This Trump Lackey Knows He Isn't Telling the Truth | The Daily Beast Podcast

Oh, sorry. I'm Joanna Coles, chief content. officer of the Daily Beast. I was just inspired by Elon. Musk there to try something. with our plastic cutlery. from the Daily Beast canteen. You are watching the Daily. Beast podcast, and today. our guest is none. other than the fabulous, highly. energetic and brilliant Stephanie Ruhle. She worked in banking, she worked for Bloomberg. Now she's the anchor. at MSNBC's. The 11th Hour.

And I love talking to her. because she's full of insights. And she, like Michael Wolff, talks to people all the time, both in the White House. and in Wall Street. So she's full of up. to date information. about what people really think. about the president. So let's get into it. Stephanie, you've got a great background. You've worked in finance. My first question for you, really, amid the chaos. and the madness, is, does Donald Trump actually. know anything about economics?

He knows about business. Yeah, he definitely knows about business. But he does not know about economics. And listen, talk to any credible economist. out there, even any credible investor. One of the biggest frustrations, about Donald Trump and the. way he's handling trade. and the way the White House is, it's not based in truth. So it's like when you watch. Scott Bessent on television. and when people say, I thought Scott. Bessent was really smarter.

Why is he so nervous on television? He's super smart. and he really understands economics. But one of the reasons. he struggles on television. is because he's not telling the truth. Right? You and I both know being on. television is really hard, and we're actually. reporting the truth. We're saying we're speaking facts. Scott Bessent deeply understands. how trade and trade deficit works. He knows where manufacturing lies. He understands the fiscal cliff, but he's backed into a corner.

with Donald Trump. having to defend a position. that's not rooted in truth. Now Howard Lutnick. is happy to do that. because Howard Lutnick is a broker. Okay? Howard Lutnick isn't even, you know, an end investor. He's a middle guy, right? So he'll sell whatever Donald Trump. wants him to sell that day. to win the trade, to get the commission. Scott Bessent. deeply. understands economics. and that is why this is so hard. for him to justify all of it. But isn't it also hard for Scott. Bessent to go on television.

because it's really. about an audience of one? Right. So he's actually performing. for Donald Trump. That's the only judge. And so he's. sort of scrambling. to obey his boss. Yes. And because he knows. he has said. things in the last year, in the years before that, he's. written letters that fly. directly in the face of policies. he's forced to defend. Right now, it's. extremely difficult for him. Whereas for Howard, Howard Lutnick, he's. happy to put on the show.

and the performance. because that's. what he's always done, right. Scott Bessent, who's. an actual end investor. and who knows. huge investors. are watching. people who respect him, people who called the White House. and said, choose. Scott Bessent, don't choose. Howard Lutnick. to be the Treasury secretary. Scott Bessent knows. many of those massive investors. are speaking to people like me. So how does this end for Scott Bessent? Because you've raised. a really interesting point.

When serious people. go to work in a Trump. administration, it tends to end extremely. badly for them. Well, it's amazing. when you look at serious person. after serious person, it just reminds you of the woman. who says, I'm going to change. that jerk boyfriend. Yeah, I know he was horrible. to every woman before me, but me, he's going to be nice to me, so he's going to change. And so yeah, there's a. of a long line of roadkill. But if you're Scott,

you can also. at a moment like this, end up. believing your own hype. that people are hoping. and praying that you'll be the savior. Right? I have sources. call me all the time saying. how Scott doing is he's. secure in the white House. Is it a battle between Scott. and Howard Scott. in some ways, you know, it was backed into a corner. and he's frustrated because. how does he defend Trump's position. or where does he go from here? But on the other, he is the person. that the finance community, maybe even people that he's.

negotiating trade with. are hanging their hat. on saying, please, can this guy save the day? You know, Kevin Warsh. is one of the most. respected names. and minds, on Wall Street. He currently works. with Stan Druckenmiller. His name is still batted around. to replace Jay Powell. when Jay Powell’s term is up. And, you know, there's all this like. well Jay Powell’s. you know standing strong. He’s not leaving. Jay Powell isn’t leaving. His term is. up in less than a year. Like we can't forget that he's not here.

for the next three years of Trump. His term is up. So it's funny I often think well you know. every time things. take another leg down. with how. Trump approaches, the massive grift. or trade all of it. I think a guy like Kevin Warsh, there's no way. he's going to want this job. But then who knows, right? The people we’re talking about. have two lanes, right? Money and power. And they already have. an enormous amount of money.

the other lane is power. And so as much as I'm like, these guys are never going to go work. for the Trump administration, lots of people. were willing to work. for the Trump administration. It was Trump. who made his number one priority. loyalty rather. than qualifications. Remember, the person who ran. the transition was Howard. Lutnick and Linda McMahon. and Howard said over. and over on television, the number one quality. we're looking for. in people who are going to join.

this administration is loyalty to Trump. So the other person. whose name was up for it to be Treasury. secretary was Mark Rowan, who is one of the most successful. people in the business world. He runs Apollo. And Trump chose Scott. Bessent over Mark Rowan. And I wonder, does. Mark feel like, you know, like the greatest thing ever? He's so glad you know. he dodged that bullet. Or does. Mark Rowan think. I would have been the guy. that would have tamed Trump? I would be. the guy that would convince him.

Because remember, all of these people were talking about. they're not normal civilians, right? They are masters of the universe. Guys who look at all. the money. they've made, who look at all the deals. they've completed, and they think, I can be the woman to change that jerk. It's a great way of looking at it. All right. So so let's talk. about Elon for a second. And we're recording this on a Monday. So this morning Michael. Cohen said on your network, MSNBC, that he thought now Trump. would go after Elon, that he was tired of America.

giving all these grants. to green cars and that he would. now go after him because what. he really wants is Elon’s money. And Elon's done his duty for him. at DOGE. I wanted to get your impression of that. So I mean, I obviously. don't have a crystal ball. I don't think. this Elon-Trump breakup. is as severed as everyone, as other people think. You know, everyone. who's saying Elon has left. Washington with his tail. between his legs with. with a black guy,

literally and figuratively. And, you know, he did an interview. with CBS last week and he said, you know, DOGE. ended up being the whipping boy. I'm not sure Elon. is that disappointed. And here's why. Four months ago, there were scores. of lawsuits, investigations. pending fines, all lining up. for Elon. Musk's businesses. And as Elon Musk. is exiting Washington, where have all those investigations gone?

By the way, of the dodo bird? Poof. They have disappeared. Even Elon Musk last week. when he had his third. failed rocket launch, he said, if you notice in. his quote after he says. yes, yes, this didn't work, but we're going to have more. in a few weeks. In fact, you're going to see more. and in in rapid succession. And when he said you're going. to see more and more often, you know what I thought? Deregulation. There is probably less. and less regulation. There's less red tape standing. in the way of what Elon Musk wants to do.

And even in that, in that interview. he did, his t shirt, said something like. Colonize Mars. or headed to Mars. Elon Musk's. top goal. is to go to Mars. And what would he love. more than anything? To do it. on the government's dime? So yes, he's leaving Washington, but Trump didn't send him packing. Elon Musk's investors, some of the biggest investors in Tesla, said, get your behind off. that couch in the Oval Office. and get back to Austin, Texas.

So so this idea. that they're having this huge break up... Don't forget. Elon Musk right now is saying, you know, you know, I'm going back. to Texas or blah, blah, blah. He has the deepest of deep pockets. And yes, today he's. saying he's not going to invest. in future races. He could change tomorrow. So this idea that Trump. is going to suddenly turn on Elon, I'm just not sure that's the case. What about going after his money, though? I mean, let's talk about Trump's grift, which at this level, I mean, David. Frum said in The Atlantic this week.

and that this is now Banana. Republic levels of grift. This is post-colonial. African country. levels of grift. I don't know if I would say that. someone else last week said. this is more like outer. borough mobster shit. The thing that's so. extraordinary about it. is that he's not hiding it. And that's what's so alarming. And the alarming thing for me. is that that people. keep on trucking. Congress is allowing it.

The Department of Justice is allowing it. So the things standing in the way. are going to be the business. community and the general public. I'm actually surprised. that there's not more absolute outrage. by the general public. Which begs the question, has. the general public lost. complete faith. in government? Have they been convinced. that the government in. general is so corrupt? Is the right wing media apparatus. so strong and so big.

that people. don't realize the level of the grift? Because it's extraordinary. Donald Trump is finally. wealthier. beyond his wildest dreams. Look at Truth Social. Truth Social. does not make money. All it is, is a platform that he sends. his tweet equivalence out on. And if the next level is. eventually, Twitter. buys Truth Social, that's the other reason I don't think.

these two are completely breaking up, because Musk could be. waiting in the wings, ready. to buy Truth Social. And the way the grift is working. with the crypto industry, the crypto industry. has been trying to buy. off lawmakers. on both sides. of the aisle for years. It's why it's hard for Democrats. to stand up right now. and put their hands on their hips. and stop it, because they've been taking money. from the crypto industry. for so, so long. And so. and many people. out there don't invest in.

crypto and don't understand it. So they're saying, I hate that Trump's. making all this money, but I don't get it. I'm not involved in crypto. It's not my business. I don't know that that's the case. Because if crypto becomes so big, if people start gambling. with it so much, we could end up in a subprime. crisis again, right? Neither you nor I. had subprime mortgages. Neither you nor I were buying. five properties on margin. in Vegas, in Orlando. and trying to flip them. Yet when the subprime.

crisis blew up, it impacted everyone. So, so, so crypto. Right now, people are looking at saying, I'm not involved in it. It doesn't matter, okay? Something is becoming. wealthy beyond his wildest dreams. But it could. okay, so, so much. to unpack there. Can we talk first about Trump's. meme coin that he launched two days. before the inauguration. that rushed up to $74. a share and is now hovering. somewhere around. last time I looked about $11. Can you explain that for people? This meme coin doesn't.

have any investment. or intrinsic value. None. And it says it. If you look. at the actual term sheet for it, you're just buying. Trump fandom, you're buying a piece of the guy. And so you have a let's talk about. who would invest and who would buy it. The same people. who are buying the Trump Bible. or the Trump. sneakers at the start, right? The true Trump zealots. who just want a piece of it. Then there's loads of traders.

who are just in it for a buck. because they're saying, Holy cow, I'm in it. You know, I could make money off of this. Let's play ball. And then the third. category of people who truly, truly want to curry favor. with Trump, right? Who could be. some of the biggest investors. in the meme coin. or in Liberty World, right. He actually has an exchange. So he makes money on both sides. You can buy his meme coin. or you can just transact. and his exchange. takes a commission, right? If you were one of the hedge funds.

who owns a majority. stake in TikTok. and you want to ensure. that TikTok. stays in business. in the United States, you could be a massive investor. in his meme coin and his exchange. If you are somebody. looking for a pardon, if you're somebody in the crypto industry. like a Justin Sun, the, the massive crypto guy who is facing. serious legal challenges, those legal challenges. have disappeared, right? The government is practically.

no longer regulating. or prosecuting. anything in the crypto world. And so this is how you can directly. buy favors. and invest in this guy. and potentially get what you want. And the SEC seems. to have kind of. just backed away from this. I mean, once so zealous. under Gary Gensler. about crypto, they've just. sort of withdrawn. Completely withdrawn, and so you now. have this open. highway for a space, you know,

you even have people. that are in the crypto industry, you know, sort of legit people. that are saying this isn't great. because we do need smart regulation. Now there's none and there's. absolutely no legal enforcement. of wrongdoing. And that's highly dangerous. You know, I think back to Eric Trump. at one of these conferences. said or in an interview, he said, we got in crypto. after January 6th. when banks and other businesses. when we couldn't do business with them.

So just unpack. that for a moment. after reputable. organizations said, you. you're not welcome here. Given the insurrection. that just took place, the crypto industry. said, come on over. The water is warm. Yep. So that should tell you something. And it's interesting to me. how many people are tuned out. because crypto is obtuse. And listen, people are just trying to get their, you know, send their kids. to school, get dinner on the table, live their lives, and crypto.

feels like it's over here. So but where it's so dangerous is. we don't know. who is investing in this. We don't know what they could be. asking of our president. and our government. And that is a national security risk. Is Trump a crook? Well, he's been convicted. of 34 felonies, and he's avoided, facing any jail time. Is he. wildly unscrupulous? I don't think that's... I don't think you'd have to have. an overarching opinion to say.

that you can talk to. any contractor. or subcontract or, investment firm. that had to do business. with him for years and years. He would say he's. a smart business guy. he knows how to. do business in the street. But, he's clearly unscrupulous. And you can see that by the dozens. and dozens of lawsuits. that he's faced over the years, from counterparties that he didn't. pay on contracts he had signed. He's a man that bankruptcy. has crept behind. throughout his career.

He's been shadowed by bankruptcy. It's walked parallel. every time he's walked down the street. Is this his moment now? Is this actually do you think. what motivated him. to become president? Shame. and anger and ego did remember. what was one of the biggest drivers? President Obama. making fun of him. at the white House dinner. Donald Trump. doesn't like being shamed. by others, right? One would think if you were. wildly successful,

you wouldn't need to call. People magazine as, John Barron, his alter ego, and say, you know, you're one of the sexiest men alive. You're one of the wealthiest men alive. You wouldn't be hanging. fake Time magazine covers, right? Ego has driven him in many, many ways. But the one thing you. cannot deny at this point. is his success. in that. this is a person who, against all. odds, won the presidency in 2016.

And you could say, there's. lots of reasons. he won it, but yes, he won it. And then after being. convicted of 34 felonies, after beyond humiliation, after. mishandling Covid. in the most extraordinary fashion, he was able to win the presidency again. and now become. a multi-billionaire. You cannot deny that he's. extraordinarily skilled. and successful. However, all of it. has been for his own.

personal benefit. And the risk right now. is the future of our country. and our democracy. And that's hugely dangerous. Wow. That's... that’s... I feel like that. should be your campaign speech, Stephanie Ruhle. And you should be running to lead. the Democrats. Never. If any Democrat is listening. to this now, please reach out to Stephanie. Ruhle immediately. Would you ever go into politics Stephanie? That was an incredible stump speech. I would never.

it is not of interest to me. I love my day job. I love my family. I love what I do. I wish you'd get back out there. this nickname. that's arisen for Trump over his tariffs. TACO: Trump's Always Chickening Out. Have you actually heard people using it, or is it just a media confection? Here's what's really funny. I have definitely heard. lots of people using it. I know it is. getting to Trump in a big, big way. How do you know it's getting to Trump? I've heard it.

from sources. Well, here's how. Because big, big investors. who I talk to, who, find it very funny. because they believe it to be true. it was first coined. in the Financial Times, right? A publication. with a fantastic reputation. that is read by every credible. investor out there. But what's interesting is folks. who I talked to who are laughing about it. don't want to say it out loud, and they don't want it to continue. to get under Trump skin.

because Trump lashes out. and doesn't like to be embarrassed. Well he doesn’t like to be made fun of. But that's it. He doesn't like to be made fun. I've got no sense of humor about himself. It feels like. Although when you talk to people. who spend a lot of time with them, they actually say he has. Yes. And they would say, you know, Gary, I remember when he was. when he was president. the first time Gary Cohn used to say, you know, one on one. Trump is really quite funny. I remember when I saw Trump. at the Al Smith dinner, and I talked to him for a moment. He is, right?

He has like the quick one liners. He's a performer. He is a showman. But, here's what scared me. over the weekend. about Taco. that investors. who I know who laugh about it, who are saying it, who know that. it's true, want us to all. stop saying it. because they feel. that we are on. such a tightrope. with Trump. and his emotions. and what he'll say. and do around trade. They don't want us to keep saying it,

because what you don't want. while Trump is humiliated - him to say, I'm not a chicken, I'm not chickening out. You know, I'm going back to. 150% tariffs. Take it. And so they actually. like the. Taco Trump right. It's embarrassing. It's a headache. They like that. suddenly when investors. are ringing the White House off the hook, when Walmart. and Target show up at the White House. and say. our shelves are going to be empty, or when big time.

macro investors call. Scott Bessent and say, look at the bond market, things are going to crack. They like it that Trump. is the taco guy. And so even though. they believe it's true. and they're privately. laughing about it, they don't want to go on record. They don't want to go off record. They want Taco to disappear. because they want the water. to be warm in Trump's. bathtub and him. be floating around with his rubber. ducky smiling, because if he's embarrassed, he could do something.

Dangerous. or damaging on trade. and they desperately want it to go away. You know, last week, when the courts made that first. ruling that Trump's tariffs, were unjustified. and he couldn't do it, I spoke to a source who said. Scott Bessent is somewhere in his house. on his knees, saying, thank you God. Please let this be Trump's. elegant off ramp. where he can say, I wanted to do the tariffs. I wanted to bring jobs back. for the working man and woman in America,

but I couldn't that. crappy, you know, judicial system. Those crooked judges. stood in the way. like there was. this hope for that night. that like, great, this can be Trump's off ramp. But no, Trump's all in. And they fought it again. And now they appealed it and said no. the tariffs can stand. So when you're talking to business. people, senior business people, CEOs, founders. of big companies, important companies, How are they thinking about? I mean, I feel like there are two. there are two groups. There's the group that goes.

and bends the knee and does. it publicly and appeared. on the dais at the inauguration. And they seem to have been, continued. to have struggled with Trump. It doesn't seem to have helped them. in any way. And then there are the ones. that refused to be seen with Trump, that claim scheduling problems. and would love to go to the White House. Thank you so much for the invitation. I can't do it right now. I'm about to travel or whatever. What are you seeing. in the first group of those. who thought that they could. do business with Trump, but had in fact.

been roundly humiliated by him? I'm actually going to go. to the second group. The second group. isn't so proud or moral. that they won't set. foot in the White House. They're practical. in that they look at the first group. and they say. there's nothing. you can give him. If you're running. a massive business, there's nothing. you can give him that guarantees. he's going to do the right thing. So they're watching the Tim Cooks, or the Bezos or any of these guys.

and saying, well, they didn't get what they wanted. What could I possibly offer him right now. to grease the palm? To me, the most interesting group is, you know, and I talked to lots of guys. who voted for him. or begrudgingly did, or. even if they didn't felt like. after he won, they were like, great, we're going to get the tax cuts. We're going to get deregulation. You know, they didn't like, the former. FTC chair, Lina Khan, and they're like, go, go, go. The majority of them. are furious, frustrated or silent.

The only group... Can I add another F there? Can I add another F there? And frightened. I would add frightened. Yes. Or fearful. Fearful. I thought you were going to say. fucked. Well that too right. You know, I'm working on, not casually cursing anymore, but you just walked me into it. Sorry. I led you straight into it, The only group. that I can find. That is still absolutely. all in Trump. are ones who are making an. enormous amount of money.

personally. They are somehow in a... whether they could be. in a security business, a private prison business. They're in the crypto space. like they have a carve. out for themselves. that they are. cashing in, cashing and cashing in. But I cannot find any big business leader. or business investor. who says what Trump is doing in. total is great. for the US economy, is great for the global economy. Okay, so you recently saw.

President Biden. I did actually. How was he? I didn't interview him. I saw him at, a high school graduation. I saw him at my son and his grandson, graduated high school together. And my real takeaway. was less about, what Joe Biden said and did and more. about what he didn't. There was no fanfare. His whole family was there. There was no fanfare. Joe Biden didn't speak. His family didn't speak. He wasn't even acknowledged at the event. And I think my giant takeaway was,

wow, this is what, decency looks like. This is what a family. coming to their grandchild's. graduation is. They sat there quietly. and didn't say anything, and I thought to myself, here. we are at a time. when everything. is about a show. and attention, and I can't help but think. if a different person. had a family member graduating, they might land Marine One. on the quad. They might be throwing hats out, they might be speaking at the podium. They might expect that.

when we all sat down, the whole room. would have had to salute them. And I just thought to myself. the whole time, gosh, just. quiet decency. is maybe where. we all need to get back. Because in this moment of just. whoever has the most attention. and the biggest microphone, whether we are talking about. a social media influencer. or a lawmaker, whoever has the mic. is the one who's going to win. And it took me back to this idea.

that Democrats are in disarray. I'm not sure that they're in disarray. They're not in power right now. Donald Trump is in power, and Democrats. There's not much they can do. And I don't know that the quiet. that we're experiencing. means that they're flailing. It could mean. that they're. getting their ducks in a row. And maybe we have to take ourselves. out of this space where. whoever is screaming the loudest, whoever, whoever's standing at the most. at the podium with. the microphone is winning.

I'm not sure that's the case. or I'm not sure that's the right way. that we should, all aspire. for things to operate. I appreciate you saying. that about President Biden, but I also wonder. if could that also be. an indication of some remorse? Because I've seen. presidents. post their presidency. and there's always. sort of appreciation. of the power. that they ripple out still, even though they're no longer in power,

there's always an excitement around. being near that power. Do you think it's possible. that President Biden. and the former first lady. are actually feeling remorse. and some regret over. how the whole thing has ended? I mean, you would think it'd be hard. not to maybe make that. I mean, absolutely, it may be, but all I can say is that day. the room was very, very excited to see the people. all wanted to talk to him. and shake his hand. and have their picture with him. and I thought he's received. so much public scrutiny.

and so many attacks, maybe he would like all this attention. that day, but I guess. my take away. that day was, wow, this family's. behaving like a family. it is the day to honor. this 18 year old boy. and his grandparents and his cousins. and his aunts. and uncles all came for them. And I, I totally hear what you're saying. And that could be the case. But on this day. when a room was all craning their neck, you know, excited to see them, they were sort of like,

let's cheer on our grandson. And I just thought, gosh, like, isn't it nice to turn the volume down? It is very nice to turn the volume down. And it's very nice. to have you on the podcast. I'm hugely appreciative, and I love the fact that you're. you just speak in flawless paragraphs. I mean, they just pour out of you. I wish you would run. I wish you would run for office. because I think we need people. with your experience and knowledge. and understanding in office. But Stephanie, thank you so much. And I shall be tuning into. The 11th Hour as I try and do. most evenings to hear your wisdom.

on what's going on. Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you for having me. That's why we. love Stephanie Ruhle. Because she speaks in fluent paragraphs. She's incredibly well-informed. She speaks to all sorts of people, both in the administration. and in Wall Street, to really understand. what people think about Trump's economic. policy and imagine. being Scott Bessent. and having to go out there. and defend it every day. Just imagine that. if you're having a bad day, I think it's not as bad.

as Scott Bessent’s day. If you have enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a comment. Tell us who you'd like. to hear from on the podcast. Because we're having such fun. interviewing all sorts of people. Leave a comment. We really read them all. Or at least we try to. And don't forget. to subscribe to The Daily Beast. Just go to the Daily beast.com. and subscribe for up to the minute. coverage on everything. that's going on. And don't forget, be Beast! This podcast was produced by Devin Rogerino,

Anna Von Oehsen, and it was edited. by Dan Jacobsen.