Trump Knows He’s Running Out of Time: Author | The Daily Beast Podcast

He's almost acting like a guy that feels like he's running out of time. I mean, like, he's 79 years old. He doesn't really exercise. You know, his diet isn't exactly the model diet. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. And today in the studio, we have none other than the author of retribution. Jonathan Karl, the Washington correspondent for ABC news. This is a fascinating read. And. Well, the man's here.

Let's get into it. We are joined by Jonathan Karl, ABC's Washington bureau chief and the author of God. Help Us, a New Arrival by Michael Wolff. Four books on Donald Trump, including his latest, retribution, which is a gripping read. I will say I called up with this, but big cup of tea, big under my blanket. as the first cold of the winter. crept up on us and I couldn't put it down.

And you start with a conversation that you have on the phone with Donald Trump. when you call him to congratulate him on being the president elect. And then you refer to many conversations you have throughout the book with him. It feels like the two of you are in an abusive relationship. It feels like that with a lot of people with Donald Trump. I mean, look, it's, By the way, I should say one thing. I'm not the Washington bureau chief. I am the chief Washington correspondent. And I want to say sorry to Rick Klein, who was our bureau chief.

Rick Klein, I'm sorry I insulted you. I'm sorry I look, and I would never want that responsibility. That would mean I'd actually have to run, you know, the place. So I, you know, Yeah. I mean. Look, I'm just going to point out that the Daily Beast is so efficient. that we have a Washington bureau chief and chief Washington correspondent in. Saying, first. Wow, we have a smaller team than I. Tell my friends at ABC that I like, you. Know, all right. Since we've started off, this is very frightening. We've already started off. And I've got your title wrong, but but it does feel like you're in an abusive relationship with Trump.

And sometimes he calls you and he loves you and other times. he calls you out in public and tells you you're part of the problem. Yeah. I mean, look, first of all, I've known the guy for 30 plus years. I mean, I first interviewed him when I was a young New York Post reporter, you know, running around Trump Tower, and he was showing me all his glories and, you know, telling. I mean, it was like he's almost the same guy that he was back then. But I've I've known him. When he came to the white House, I was the chief white House correspondent for ABC.

I also was the president of the white House Correspondents Association. But I was somebody who knew him and somebody who he had known for a long time. So. So there is that relationship, and he gets I think I've gotten the sense over time that he always thinks. that he can pull me in and I'm going to be like, you know, in his camp in some way. And he's interesting. I'm a journalist. We're not in anybody's camp. Right. And he doesn't really understand that. I mean. How can you not understand that after all these years,

you've known him for 30 years? How can he not understand that? I you know, I mean, he said to me recently, first of all, he attacked me recently over my hair is very unusual. That that I mean, Donald Trump. You know, he said, he said to me, I mean, it was it was a Truth Social post. And he said, what the hell happened to his hair? It was just an aside in this rant. He was he was on. And I texted him, after I saw. that and I said, well, maybe I should get some advice from you on hair.

I mean, you know, the hair and, you know, he's. And he gave me an angry response. He was clearly genuinely upset. And any and in his response he said, you backed the wrong side. And I said back, as you know, I don't back any side. I report the facts. He's like, bullshit. And so it's he doesn't quite, you know. But in the book you do say that you didn't. expect him to win, that you didn't quite call it.

No, I didn't, I didn't, you know, look, I was I guess I was, wrong twice on this. because I certainly didn't think he was going to win in 2016. But back then, I'm not even sure Donald Trump thought he was going to win. No, he seemed incredulous on the night when he was actually clearly winning. He seemed. And Melania was crying. Yeah. I mean, I mean, this was, this was a great adventure. I mean, I took a lot of heat. As Trump will remind me every time I did the first network interview. with Donald Trump of the 2016 cycle, it was back in 2013.

He was out in Iowa at this, you know, religious right kind of event called the The Daily Leader. And, you know, I figured it was a slow August. Sunday we went out there. I interviewed him for like a half an hour. It was a very lively interview. We only used a few minutes of it on the show. But people were like, why are you spending any time talking to Donald Trump? You know, he's never going to run for president. You know, this is never going to happen. He's just trying to get attention. He just wants to boost rating for ratings for The Apprentice.

And, you know, we we aired part of the interview and Trump always remembers that. And he's brought it up to me. I can't tell you how many. Times in a good way because, yeah, yeah, you did this seriously early. And everybody gave you a hard time. But boy, did you get great ratings. I mean, I don't know what the ratings were. We only aired a few minutes of it. Right. But, but, you know, he was like. And he's constantly brought this up. He's changed the venue of the interview a couple times. because I did a couple interviews in those early times, and I.

actually didn't think he was going to run either, but I thought he was an interesting figure here. Was this, you know, liberal big city developer who'd backed Democrats. for his whole life going around and courting these Republicans. I thought it was an interesting story, and I actually spent a lot of the time. asking him what he thought of the other Republicans. And also there was like, there was a moment I was like, and this birther thing, I mean, are he's prepared now to just, you know, apologize for what you said about Obama. I mean, and admit that you were totally wrong.

But he was like, no, I don't think I was wrong. And I was like, oh, come on. But isn't he and wasn't he as early as back then, an absolute gift. of a politician's interview because he's not a politician? Well, especially. At this time, especially at this time, because who are the main figures. in the party going into that in that election? I can't even remember them. He said, Stephanie, I'll. Give you two and one on each side. There was Jeb Bush right? And there was Hillary Clinton. Right.

So low energy Jeb. And Hillary Clinton. And what did they have in common is they were so careful. about everything they said and calculated. You know, they did very few interviews. And when they did, they were very and every speech was very disciplined. They had a disciplined message. And here's Trump coming out and it's like, you never know what's going to be. what he's going to say. And and by the way, he's talking to everybody and at all times and, and and this is, you know, this was the fascination and this is how he really,

you know, caught on. So you've written four books about him. You've really, really studied the man. How would you describe his personality? What is his character? I mean, you've referred to him. as a Shakespearean character. What is his character? I mean, this is not a unique insight at all, but I mean, it's it's. everything about him. He wants to be the center of attention at all times.

And you you asked the question about you. Sounded like I had been in an abusive relationship. I I'm not sure about that, but I will say that his relationships. with people around him. often feel like they are, abusive relationships. Well, and to clarify what I mean is, you don't ever know where you always. Right? You've no idea if he's going to be nice Trump or nasty Trump. He berates people publicly. He humiliates people publicly.

He's done that to you when you've been in the press line, but then he'll call you and give you something. And so that feels like a complicated relationship. to navigate from your position. But it's especially interesting with people that are in his. come in and out of his inner circle. Like his lawyers. Like as he brings people in, Donald Trump can make you feel like you are the also. the center of the universe because he wants, you know. Interesting. You know, if you're around him, it's like, you must be a really big frickin deal,

you know? And so a lot of these people who come in, who would, by the way, never be. within miles of a white House with another president derive. so much of their worth from the praise they receive from Donald Trump. And then he can turn that off in a second and make you feel like, and then take away what is now core to your, your your sense of self-worth. I mean, Michael Cohen is like the most glaring example of this. I mean, Michael Cohen, you know, guy that was, you know, dealing with taxicab.

medallions and, you know, graduated from a, you know, fifth tier law school. And suddenly he is there, you know, office. next to Trump's Trump Tower, and he's the enforcer for the man. And then Michael Cohen was, as you know, he was. I recounted, in one of my earlier books, one of these early interviews I had with Trump, which was done through. Michael Cohen set it up and Michael Cohen, like, told my producer,

my young producer that was doing it. You know, Carl asks anything I don't like. I'm going to knock your camera over. You better make sure this thing goes all right. I mean, he was. And of course, Michael Cohen's the guy that says. I would take a bullet for Donald Trump. I would do anything for Donald Trump. And then, you know, Michael Cohen finds himself out on. the ad on the ledge, and he's kind of not defended by Trump. And he takes that turn and now like it's well. And then he goes, oh, for Trump, right.

He goes to jail for that misplaced loyalty. So. what is that about though? This ability to turn on even his closest people is it, is it some kind of chemical imbalance? Is it like a bipolar thing? What can you give us more of a sense of what it feels like to be. in the orbit of it, and also what people used to say about Bill Clinton, which is that when you're with him, you can feel like the most important. person in the world.

Yeah. I mean, it is you look like, Rick Reilly in that terrific. book, Commander in Chief, about Trump's golf game. Recounts are also great. I mean, you know, and wryly recounts covering. a golf tournament that was at a Trump property. And he's there and he's he's there as a reporter for Sports Illustrated. And Trump keeps introducing him to people as the publisher of Sports Illustrated. And Reilly is quietly saying, now I'm a reporter and he keeps doing it.

And finally, Rick Rowley writes that he pulls Trump aside. Why do you keep saying that? You know, I'm not the publisher. I've told you, I'm not the publisher. Why do you keep saying in Trump's answers, it sounds better. It sounds better. And so Rick Rowley didn't like that. He's a guy that, you know, he has a respect for, for the basic truth. But, you know, for people around Trump, you know, he's elevating them. And making them sound like they're the best. They're the smartest. But in a minute he can turn and he does turn heel turn back.

But he does turn. And I think what it does is it keeps people on edge and it makes it. so that the that, that loyalty that they must express to. Trump is always there and they're on edge about it. I got to keep him happy. I got to keep them happy. I got to serve him right. And doesn't it also mean that he's always in control? Yeah, he's always in control of them. He's always the one in control 100%. So if you were a lawyer for him, I mean, I, I heard this from people who covered the, Stormy Daniels trial that he would regularly just yell.

at his lawyers and tell them that they were stupid. and they would say things, and then he would give. his own press conference and completely undercut them. Yeah. Why do people stay working for him? Well, you know, look, he he I think that they're drawn. to the magnetism and for, for some of them, they again, they're in positions. that they would never have with anybody else. And what are they going to do, like leave Trump and and go work for Ron DeSantis or something? I mean, I mean, where are they going to be? They probably aren't going to get hired by Ron DeSantis.

And even if they are, they're not going to be, you know, given this, this elevated. Position and operatives, you mean. Yeah. Yeah. And and the people and and look in some people look, there are people around. Trump who have been around Trump for a long time, who have been through all those ups and downs, who are genuinely like, infatuated with him and loyal to him and think that he is, I think he is a great man. I mean, look, he is the he is the most consequential president of our time. Some people might look at that. Yeah. He's the most consequential. He's, he's he's,

you know, doing things that will be living with the negative consequences forever. And those who think he's, you know, doing great things, I mean, like, Dan. Scavino is a guy that has been with Trump since he was working as a caddie for him. Now he is the deputy chief of staff. He's the head of presidential personnel, but he's been so much more than both. of those things. He's always been by Trump's side. And, you know, I mean, Scavino is a total, total loyalist. And I think he genuinely has admiration and appreciation for the man.

And, you know, he's. his all identity is bound up in in Trump and Trump at this point. A guy like Scavino has been around so long, he's not, you know, I mean, he loves having Dan Scavino around. And how does Susie Wiles figure in all this? I mean, the chief of staff, first female chief of staff. And I think the. first time they met, she was still working for Ron DeSantis. Yeah. I mean, she's got nerves of steel, and,

And she is, you know, she's she's a loyalist. She's also a pragmatist. Within within that world. And, you know, I think that the secret to her success and there's a debate, I think that she could well be there for all four years. I mean, I think that she's, you know, she's got no designs on leaving, as far as I can tell. You know, I think the Trump would trump that very much relies on her. I think the secret to her success is that she never actually tries to change Trump.

She just, you know, she's not there to like, debating him. on this policy or that policy or you got to do this or not. She's like, Trump's going to do what. he's going to do, and I'm going to make sure that I keep. kind of the trains running on time, you know, in the white House. and keep out the, you know, try to keep the infighting to a minimum and, and I will kind of not tolerate any of the. any of that stuff that was so dominant in the first Trump administration. So she's not like a huge influence on what the guy actually does.

But very effective. And that that's the heart that, I mean, press secretary may be the hardest, but chief of staff. to Donald Trump is a very hard job, and she's somehow managed to pull it off. He's 79. Yeah. You've covered four presidents. How does his health and his energy seem to you? I mean, we've seen him covering up bruises on his head. Yeah. I mean, look, there's all kinds of speculation about that. And a much was making.

made of the fact that his he was closing his eyes and the recent, you know. Oval Office appeared to be asleep. Yeah. I mean, all that. So, but I don't know, I, I, I think it's a very dangerous thing to get involved in speculating, about health. I people have speculated about his health since he was a candidate in 2016. 2015? About his mental state and all of that, I don't know, I mean, the guy, the guy actually seems to have a hell of a lot of energy, even.

I mean, you know, like you said, he did appear to be dozing off at an event, I mean, but. Well, let's be fair. He'd just come back from an Asian tour. Yeah, and he doesn't sleep. I don't know how he does it. I don't really understand it. Bill Clinton was like this. Bill Clinton, like, slept like four hours a night. Margaret Thatcher didn't need more than five hours. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know how you know, it's a it must be like a gene or something. that you get to go. I, I can do that for a couple of days, but I mean, come on.

After a while, any he's up, he's taking calls late at night. I would find that the best time to reach him. if I wanted to call him during the campaign was either, like, late at night, you know, far later than you would ever call. Yeah, most other people. And very early in the morning, I mean, I would talk to him sometime before seven and he's already up. He's already watching television. He's already got his, you know, DVR going. He, he's, you know, he's. constantly constant energy, constant activity, and he's almost acting like a guy that feels like he's running out of time.

So I, you know, I, I who knows? I mean, like, he's 79 years old. He doesn't really exercise. You know, his diet isn't exactly the model diet. You know, at some point, all the speculation about his health. will be true. I just won't be the one speculating on it. Okay. You've covered four presidents, as we've said. What do you think of the cabinet. that he has assembled around himself. compared to previous presidents that you have known?

Because certainly he's appointed people who have, like Dan Scavino, who you just mentioned unusual backgrounds to run enormous departments. with huge budgets and massive responsibilities. You know, it's it's a it's it's not a team of rivals, although certainly some of them do fight amongst them. selves for, for, you know, for Trump's good graces. This is a very different cabinet than his first cabinet.

I mean, it's obviously different from other presidents. But his, his first cabinet, he felt a need. He comes to the white House. He's really never really spent any time in Washington. I remember I interviewed him in Washington in 2014. You know, he had he had bought that, you know, the old. he had gotten that lease the 99 year lease on the old Post Office building. He was building the Trump International Hotel. There was a big sign out front saying Trump coming. 2016, meaning that the Trump Hotel was coming in 2016. Right.

And he remarked to me just about how few times. he had actually literally even been in the city of Washington. And he it was. almost like he was like bringing trophies to his cabinet. He wanted to get people of great stature. You know, Rex Tillerson is hardly what you would expect. The profile of a secretary of state. He was the CEO of ExxonMobil. This guy's a titan. John Kelly and. Mattis, Jim Mattis, these are four star marine generals.

These are big, you know, people of consequence. Put them in the cabinet. Homeland security, the Pentagon, Jeff Sessions was a former. federal judge, leading conservative in the in the Senate. Make him your attorney general. These were people of consequence. And credentials and all those people. I just meant I just mentioned Trump feels betrayed him. It's like, what good did it have to have these people. if they weren't actually loyal to me?

So this time around, he's not caring so much about those credentials. It's truly about the personal loyalty to him. And they weren't loyal to him. Rex Tillerson famously got quoted as saying Trump was an absolute moron. As a rock. Climber. Yeah, right. And we know that they were trying to stop Trump from doing what he was. Mattis and Kelly, I mean, Kelly end up calling him a fascist. And Jeff Sessions refused to act like his personal attorney. I mean, Jeff Sessions agreed with everything Trump was doing,

but he wouldn't take the step of like, firing the the the independent counsel, special counsel. Right. And Gary Cohn removed papers from him. Yeah yeah Gary Cohn another one I mean there's a great you know Goldman. Sachs I mean these are like serious serious people. But they were. serious people. and they weren't willing to do whatever the boss wanted him to do. So by implication, are you saying that the people he has around him now are not serious? I'm not going to say they're not serious, but what I'm going to say is the people around him.

are not going to be trying to steer him and troll him in that way. And, you know, in the. and they'll make the argument, well, he's the one that the American people elected. I actually had a very interesting conversation with H.R. McMaster. So who's head of national security? He was the national security advisor, and he often clashed with, with with Kelly, who was the chief of staff at the time, both of them generals, McMaster, a three star Army. general, Kelly, a four star, marine general.

And Kelly was constantly trying to, like, stop the president from doing things. kind of quietly. Not not like confronting him head on, but like, but but there was a. there was an incident where it's actually really timely when you think. about where we are now, this this was in the first term. where there was a meeting in the Oval Office, McMaster, Kelly and some of the other national security folks. And Trump is demanding a war plan for Venezuela.

Totally. Yeah. Totally timely. And, you know, he had various ideas, you know, some sort of naval embargo, but he wanted a whole list of of military options for Venezuela. And McMaster is like saying, sorry, I really don't think that's necessary. We have other tools in our, you know, we've got diplomatic pressure. We've got economic pressure. I really and Trump is getting like angry with him. And he's like, I came in, I want a war plan for Venezuela.

The meeting breaks up. McMaster heads down the hall, you know, outside the Oval Office, and Kelly catches up with him and says, so what are you doing? And he's like, well, you know, I'm going to call. I'm calling the Pentagon and I'm going to get, you. know, get to work, get him to do what he wants. Because don't you do that. Are you kidding me? If you do that, there's going to be stories about how the military is preparing for war with. And we're not going to go to war with Venezuela.

Don't. He's. So this is like a, you know, a fundamental disagreement. about how you deal with a president that you disagree with. Kelly didn't confront him in the actual meeting, just listens to him, let him vent, let him say what he wants to do. McMaster actually does. But then the decision is made. Nobody elected H.R. McMaster or John Kelly. They elected Donald Trump. So. it's a fundamental disagreement about how you how you deal with it.

Well, I think now you actually don't even have much of either of those approaches. You don't have people that are quietly trying to undermine him. You do have some like, you know, a recent example. was the decision to indict Tish James. Know the first one, call me, call me. And then Tish James out of the Eastern District of Virginia. And and Trump did hear advice from the leadership. at the Justice Department that that was not a. a strong enough case and not a good idea to go forward with. But he charges through.

And and the person who was asked to do it, in fact, stepped aside. Yeah, yeah. The the U.S. attorney for the issue. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you I was going to come. on to the Justice Department because you call the book retribution. Yeah. Is it retribution against the people. that stopped him in his first administration? As much as it is retribution against his political enemies who are Democrats. So James Comey, Tish James. Well, in fact, his own person, John Bolton. Yeah. Look, I think that it's multi-level.

And I think that it's retribution. And by the way, you have to and I really take time in the book. to sketch out what brought him back into power. and the depths of those criminal investigations, and how he used that both to motivate himself and his people. were going to get back at the people that did this. But so clearly he wants to go after the prosecutors. I mean, that's the Tish James of it. That's the talk of, you know, going after Jack Smith and, and and and all of that.

Yeah. And at the end of your chapter on Jack Smith, you have Jack Smith hiring his own. Yeah. Because he knows what's coming. He his last. I mean, it's so dramatic, these scenes in January. that this is the most fascinating transition in American history. And I devote a significant amount of time to what was going on. And and also, just as an aside, and I want to come back to the retribution, but the personal details of him with Biden in the car, all of that is, is it feels like you're in the car with them.

But go back to Jack Smith and the drama of all that and the cases. that the Democrats had very slowly, according to some people, Merrick Garland, very slowly putting these together, obviously all fall apart. Yeah. But Jack Smith, after the election, has to ask to wrap up his investigation. He knows that obviously they're not going to go to trial. You had these indictments on the classified documents. and on January 6th, it's not going to go to trial. First of all, you can't. you can't try a sitting president. It's pretty well established Justice Department policy.

And besides, you know, it's he's going to get fired the minute that Trump comes in. So he knows he has to wrap it up. So he does these final reports. It's one final report, but it's got two parts. It's the classified documents and it's the election case. And he dropped you know, his office is not at Main Justice. It's in another part of Washington. It's like an unmarked, nondescript building behind Union Station. He gets in the car with an aide. He comes to Main Justice. He physically hands over the report to Merrick Garland and bids farewell.

And then he literally goes from Maine. Justice to one of the big firms in DC and lawyers up. because he knows that his work is done. He then quietly resigns. By the way, he announced his resignation in a footnote in a court filing. Right, right. And but look, the retribution, what I'm saying is. So he wants to go back after those people. He wants to get back at the Democrats who opposed him. But I think that the retribution that he is most.

emphatic about are the Republicans. who did not back him sufficiently or betrayed him. And by the way, Jim Comey, a Republican, John Bolton. A Republican. Obviously. Republican national security adviser. I mean, yeah. And, you know, Steve Bannon recently, floated the idea. that that bill Barr should be prosecuted and should be in prison. He said, Bill Barr I mean, this is like. Well, it didn't didn't Steve Bannon also say that.

if they didn't win the midterms, they would all be going to prison, himself included. I mean, look, you are going and by the way, this is one of the really disturbing things about this era we are in. You have a feeling like. there's almost like. no coming back from this cycle of of recriminations. What? Trump is weaponized the Justice Department, there is no question. Well and he's put he put his own just to remind people,

he put his own personal lawyers as the number one. And number two. Yeah. Well, I'm Bondi and, And. Blanch. Yeah. And basically the number three to remember Amel Bovie was, was over there. Right. If I, I'd gotten about. Yes. And he. Was looking. At it. and he was running the Justice Department, because. in the beginning, because he didn't need Senate confirmation for his job. So he went over there before Bondi and before Blanche got in. And he's the one that.

that that spearheaded the the firing of those top career prosecutors, the firing of the senior leadership at the FBI, career FBI agents. It was, you know, as far as a lot of the people. who worked in Maine, justice spent their careers in Maine. Justice thought it was like a reign of terror. It was a purge of anybody remotely tied to any case. that impinged upon Donald Trump or on January 6th. And these were this was his legal team. I mean, literally, we you watched the trial in New York.

Todd Blanch is there, Trump is there, and Amel Bovie are there. You've written four books about the guy. So when you write your fifth book, what do you think is going to be the narrative? I think that we. are in for a hell of a lot more. I mean, it's it's mind boggling to think. that we are not even out of year. We are. What are we at ten months yet? Well, coming up for ten months, it'll be the 20th, right? I, I, you know, I don't know what to where we go from here.

I don't know how Donald Trump, acts if he's faced with a Democratic Congress. Because what we have seen is, you know, that he is going to charge ahead. He is going to shatter norms. I think there are people around him, who would like to see him defy court orders. He's he did that to a degree with the Boasberg. order on the on the flights to, Salvador, El Salvador.

But but for the most part, Trump has not gone as far as some people around him. There's that theory of the of the unitary executive, where basically, as Nixon put it in his interview with David Frost, it's not illegal if the president does that. Now, Trump hasn't quite pushed it to to that degree. But there are certainly those who believe he can. So does he totally defy a Democratic Congress? Is there a way for him to work in any way with the Democratic Congress?

Well, he seems to respond. As part of his own. Congress isn't. I mean, he's he's, he's going to Republican congressmen. And he's up. Them and. He's and he's operated largely through executive order. I mean, not entirely. You need to do certain things. It's all we had. The government was shut down. I mean, but so I, I, I really. I cannot tell you where we are going. I don't think that he's serious about, you know, running for a third term or anything like that. I think that he'll be ready to go. But we're in for I think I mean, I don't want to use a there's.

any one of many cliches you could use, but. this is obviously unchartered territory. So I my crystal ball is not good on this one. All right. So final question. You say that, you know, if you want to get hold of him, you call him very late at night or you call him early in the morning. He clearly doesn't sleep very much. He seems to travel a lot to, You have to cover all of it. I know you have a team that you're the lead of the team. How do you looking forward to the next three years?

Think about your own energy and how how do you stay on top of it. and make sure that you're bringing sort of a clear eye to it all? You know, Steve. Bannon was the one that kind of invented that kind of flood the zone. And then they can't cover it all. And they do that. I mean, any single day you feel like we're living through a month. I think that the key. is to try to focus on what looks important. and realizing there's no way you can be on top of of all of it.

And and ultimately, I will write one more book, but it will be after it is all over, and I will want to dig through. You know what? What has happened. Part of the challenge. with writing this book and why I wrote it is this campaign was like that. So to have the chance to take a step back and say what actually mattered, because there are things that, like dominate the media cycle for, you know, two days, which is like an eternity.

in our world now that end up being like, they didn't frickin matter at all. Well, you know what? Know the the extraordinary drama. You you will remember that Saturday evening when you got the call. about Butler, Pennsylvania, and someone trying to assassinate the president? Do you think it was a genuine thing? Do you think that Matthew Crooks was just a random guy. trying to trying to kill someone that would bring him attention? Look, there is something strange in our world right now, which is the,

the the erosion of the idea that there is the truth, that you can depend on facts. and official sources of information, and people don't believe anything. And it's this is actually the biggest challenge facing our democracy. And with, you know, we focus so much on on people on the right. who are obsessed with conspiracies and, you know, the craziness surrounding the 2020 election. And there was, I recounted in In betrayal, you know, this. this theory that went all the way into the into the West Wing of the white House,

that Italian spy satellites were used to flip votes. And, you know, in, in Georgia, voting machines, I mean, give me a break. This stuff was cuckoo. But it got the attention of the chief of staff at the white House. who ordered the Justice Department and the Pentagon to investigate it. Kooky stuff. Now, there's I mean, there's kooky stuff everywhere. And I can't tell you how many people believe that, that Butler was.

Entirely set up. Right? It was entirely a setup. I mean, tell that to the family of Corey comparator who got killed, or the other two who got seriously wounded. Tell it to my friends, the photographers that were there. who including Evan Vucci, he took that picture. This is an amazing picture. It's an incredible picture. Doug Mills, who took the picture of the bullet? Oh, yeah. Went back and looked and saw the plot going right. By I mean the butler happened.

It wasn't a personal. If you try to set that up, you would never be able to set it up. That, that that that. Well, I mean, we can debate what exactly happened with his ear. I mean, did the bullet hit his ear? Was it I mean, I don't know, I don't know, I mean, they're. they haven't been very transparent with the medical records, but Thomas. But but Thomas Crookes. climbed on that roof. He took those shots. A Secret Service sniper took him out.

by one of the extraordinary things that I learned in the case of. in the process of reconstructing Butler is that that was the first time. in all of the history of the Secret Service. that there were counter snipers at an event. that didn't involve the president of the United States. So counter snipers are part of the security. He'd been a president like. No. It was the first time a Donald Trump event had counter snipers. Was that event. That's and why.

Here's why. This is wild. It's because. the Secret Service had been tracking threats from Iran. and and increasing intelligence, nonspecific. but consistent, that Iran was going to try to assassinate Donald Trump. So they decided we need an extra layer of protection. We're putting counter snipers now. There was no specific threat from Iran at Butler,

and there's no evidence that crooks or anybody else had any ties to Iran, that Iran, anything to do with happened in Butler. But they were there because of the Iranian threat. So, in other words, Trump. His life might have been saved because of Iran. You really can't make it up, can you? You can't make it up. It's it's extraordinary. All right. So final question, because it's always in the news. and it's always bubbling under Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. What do you think is in the Epstein files? What are what even are the Epstein?

I mean, it's like it's not like a file in the cabinet. I mean, it's like, it's just. It just means everything that the Justice Department has. That was part of the the case against Epstein. Everything that mentions Epstein's name, there is no I. There's no, like, client so-called client list. I mean, you could go through and pick out the names. I don't know, but but I but I do know this. that, when they were, when Pam Bondi made that promise, we're going to release the Epstein files. They put an extraordinary amount of manpower, power to compile everything,

that had Epstein's name or been involved in any of the cases. And as they're going through it, you know, Trump's name appears, it appears. And this is this is actually not new. You know, he has he we've seen the pictures. We've seen the video actually said it. You know, they they he knew him. He went to he went to some of his parties. He was in Epstein's address book. I mean, a lot of people weren't that strange in Epstein's address book.

A lot of Democrats were in Epstein's jacket. I mean, this is not a unique thing to Trump. He's he was on the flight logs. Lot of people were on Epstein's flight logs. So, I mean, I think it's. highly likely that's why they didn't want to, you know, the brakes were put on releasing them, although that information wouldn't be new. So it's kind of it's a strange thing. So I don't know. The emails coming out of the oversight committee for him new. Yeah. And by the way, and those came from the estate,

the sources are not from the criminal case. Now, maybe they're part of the criminal case as well. I don't know, but the the estate is also which the where the, the, the birthday book came from, the, the the Jeffrey Epstein estate. It's interesting, by the way, that the Republicans in the House. on that committee had to support releasing that stuff. It was the Democrats. that put it out and highlighted, you know, those those particular emails. But the Republicans. didn't block the the release of that information.

Do you think that is a. circle of Republicans who sense that Trump is vulnerable? I mean, he's obviously in a lame duck, yeah, type of face, although he's. still got to get to the midterms and, trying to get the party back from him. I mean, no doubt I think that you're all right. Okay. Because it feels like the Republican Party has become the Trump Party. It is. And I hear that there are lots of Republicans out there who who hate him.

and hate that and want to take it back. But you don't think that's going on now? I mean, look, I, I think there are Republicans that are concerned about the direction. Marjorie Taylor Greene is playing an interesting role right now, but. I don't see a significant a move move away from Trump among the Republicans at all. I don't I mean, it'll happen eventually. I would I would assume I mean, it always, you know, I mean, he will be a lame duck. He will leave the white House. They will have to figure out where they go from there. But it is. absolutely still Donald Trump's Republican Party.

It's so interesting to hear your insights. Thank you so much for coming. Yeah, thanks for having me. You know, I used to think of political biographies. as being so dense and you couldn't get through them. And this is like an amazing character study. of the most interesting man in the world. I mean, the most consequential figure of our time. Yeah. And that is Shakespearean. There you go, Jonathan Karl, thank you very much. Thank you.

The most interesting thing about it is that you would imagine. that retribution was about his Democratic enemies. But as Jonathan says, it's also about his. Republican enemies, the people on the Republican side. that actually tried to take Donald Trump down, that tried to stop him doing what he wanted to do. in his first administration anyway, strongly recommended. It's holding forth on the bestseller list. If you have been. Thank you for joining us.

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