This Is Who Will Be Ailing Trump's Shadow POTUS | The Daily Beast Podcast

We have had multiple times in our history after Eisenhower's heart attacks, when FDR was in its declined health at the end of his term. Where other people did the job of president. Power flows from the president, from the people. closest to the president, from the people who control his schedule. The vice president is is almost never in that if he were incapacitated. and they had to invoke the 25th amendment, that would be another story. You may just have more memos on more decisions.

Go into to Stephen Miller. or going to somebody else who's sitting outside the Oval Office, You know, Stephen Miller going to say, “Okay, we'll say the president’s fine.”. Just send those memos to me. I'll handle it. But I going to tell you. You look at Donald Trump, you look at the bruises, you look at his behavior, you look at his age. Look at his family history. And we could be heading for one of these periods where somebody. other than Trump is actually behind the scenes, the acting president.

If it's Monday, it's David Rothkopf. Hi, Joanna. Where do we begin? Well, tell us about your weekend. What did you do to tell a good time? I had a very good time. Perhaps not as good a time as the president did. Cruising around on his golf cart with Gary Player, the golfer. Except that he's showing nasty bruises. David, if I can. Only you know when I see those bruises.

We started with his hand on his ankles. Now the bruises are going up his arm. You know where that leads? It makes you want to wonder, like, what does he look like, naked? No, it doesn't make you think that, David. I've never once thought that. I do have questions about. You know how it looks naked, right? He's got all these bruises, and then he's got, like, this orange spray tan. So when he takes off his shirt, the orange stops right here, right? What do we know? It stops right there. You think he hasn't already?

Chest. He's completely orange. What I'm curious about. Because we'll come on to in a minute discussing the AI photo, the sort of photoshopped version of what he released yesterday. Is, is the image of himself. Who does he think he is? I was very caught by the thing he said last week about Republicans. People don't like Republicans. They're angry at Republicans. They're not angry at me.

And when his people, like Natalie, put out pictures of himself. and they've made him slimmer and they've removed the bruises. Does he think he slimmer and the bruises aren't still there? Does he have a fake sense of who he is at this point? For sure he does. First of all, he's kind of a delusional guy to begin with. He's always had crazy ideas of who he was that. he's the greatest developer in New York, the most important producer on television, the only guy who can get ratings.

The only guy can solve a problem. The only guy who can end a war. All those things are completely delusional. But, you know, he now has. fewer and fewer people want to have anything to do with him. He's in this tighter and tighter bubble, and the only reason people. have been picked for that bubble is because they lie to him about who he is. They say, you're a great boss. You're a genius, boss. Your policies are working. Boss. Natalie Harp is there. You know, one day he looks like Jesus. The next day he looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger. When he was, you know, training to be Mr.

Universe. And Trump thinks, oh, yeah, this is who I am. This is who I am. And anybody who says I not, they're my opponents. And, you know, I think it's a sign. Just as we discuss every week, we could have a little checklist, but. this is a sign of his further decline, his further remoteness from reality. And that comment in that interview is, is, is is just a perfect example. The polls say no,

he's the least popular president at this point in the second term ever. His policies are unpopular. Everything that's associated with him that's unpopular, he just is beginning, you know, also to try to to. distance himself from what he sees as the November outcome. And he's like, well, you know, if I'd been running and he said this. and the he's kind of like, if I had been running, then they would have done better, but I wasn't running. David, we've got a lot to get into. I want to talk about Susie Wiles.

I want to talk about some of the people who are clearly pulling away from him. We've got Melania's 226 workload for people to see. I'm just going to hold it up here because you will see a lot of gaps on. the calendar. We want to talk about Iran, my favorite. I mean, I shouldn't say my favorite, but my my sort of favorite moment, I guess, of the week was Scott Besson, the Treasury secretary, saying that Iran had agreed to open the Strait of Hormuz.

And then Iran listed their conditions for it. And it was like a sort of farce. I mean, it was it was as if the list had been written. by Armando Iannucci, you know, one of the favorite writers. we come back to who did In the Loop and who did Veep in terms. of just the madness of of this war that Trump started his forever war. But before we go on, let me just remind people.

to smash the subscription button. Please share this episode with your friend. David Rothkopf, former editor of Foreign Policy. And I think it's fair to say a former, well, I guess, civil servant. I worked for the government. David Rothkopf, historian and author of many books that made you sound like a spy. I'm sorry, but you're the author of many books. The Deep State Radio Network. Nice to meet you.

Have we met before? I'm losing it this morning. It's the doldrums of summer anyway. David Rothkopf is with us, who always shines his wisdom. at the beginning of the week on the crazy that's going on. So. So, David, can we just go back to Trump and this notion of presidents. finding it very difficult to actually understand what is going on, because they're sheltered by the Natalie Harps of this world. who are running around showing motivational statements. and making up pictures of him on Mount Rushmore.

Or, as you say, as as Jesus. How hard is it you've been a presidential historian. You've worked for presidents. How hard is it for them to get a sense of actually what's going on? It's it's it's really very hard. And that's why, you know, presidents. actually have to work against the, the, the bubble that closes in on people when they're in the white House. They have to work against. what's called groupthink, this idea that everybody around them,

you know, they go into the same meetings, they get the same signals, they start thinking their policies are right. and that anybody who's opposing them is wrong. That's why, you know, you have, as Doris Kearns wrote in her book, People Seeking a team of rivals, right, that they try to get together people. in their cabinet with different points of view. Well, Trump doesn't want that. He doesn't want different points of view. He wants people who will flatter him and agree with him. So the tendencies towards groupthink,

the bubble get get stronger and stronger. And and he frankly doesn't tolerate people who stray once. Look at Jeanine Pirro. You know, here was this woman who was, you know, going on TV all the time. saying how great Trump was. And then she became the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia because she said how great Trump was. And she started pursuing all of Trump's insane cases. And she she strayed once, and he's like, well, I'm considering firing her.

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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. So. So David, we have a story on The Daily Beast today. about how Susie Wiles was completely blindsided. by the new head of ice that Mark Wayne Mullen, the new head of Homeland Security who replaced Kristi Noem. He's got zero experience like various Trump appointees, it has to be said,

but he's got zero experience to be head of Ice. He was part of Mark Wayne Mullins security detail, and before that. he was a highway patrolman. So he's probably quite good in, in a car. But Susie Wiles was apparently. blindsided by this, as was Tom Homan. Susie, whilst we know has had breast cancer, she's being treated for it. Then we saw Dave Warrington, the white House lawyer.

left this weekend to be replaced by. someone called Will Schaaf who's who's been knocking around the white House. So there's sort of changes going on. Melanie is completely missing in action. We did a deep audit of her white House performances. It feels like people are abandoning him. Susie, whilst doesn't seem as present, Warrington's off to make money. It's like he seems even more isolated. Well, I think he is more isolated. I don't think people like him.

I don't think they want to hang around him. You've talked about that on other podcasts here, but I also think. people can see the writing on the wall. You know, Trump won't admit he's a lame duck president. But with these coming elections, and particularly if the Republicans. do badly in these coming elections, you get to the other side of these, particularly the Democrats control one or both houses of Congress. He's the lame duck. He's over. Every story is going to be about who replaces him. It's going to be hard for him to maintain being the center of attention.

So that's a problem for him, particularly given his personality defects. But you also have the discipline around him. breaking down as people start looking for their next. And this happens all the time, by the way, in a White Houses, you get a couple of years in, everybody starts looking for their next job and. discipline breaks down. And and by the way, one of the other problems is that as the A team leaves, the B team comes in,

you get sort of second rate choices, which we're seeing there. Susie Wiles had this great reputation that she was the one. who could keep control of the uncontrollable Donald Trump, and she stayed out of the limelight, and she just made sure the trains ran. on time in a job which has been called the second most powerful job in the world. But she has been ill, and she, I think, is a little disconnecting. And I think from what I hear, she's getting frustrated.

by Trump because Trump is notoriously undisciplined. And in this, by the way, he's like some other presidents. You know, Clinton, the whole secret with Clinton was. get to him right before he gives the speech. You know, if you're the last person to talk to him, you had the best chance of influencing the outcome. And this is a tendency that other presidents have had that, you know, you have as an alternative, certain. presidents who are more respectful of the process.

Obama was a little more respectful of the process. But even with him, we talked about. on the show that you're doing on women around presidents, you know, Valerie. Jarrett, other people would meet with him in a social context. and they would circumvent the policy process. Well, you know, with Donald Trump, you're on the golf course with Donald Trump. You could change his mind on anything. I mean, he changes his mind on all these things anyway. And also, he has no process. He's not a president who say, well, I've got to run it by the guys, right?

Or run it by my team because he doesn't run it by his team. So clearly Mark Wayne Mullen buttonhole Trump and said, hey, I got this, pal. He's really good. You know, he has a lot of law enforcement experience. Let's put him in charge of Ice and he'll be super loyal to Boston. Trump's like, okay, let's do it. And he announces it. And then Susie Wiles finds out this. I predict Susie Wiles will not last long in this job, because this is the kind of thing that chiefs of staff do not tolerate. Well, at least professional chiefs and staff.

And I think you're going to see a lot more churn between now. and the end of the year, particularly if the elections go badly. We're going to see cabinet secretaries go, we're going to see people. around the president go, and he's going to see more isolated. But the final point, and the one that you know more about, you know, and this daily Beast. is written more about than anybody is, you know, the sort of canary in the coal. mine is Melania, who is completely checked out.

Nobody, you know, she's the first lady, right? You know, she's. the one who's going to have some sense of, you know, what her obligations are. She probably has it in a contract someplace. And, and, and I think according to your analysis, she made two appearances in July. Right. Two appearances in July. And actually, we we are running, as you know, because you're part of the last episode, the final episode, a four part. series on Trump and Trump's women, the women around him, his family, his wife, his daughters, and then the work wives.

And we had yesterday on with Nell Scovell, whose idea it was, we had Anthony Scaramucci come on. And he said the issue with Trump now is that he's also Mina. So people. don't want to hang out with him as much because as he's gotten older, he's gotten. Mina, he's under more pressure, he's gotten Mina, and people. just don't want to be around it. And if they have options, they they leave. Yeah. And when I did one of my podcasts last week on the DSR.

network was with a mutual friend, Mary Trump. And Mary said that Donald's father, as he sank into dementia, became meaner and meaner. You know that this is a trend that will continue. for biological reasons, neurological reasons. In addition to the usual lame duck. end of the administration reasons. And, you know, Melania, you know, I think she's completely fed up.

I you know, I mean, her famous coat that she wore that said, I don't really care to you or whatever it was, I don't. She doesn't care, you know, what's he going to do to her? She's gotten her money. She'll be gone the day after. This is all over. She's leading it completely separately. But people see that, you know, people in the administration go, well, wait. His wife never shows up, right? I mean, the only person who showed up less in July than Melania is Mitch McConnell.

Yes. Well, I mean, McConnell is now back home, right? Mitch McConnell. And where is Barron? Also odd that his youngest son just, you know, who you would think. would be enjoying. having a father in the white House is nowhere, nowhere to be seen. Supposedly on the NYU campus in D.C. looking at central. Ivanka was right. And Evancho made the decision early on. I'm about doing this again. Yeah. You know, and so who are the people closest to Trump? They're the ones who loves.

They want to stay away because I think they know. that as bad as things are with Trump right now, as he goes through this election, as his relevance shrinks, as the conversation turns to is it Marco? Is it JD, is it you know, and he's not the center of attention. He's going to melt down. He's going to be absolutely intolerable to be with. Yeah. We had James Carville on the podcast last Wednesday, and he was saying,

speaking of people who were intolerable. Yeah. Go on. Well, he he was very tolerable last weekend. And he speaks highly of you, David. Sure, sure he does. But his point was that Trump will have. is is completely unprepared for what happens after the midterms, assuming the Democrats win the House where power just, you know, people go to where the power is and when the power is no longer with you, that it's you're in the rearview mirror.

and he won't be he's not used to it and he won't know how to handle it. Was his with James's point. Washington? Well, unusually for him. That's correct. That the the the I'm in one of the you know. I'm a little bit more progressive. He's a little bit more centrist. I have a little problem with some of the stuff he said recently. But he knows Washington. He's been around in Washington and he knows that the thing. that makes Washington different from New York is in New York. It's all about money, and everybody can have money.

You can be a billionaire. I can be a billionaire. Your billions don't impact my abilities. But Washington, it's all about power. It's a zero sum game, and it's all about access to the president. And the table has a certain number of seats in it. And either you're at the table or you're not at the table, or you're the center of power, or you're not at the center of power. And Trump's stock in this regard is depleting on a regular basis. And frankly, for a guy who's literally, since, I don't know, 1980.

made his whole life about how could he be the center. of attention in the New York Post, in the New York media, on TV. And he's he's going to stop being the center of attention, and it's going to drive him completely crazy. I feel this because, you know, while you had this weekend. and you were off doing glamorous stuff, I just look at watch movies. because I'm a movie freak. And I watched The Apprentice, the Sebastian Stan movie. about Trump with Roy Cohn in the 70s and 80s.

It's a very depressing, kind of grim. but true depiction of Trump. And and he is about to enter a phase in his life. that he has not been in in 40 years. And that's his period of irrelevancy, his period of. being old news of not being interesting to people. And it's going to coincide with, you know, his physical decline.

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All right. Can we talk about something else that's really not. pretty and seems to be going on and on and on, and again, is very reflective of, as you said, Trump's complete lack of process. and his determination to be a government of one. Until we assume the Democrats win the House, which is his forever war. Let's just talk about this. Scott Besson puts out a statement saying the Iranians are excited to do a deal,

that they're almost there. Can we go through the terms that they are demanding? Because this, to me is just sort of breathtaking in terms of the well, the first thing that I, that I took from this was that if you get a chance to. be around Donald Trump, play cards with him. because he's really bad at cards and he's always saying, these people don't have the cards and he's always wrong. You know, he said, well, the Ukrainians don't have the cards, the Russians have the cards. And then it turns out. the Ukrainians actually have the cards and the Russians done.

And in this war with Iran, they don't have the cards. We have all the cards. Well, they then signed an MOU, which was a sort of capitulation to all the core Iranian demands. And then the Iranians distanced themselves from that. Well, they've now taken it to the next step, where they have essentially issued a bunch of demands which amount. to a call for unconditional surrender on the part of the US. I mean, it's like we will not discuss anything with you. unless you pay us the money to rebuild our country.

You give us all the assets of ours that you are holding. You stop fighting us in any way. You take the blockade and you get rid of the blockade. You promise never to say anything bad about us? You send us a Christmas card every year. I mean, it is an incredibly detailed list. 6 or 7 points, but it's. There's no wiggle room in this. It's not like we're gaining ground. And on top of that, as all this was happening.

And I love that Scott Beasant was the designated idiot last week. who had to go in and, you know, offer up the Trump position, even though everybody knows that the position is full of baloney. Over the weekend, at the same time, days after, Trump said, and we are making progress in Gaza. So look over here because, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu said no. He said, you know, he. waited and he said, do I piss off Trump or do I piss off my allies in Israel?

And he's like, I'm not. I'm happy to piss off Trump. And again, this is another message to Trump. It's another, you know, everybody is whispering in his ear, you're not relevant. You are old. You need to leave the stage. It's coming to an end, Donald. It's the grim reaper everywhere you look standing around it. And you know, unfortunately. for the world that has terrible consequences. when he is the only decision maker when it comes to a thing like this endless war,

because the Iranians are saying, we'll wait it out. I'll talk to you after the election, Donald. Talk to you after. We can push the price of gas up any day we want between now and the election. Talk to you after. You know, the whole campaign is being run on your inability to control this war. And and so, you know, they now have all the cards, we have none of the cards.

And there is, by the way, another story on that which we've gotten. into over the weekend again or expanded over the weekend, and that is that Trump waged this war without advice against advice. And what did he do? He used up the vast majority of the most important munitions. in the American arsenal, the air defense. systems, precision guided weapons. It's honestly, I have to tell you, and I wrote about this for you guys on Friday.

This should be the biggest scandal there is the United States right now. If we were attacked, couldn't have and ourselves, the United States right. now, if one of our allies were attacked, couldn't defend ourselves. We had a general leading general in Europe who said, if Israel gets attacked. now, we can't help them because we don't have these weapons. This is profound mismanagement. on the part of Hex and Trump, but it also ties Trump's hands. He you didn't hear him over the weekend saying, we're going to destroy Iran.

And the reason is he can't he doesn't have the tools to destroy Iran anymore. And they know it, and the Russians know it. And the Chinese though it. And there was this thing that they just put out today, you know, well, you know, we're going to get proposals. from defense contractors to restore all of these stockpiles. And it's complete bullshit. because it's going to cost tens or hundreds of billions of dollars.

and take many, many years to get back to where we should be on this. And so, you know, in a way, Trump just blew his wad. with Iran in the wrong war. He used up all the cards that he had. And the Iranians are, you know, they're laughing all the way to the bank. They know that they are going to dictate the terms. And frankly, our allies in the region talk to them. They know that the United States influence. in the Middle East has never been weaker.

And I think Donald Trump is probably terrified. of being compared to Jimmy Carter. with, of course, the Iranians. keeping American hostages for 444 days. I mean, the Iranians really understood how to play Jimmy Carter. They understood there was an election coming up. And they surely understand that here. That's exactly right. It's exactly right. But, you know, but Trump is making Jimmy Carter look like a cross. between Dwight Eisenhower and von Clausewitz.

I mean, or Winston Churchill. Right. Because Jimmy Carter was at least having a process, managing circumstances, trying to handle this properly. He had some bad luck. And also, by the way, he got screwed because the Republicans. were doing this backchannel thing where they were saying to the Iranians, don't release them until after the election, but, but, but Trump is in the situation he's in because he's an ignoramus.

who doesn't understand history, who doesn't listen to advisors, who's told his advisers, get rid of all the people around you who have real experience, who has literally shut down. the National Security Council, who has, you know, a frat boy. running the Department of Defense into the ground. He he he has screwed this up. I mean, we made many mistakes in the past, you know, Vietnam and Iraq. and all this other stuff.

But we've never made mistakes with. as a consequence of such chaos and stupidity. And that's, that's, that's the those are the hallmarks of Trump foreign policy. Chaos and stupidity. Chaos and stupidity. What happens, do you think, to Pete, does Hegseth get fired after the midterms? I mean, we know that Trump shouted at him at Camp David last week. when they were all there for their brief summer off site, and.

Trump said that he. hadn't told him that the shortage of munitions was as grave. as it is, then promptly blamed his number two, Steven Feinberg, I think, and said, oh, well, it was his job to tell you, and he's the guy in charge of munitions. That's a real hallmark of great leadership, isn't it? Just blame. someone else to throw your number two under the bus in front of the president, rather than taking responsibility for what is clearly.

the single greatest act of Defense. Department mismanagement ever. in the history of the Defense Department, I mean, it should be a giant scandal. There will be investigations into this if the Democrats win. And I think, you know, Trump. will probably push Seth out. at as we get to the end of this term. Do you think that's what will happen? Trump will fire at yeah, I mean, Trump's whole calculus now is will.

this make me look weak before the midterms. So I think, you know, there will be an exodus that's there. often is two years into a term at the end. And I think he is one of the people who go, I think Susie Wiles is one of the people who will go, you know, we will see what. investigations do for the future of Howard, who's tied up in the app Stein thing, or Scott Besant, who seems to be pissed off at everybody around in the government.

So, you know, I think there will be a big turnover, but I think he will be at the center of it. because he literally has been an absolute catastrophe on every conceivable level. of department management, budget management, people management. strategy, leaking stuff, attacking the press, ending transparency, sending the wrong message, being a clown. You know, it's it's I'm surprised he's still there.

Frankly, Democrats are not necessarily. in a in a much better position. They've got the sort of civil war within the party. between the moderates and. the more progressive. Do they? I mean, they do for James Carville, but they don't for, you know, I mean, look what happened after. Doctor Abdul. El-Sayed won the Democratic nomination for Senate in Michigan. Within hours, his opponent embraced his candidacy.

The other opponent in the race embraced the candidacy, Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of of Michigan, who had not supported him, embraced his candidacy. Within a couple of days, he was meeting with Barack Obama, and Barack Obama was, you know, offering to help him and giving him advice. Here's what happened. This doesn't get covered, but the Democrats are actually in array, and they recognize that whatever their differences are internally.

Wait a minute. That in array is that the opposite of disarray? That is, I have never heard that term that in array. How interesting. Well, I offering up, you know, in contradistinction to the term. that you often see in the press, which is Dems in disarray, the Democrats are in disarray. And the reality is, at least in this case, in Michigan, we see an example where the Democrats say, oh, no, it is far more important. to beat Mike Rogers, who's the Republican candidate for the seat.

and hold this seat, because the Democrats winning the Senate. really will turn heavily on a few states, and Michigan is one of them, because the seat is currently a Democratic seat. Okay. So can we can we just take a look at some of the action. going on in Michigan, because Abdul El-Sayed has suddenly come to life? I mean, a lot of people paying him attention. He's very quick in his responses. We've got a couple here, and then we wanted to show you Mike Rogers.

and more importantly, Mike Rogers wife in his new. ad welcoming moderates to to the Trump wannabe candidate. And of course, Mike Rogers is a former congressman. So he's known in Michigan. If you're among the majority of Democratic voters that woke up on Wednesday. feeling, well, hopeless because the person who won. does not represent your values well, just know there is still hope. Michigan deserves a senator.

who is ready to sit with you, hear from you, and represent you. The parents across Michigan. who want an education system that sets up their kids for success. You have a home with us to grandparents across Michigan who are heartbroken. from watching their kids and grandkids leave the state. You have a home with us, Mrs. Rogers. Just she doesn't look very happy there. Well, you know, she's pissed off. And maybe there could be a parade. of pissed off Republican wives who've got to sit next to these jerks.

as they put this up. I think you know, his slogan, you have a home with us. doesn't really work very well, because, as doctor El-Sayed pointed out. the last time he lost in Congress, the first thing that Mike Rogers. did was actually move out of Michigan. And he moved to Florida to live in Florida. But you know, this you know, you've sort of picked. the the part of his message that sounds more traditional. In the past 48 hours, both him and Trump.

have launched really racist attacks on doctor El-Sayed. because he's got a different sounding name. Oh my God, like Zoran Mamdani, like Barack Hussein Obama, like the woman is running in Wisconsin for governor tomorrow, Francesca Hahn oh my God, there are immigrants in America. And and and you know, when you don't have anything to point to. in the way of success, like the economy's in a mess,

the war that both he and Roger said. was a necessary war is a complete disaster. There. is no agenda for the Republicans in Congress. They've gotten nothing done. The candidates that you see from the Republican Party. on the TV, like. Max Miller in Ohio or Ken Paxton in in. Texas, are among the sleazy people you will ever see.

They don't have a message. So they go back to Trump 101, and that's racism. And, you know, you've got to you've got to ask yourself, you know, like, look at Abdullah said he has a degree from Columbia, his degree from Oxford. He was a Rhodes Scholar. He was a doctor. He was a public health official in Michigan. He lives in Michigan with his wife, who's a psychiatrist like his two kids. If his name was Smith, they wouldn't be saying.

any of this stuff and his crazy radical policies that he wants. He wants the people of Michigan to add health care. He wants the the roads to be paved. Well. And he's very specifically said he's not actually a member of the DSA. He's also very quick in his response to the media. Let's play some of those responses over the weekend. And he says, if you pardon the language you're full of, what do you say to that? At least I don't let mine go in the middle of the Oval Office,

the caption was two very different Americas. What was your response when you saw that? Yeah, he's right. One in which your overlords are two people who don't like each other, but joint in the interest of making billions of dollars off of. You have. two people who genuinely love each other, enjoyed some pancakes together, want to come together to build the kind of America where they can raise a family. and know that that family is going to have the good thing. So yes, you've got two different visions of America. Donald Trump's vision is the one you're living in right now.

Can you afford your gas? Can you afford your groceries? Do you believe when you look your kids in the eye. that they're going to have a better future than you did? And Sara and I are running because when we look our daughters in the eye. and we want them to believe that they're every bit as able. to have a better future than the one that that. that they could have had under the Trump administration. Very capable politician there. He's a very good candidate. He's a he's a brilliant guy and he's had a great career. But. here's the reality that the Republicans are going to have trouble dealing with.

He is the all American guy. It's not Trump. It's not a billionaire who flies around the world who's you know. Flaunted immigration laws with his prior wives, who's got all these birthright. citizen offspring. This is a guy who grew up in America, has built a family in America, has built a career in America, has succeeded in America.

If you listen to him, he's talking about the things that. people in Michigan care about. And, you know, he's you know, I mean, Trump. is totally off his game at the moment. And that's why, you know, doctor, I'll say it immediately. Said, I would like to have five debates with Mike Rogers. Right. It's like let's have debates. You know, he's like he knows he's going to clean the floor with him in these things.

because the Republican record is bad and Rogers record is bad. And Rogers, you know, when he left Congress, he ended up making $14 million. And as Alcide points out, you know, he had a very cozy relationship with the pharma industry. And, you know, it's it's. it's it's not a case that that Trump wants to make. But having said that, he's got nothing else.

And so I really expect the next 2 to 3 months. to be among the most racist we've seen in American history. with attacks on him, like the attacks on mom. Dani, like the attacks you remember on Obama, like attacks. on potentially the Democratic candidate if she wins tomorrow. Francesca in in in Wisconsin and and so on. And I don't think that's going to play well because it reminds everybody.

that the Trump administration immigration policies are awful, that people are dying in custody, that, you know, these unqualified people are being put in the head in charge of ice, that ice is killing people, that it's just this week announced, well, we have cameras, body cams on our cops, but we're only going to show you the film. we like, not the video that that may not look good for us, that it's just, you know, scrutiny does not serve Trump well.

And and I think else. I will play to that extremely well because he's he's deaf. There's a reason he won against the odds, against all the money against him. He's a good candidate. He's a very good candidate. Also, I thought it was odd that Donald Trump put those two pictures. out himself in black tie with Melania in a dress that I always think. makes it look as if she's redacted her body. from Donald Trump with those thick black stripes, and then a much more. relatable picture of a couple having what looks like Sunday pancakes.

Well, yeah. I mean, it's like they also don't get it. The reality is that the US Census Bureau said. that by 2043. 20, then the next, you know, 10 or 12 years, the majority of Americans are going to be what we used to think of. as minority groups, people of color, immigrants, other kinds of backgrounds. That's the majority of Americans.

It's not going to change playing to the white male. majority or the billionaire white male majority in your black. tie is playing to a small group people. can relate to, Abdul said. Better than they can relate to. You know, Donald Trump at Mar-A-Lago, hanging around with foreign dictators. Well, if he's hanging around at Mar a Lago, that means he won't be hanging out in the ballroom. Do you think the ballroom, which, as we know, was given a 14 day.

stay last week by. by a DC court will how will he maneuver. through this, this essential halt to to the work? He's got 14 days to get it resolved. Well, he's going to go to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court will possibly address this thing on the shadow docket. And the decision that went against it was a decision in which the one Trump.

appointee judge that that he should be able to continue, and the two non Trump appointee judge on the appellate court ruled against him. And they may come up with some reason that he should be allowed to do this. because there's a big hole in the ground there. Or you know, Trump doesn't refer to this as a ballroom anymore. It refers to this as a military installation. Right, because he feels he's got more legal ground. saying, well, I have to do this for national security reasons.

Then he does, saying, I have to build this giant gilded ballroom. with all these chandeliers in it in which to entertain my rich friends. Trump's violated the law. a bunch of times. in proceeding with this, but he knew that if he did. and there were a big hole in the ground, it does create a problem for the courts, which is, what are you going to do, fill in the hole in the ground? And so I have an uneasy feeling, but my uneasy feeling.

is that the Supreme Court will say, well, go ahead and finish this project, even though there's no legal reason to do it. It's just that there's six Trumpy justices. on the Supreme Court, and they tend to look for excuses. to, to, to do this kind of thing. Were they to give him the thumbs down, it would be absolutely devastating to him. And, you know, his whole, you know, his his project right now.

is his legacy project, you know, where can I leave my name and monuments to me. so that when I'm gone, people remember me and the. you know, the centerpiece of that is this ballroom. And, you know, it's it's it's in jeopardy now. But I have an uneasy feeling that. he's going to get his way in one way or another. Interesting. I tend to think that the Supreme Court either won't take it, or they will restrict from your lips to God's ears. They should not take it.

This case has been resolved. There's nothing that requires their involvement. If they don't take it and he is enjoined from it, it will only accelerate the meltdown we're talking about. And I think, you know, if you wanted to sort of tie a bow run around, our conversation today is the president is melting down the people around. The president realizes melting down, it's only going to get worse. It's only going to make the situation they Iran worse. It's only going to make him more of a racist going into this election.

It's only going to make him more intolerable to the people that are around. him. It's only going to lead to an exodus of those people. and an inflow of even less capable people. And it's going to be a kind of a pathetic display, because after all, this is an 80 year old guy who is obviously not. physically or mentally healthy or up to the job he's got. I mean, we don't talk about it, but you guys have written about it a little bit.

You know, Trump's schedule. is so micromanaged these days and he does a couple of hours a day. He doesn't appear on TV. He does fewer of these open press things than he used to do. And it's because people are sort of easing him away. This happened with Biden, by the way, where they just sort of don't put you center stage. And it does raise a question, which is if he declines further, if he is less capable of handling the job, who's going to handle it for him?

Who is, you know, Stephen Miller going to say, okay, we'll say the president's fine. Just send those memos to me. I'll handle it, because that has happened before. And and, you know, I, I did these books that were histories of the white House, the NSC. And I'll just give you one example. I talked to people like Frank Carlucci was a Defense Department, the secretary of defense under Reagan, and Colin Powell, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and later Secretary of State.

And they said that after Reagan entered his decline, they had rules after 5 p.m., they didn't ask a question. They said they would try to resolve the question among themselves, and it would get passed on. And, you know, his, his his role as president grew more diminished. They would run more things by Nancy Reagan. Same thing happened during the Nixon administration when,

as a result of Watergate, he started drinking more heavily. And there was even one instance during the Nixon administration. when there was a report of an incoming Russian missile attack, Al Haig, who was acting as the Who's the chief of staff at the time, didn't call Nixon. He called Kissinger. He said, what do we do with this? Or maybe it was Haldeman called Kissinger. And he said, well, how do we deal with this? That was Haldeman. And, and but the point is, we have had multiple times in our history.

after Eisenhower's heart attacks, when FDR was in his decline, health. at the end of his term, when Woodrow Wilson was, was a bedridden. after a stroke where other people did the job of president. And I got to tell you, you look at Donald Trump, you look at the bruises, you look at his behavior, you look at his age, you look at his family history. And we could be heading for one of these periods where somebody. other than Trump is actually behind the scenes, the acting president.

Well, shouldn't that naturally be JD Vance when he's not on his book tour? Theoretically it should be. And frankly, the reason that the Constitution was amended. so there was a succession process in it was because of that. But of course, that's not how power works in the white House. Power flows from the president, from the people closest to the president, from the people who control his schedule,

from the people who send out his statements. And so the vice president is is almost never in that. if he were incapacitated. and they had to invoke the 25th amendment, that would be another story. But but that's not I think, what is going to happen here. I think, you know, you may have a slow decline. and you may just have more memos on more decisions.

go into. To Stephen Miller or going to somebody else. who's sitting outside the Oval Office. That's a very depressing scenario, and they will probably feel more desperate. and more anxious themselves, especially if the Democrats win the House. So perhaps they'll become more extreme with what they think they can do. Well, also, they may become afraid. If I were Stephen Miller and Democrats start doing investigations. and there may be a Democratic president and a Democratic Department of Justice,

I'm running scared. What am I going to get prosecuted for? Or if I've been involved in some corrupt activity. that I was hoping the president would be able to pardon me for? What am I going to do about that? Or are you going to start having people who aren't the president. handing out pardons in the president's name? I just I think we need to brace ourselves for this possibility. And I'm actually writing column for you guys on this now.

because it happened with Wilson. It happened with Roosevelt. It happened when Eisenhower had his heart attacks. It happened when Nixon was drunk. It happened when Reagan had dementia and was feeling the after effects. of his assassination. It has happened frequently in our recent past, right. We need to prepare for the possibility. that it's going to happen with this rapidly declining, stressed out. basket case of a president that we've got arousing. start to the week with David Rothkopf, what more could we ask for?

David, you really paint a quite bleak picture. And yet this is America. We must remain optimistic. And the point of democracy as you can change your government. Yeah. Well, look, that's that's what may happen in November. One of the things that may push him over. the edge is democracy works and Democrats win one or both houses of Congress. So there's good news and the bad news, the thing that's going to make him craziest is if democracy actually works.

David, I'll see you back here next Monday. We'll see what further declines in evidence. Certainly. Those bruises on his arms look unpleasant. He looks unpleasant from top to bottom. And I apologize for the image of him unclothed earlier. But it is good to talk to you, and I look forward to it next week. Good. David Rothkopf, thank you very much. I love the way that David put a bow on,

on essentially that the president appears to be failing, that his health is failing. He's got new bruises that appeared this weekend. He really doesn't look well. The white House understand it, because they're putting out photoshopped pictures of him. and his policies are failing to, and it's reflected in the polls anyway. Right. And tell us in the comments what your favorite part of the conversation was. And if you have been big, thank you for joining. And to our production team, John Romero, Brian Murray,

Rachel Pastor, Heather Pesaro and Neil Rosenhaus. We will see you back tomorrow. where we're going inside Donald Trump's head with Michael Wolff. So the good news is we have so many BBC tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.