Trump Brags About Insane Plot to Screw Musk: Wolff | The Daily Beast Podcast

Do you think Elon is crazy? I think he's crazy. I mean, all of these ones. He asks a question, and then you respond. Yes, of course I think he's crazy. You agree with me? I know. So he will now use everything to paint Elon. as the bad guy. I'm Joanna Coles, chief content officer of the Daily Beast, and you are lying in the bath to walking your dog, to ironing your clothes to or possibly cooking scrambled. eggs to the Daily Beast podcast.

I am here with none other than Michael Wolff today, and we are recording this on the morning after the Senate. approved the big, beautiful bill. and send it back to the House of Representatives for their comments, all to be done before the July the 4th holiday. So we have no time to waste. And of course, Michael's favorite person is back in the ring with Donald Trump. All right, Michael Wolff is in the House. I am so excited.

I'm also a little overwhelmed because we haven't spoken for, I want to say six days since, which the world has turned. We've gone in and out of the beautiful bill and they're back. Your favorite person is back. Say those two words to me. Three words. Ellen is back on his back. Ellen, I thought you were going to elide them and just say Ellen's back or he's back. Yeah. No, that's. I should have good editing. You could. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. So let's let's remind everybody.

because we have to remember although this happened just days ago. Right. It's it's necessary to remind I think everybody. that Ellen just recently was a whipped dog. Trump had cast him out. and Ellen and seemed to have been groveling back. Ellen seemed to have be saying, yeah, I get it. You know, this is Trump and you can't go against it.

And he regretted the emails that he sent. He deleted the one about Epstein, which was the triggering email to the white House. But as you've said and I'm going to edit, he's back. No, it's I think he's back in a really threatening way. Oh my goodness. Do tell do to, you know, I mean, he, he is saying I'm going to start a third party and, and the media response seems to be all, it's very hard to start a third party.

That's not the point. The point is that in both in both the House and the Senate, Trump's majorities are incredibly precarious. So, you know, a $300. million here, $300 million there. certainly is going to make can make a difference. So it's a majority of three in both the Senate and the Congress, I think. And this is because Ellen doesn't believe in the big, beautiful bill. He thinks it will add to the massive deficit.

that America is already dealing with. And it completely undermines. what he was doing in Doge, which was to cut government spending. Yeah. And let's let's remember in the contrast and there are many contrast. between between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Elon Musk is fundamentally a manager, a great manager, I mean, possibly a genius manager. And so what we have in this big beautiful bill.

is non management and time management. We can just do whatever we want. No paid pay no pay no mind to what this is going to cost. And you know, I mean from the Trump. point of view, this is really let's, let's pass. this bill to show that I can pass this bill. Right. So right. And it hasn't really even matter. to try to Trump that the bill has changed significantly. Both, for better or worse, depending upon upon who you are.

But it's for Trump. It's this is going to pass. It's going to pass because I have to have it pass. because that is the proof of my dominance. Right. And Trump is is pushing it forward because it's momentum driven by the force. of his personality, as you're always saying, administration of one. But what's interesting about the Elon of it. all is that Elon is truly an interesting match for Donald Trump.

And amazingly, I mean, again, you couldn't make this up. Christopher Nolan couldn't come up with this. They both have their own social media platforms. and they are always saying truth social social media platform of one. Nevertheless, it allows him to amplify his message. Donald Trump obviously. And then Elon Katzman fueled or not. Yeah. No. And debate about an X and X, I gotta say has kind of become a platform of one. True. But we're all paying attention to both of them.

Yeah. No, no, I think I think we do. We do. But they are you know, I mean social media platforms. as we once conceived them, were the voices of multitudes. And now very clearly certainly truth social because literally. there is only it is a ghost town except for Donald Trump. Right. But then also also X or formerly Twitter, which Elon owns lock, stock and barrel and dictates completely. That's its message is the message that he wants.

What I find fascinating is the way they're both going at it. The fact that Elon appeared. to be a whipped dog, by the way, just to throw in that last time we were. we were talking about Iran and had the nuclear facilities. or nuclear facilities, as you say, being obliterate it. And here we are talking about something. completely different because the story is rattled on Iran. What? Iran. Yeah, exactly. And who who remembers the parade? Who remembers the tariffs?

But what we have. here is Elon saying that he is restraining himself, but now the bill is being tossed back to the House. When does he decide. whether or not he's going to create this third party, do you think? Well, I think probably if the bill passes, I mean, I don't know, likely to do. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Look, I mean Trump Wolf. It does because it doesn't matter. what's in the bill if Trump will make any compromise. or approve any compromise, just so long as there is a bill,

he'll buy anyone off. You know, as we saw, as we saw in the Lisa murkowski in Alaska. Yeah, in the Senate. So he'll get that. But but I, I even if even were that bill to fail, I think Elon is is is is pissed. I think it's a blood score now, I think on the part of both of them, I know I was tracking some Trump. phone calls on Monday night.

and they it's sort of worth explaining here that, over a. long period of time, I've, I've gotten to know and cultivated. a lot of people who Trump regularly speaks to. I mean, these are some of these people I've known. well before, before Trump and the interesting Trump speaks to them. And then and then they speak to other people. They they literally you can see them, Trump calls.

and then they get on the phone and you'll never guess what he said. So, I mean, this is this is part of how this administration. works with its. yeah. You know, I just I mean, you could call it ultimate accessibility, or weird transparency, actually. Yeah. No. And you know, and Trump, whoever he calls, he says the same thing to everybody. So you know exactly what is on his mind. And the people he calls, they play their part.

They agree with him because that's what you don't even have to. You just listen and go, but then they call. because it's always so, so mind boggling. And but at any rate, and it must still be something. to get a call from the president of the United States. when it's Donald Trump, because it's still a weird disconnect. that this man is in the white House, as powerful as he is. Well, I have gotten the Donald Trump calls,

and it is incredibly weird because this is the president. of the United States who you cannot get off the phone. Right? So it's kind of like you feel I'm holding up the whole world. Because he's I just can't get rid of him. Or you might be saving the whole world because he could be having. a much more powerful conversation with someone else that triggers something. And and there was and there there can. There have been several occasions where it's Donald Trump on the phone.

and he's on in my house on the speaker phone. And your children are running over in the background. Well, I know they they come to attention. Everybody is like, it's like, yeah, or the car phone. Yeah. And you and and and you hear the the voice. I mean, the voice really stops. everybody dead in their tracks because it could be only one person. Right? Okay. So talk me through. So but let me do the so the, the phone calls okay. So what he's saying.

So this is, so this is on Monday. We're doing this on Wednesday morning. Right. And he's like. calling people to say do you think Elon is crazy? I think he's crazy. I mean, all of these ones, he asks a question and then you respond, yes, of course, I think he's crazy. You agree with me. And then so he asks the question, he answers the question. and then infers that you have agreed with him on this question. Or even that it's your thesis.

So you think he's crazy? But his point underlying all this. is that for this week in particular, he does think Elon is crazy. Yeah. No. And he was he actually went on one of these phone calls or many of them. He was on about, you know, you know, you know, how many drugs he takes, you know, you know, he takes drugs all the time. You know that, don't you? You know, the New York Times wrote about it. They said he takes drugs. And then and then he went on to say, say, you know, actually, actually,

we dropped a dime to The New York Times on Elon for take on on Elon's drug taking. He says that to people. So they were the source of the story in The New York Times about Elon. Well, we have no idea. He is just claiming credit for that now. Right. Because he senses. he wants to be behind that particular night. Well, he wants to be beat up and behind every everything. And that's a helpful that's a helpful narrative to him. Right. And and it kind of then he went on to say we, we investigated him.

So so this isn't so he will now use everything. to paint Elon into as as the bad guy. I mean, he's deporting Elon. What he's saying he might deport Elon, right. But Elon is also addressing it. I mean, Elon would sounded. pretty defensive on X when he said, I'm not taking ketamine. I once took it. I'm not taking drugs. Well, I think it's a that New York Times story, for instance, was pretty devastate. I mean, it basically said that he was high all the time and.

and effectively dysfunctional because of it. I mean, and disassociating. Yeah. I mean, this is the most successful businessman of of the era. is dysfunctional. That's a dysfunction maybe we should all embrace. But yeah, true. Well, I'm sure we could get you some ketamine for the next podcast if you would like it. In fact, I think we should try and do a podcast on ketamine. But for now, Trump has responded to Elon's threat that he's going. to start a third party by saying that they might set Doge.

upon him, they might cut his grants, and that they may deport him because he's an immigrant. Again, another example of Trump willing to say anything at any time. Right? So none of this makes any sense. You know, if the government if the government can do things, things to frustrate Ellen. Ellen can do things business wise to frustrate the government. I mean, basically NASA is now run by Elon Musk, right?

So this is just, social media talk, I suppose, but it's just the crazy of it and the fact it's the richest man. in the world, once again, up against the most powerful man in the world. They both have their own social media platforms. We're just the audience. This has always been an extraordinary match from the get go, because it is so asymmetrical. I mean, these guys other than one. is the most of this and one is the most of that.

They're they have nothing in common. I mean, even from a policy point of view, they have nothing in common. I mean, Elon has been this really. staunch environmentalist. I mean, he has what is he set out to do fundamentally, is to revolutionize the, the, the entire energy industry. And Trump obviously has no interest in that.

And Trump has, Trump has and he has always said it and just said this, this the other day. He always knew I was against EVs. Right. Right. Just the fact he had them on the lawn, got into a red one and said, wow, computer. Yeah, I it's still my favorite quote and everything. He said that he got into a test and went, wow, none of this. from any policy point of view made sense. So how did they get together? Why did they get together?

I, I, you know, I'm my, my theory would be that that that Elon and. for all the ways you can you can criticize Elon. The one thing that you cannot do is say the guy is not smart, right? Right. And so he obviously he had spent some time before with, with, with, with Trump. And this was in 2000, he had spent time in during the 2016 campaign.

And then after that in the, during the first administration. And I'm sure he decided this guy is a, you know, feeble minded, you know, of, of course, he's going to take, to take any help. he can get from anybody with half a brain. Enter Elon. And also he's going to be impressed by Elon because Elon is so rich. So I think I think that Elon went in. with that level of, of of certainty.

Obviously he could have an impact on Donald Trump. And many, many, many people have felt that before. And, and it never turns out that way. You cannot have an impact on someone who who has the. an absolute inability, among other things, to listen to anyone. So you have always predicted that between Elon and Donald. Trump, Donald Trump would always win. Do you still think that do you think that Elon actually.

has the smarts to outwit. Donald Trump and cause him really grave damage? Now that, as you say, this is a blood skull? Well, let me add another corollary to that. Donald Trump is self-destructive. So when Donald Trump loses, which is often I mean, he lost. It's free. Lost right? Lost presidency. Right? It is usually because of things that he has done.

So right now he has just set himself up with this big, beautiful bill. To, to to to to lose everything. I mean, he has by forcing. by forcing Thom Tillis, the senator from North Carolina, to, to decide he's not running. Leave, leave, leave politics. And he's partly doing it because Trump has gone after him. You know, here's a guy who said I, you know, I'm I'm going to vote against this this bill.

These are my my reasons. So Trump steps out again, social media to demonize the guy, to vilify the guy, to say, I am going to primary you. I'm going to destroy you. You know, I mean, again, this Trump language, it's always, it's vindictive. It's well, it's it's either you are the best, right, or you are worse or the worst, and I'm going to destroy you. You know, right now, Elon is destroying Elon.

You know, after so many months of Elon was the, you know, the, the, the smartest man in the world. So he went after Tillerson. Tillis said life is too short. Basically, I'm getting out of this, thereby. creating an open seat in North Carolina, which is a very purple state. And it is a very possible that the Democrats will will, will take that that's that seat.

And there are several other. precarious races where the Democrats could easily prevail. Now, the likelihood is that the Democrats will prevail in the House. That's very close. The, the the, that's at the midterms next year. Yeah. And the opposition party, you know, almost invariably gains gains seats. So the expectation has been that he will lose the House. and that will create all kinds of problems for him. Investigations, you know, impeachment.

But if he loses the Senate, if he loses the Senate, that is his, you know, in in the first administration, the Senate saved him on two occasions. From from impeach from conviction. So he was impeached. The Senate convicts if this if there's a Democratic majority in the Senate, I you know he's cooked and also. all it takes is two brave or independent.

Republican senators in the Senate to vote with the Democrats. I mean, it was JD Vance. His tie tiebreaker that got them over the edge. for the big beautiful bill to send it back to the House. Right. Exactly. So it's super close. And Donald Trump somehow can't rail himself in to it. He just always goes over the top, doesn't he just can't stop himself. So it's highly likely that he might self implode. Yeah. And let's I think it's always important to understand what's going on on here.

Why would he do this? I mean, you just look at this. Why would he do this? You know, he could have he could have made nice to Thom Tillis and. and and the bill still would have passed. Right. So why does he do that? He does this because he's a showman, you know, it's always, you know, how do you, You got to make the shtick bigger and bigger. That's what a showman does. He can't.

He can't restrain himself. He doesn't want to restrain himself. I mean, this is this is what he. This is what he does. This is this may be this may be why he's going down. But this is also why he succeeds. Character is destiny, you know. You know, during during the campaign in in those, those final months, everybody around around Trump was saying focus. on the economy, focus on the economy, focus on immigration. Stop going after Kamala and saying, you know, all this,

you know, fundamentally racist stuff. But he didn't even realize she was black. Yeah. When did it happen that she was Joe? Everybody. They were begging him. Donors were calling in, begging him, and he said, forget it. You don't know what you're talking about. All people, the the reason people like me, the reason they pay attention, is that I attack. Goodness me. Okay, so we also had this news this week that Donald Trump and Paramount.

are near to settling, which is, you know, I mean, nearly unbelievable. I mean, there are there are various un unbelievable levels here. First thing that the president of the United States sues the media. for libel and over a very specific thing, which he argued that they had, edited, Kamala. Harris in an interview on Israel, that they. they had used a different clip in the trailer for the 60 minutes interview.

than they actually used in the interview, and they had somehow helped her, which makes no sense because she lost the election. On top of which, all news shows do this all of the time. That is just business as usual. And why shouldn't you be able to do to do to do that? It's it's your news show. You know, there are other news shows. There's Fox this is this is this is the nature of, dare I say, a free press.

Right. And everyone has always my that's, you know, presidents understand this, and there's also a, a fundamental premise that presidents can't be libeled. It just it just, it just doesn't happen. I mean, they're public figures. Is this a, again, part of the part of the. of what we understand to be the workings of a free press? You know, you take it well. And as we know, 60 minutes is owned by CEOs.

CBS is flagship news and current affairs program is owned by Paramount. Paramount is in the middle of a merger deal with Skydance. And Donald Trump has the ability with Brendan Cowell, head of the or chairman of the FCC, to disrupt this. And this was the same circumstance with ABC when ABC settled. with because George Stephanopoulos had said something. that, in an interview with Nancy Mace. Yes.

That the that the that that Trump decided was libelous to him and. and then they settled for 15 million. Paramount is now settling for 16 million. And let us point out this money, these settlements go to Donald Trump. It does this is not doesn't go to the United States government. It doesn't go to the Treasury. It goes to Donald Trump. This is to go into his library fund. Well, he says it's going to to his to his library fund,

I imagine, just to be full of copies of the Art of the Deal or Nothing. But just think a bit about what a what an incredible moneymaking racket this is. I'm the president of the United States, so I'm going to sue you for libel. And because I'm the president of the United States and can can screw. you, screw you with your business in so many ways, right? You're going to settle with me. So I so I don't screw you in so many ways. And I'm going to pocket the dough.

It's it's fantastic. Well, it also acts as a very effective brake on news media, too, because. for the parent company, these companies become much less attractive to run. They get terrible press when they end up settling. It's not been good for Disney. The $50 million settlement over the George Stephanopoulos libel. And it makes companies much less likely to support independent media. No. And I think it's it's actually you can read a broader.

trend here, which is that these companies, these entertainment. companies do not want to be in the news business. The news business is a legacy business for them. Remember, remember these these networks have merged these. They're all the the function of of a hundred. even more mergers then. then that they've, they've gotten these, these these companies, do they really want these companies, these news companies?

Warner Brothers, Warner Brothers discovery, for instance, is now spinning off its cable, all of its cable properties, including CNN, you know, and Comcast is spinning off Spinco, which has got MSNBC. Exactly. And, you know, the Roberts have always, you know, you know, been been. hitting their heads bends MSNBC why do we have this? And Donald Trump is always going after Brian Roberts and saying is a super. white guy, wheat guy said, Brian Roberts is now suddenly the target,

which is not a great place for any CEO to want to be. Yeah. And why? Why would you? You're not really interested in it. You have no interest in news. You know, you know, this is a a diversified entertainment company, right? News is just part of it, but it turns out it's the most volatile. part of it in terms of the president. Right? So they don't want to be in the in the news business. And on top of that, the news business is hardly the news business anymore. It's it's these it's these it's these products,

let's call them that because that's what the what the executives. in these companies, our news product, nobody watches them anymore. So the, the business of news is challenged. Anyway, it is safe to say there will be more people who see us. with our ability basically to say anything, and not to have to be afraid of. of corporate overlords or Donald Trump. More people watch us than,

than, MSNBC, certainly, but certainly more than CNN. That's a huge responsibility, Michael. Well, yes. But at the same time, remember that there's so many other people like us who they are watching. That's true, that's true. The Daily Beast is an independent media company. So we have the great freedom to be able to say, well, to call it as we. as we see it, balls and strikes, I think, is the term I don't know what sport that refers to. Is it baseball?

You know, you're not. I, I, I can, you know, field almost anything. except I always say analogies sports. Okay. So the other thing that's coming for news is RFC juniors. attempt to stifle pharmaceutical companies from advertising. They do a ton of advertising on news channels. When you switch on CNN. So the ads I always get, I don't know if they're targeted, but they're on television for bladder leakage or Humira.

I I've seen so many ads for humor and I still can't tell you what it does. Well, that's also another another that's another issue on news. that it's only watched by old people whose bladders are leaking. It's it's definitely not good. All right. So. so we come back to Elon and Trump. If you were a betting man. by the time we do our next podcast, where do you think this all lands? Have we moved on? Has he targeted someone else? Trump will move the spotlight, but I think that that.

I mean the risk Trump has taken here. And again, this is back to the big beautiful bill. You know he has that has been the thing. that has finally pressed the Elon button. And and if Elon keeps going, as I say, this is a real danger to Trump, a real threat. This is, you know, it's just a couple of members. in both the House, in the Senate, which could seal Donald Trump's fate.

You know, Donald Trump, the the, the. the existential question has always been, when will Donald Trump go to jail? And. and he has managed somehow, somehow and with network and we've, we've now forgotten about that. But, you know, just months ago.

it was, you know, was he going to be sentenced to prison? Well, it was your book, all or nothing. It's either he gets the white House or he goes to jail. There's no middle ground. So again, we'll be back to that. The second half of the of the of the Trump's second term. may well be back into that existential stew. And there will be a lot of Republicans who, whether or not they do it publicly. or they do it quietly, will also be rooting for his demise.

In fact, perhaps even more that, well, they yeah, they they root for his demise, but then they don't vote for it because they remain. terrified of him, terrified. Yes. Oh goodness. Watch this space. My prediction is that we're recording this after the verdict. My prediction is Trump will Pardon? Did he say he's a great guy? He's a good guy. Okay, we'll hold you to that.

Well, I'm not sure we anticipated Elon Musk being back. so thoroughly on the stage, but here he is. And I just can't wait to see how it's all going. to unfold over the next couple of months. Big thanks to Michael Wolf for joining us. And don't forget to leave your comments on our YouTube page. I've noticed because I've been doing my homework, that actually, per percentage of viewers, we have one of the highest. percentages of comments, and they're all intelligent.

I keep saying I love the threads, we read them all, and they're very helpful. to think about how we think of what conversations to have next. Anyway. Don't forget to be based. Subscribe to The Daily Beast just by going to our website, Daily beast.com. This podcast was produced by Devin Roger Renault, Anna Von Ersan and it was edited by Jesse Millwood.