This Will Be Trump's Dark Legacy For America | The Daily Beast Podcast

No president in our history has weakened us more at home. When Donald Trump leaves office, the United States will not be, the most powerful nation on Earth. He is doing the work of our enemies. here at home. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. Thank you for your thousands of comments about Inside Trump's Head, our new spin. off series where I sit with Michael Wolff and we visit inside Trump's head.

We go spelunking with ropes and crampons to find out. what's going on in there, and it's never what you think it is. But right now, we're going to be talking to David Rothkopf about the meeting. with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin in Alaska on Friday. And Europe sits with bated breath after their meeting. with Donald Trump today, where they all sat and discussed. their solutions for the what feels like. forever war with Russia and Ukraine.

Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. Please subscribe to Inside Trump's Head. Feel free to leave us a comment and share it with your friends. It's always much more fun to have something to discuss. with people, and we love to get your feedback. But no one better place a former official of the Clinton campaign. and a man who edited Foreign Policy magazine, and who's got extensive contacts in the intelligence and foreign networks.

So please, David Rothkopf, no time to waste. The future of the world is at stake. Let's get into it. So, David, we're talking just. after Trump has commanded a call. with the European leaders and obviously, Zelensky, what are your thoughts going into this summit? Well, I think my thoughts are, you know, let's keep our expectations in check.

That's what the white House is trying to do. And that's because, first of all, you know, Putin has been intransigent on a lot of these issues. Secondly, Trump really hasn't moved. very far in terms of his view of what the outcome should be. It's kind of still primarily the Russian view. And thirdly, and most importantly, you can't actually make progress without Zelensky in the room. So the most likely outcome of this will be either saying.

we will now have a meeting with Zelensky in Europe someplace, or, we're working on a meeting with Zelensky someplace. But, you know, a big breakthrough, seems unlikely you might get Trump. being optimistic or you might get Trump being a little pouty. But you never going to get Trump, you know, slapping Putin around like he did Zelensky. Because, you know, Putin's. Putin's his daddy, Biden's his daddy.

Well, you're also never going to get him reading anything. about the history of the two countries, either or doing any preparation. As we know from his previous meeting with Putin in Helsinki, he famously said he hadn't done any preparation for it. And you're right that the white House does seem to be, readjusting its expectations. Carolyn, leave it saying it was going to be a listening tour. You've had enormous experience. of these kind of summits.

How unusual is it that an American president would go to talk to the Russian. president on his own, without anybody there, except the interpreters? And then I want you to comment on. Steve Whitcomb, Trump's envoy to Russia. Also having these meetings and then coming out and it not being quite. clear what had happened in the meeting and him saying most bewildered of all.

Well, you know, there are a couple reasons Trump does this. One is that they don't really have many Russia experts around, you know, real Russia experts didn't really want to join the administration. They've downsized and minimize. the National Security Council, which provides this kind of thing. And Trump doesn't listen to experts, you know, and people know that. So you know, that's part of it. But I think, you know, the other part, the darker part that you're getting at is. Trump likes to meet with Putin one on one, and Putin likes to meet. with the Americans one on one. He doesn't want to note takers.

You know, he says what? We can be more candid, but this is also a chance. for Trump to be, for Putin rather to be more manipulative. Use the skills he developed in a lifetime, as an intelligence officer, flatter Trump a little bit, work Trump a little bit, say, hey, we're really on the same side here. And, you know, get to where he wants to. And of course, the most famous example of, you know, the, you know, that sort of set the precedent for all this was Trump meeting with Putin.

and Helsinki in 2018, where although there were no takers in the room, they immediately grabbed the notes, destroyed the notes. And Trump came out of the meeting and said, oh, yeah, I believe. Putin more than I believe my own intelligence community. So, I mean, just going back for that because it's it's. such a good story and it's it's so peculiar. How devastating was that for the American intelligence community? Absolutely devastating. Possibly the worst moment in the,

the history of the relationship between the president. and the intelligence community. within, you know, hours of that, when the story came out as director. of national intelligence, Dan Coats condemned, what what Trump had said because essentially, you know, you know, what is there. between an intelligence community and a president other than trust? And Trump was saying, no, I believe I believe the other guy, you know, our.

enemy. I believe our enemy, more than I believe the people. who have been dedicating their own lives to serving the United States. And can you talk a little bit more about the the KGB skills? I love the way you said flatter him, sort of. What are the other skills that you think will meet. Donald Trump's own skills of the art of the deal? But look, you know, the. the first of all, Donald Trump skills of the art of the deal. were something a ghost writer put into a book about the art of the deal.

Okay, see, I was being sarcastic. Yeah, okay. Because, you know, he and he is sort of famously bad at deals, you know, being unable to make progress and all the big deals. that he said he was going to make progress on as president. But you know, you know, what is it. You know, what is an intelligence officer trained to do. They're trained to establish a comfort level with their contact, and understand the. psychology of the contact, in order to be able.

to manipulate them and get them to do what you want them to do. That's the main job of an operative in the field. And, you know, there is a big book on Putin. Excuse me? There's a big book on Trump, that Putin knows inside out. And we know it. Right? We know that Donald Trump is super susceptible to flattery. That's why every foreign leader who goes in and says, oh, Mr. Trump, your hair looks fantastic.

Have you lost weight? You know, because they know that that is the way to get on his good side. I heard you won your golf tournament recently. You must be a great athlete. And and and and you know, but that's. that's that's how that's how you get to this guy. And then, you know, you establish, you know, a rapport. and say, well, we're kind of on the same side here, aren't we? Now, in this particular case, Trump has shown no signs. that he is actually on the same side as, as Putin.

You know, he's he's talked a little bit. Oh, I'm a little disappointed. And Vlad but. the reality is. we Trump has cut back aid to Ukraine dramatically, is making the Europeans pay us for whatever actually gets to Ukraine. So he's hurt Ukraine's position. He's attacked Zelensky publicly. He's already agreed over and over that, you know, Crimea is part of Russia, that eastern Ukraine is part of Russia, that they want to be part of Russia.

And he regularly says and has said as recently as this week, both sides are responsible for this war. They're not. Russia invaded Ukraine first in 2014. and then escalated it a few years ago. And, you know, the Ukrainians are the victims here. It's not you know, both sides are responsible. Trump hasn't changed his view on any of those things. And as you point out in your column in The Daily Beast,

he came into this election saying, oh, I would be able to close this war. down on day one, and they would never have invaded if I was president. And you point out, well, they were at war throughout his previous presidency, and he did nothing about it, very little. Right. I you know, I mean, he's helped a little bit. in this analysis by the fact that the Obama administration, you know, which is the, you know, the administration that was in power. when the war started did even less you know, they had debates internally.

I know about that, where they were like, should we give them, food rations for their troops or should we give them blankets? That's that's what it came down to. You know, Trump, provided the Ukrainians with certain kinds. of minimal weapons support, javelin, anti-tank weapons. But for the most part, he didn't do anything. And he kissed up to Putin. And it, you know, very clear from the beginning to the end of his last term of office. that he was far more pro-Russian than any American president in our history.

And so, you know, the fast forward to today, has that changed? No evidence that it has. And so what are you hearing from your sources about how Europe. is currently reacting to the state of play? Well, the Europeans are nervous because they know Trump's relationship with Putin. And so that's why they got together with Zelensky. You know, today, Wednesday. as we're recording this and said,

you know, you know, let's all arrive at a common position. Let's have five principles guiding this thing. about Ukrainian security, about borders and, and, and so forth, so that they could present a united front to Trump. And although they talk about, oh, they had a great call with Trump and. it was really exceptional and so forth, that's that flattery at work. Right. What they really are saying is, you can't go into acts on your own here. That's really what. they were afraid of, that Trump and Putin would have a negotiation. Zelensky would be left out of it.

Putin would manipulate Trump and things would get worse. What they're saying is there is a united bloc here with the Europeans. And so you're not going to be able. to bully the Ukrainians to the extent that you want. And that, by the way, is the downfall of his campaign promise. I'm going to solve this in 24 hours, because what he thought he could do. is call up Ukraine and say, we're going to cut off all aid, cut a deal, or you're going to get slaughtered. And the Ukrainians said to, you know, do whatever you've got to do.

We still have support from the Europeans. We're going to fight. This is our land, this is our lives. And we're not going to fold. And, and and this has been the real source of frustration, to to Trump. Trump upset that Putin would deliver favors, you know, do him a solid. Oh yeah, I'm going to give up this, you know, this that my dream of re. reconquer in Ukraine, which he's had throughout his while, certainly since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991.

Also interesting that Zelenskyy, when he came for the now. infamous visit in the white House, didn't do the flattery thing. I mean, a man at war who's managed to keep the Russians somewhat at bay, although they've taken what, 20% of Ukrainian territory at this point. But, put up much more. resistance than anybody thought possible when the war started. Do you think that his lack of flattery to Trump, have they made it up since then?

Oh, I think they've restored the relationship to a functioning level. You know, I don't think Zelensky will ever trust Trump. and I don't think, you know, Trump will ever fully trust Zelensky. I mean, remember, it was over his trying to blackmail, Zelensky in his previous term that he got impeached for the first time. So this is this has been a troubled. relationship, from the outset. Also, what Trump is trying to push.

towards here is very uncomfortable for Ukraine. Give up land. You know, but, you know, you know, accede to Russian assertion that Crimea is part of part of Russia, limit somehow on. what Ukraine can do to protect itself. There's a there's a rumor floating around now. that one of the ideas that the, the Americans have put up is. Well, why don't we, you know, treat.

the the the disputed regions, like the, you know, we're currently trading the West Bank, you know, in, in, in, in Israel, where, you know, Israel has security control over them. And then, you know, we'll have a we'll resolve this issue of, you know, another of the rumors is that there that, you know, one of the possibilities. is that the issue doesn't get resolved for decades, right? I think, of course, the West Bank. is a pretty telling example because that has been terrible.

It hasn't worked out at all. But the Trump administration is so close. to the Netanyahu administration, that they're actually buying the nonsense. that is that that was an effective, kind of a settlement. So. it's the right sort of. real estate deal here somehow for Trump. I mean, you have written about Trump's endless grift, all the economic opportunities for him that he's trying to negotiate here.

Do you think? Well, first of all, you know, he. you know, his big deal with Ukraine earlier, a couple of months ago was, that the US would support Ukraine, but in exchange, we would get access to the rare earth metals in Ukraine. This is, you know, this every, every deal now has, like, a Trump sidebar deal. You know, with the Nvidia export deal or the, you know, there. there are all these kind of straight. They're the US steel Nippon steel golden share goes to Trump.

He's he's like trying to get a sweetener in it. He's like a mafia don. Of course you know the problem with the Ukraine rare earth. deal is nobody's actually sure that the rare earths, exist, that many of the rare earths. exist in disputed territory controlled by the Russians. And it will take decades and decades to to to get to those rare earths. So for Ukraine, as it, you know, is for a lot of these other countries, they say, oh, sure. You know, that sounds fine.

because they know it's just not something that's going to happen. During, Trump's presidency. But, you know, yes, yesterday, you know, Trump made, you know, he was talking about this and one of his is press conferences, and he started talking about. the Russians have taken over all the waterfront. And, you know, oceanfront real estate is the best real estate. You know, I'm a real estate guy. I know that.

And, you know, you can you can only imagine how his brain works. After all, this is the the brain and the kind of thinking that had him. just a couple months ago going, hey, we're going to build a casino in Gaza. You know, I mean, well, that's what I was wondering if he was expecting to see in the Donbas. Suddenly, a news skyline of Trump Towers. or, you know, Trump Tower taking over the skyline in Red square. Yeah. No, he the he will put the he'll be the Don in the Don.

So we shouldn't be laughing really. because this is tragic and it's tragic for people in Ukraine too. He seems very confused by what's at stake. Normally a president going into a meeting with another president, would, you think, be at least talking to. or relying on advice from his secretary of state? Have you even heard about Marco Rubio in any of this? But no, because first of all, you know this this is one of the issues.

Got to hand it off to Steve Whitcomb. Now, having said that, Steve Wyckoff is a real estate guy from New York. who doesn't know anything about Russia, who's already been embarrassed. on a couple of his trips to Putin because he would just for an over. Putin era, you know, a gift that Putin gave to his past, to Trump and so forth. So he's a kind of easy mark for for the Putins of this world. But you know, Trump, as I said earlier, doesn't. care about expert, doesn't care about expertise.

Yeah I can I think it's it's very interesting. I know you have a new podcast called Inside the Mind of Donald Trump. It's called Inside Trump's Head into okay, inside Trump's head. Of good. I think that's better because it doesn't acknowledge that there's a mind in there. But but the the point is. to a degree to which. even those of us who talk about this every day don't quite get it, we are into a period of government. in the United States where it's all about one man,

one person, every critical decision is made by that guy. That guy is the secret weapon. The people around that guy are just there. to tell that guy that he is the guy. And and, and, and so much of what is happening. in the United States and in the world right now. is directly connected to the ego. and the insecurities.

and the twisted character of Donald Trump. That it's not, you know, offset. We, you know, we've had presidents before with flaws, but but we tend to have a government. that's by an organization, by institute who serves. So some of those, you know, personal traits get offset. That's not that's not true here. Our international relations. are the relations not between America and another country.

They're the relation between Donald Trump and his counterpart. And and, you know, our. justice policy, it's not the policies written in law. They're how Donald Trump feels. The law, you know, ought to be implemented or you know, how. he feels about his adversaries that he wants to have punished. Our tax policies are a gift Donald Trump gives to his friends. It's it's all about one guy.

in a way that we haven't seen in, in, in, you know, sort of Western history. except among dictators and absolute monarchs. Yes. It it's it's it's Louis the 14th territory. It's I am the state and the person he's meeting on Friday, Vladimir Putin. What do you imagine that meeting is going to be like? What do you imagine they talk about? Well, I think, you know, I think the first part of the meeting will be.

good to see you again. Let you know. Let's reestablish our personal relationship. You know, Trump has always. put a lot of stock in, recognition by Putin. You know, by having the other big world, you know, he he doesn't feel like he's. a world leader unless people like Putin treat him like one. That I think they're gonna move, into the, the, the issue of Ukraine.

And Trump is just going to be focused on. give me something the best outcome. Let's let's set a time for a meeting. What's the landscape? The best outcome is a meeting with Zelensky, the three of them. That's by far, you know that. I mean, it could be like. we're going to have a meeting with Zelensky and I'm optimistic, right? You know, that can be something like that. But but I think that's the best possible outcome.

I think the worst outcome is going to be we're going to work on a meeting. because Zelensky and the Europeans have. said, here are five principles that have got to be adhered to. And and Putin may say, well, you know. We have different guidelines. You know, I'm. not I'm not going to guarantee to swap back land to the Ukraine or I'm, Ukraine cannot have an army or Ukraine can't be in NATO. Something very strong. At which point,

you know, Trump is Trump is going to say, well, what can we agree to and say, okay, well, let's agree to talk. And I think that's that's where that's where it is. But at the end of the day, you know, Zelensky said today, you know, he thinks Putin is going to essentially. take advantage of Trump and, and, and drive the outcome of the meeting. And I don't see it. You know, I don't see any reason to believe the country. There is no evidence that Donald Trump is going to use the tools at his disposal.

to influence Putin, even though he said he said, oh, well, we can put sanctions and so forth. Well, we could have put sanctions on long ago. We're holding $50 billion of Russian money in our banks. We could have given that to Ukraine long ago. We could have imposed secondary sanctions on China, not just India. But we won't do it. Trump won't do it because, it just doesn't fit, with his support for Putin or the desire.

not to have a bigger dustup with China, etc.. But but David, isn't there also an outcome where Trump. has forgotten all about the meeting that he had today. with the European leaders, where he comes out of the meeting with Putin, having. basically agreed to what Putin wants, which is the land that he's already. taken in the Ukraine, and then somehow leave Zelensky to mop it up. Yeah, I mean, I think that's it. You know, I mean, we think, you know,

we know how Trump works and Trump works by stealth. But his his pitch to Putin a bit. Yeah I can get you what you want. Just leave it to me. You know, at the end of the day, you'll get the land. Ukraine won't be a NATO. You know, we'll push the just that the the resolution. of who controls the land off into the impossible future. You'll be strong, and and they'll they'll end up being elections in Ukraine. And Zelensky will go, and you can put your own guy in there.

Just just let me handle this. And I and I to me, that's that's the that's the quiet conversation in the back. I can I can get the Europeans where we need to get them. And I think that's most likely, you know, that's the card he's going to play because. But what's he going to do, threaten Putin? Putin, a laugh in his face, ranking American presidents. Where would you put Donald Trump for his foreign policy?

You know, pretty, pretty close to the bottom, right? I mean, George W Bush. invading Iraq when there was no reason to invade Iraq. and launching us into these never ending wars that hundreds of thousands. of innocent people were killed, that was a catastrophe. And so that has to be seen as a bad foreign policy development, although Bush offset that with things like, you know, pep FA and the effort to fight Aids in Africa. And he learned as he went,

you know, Trump has not gotten us into a big war. And, you know, I think that is going to be a, you know, accrue to his credit. Having said that, no president in our history has weakened us more at home. And I think ultimately this is going to be how he is judged, in a geopolitical sense. When Donald Trump leaves office,

the United States will not be, the most powerful nation on earth, because we're killing what we do in scientific research. We are turning away tourists. We're turning away people who study in our schools. We're turning away, the best minds. We are weakening the alliances that gave us a lot of strength in the past. We're weakening our economy with crazy, inflationary, the self-destructive tariffs, and now export taxes like the one that he's put on to Nvidia.

So, you know, I think, you know, foreign policy begins at home and Donald. and this to say nothing of, you know, racism or sending troops into U.S. cities or gutting the rule of law in the United States or weakening. democracy in the United States, which was an advantage that we had. And so, you know, Trump, Trump. may avoid you know, global catastrophe.

They may not. And by the way, he's he's encouraging global catastrophe in terms of climate, change. But having said that, his, his doing. the work of our enemies here at home, by making America a much, much weaker country. Well, David, thank you. On that sober, sobering note, will you promise to watch in. as much as we can the meeting for us and come back.

and give us your analysis of it, but absolutely happy to do it. All right. And I urge all our readers. to subscribe to The Daily Beast so they can read your columns. And you also have your own podcast. that we have the. the DSR network, Deep State Radio, the DSR Daily. We have we have we do 1215 podcasts a week at the DSR network. And people can go to that or they can. I have a Substack called Need to Know, and they can go to the Substack.

I'm just exhausted thinking about your output. Dave at 15 Podcast week. Good lord. Well, thank you so much for taking time to visit us. and we will look forward to speaking to you after this. historic meeting where I'm sure Donald Trump will emerge from it. and be utterly unable to remember what he said. And there will be no note takers to to remind him. That's true. I can say that concern. All right, David, talk to you soon.

Well, rather. sobering conclusion from David there. And he's right. It's just one man against the rest of the world, or one man. commanding, America in front of the rest of the world. For more understanding on what's going on in that man's brain, please subscribe to our new spin off podcast, Inside Trump's Head, where Michael Wolff and I take our crampons, we take our climbing gear,

and we spelunker abseil down into the cave of Trump's. brain to try and shed some light on what's going on in there. So don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. You can leave comments now on David Rothkopf s columns. Don't forget to share this podcast with a friend. Share it with an enemy, but at least sit and discuss it. It's what makes us all human, right? I can't believe I just said that. Whatever. Don't forget, as the first lady would say, beast.

And join me in thanking our producers, Devin Roger. Reno, Anna Von Ersan, and our editor, Jesse Millwood.