This Proves Trump Is Shrinking In Every Way | The Daily Beast Podcast

He's getting twisted around his own axle. And I you know, I think he's a deeply frustrated man right now. because for most of his life, he's been able to talk his way out of his problems. And right now it's just they're piling up and piling up. And he's just he's lost that old magic. He got nothing. In addition to that, he looked impotent, right? He looked weak. The subtext of his meeting was America losing stature. And the image that goes along with that is the president losing stature.

He is looking smaller and smaller relative to the president of China. in every way possible, you know, optically, but also metaphoric. Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm I'm editor of the Daily Beast. I am privileged to be in this child today for the great Joanna Coles. We have a brilliant guest coming up, our indispensable chief global affairs columnist, David Rothkopf. Before we get into the show, please take a moment.

Share this podcast with your friends. Invite them to subscribe to The Daily Beast YouTube channel. We are closing in on 700,000 subscribers, and with your help, we can get to a million. And it starts. To everyone who has subscribed that we have such amazing guests. So please help us spread the word. Now. David Rothkopf really needs no introduction, but I will just say. he has written a brilliant column which enables everything you need to know. about Donald Trump's trip to China and why it shows he is literally. shrinking on the world stage, and dangerously, why the US is two.

David Rothkopf, welcome. Thank you for making a special appearance on the Daily Beast podcast. I'm happy to be here and I'm happy to see you kind and thank you. Thank you for well, thank you for obviously thank you for joining me. But thank you as well for being tolerant. of my Scottish accent, which. some people are finding hard to understand.

So I will be very, very slow and very crisp and clear. Have you ever have you thought about subtitles for these podcasts? There are some questions about the reliability of these subtitles. I have noticed, it seems. It seems that YouTube and the strange AI overlords have not been to Glasgow. Everybody should watch Trainspotting a few times. Then it becomes very easy to understand my people. David, you have written a.

must read column for the Daily Beast about, well, the biggest Thorp possibly imaginable, Donald Trump's trip to China. We are recording this while Air Force One is still in the air, but we know we have seen what happened on Air. Force One, and we have seen what happened in China. Tell us your summary of just was this the great. historic, biggest summit in the world ever that we were promised?

But not only were we promised, but as it was happening, Trump was like, well, I don't think anybody's ever seen anything like this. And of course, he says that about everything, and I can only imagine how that figures in his personal life. But in terms of what we saw in Beijing, it was certainly not. In fact, the the main takeaway from. this was none of the ones that Trump might have hoped it was.

You know, he wanted to change the subject from Iran, didn't really do that. He wanted to make himself look like he was a powerful world leader. He didn't really do that. In fact, you know, from the very beginning, she's in ping, set the tone, set the tenor, and actually set the narrative. And, you know, early on, he made this reference to what is. known as the Thucydides Trap, which is this idea.

popularized by a Harvard professor, Graham Allison, that conflict is likely between rising powers. and established powers that they are supplanting. Well, of course, the subtext of that is China's. the rising power, and we are the established or declining power. And he started with that. And then Trump a little bit later when somebody explained to him what was going. on, wrote a true social post, and he said, oh, don't worry about that.

What he really meant was. we were declining under Joe Biden, but now things are great. So he didn't take umbrage. He tried to deflect it. But in every part of the meeting, it was the Americans asking for things, the Chinese not giving them or not giving commitments. to them, controlling the narrative and. lecturing the United. States periodically saying, you can't do this on Taiwan.

You know, that's our our world. Don't don't mess in it. And in fact, what you got was the United States going, yeah, okay. You know, Trump on the plane back was like, well we talked about that. And he said, you know, will you defend Taiwan? And and I said, I don't talk about that. And Trump may have thought he was being very deaf there, but. what he was really saying was he gave, you know, she Jinping that wink and a nod, you know, like, yeah, okay, okay.

Don't worry about it. And I could give you ten other examples. But the point is coming back. Trump looked less, the United States looked less. And I'm not even talking about him falling asleep at meetings. or not being able to stand up straight. Well, I was going to talk about Taiwan because this. this whole situation that Trump walked into in China, first of all, I was going to say who had to explain to him.

what the sides trap is and how. how on earth did they even begin? I'm sure it wasn't Pete. It was not Pete. You know. Did they say, well, there's this Gerard Butler movie and maybe we should watch that first. But who who who? I have to say, a Scottish. Scottish star. But Gerard. Gerard Butler is. He is he is absolutely great. He has never made a bad movie.

And I will stand, but I will. That's a hill, I will die. I think he's died in a few hills in some of his movies. Yes. Trump kind of walked into a trap himself, though, didn't he? He, he, you know, you called this. I'm just going to say you were on with Joanna. earlier in the week, and you predicted exactly. what was going to happen, that Trump was going to bow to XI. And that's really that's the story here, isn't it?

Yeah. Look, it's a long story, right? As I said when I was talking to Joanna. in the column, I did it in the week for thousands of years, people would come to the emperor in China and they would kowtow. The emperor would give them some gifts. But it was very clear that China was the the Middle Kingdom. Right? It was it was the center of the world. And people were coming to the center of the world to pay their respects. That's what it felt like with Trump going there.

And Trump heaped praise on XI. And you know, look, I'm glad Trump didn't start World War three. And and frankly, I'm glad that Trump is not a China. hawk like some of the crazy China hawks who want to take everything. that China does and turn it into a threat to the United States. But having said that, Trump didn't feel like he was appear to. she you know, Trump was asking for things, not getting what he wanted. She was setting the tone of everything, as I said earlier.

And, you know, at the end of the day, Trump, I think, was sort of going home, you know, with his tail between his legs. I mean, he he may think everything's going great, you know, but there are tales that he didn't. One of them was that on this plane flight back, he blew up at everybody around him. You know, he my my friend David Sanger is a New York Times reporter, was on the plane, asked the question about Iran, and Trump went nuts.

And in fact, we have a clip. The total victory, except by people like you that don't write the truth, you know, you should write. I actually think it's sort of surprising this what you write. But you in the New York Times and CNN, I would say are the worst. It's pretty crazy what that he's calling the New York Times treasonous. for not reporting, for not reporting the news the way he wants it. I mean, what he was saying was that the The New York Times was not give him credit. for military victory in Iran and that that was treason,

you know, and and, you know, in any other case, if any other president ever said this kind of thing, people would be going, oh my God, treasons, pretty strong language. And, and, and Trump has a. whole theory of the case because treason is aiding and abetting an enemy. And he believes this is aiding and abetting Iran. And this is all part of his effort to intimidate and shut down. and end free press and free speech in the United States. But but there was also a personal side of this thing.

where the president is not able to control himself. He blows up at people, he attacks reporters for doing their jobs. He looks like an idiot during if you look at the clip, you know, Sanger, when he starts going off, starts looking like he's going to break into laughter. because he, you know, Trump is is is is is is trying to be intimidating. But he's also kind of clownish when he does this.

But this is, you know, this this this colored this whole trip back, he was in a lousy mood and, and that manifested himself. and his responses to questions, both in terms of his. the mood, but also, you know, they would say, well, what did you get done on AI? And he was like, well, we agreed to talk about guardrails. in the future or what did you get done on agriculture? And he ends up defending this super anti MAGA idea.

that China should come in and buy up farmland in the United States. And you know it. Everywhere he goes, he's he's he's getting twisted around his own axle. And I you know I think he's a deeply frustrated man right now. because for most of his life he's been able to talk his way out of his problems. And right now it's just they're piling up and piling up. And he's just he's lost that old magic. You know, I'm going to risk both of us being accused of treason here.

But pointing out can cause is not, I believe, treason so far. But while so his mother Scottish. That is actually true. Yes. Congratulations, by the way. That's something. Yes. He's he's half between that and Mel Gibson and Braveheart, I don't know. I mean, you guys ought to be ashamed. If he wants to know what's really worth your time. when it comes to losing weight, skip the guesswork and get weight loss by Hims.

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and all of the things we brought to the world stage. However, to go back to Donald Trump on the world stage, you rightly point out in your column the fact that Trump. had to go to China to beg in its assistance. Cleaning up his mess in the Middle East is really. at the core of this frustration, isn't it? He created the Ran, the Iran mess, and then he went. and asked, as you say, the emperor, and he got nothing. Well, yeah, I mean, I get when I say is lost is magic.

I'm being a little facetious about the magic, but he's always been. able to talk his way out of whatever his screw ups are, right? Or have his lawyers talk his way out of it. He he doesn't know how to get out of this Iran thing. And the issue in the Strait of Hormuz is a problem. And he's just gone to everybody. You know, he's gone to the Europeans. They're not going to help him out of this thing. He realizes that the biggest power, because they're getting. some of their own through the Strait is China. But China has been very clear. You know, China vetoed the UN resolution.

calling for collective action to reopen the strait. And China has actually been supplying. components of arms. to the Iranians to help them sustain themselves. Trump. That actually came up to, you know, Trump said, would you not supply them with arms? And and he then said she promised he wouldn't. But the Chinese didn't actually say that. And the Chinese have only been providing components.

And it looks like they will continue to provide components. So here he was, kowtowing to a guy. who is actually actively helping the enemy. in this Iran war and helping them in ways. that could actually lead to casualties to U.S. troops and sailors. And that doesn't give Trump any pause. And he was not tough on XI on any of that. And and you know,

you know, he didn't and they didn't agree to help with the strait. So he got nothing. But he you know, in addition to that he looked impotent. Right. He looked weak. So I was hoping you want to talk about is the body language of all this the, the. the feeling an unusually we've actually got a direct side by side. because he went to China nine years ago now and stood with she. So we can see, you know, we can see. the physical change in Trump in his prior visits.

Trump has taught in fact, Trump sells himself as being six three. Now we know you know, we've seen all the pictures side. by side of him and Chris Hemsworth or him and whatever six three guy. who's got the body fat, he said. And it's obviously a lot. But she Jinping is five foot 11 and Trump standing next to him is the same steps. And so, you know, I used this as a sort of. maybe a cheap device or obvious device in the column by saying,

you know, the subtext of this meeting was America losing stature. And the image that goes along with that is the president losing stature. He is looking smaller and smaller relative to the president of China. in every way possible, you know, optically but also metaphorically. And he was presented by by XI. with the grandeur of China, with history that goes back hundreds. And, you know, obviously.

the Chinese idea of the unitary state goes back well into you, 16, 1700 years before the common era. But he was Trump's reaction was to say, this justifies my ballroom. I mean, it just seems like a very diminished view of the world. Well, I think it's diminished mental capacity, really. I mean, if we're going to be honest about the whole thing, this guy's obsession with this ballroom is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. And and, you know, he uses literally he.

I don't know that there's been a meeting that lasted more than 15 minutes. where he hasn't brought up the ballroom during the course of the meeting, and he knows the ballroom is hugely unpopular. He also knows he may not get it paid for. One of the little bits of news that floated around in the past 24 hours. is that there was this reconciliation package passing through. the Congress to allocate a lot of money that the president.

wanted to the Defense Department, to DHS, and so forth. But part of it was $1 billion for the ballroom, the sort of subterranean security elements of the ballroom. And it didn't get the votes. It is unclear that the Congress is actually going to allocate the money. he needs, even as he's having this fight over the ballroom. But does he give up? Does he drop the subject because it's really, really unimportant? No, he says, you know, in China they have really big ballrooms,

and we need to have ballrooms because their ballrooms are like. like remember the the missile gap between the US and the Soviet Union. Now we have a ballroom gap. Even if he gets the money, you know, he's been he's been presented. with thousands of years of Chinese history and he's got a bit of gold. He also in the subject of gold, got on the plane and was truth. socialist about his admiration for the gold statue. And I see gold in very, very inverted commas.

It's actually gold plated statue on one of his golf courses down in Florida, he said. He said he did a whole post saying people loved the statue, which was put there by some patriots who love him. And, you know, it's it's kind of weird. But, you know, there's another gold subtext to this whole story. because Zero Call and you guys have written about it. this week, it was discovered that.

he hadn't actually produced any of his gold plated telephones. Indeed. And. and that there's sort of $59 million that had kind of disappeared from people. who put a deposit on the phone, and they looked like they were trying to weasel their way out of it. But in a subtext that has to do with this trip, it looks like what they've done is by a lot of cheap Chinese telephones, not the current model, the last model.

from a secondary manufacturer, and are going to go and send those out, maybe with a gold sticker on them or something like that. And so here was Trump, you know, the. the Made in America manga president in China. while his team was like, hey, let's buy a bunch of crappy Chinese phones. And Eric Trump, who is one of the two executives running Trump Mobile. along with his brother Don Jr, well known mobile phone executives was on this trip.

Yeah. Remember when they were complaining. that Hunter Biden was trying to cash in on his relationship with his dad? And here we have on this trip, Eric. And I think his wife Laura was there, you know, and they're like, riding along. And obviously they're in the lobby. They're having meetings. And the Chinese know that with Trump, you know, it starts and ends with grift. And we know that in 2017, when he went, what. preceded the trip trade marks for Ivanka's company.

And Lord knows what kind of deals were being struck. on the side of this meeting between Eric and others. We we know this week that Trump, you know, real estate enterprises also run by Eric and Donald is like building. a new tower in Georgia is doing it in collaboration with some oligarch. You know, they're trying to cash in as much as they can as fast. as they can around the world, because this is their moment.

It's going to be a lot harder to take advantage of the Trump name. You know, when dad's doing 5 to 20 at Danbury Federal Penitentiary? Well, I'm okay, that will never happen. Let's just get back to Taiwan particularly. Right? Taiwan. You've you've been involved in foreign relations for a very long time, and Taiwan has always been at the center. of the question of a question of.

is it independent with America come to its assistance? And I think to the best of our knowledge, this is never something that has been. directly asked by the leader. of China of a previous American president. Well, it always comes up. And, you know, there was a long standing principle. based on something called the Shanghai communiqué about the one China policy, and that the United States would always refer to.

the People's Republic of China as the one. China, and always came up with ways of referring to Taiwan, even though we supported Taiwan as democracy and we we we provided. some munitions to Taiwan and so forth. We always came up with a different way of referring to it than as a full country. In fact, we didn't have an embassy there. We didn't send an ambassador there and so forth, and it was all a workaround.

It was one of these diplomatic fictions. But there was always this kind of assumption. that because Taiwan was democratic and because. It was vitally important, particularly in recent decades. as a producer of semiconductors, that the US. would act to defend it. And, you know, in recent years there have been even some, you know, statements by Democratic politicians, by.

by leaders, even on both parties saying that, you know, we would have to do that. Well, Trump is clearly backing away from that. And although he would say he is not that China. You know, we we hope China doesn't attack Taiwan. You know, prior to these meetings, I think on the plane on the way over there. or while they were over there, Marco Rubio did an interview in which he said, well, you know, the Chinese are hoping that reunification can be peaceful. And obviously that would be a better outcome.

And we certainly don't want it to be the other kind of outcome. But that was not a strong statement. And, you know, Trump's statement that he didn't confront. XI on this and he wouldn't tell she whether he would defend Taiwan. or not was certainly not a strong statement. And it goes with something broader, which is that. Trump has embraced this kind of sphere of influence theory of foreign policy, which is we should be able to do whatever we want in our hemisphere.

Russia should be able to do whatever it wants near Russia. And China, by extension, should be able to do whatever China wants near China. And all of these things have made the Taiwanese nervous. And then that has been compounded by the fact that the US is scrambling. to create chip fabs so that it can create our own chips. and we don't need them, and that the Chinese have had an explosion. in their ability to create chips,

and that they, too, are not going to be dependent on Taiwanese chips. And I have to say, the minute that Taiwan does not control the advanced chip. manufacturing of the world is the minute that Taiwan is in the most jeopardy. And that just coming, I mean, sooner or later that, you know, that that's that the world doesn't want to be as dependent. as it is on Taiwan for the vast majority. of all the advanced chips which are needed for AI.

And that's just going to reduce its leverage. And ultimately, there is going to have to be some kind of a confrontation on this. Whether it's violent, diplomatic, involves arm twisting, involves blockades like we've seen. in the Strait of Hormuz or like we're currently seeing around Cuba. Who knows? But this is going to remain an issue that's very thorny for years to come. The other thing that hangs over this is Trump's broken, Trump's.

kind of broken promises. We talked about farmland and how that was a real major thing. of not allowing the Chinese to buy buy up. US farmland and particularly to buy near American military sites. But Trump went on. Sean Hannity, who was part of the official delegation, apparently, as you would expect. But of course, Trump went on Sean Hannity and kind of surprised even Sean. Hannity by saying he's kind of okay with this now.

And in fact, we have the clip. I would assume I'm in Beijing if I wanted to buy. property near one of their military installations. I don't think President XI, I don't look, it's not that I love it. You want to see farm prices drop. You want to see farmers lose a lot of money? Just take that out of the market. He's willing to dump what had seemed. to be core, core issues for his voters. And, you know, similarly, you know, there's this sort of there.

had been this very aggressive language about Taiwan that's been dumped. There were supposed to be soybean sales. They don't seem to quite have happened, which is going to be, you know, of. concern, I would imagine, to the farmers particularly, for example, Iowa. He's really flexible here about about his MAGA principles. First of all, you know, he said there would be sweeping sales. The Chinese didn't confirm it. He said there'd be bowing sales. The Chinese didn't. And in fact, I should say he kept going on the Boeing sales on the plane and said.

we'd started with 200 analysts had hoped for 300 Boeing stock price went down. And on the plane, I presume. cognizant of the stock price, he said, well, it might be as many as 750. The Chinese haven't confirmed any. That's such baloney. It's it's it's it's such baloney. But but but but look, I know as a journalist. you're supposed to approach these things with a certain degree of.

decorum and. objectivity when framing a question like this. But let's be honest, Donald Trump has no principles. When? When is Donald Trump had a principle that he that he was just not bend on? Right? I mean, not pertaining to marriage, not pertaining to his business partners, not pertaining to the oath he took to the Constitution of the United States, not pertaining to loyalty to allies or loyalty to friends.

Throughout his life, he has betrayed his friends. He's betrayed his family is no principles. He's just in it for Donald at the moment. What's good for me right now? What makes me feel good right now? What can put more money in my pocket right now? What's going to get me out of the problem that is, you know, dogging me. right at the moment? That's what Donald Trump is about. And so is he going to sell out Mega for sure. He sold out mega 100 times. You know, we this week we discovered that 10 million Americans.

are going to not get the subsidies they need. So they're going to have to drop their health care. Well you think those are all Democrats? Of course they're not. You know, and lots of money that would have gone to. magistrates isn't going to go to Mega State. And he's he's screwing them. You know, I mean, Rudy Giuliani was going through hell. And you know, he told him he cut him loose. He I just every Donald. Trump's entire life is an encyclopedia,

a chronicle of violating oaths, vows, commitments and principles. And I don't think we should be surprised here, in the declining days. of Donald Trump, to see him, as you know, that that, that that he is a figure. without any, you know, values. or ethical standards because he's that's who he is. It's also kind of revolutionary of the movement. of we have significant questions, though, over his mental state.

Right. And it's ability is cognition. And one of the things about this, this trip is the mask. I was going to say the mask is off. Maybe the mask is the wrong phrase, but Trump appears increasingly disinhibited. He appears more willing to just say these things, which is a sign of dementia. I'm not a psycho. therapist or. a neuroscientist, but you know, I've read enough. of these articles, which is something that runs in his family.

He can't stay awake. He can't stay on topic. He doesn't seem to understand a lot of what is going on around him. He's constantly needs people guiding him in the right direction. He's losing it. And you know, you know, I know it's a running thing at the Daily Base. Donald Trump 79. It will run out on June 14th. Just say set your diary. Well, exactly. And starting in on June the 14th, it's going to be Donald Trump 80.

And and you know, I you know, he can't be blamed for being 80, although there is this kind of dark irony because he went after Joe Biden. for being old and suffering. the decline that comes with age. And it is, if anything, happening to Donald Trump. earlier, faster, into a greater degree than it has happened to Joe Biden.

And he also went after him for China. China Jewel was one of the nicknames in the past as well. And yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, they went after Obama. because when Obama got to China, he wasn't greeted by the president. Well, Donald Trump wasn't greeted by the president. You know, I mean, the the hypocrisy. is another dimension of this clown show that is just, you know, with us in every day, in every instance that we see them.

Your analysis of it, I think, is, is is one that's worth. just dwelling on for a second. You describe him rightly as low energy, an elderly visitor being tended to buy his more vigorous host. But it does seem like there's something of a break here. that we're beginning to see that this is not the the Trump. The Trump movement is definitely over, that we are on the downward.

slope of this presidency, it seems. I'm so glad you're saying it because there are too many people. You know, I live in Washington, and so I encounter people all the time. and they're still caught up in, you know, Trump from ten years ago when he had a lot of momentum. within, you know, American politics. or he was a force to be reckoned with or whatever for all the wrong reasons. But, but but he was there.

Trump's a lame duck. He's not going to run for office again. He is declining. He's not up to holding the office right at this point. And even though, you know, we saw recently in, you know, sort of interim elections. that some people in Indiana or someplace are still, you know, being loyal to him. This guy is on his way out. And I think the big story in American politics. really ought to be what's next.

You know, who who is going to be dealing with these challenges. that we face as a country next. And and Trump's just not going to be part of that. And I think, you know, to some extent, it may explain his insane mania. for putting his name on everything building statues, building. arches, building ballrooms, having airports named after him, etc., etc.

but he is behaving like a guy who is aware of his own mortality. Well, David, we could not ask for finer. chronicler of the years after Trump. Never mind the years of Trump. There's so many. There's so many questions to be asked about what happens next. Cannot wait to discuss those with you. Thank you for joining us. Well, I can't wait for those years after Trump. I'm sure that you're not alone in this. I say it's it's going to be tough for the media, you know,

because Trump's like this colorful figure. and will undoubtedly get somebody who's less colorful, God willing. But, you know, we could we could do it for little bored. It isn't it. I could do. I would I could do it that. You know, neither you nor I are getting any younger. I could do it. The period where things are just in the zip code of normal. isn't the proverbial Chinese curse, which I'm sure is totally apocryphal. Please, if if you know that it's a polka. I'm not saying it's true, but people always.

said, oh, may you live in interesting times. Yeah, well, I think the in the direct translation is may you live in the times of Donald Trump. Well, I'm glad that. the ancient Chinese seers saw our moment so effectively. David. Yeah, you're a much more up to the moment seer. And thank you for bringing your insights. It's always good to talk to you here. David. Thank you for joining us once again.

You can read David's absolutely must read verdict on Trump's amazing shrinking. trip and his emissions shrinking presidency at the Daily Beast. Com. I just want to see a big personal thank you to the many, many people. who have sent messages of support for Joanna. She is absolutely aware of them and very grateful. I'll be in the comments later to hear what you've got to say about Trump. in China, about Trump's mental state and all the other issues. that this podcast has raised. And finally, thank you to our production team, Ryan Murray,

Rachel Carson, Heather Bizarro at our Legal Eagle, Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.