them, you're a piece of shit. You're,

I never saw somebody so, so incompetent. There's, one one of one of the lawyers, you know, he he he just went after and went after went. after and in the middle of the they they come out of the. they come out of the courtroom and the guy has like a red spot on his head. You know, whether it's a dermatological issue. or whether it's just anxiety. Flare up of anxiety, Physical.

Manifestation. And Trump looks I says, what's that? Right. And he says, that's not a good look. Get rid of it. You know, there's. there's there's one guy, you know, in the, you know, in the break room, you know, there's only one bathroom, there's a courthouse. This is a criminal court. There's only one bathroom in there. And, and 111 of these lawyers, God knows, you might say. What was it? What was he thinking?

Uses the bathroom. He he's he's banished. Get him out of here. He's. Use my bathroom. Get him out of here. So it's that. It's just everybody is treated. He doesn't remember any any of their names. You lawyer. And then again. And it is. It is, I mean, there's they're there was one guy, and he goes on at, like, you can't talk. What's the problem with you? You can't talk.

Why can't you talk? You know what you sound like. And then he he makes funny. Does that that that that that imitation. that makes everybody like, you know, he goes like, oh, okay. So it's a horrible person to work for. Nevertheless, if you're Todd Blanch, you can't ever have thought. that you would end up as the number two in the justice. Right. And so you understand your job is you remember remember, the Justice Department. of the United States has always been regarded well, at least in the modern era.

Post-Watergate has protected its independence. Yes, we are part of the executive branch. But no, we are not under the direct control of the executive branch. And Trump has said, basically, that's bullshit. You're under my direct control. In fact, you are my lawyers. You do not represent the United States of America. You represent me. So and. that's obviously true for Pam, Pam Bondi, the attorney general.

who doesn't know, you know, caught in the headlights on this, on this thing. Yes. We're going to release the Epstein files. Oh, no. No, sorry, sorry, sorry. No, no, we're not releasing them. So it's a, you again. We're we're back to one of one of those those moments, which is a fundamental. change in the nature of the government and how the government works. And right now it is full out.

We are there to protect Donald Trump. We are. And this is the interesting thing, you know, the justice Department, at various points, Nixon especially, has tried to use. the Justice Department to further a cover up. And that was that was really rather precisely what what. Watergate was, was about. Nixon. Did. The cover up. Nixon did that in the dead of night. This is not in the dead of night. This is incredibly out front. There's no pretense otherwise, protect the president.

So what do you think Donald Trump thought or said. when Pam Bondi told him he was in the Epstein so-called files? Well, I'm not sure what what what was told. And I rather think that this is that they are now putting this out. there as let's, let's, let's test the waters. Let's do a little a little, a little preparation of the ground here. Because this could be, this could be pretty bad.

Or conversely, she told them, he said, like what? And and she and I can't imagine this conversation. because you cannot bring Donald Trump bad news. You cannot. But let's assume that she might have said something. and he said, oh, yeah, shut this down. Forget about. It. Well, and Elon then immediately put it out. Yeah. No. Precisely.

So I mean, I don't see how you can you can shut this down. This is this is out there. And that's what he's dealing with right now. This is the thing. And let's let's remember this has always been on the, you know, a storm on the horizon. Steve Bannon meets Jeffrey Epstein for the first time. And the first thing he says is, you were the only person. I was afraid of during the campaign, the 2016 campaign. Right? I go to Mar-A-Lago to interview Trump.

And, and I, I tell aides that. one of the topics I'd like to discuss is Epstein. They said, if you bring that up, the interview will end there and then, wow. So Todd Blanch flees down to Tallahassee, to the courtroom. to talk to Glenn Maxwell. Do we have any sense of what he said? We know the questioning went on. He's back at it again today. Her lawyer, David Marcus, who is a friend of Todd Blanch,

came out and said that Guillen miraculously answered every question. honestly and didn't plead the fifth in any way. What are your thoughts about what's going on there? I would imagine that she is, she is outlining. what she has on the president of the United States. And, they are evaluating how damaging that is. And evaluating how credible what she has to say is.

So they're negotiating. She is now putting her, her goods on the table and, and, you know, and then they'll have to respond. What are the and and so we go into the cover up territory. What are the inducements they might offer to keep her quiet in some. Right. So she says she's got information that she saw the president with Jeffrey Epstein. Let's just sort of game this out.

She's seen President Trump with Jeffrey Epstein in a compromising position. Let's just say, and she wants either a reduction in her sentence or she wants a full pardon. I'm just sort of fascinated to think about what Todd Blunt has to play with that. Oh, I think I think, I mean, the first is what do you got? Is this damaging? Well, if you're Glenn Maxwell and as you said earlier, she's got nothing to lose.

Why wouldn't you just say you've got the goods? I mean, who's going to know? They're going to say, what evidence do you have? You know, I mean, remember this is this is Donald Trump of Glenn. Maxwell says comes out and says, you know, he did this, he did that. And he and he says, I didn't. This is a lie. Remember? Remember, denial is a very powerful tool for Donald Trump. But does she have things that cannot be denied? I mean. He already he left the courtroom with a big box of files yesterday.

I mean, who knows what was. Who knows who knows what's in that? So said, you know, and remember his level of denial. This letter, the letter that the journal published is, you know, is, is is certainly convincing. Right time, right place. Right. Characters. Well, and it stands to reason that someone would have a copy of it. And plus the journal is publishing at the journal doesn't. publish things that it that it is. that that it doesn't that it hasn't taken a fairly close.

look at and especially understanding that Trump might well come after them. So but even in that case, what did Donald Trump say? Nothing to do with me. I don't see I this wasn't me at all. I don't know where this came from. So therefore they'll look at what, what Garland has. and say, well, you know, we can just deny that and who's who. You're going to believe a convicted felon or the president of the United States, or they're going to look at what she says and says, oh my God, you know,

this is really this is really going to be hard to get out from under. Right. And then but there are pictures. I mean, there's lots of pictures of him with Epstein. We know they were really. Well, we already know that. So that's not that's not not the issue. The issue is what does she have that goes beyond that? Michael, if it turns out that Glenn Maxwell does have compromising material. on the president and top Blanch advises Donald Trump. to give her a pardon or commute her sentence in some way.

What do you think the magazine base? What is the MAGA base reaction? Violent. That's going to be a major issue. It's going to be a major issue. The choice that he will have to make is between. protecting himself, or, and dealing. with the base. Somehow he's got to bring those two together.

He's got to get the base to recognize that that, that without him, there is no MAGA. But, this is a complicated, really complicated trick. Can he pull that off? I'm not. Sure. Where is JD Vance in all this hiding? I mean, I mean, you know, I mean, JD Vance is cannot in for his own political future. Cannot lose the MAGA base, but for his own.

political future, he cannot lose Donald Trump. Go figure. And Mike Johnson, I suddenly saw Mike Johnson. as a potential candidate today when he said, well, we have to let this play out. We need to understand it. These are heinous crimes. I suddenly thought, oh, Mike Johnson is going to run too. Well. I mean, I think everybody's going to run. I mean, this is, you know, there is going to be no Donald Trump. So for the first time in ten years, more than ten years,

it's going to be a wide open Republican opportunity. So everybody, everybody is going to be in. for Rupert Murdoch, who seems, I mean, the Wall Street Journal and conflicts of interest. Alert here. Emma Tucker, who's the executive editor of the Wall Street. Journal, is a close personal friend of mine. She's been doing a stellar job at the Wall Street Journal. But what do you think of of Trump's very aggressive, lawsuit against them?

I mean, he's suing them for libel. They banned them. Well, he says, well, he says he sues everybody. I mean, since he sued the. The New York Times and a number, a number of a number of times, I mean. So needs he's just with ABC and they settle with Paramount. But but but we'll draw a distinction though because it's important. It's important here. This is Rupert. This is Donald Trump's playbook. You sue and and litigation for Donald Trump is not necessarily about. about winning in, in, in in court.

It's about a headline. It's about it's about staking his his virtue moral claims. I am going to sue. I mean, he's sued all his life. That's what that's what he does. The fact that, that he is he is that these lawsuits against media organizations. by Donald Trump are routinely tossed, doesn't make any difference. And, you know, because they have they have two effects. They get the headline. I'm, I'm a victim.

I'm wounded. And they send a chill to other organizations. He's been in the last number of months. He's settled with two major media organizations, ABC and CBS. These were these were specious lawsuits. that would have been dismissed. If, if, if these organizations had pursued them instead, they settled. They settled because, because their, their parent companies had other interests before the government.

They said this was a kind of, you know, let's say it, it was a kind of bribe. And in fact, the money, the settlements, $15 million in one case, $16 million, another case goes to Donald Trump, not to the right government. Government of the of the United States. Now, Rupert Murdoch, who has been doing this for more than 70. years, does not settle these kinds of lawsuits,

especially specious ones that he is going to win. And, and so I would say. the purpose is, is for, as I said, it's. to make a headline and to send a chill to other media organizations. But in Donald Trump's inimitable. fashion, he recognizes a weakness here. And he has been going around saying saying to people, Rupert, who is 94,

is going to die any minute, and his son is a weakling. His son is Lachlan Murdoch, who will take over the, the organization upon. upon his father's death and is, in any interpretation, a weakling. Would Lachlan Murdoch settle with Donald Trump? Yeah, yeah. Probably immediately. So this is a backed by Donald Trump that Rupert Murdoch will die.

before any kind of discovery. Well, it doesn't matter. It's a win win for him anyway. He he gets Tim, gets the headline, gets to send the chill. Even if Rupert Murdoch, you know, many people have anticipated. Rupert Murdoch's death for many years. And yet he goes on and, and he may well go on long enough for this. suit to be dismissed, which would happen in the next number of months, probably. But cream on top if he dies.

Lachlan might well settle in. Donald. Don't collect. Well, we should certainly do another episode on. just on Donald Trump on Rupert Murdoch's relationship. But I just want to revisit one final point before, we eventually meet again very soon, I hope, next week to figure out. what on earth, the conversation has been with Terblanche and Glenn Maxwell, but the Tulsi Gabbard of all this to the sudden creation, or the sort of revisiting of the Russia story and the implicating.

of President Obama and then Obama's. unusually reacting to it? Well, you know, Tulsi Gabbard is a. I mean, he has treated her like like he has treated his his lawyers. I mean, he's he really, he's really pushed her out. She did something that, that that he didn't. he didn't like, she was immediately pushed out. Everybody in the administration in their Iran.

Yes, yes, yes. So she. Said they didn't have the capabilities it is to make, to make nuclear weapons. Exactly that. She immediately had to backtrack on it, remember that, you know. So everybody has told her your toast. You're finished. You know, you might as well just go home. And people have blanked her. I mean, I've heard about this Tulsi guy. Get it? Don't don't don't. Be anywhere near her. Don't get in a photo with her. Sell shares and tell us about. And she's been desperate.

You know, this has been, you know, I mean, Tulsi, Tulsi Gabbard, you know, basically has not been able to get it, get arrested in public life, for many years. And then she's finally, you know, sucked up to the to Trump. I mean, really sucked up, got this job and now, you know, six months, seven months in, it was imperiled. So what did she do? I mean, she's smart enough to know what she had to do. She had to give Trump a headline, even if it was entirely ridiculous.

And she's going to, you know, send Barack Obama to jail. I mean, it doesn't matter. It's all made up. She made it up. She it's a concoction, but it saves her skin. Well, and interestingly, it actually provokes Barack Obama's team. to come out with a statement. and just say, this is ridiculous distraction from actually what's going on. Right? Right. Which is which seems to have killed the story. I mean, sometimes they put out nonsense and it holds up the news.

agenda for a bit, but this one seemed to come and go very quickly. Yeah. No, I mean, it's just, you know, I can just say. We were talking about Iran. What was it, 3 or 4 weeks ago? I just come back from another trip. It was all about Iran. It's just extraordinary how the news cycle moves on. But on this particular story, on the Jeffrey Epstein story, it is stuck on the MAGA base. Will not let it go. The MAGA base will not let it go. Obviously, the.

the mainstream media has picked it up, which is totally, you know, I mean, again, a shock. Where have they been? And I think it is worth. reminding people that this story. of Donald Trump's close relationship. with Jeffrey Epstein and we, The Daily Beast and, and and, and I, got together. a week before the election.

and released tapes which had Jeffrey Epstein saying. very specifically, Donald Trump was his best friend for over a decade. And how did the media respond? Crickets. And, Well, people. can go back and find those stories actually on our website. So, you know, it's it's, you know, it has finally broken through,

I think, and, and the, the media, which has been incredibly confused. about this, about this story, very reluctant, not wanting to deal with it, I think, for a whole variety of. of reasons, which we can at some future point discuss in, in, in detail. because I think it's, it's interesting, but they're forced into it now. I mean, it is it's a, it's, it's, it's front and center. It is the story. And weirdly,

the MAGA baseless conspiracy theory that Jeffrey Epstein was at the center. of a global cabal of elite men on both sides of the aisle, actually, for once, it's a conspiracy story which has a lot of truth in it. Well, all conspiracies, all conspiracy theories. Well, maybe not Pizzagate. I was going. To say Pizzagate. Certainly not. Yeah, but many conspiracy theories have a lot of have an element of truth in them.

But in the in the conspiratorial telling, the emphasis is all wrong. The conclusions are all wrong. And, and I think that, that is also. probably the case in the, in the, in the Epstein story. But it is true that enormous numbers. of influential and powerful people were, gravitated to. Jeffrey Epstein, were attracted to Jeffrey Epstein,

found, found in. Yeah, found his presence really compelling. But again, it is important. to remember which the MAGA people somehow overlooked, that the person. who found him most compelling for the longest period of time, who was his true friend, not just a visitor. Was, Donald J. Trump. With whom he shared a wonderful secret. So, Michael, the minute you find out what Ghislaine Maxwell,

top lunches conversation is about, please come back and enlighten us. And obviously, we'll be watching Donald Trump's. behavior incredibly closely as he plays golf in Scotland. And we will expect you. to come back and interpret what's going on inside Trump's head. I will see you soon. So many questions, not least. What on earth can it be like to be Glenn Maxwell in that jail, trying to figure out what hope is there for you?

And does she, as a lot of. people are saying online, does she actually end up like her mentor. and former lover and partner in crime, Jeffrey Epstein? Well, to stay on top of all developments, don't forget to subscribe to the Daily beast.com, share. this podcast with your friends, share it with your contacts, book, and keep us posted with comments on YouTube. about what you think and what are your conspiracies about this?

What are the questions that you would be asking Michael Wolff? Who really is the author ity on this subject? Barnum don't forget beast. And please join me in applauding our producers of this episode, Devin Roger Reno and Yvonne Ersan and our editor, Jesse Millwood.