This is What Trump is Really Planning for America | The Daily Beast Podcast

I'm Joanna Coohl's. This is the Daily. Beast podcast. I'm the chief content. officer of the Daily Beast. And today. we're talking to my favorite political. columnist, David Rothco. He's got a. brilliant column this week about how. Democrats are suffering from what he. calls Trump envy, which is their envy of. how he uses power and their envy, obviously, of actual power. So, let's. get straight into it. Before we do, I. want to remind you that David was the.

former editor of foreign policy and he. was also a senior official in the. Clinton administration. So, he spends a. lot of time talking to dominant. Democrats. David, you've written two. excellent pieces for the beast uh in the. last week. One was about the enormous. number of words we need to describe. I. think what's you described as the shitow. in DC and in the way that Eskimos have. many words for snow, we now need a lot.

of words for what what's happening in. DC. But you also wrote a very. interesting column um spilling a secret. that is being discussed in DC. Can you. reveal what it is, please? Well, I I. think among a lot of Democrats, even. Democrats who are extremely alienated by. Trump's, you know, extraleal and worse. behavior, there is a little bit of Trump. envy. And, you know, one of the reasons. is that politics is about winning and he. won the last time around. But there's.

two kinds of Trump envy. One is mild and. it's, you know, fairly benign. Maybe. he's doing some things every once in a. while that are worth noting, acknowledging because we can learn. something from it. The other form of. Trump envy is dangerous. And you see. that a lot on cable news shows where. there are consultants who are. essentially trying to say we've got to. be more like Trump. We have to become. Trump light and we have to sort of turn.

our back on the base of the Democratic. party, the principles of the Democratic. Party. And maybe even this week, and. perhaps you noticed this story, maybe. even we need our own Joe Rogan, you. know, that there's this kind of $20. million project to cook up a a Democrat. Well, I think Gavin Newsome's trying to. do that with his podcast, isn't he? He's. he's interviewed Joe Rogan. He's having. people on from the opposite side of the.

aisle to create conversation. And I. think as he's looking to either run for. national government or at least figure. out a future. postgovernorship, I think he's looking. to go into entertainment. Well, you. know, good luck. Good luck with going. into entertainment. I think what he's. done is ended his chances of being a. leader of the Democratic party because, you know, it's one thing to say, well, we need to hear from the other side. It's another thing to cozy up to them,

to embrace them, to want to be like. them, and uh uh that's that's where. Nuome is. He's gone too far. Okay. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. I want I want to. unpack that in a minute. But you said. you divided the envy. You divided the. Trump enviers into two group. There's. the the ones with mild envy and then. there's ones with dangerous envy. Let's. talk about the ones with mild envy. first. What are they saying about what. Trump is actually doing? Right. Well, so.

I've sat with, for example, very senior. people who are in the Biden. administration on the national security. side or the international economic side. and and and some of them have said. things like Trump's decisive. We, you. know, we would get bogged down in these. long internal discussions and we would. uh sort of sweat everything through. Now, of course, they realize that. decisive is sometimes impulsive and. sometimes it leads to bad decisions. Well, and sometimes he just changes his. mind. I mean, yes, he's decisive, but it.

feels like it's frequently performative. decisions. Well, yeah, but you know, part of part of the reason Trump is. president, and there are some reasons, is that people feel like he's a decision. maker. He gets in there. He gets things. done. You know, he's strong. And. Democrats, you know, feel like they're. perceived as taking to their figning. couches every time anything goes a. little bit wrong, worrying things. through, having lots and lots of. meetings, producing lots and lots of.

white papers, lots of process, obsessed. with process, right? Well, yeah, exactly. And you know, there are times. where that, you know, caught up and. haunted the Biden. administ look at Gaza. How many times. did BB Netanyahu have to abuse the trust. of Biden? How many times did he have to. violate international law? And the US. never changed its position. I'm not. saying Trump's position on Gaza is. particularly good. But, you know, when. BB Netanyahu starts to irritate him, as.

he did prior to this trip to the Middle. East, Trump said, "I'm not going to go. see him." But to to what extent is the. envy of Trump's apparent ability to make. a decision a result of of just a. translucent former president that that. Biden just seemed to be a will of the. wisp by the end of it. Well, you know, I. was in the Clinton administration that, you know, I know it seems like the. Hoover administration to many people, but you know, I was in the Clinton and. and there was nothing Clinton liked.

better than long seminar meetings, you. know, and Obama, too. And, you know, Hillary Clinton's campaign was famous. for drafting lengthy white papers. And, you know, there's something good about. that. There's something good about. thinking things through and. understanding their consequences. Yeah. Absolutely. But the the point is there. is a middle ground and maybe some of. these people are saying no we have to be. a little bit more decisive. We have to. move a little bit more quickly. Not you. know like a drunken sailor like Trump.

but in a in a kind of a you know sort of. halfway ground where you think it. through and then you act where you don't. overthink it. And and I I think you know. that's healthy. Another area that's. healthy uh and this does reflect back on. on the Biden thing to some extent is. that Trump often for the completely. wrong reasons, but he gives a sense of. strength. He gives a sense of I'm doing. this. If you get in my way, you're going. to get into trouble. And you know, not.

only did that not come through with some. Democrats and you didn't get a sense of, you know, there was a direction and it. was going to get done, but when people. in the Democratic party spoke out. against the president, there were never. any consequences. Well, you know, Trump's a mob boss. You don't want a mob. boss. You don't want to think that. people are going to end up at the bottom. of the East River with concrete. overshoes. But on the other hand, you. know, with Trump, you want uh or with a.

a leader, you want a sense of somebody's. going to keep their party in line. Didn't you have that with Bill Clinton? Didn't you have that with um Barack. Obama? Sometimes you did. You know, when. when Rahm Emanuel was the White House. chief of staff, he was famous for coming. down on people hard. So, there were some. people who did it and there were some. people who didn't do it, right? It's. alarm Emanuel is now talking about. looking out over.

the Is that is that a phone alarm or is. it an actual alarm? I don't want you to. burn alive as you're doing this podcast. No, I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee and that. was apparently a tornado alert. Oh, it. was a tornado alert. Okay, that's that's. very exciting and should make the rest. of the podcast really interesting. If. you go full Dorothy on us and whiz out. of the rhythm, we'll know what's. happened to you. Please, please re redo. your introduction in a moreic. way. Yeah. Okay. Go on. All right. So,

I'm just going back to Rahm Emanuel, who. was of course the enforcer known as. Obama's enforcer. This week seemed to. imply that he's going to be running for. president. He's looked out over the. array of Democratic potential candidates. and decided to put himself in the middle. of them. Is that going to is that going. to to work? I I thought he'd lost a lot. of weight, bringing my own personal. obsession about the fact that everybody. is on GLP1s. I thought he was showing. signs that he was. Well, first of all, let me disabuse you of your GLP1 theory.

Rahm Emanuel was actually a ballet. dancer before he went into politics. You're right. And he is a fitness freak. who loves, in fact, long cycling trips. Oh, he does. That's Yeah. So I, you. know, I think he comes by that. naturally. Um, look, I do I think Rahm. Emanuel is going to be the next. Democratic candidate. I don't know. Do I. think he is, however, in some respects. that kind of voice that cuts through it.

No Let's get the party in. line. I do. And I think, you know, the. the one thing that really always bugs me. about consultants is they're like, "Well, we're going to triangulate. If. you end up with a position over here, over there, well, Trump Trump should be. getting people past that, but Trump. should have people recognizing that. you've got to speak from, you know, your. heart. You've got to speak from uh or, you know, I mean, admittedly, Trump's a. maniac, so I, you know, I don't I'm not.

saying I don't think Trump speak from. his heart either, right? I mean, there's. no coherence to what he says. He he. flip-flops all the time, but he plays a. strong white man, which to a lot of. people is very reassuring and it's an. authority figure that people feel they. can respond to, right? But there is also. no filter, you know, and there with. Democrats there too many filters. I was. a very strong Kla Harris supporter. I. think Kla Harris might be a great. candidate the next. I don't know. But. you always got the sense that she was. trying to figure out, as with Hillary.

Clinton, what the right answer to the. question was, right? Well, and that if. she didn't give the right answer, she. was going to be scolded or ridiculed or. possibly cancelled. You felt her sense. of anxiety on the stage. Similarly with Tim Walsh, actually, right? And this is where I think, you. know, a little bit of healthy, thoughtful, not over-the-top Trump envy. You know, that may not be a bad thing. Let's get authentic politicians. Why is. AOC so popular? Nobody thinks she's.

reading from a white paper. She's. speaking from the heart. Why did Bernie. Sanders? Why does JB Pritsker? Why is. Jasmine Crockett? Why is even Gretchen. Whitmer, who's, you know, got a little. too close to the sun there when she was. in the Oval Office. But, you know, she. has a. 62% approval rating in Michigan. Why? Cuz she's Gretch and Whitmer. She's big. Gretch. You You get what you see there. And and that's what we need is we need. authenticity because as you know John.

Gilgood or Lawrence Olivier or somebody. once said about acting you know you know. once you can fake that you've got it. made you know the authenticity being. truthful speaking from the heart is. something that resonates with voters. Well, there's a lot of complaints in. AOCC's community that actually she. spends too much time on her oligarchy. tour and not enough time spending uh. attention to her actual constituents. But let's let's discuss that in another.

podcast. All right. So, we've analyzed. the mild envy, which is the ability to. appear as a strong person full of. convictions. And even though I would. argue that Donald Trump's convictions. are completely inauthentic, nevertheless, he plays a character that. people respond to. Let's talk about what. you framed as the dangerous envy where. Democrats go too far to copy what the. Trump uh administration is doing. Well, look, I mean the you too far is anything.

that gets you to be actually like Trump. You're right. His only convictions are. criminal convictions. But other. other you know other. other than you know that you know he's a. pathological liar. uh he's a racist, he's a misogynist, he's he's, you know, wants to support our enemies overseas. You know, he's a terrible guy who was. trying to gut the Constitution. So, you. know, getting anywhere too close to any. of those things is bad. But there is. this kind of mode among some Democrats.

to use Trump to say, "Oh, no, we must. move to the center. We must be more like. Trump. We must we need to be neoliberals. again." What What are they doing? I'll. tell you what they're really doing. You. know, let's be honest here. What they're. really doing is trying to get up close. to that kind of juicy juicy neoliberal. donor money. They want guys on Wall. Street who try to pick winners in both. parties, guys in the corporate community.

to say, "Oh yeah, this guy gets it. Let's let's let's put some money on him. Let's find a candidate that is going to. move them to the right." And just the. the last thing is you can tell because. they, you know, they're like woke is. weak. You know, woke isn't weak. That. that's buying into the Republican, you. know, the MAGA perspective. Being. tolerant and compassionate is strong.

That's that's what's made the country. great. But lots of people think that. actually woke is intolerant and it's not. strong and it's scoldy and it cancels. people. Well, now by lots of people, if. you mean MAGA, you're right because. that's the message they're sending. I. mean the voters. The voters, David, who. very clearly voted against woke. Well, there was a No, first of all, they. didn't very clearly vote against. anything. Okay. Trump won a small amount. by a small margin and the vast majority.

of people or a significant majority of. people didn't vote. So, let's not turn. Trump's victory into, you know, a. referendum on what the United States. feels on everything. Let's also not. pretend that woke issues and the culture. issues didn't have an impact because. they clearly did. People are tired of. being told they can't say anything they. want. They're frightened of being. cancelled. Okay. But is that really what. they meant? Or is what they really mean. by woke when they take one issue.

transgender athletes in athletics. Uh. you what they really mean is we want. white people to be in charge. That's. what they really mean when they're. saying they're anti-woke. Uh they want. men to be in charge. They want trad. wives. They want to turn the clock back. And their campaign against woke is like. their campaign against affirmative. action is like their campaign against. universities that have too many liberal. professors. It's a campaign against 100.

years of American progress. They've just. cleverly wrapped it in this thing where. you can say, "Well, the Democrats went. too far." Okay, maybe some Democrats. went too far, but Brown versus Board of. Education wasn't too far. Of course not. Of course not. But the fact they went. too far is precisely surely what was. underpinning what you just said about. Carmela Harris, who you liked as a. candidate, nevertheless always feeling.

as if she was about to say the wrong. thing, that she was nervous of not. saying the right thing. And that's about. the woke culture. That's about people. being frightened of being cancelled. No, that's about Democrats trying to win an. election and not, you know, not alienate. uh parts of their base and it's it's too. calculated by half and it is bad news. and it needs to be moved beyond. But I.

think the answer there is to unlike. Trump have real convictions about the. things that Democrats have long. believed. Inclusive country, creating. opportunity, being strong, being. patriotic in a healthy way. Those things. are the kind of things Republicans. attack as woke, but they're not woke. They're sensible. All right. So, give me. your uh thoughts then on Gavin Newsome.

Last night I had dinner with two uh very. prominent people in the entertainment. business. They had both started. listening to Gavin Newsome's podcast and. come round to him having thought that he. was never going to stand a chance. They're now I was surprised at how. pro-Gavin Newsome for president they. were. Well, you know, may maybe the. Democratic Party needs to distance. itself from very prominent people in the. entertainment business.

That's never going to happen. They love. those celebs. George Clooney had a. seinal role in the last election. Well, he did, but you know, Dems love them. celebs, even though the voters don't. care. Yeah, but Gavin Newsome is a. shape-shifting chameleon who once was. involved with Kimberly Gil. You know, think think about I loved I loved your. moment when you said that you thought. him starting to interview Trump as on. his podcast was actually an attempt to. win Kimberly back. Her transformation to.

MAGA is quite extraordinary. How you go. from Gavin Newsome to Dawn Jr. I do not. know. Well, I mean it's just, you know, it's it's a moth to the flame, right? She wants to be But what is the flame? The flame is going to she just wants to. be wherever she thinks it's it's light. and hot, you know? she wants to be. Oh, she's going to Greece now as ambassador, so she's going to be in the right place. Well, you know, good luck. Good. Yeah. Well, good luck with that. But having. said that, you know, Gavin Newsome is.

one who's going too far, who's meeting. with people who are racist, who's. promoting agendas that are um um MAGA. agendas, you know, and it's it's one. thing to be open, you know, it's one. thing to be Gretchen Whitmer and to say. here's what needs to be done in Michigan. in order to be responsive to the people. of Michigan. Uh and and to to be. authentic in that way. He just seems to. me to be a fraud. Uh I've met him once. or twice. And I I came away with this.

guy was too slick by half. Ronald Reagan. came from being governor of California. He was slick. He also had great hair. I. do think great hair. You go for all that. hair product. I strong I hope no. Democrat ever runs with that much hair. product. I think it'd be great for the hair. products business. I mean, Donald Trump. is good for the hair products business, right? He's figured out you cannot have. a bald president in this. But that's not.

even his hair. It's like a chipmunk on. his head. What's What's going on with. Donald Trump's? It It isn't. It's like a. confection. I actually think it might be. edible his hair. I bet if you got near. to it and licked it, it would be like. that golden sugar, sponge sugar. Really? Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe it would leave. your most disgusting idea. Eating Donald. Trump's hair will end licking. I just. said licking. Look at the look at the. lick. Go look at the data on this. podcast. It'll end here with licking. Donald Trump's hair. And it should.

frankly either that or you're going to. get spun out of the room in the tornado. because I can hear the rain. It could. happen. It could happen. And if the last. thought I have on this earth is licking. Donald Trump's hair, I will come back. and haunt you. So So you think Gavin. Newsome genuinely doesn't have a chance. here? He's too slick. He's too. attractive. It's too much hair. He's got. a chance because Donald Trump is. president and that means anybody can win. an election in the United States. And we. all I mean we you know we've never.

picked the best person for the job. We. always reflect some underlying social. change. But here's my theory about 2026. and 2028 and that is the consultants. don't matter. The politicians themselves. don't even matter. What matters is that. Donald Trump and this administration are. going to cause pain in the lives of tens. of millions of Americans and they're. going to go to PTA meetings. They're. going to go to local local town halls. They're going to talk to their neighbors.

at barbecues and say, "I lost my job. because of Donald Trump. I lost my. healthc care coverage because of Donald. Trump. I lost my ability to get the. operation I was hoping to get at the VA. because of Donald Trump. And that will. defeat him because his policies are. terrible. And at the end of the world, at the end of the the day, according to. the United States Constitution, but also. in reality, the top job in the US. government is voter. The president works.

for the vote. Trump doesn't really get. this, but he is all of our employees, right? He is our employee. and you know. the people who are going to be alienated. by these terrible policies um are the. ones who are going to tip the the d the. direction of the election. So, how come. Donald Trump still has the Republican. party in his thr? Because there are. Republicans, congressmen and senators. out there who agree with you, who know.

that a lot of these policies are going. to hit their own constituents very badly. and yet they are unable to say no to. Donald Trump. I don't It looks to me. it's a little bit like an airplane uh or. maybe a house in a tornado. You know, Dorothy getting spun up and the pieces. of the house start flying off and one. moment it looks like a house and then a. couple moments later it doesn't look. like a house anymore. Right? So, look at. the Republican party. Elon left and Elon. said, "I'm not going to spend any more. money on politics." Okay, that's a piece.

coming off of the airplane because he. was the biggest single donor last time. around. Right. And and and he said he. didn't like the big beautiful bill. Right. Right. And but you know he is. moving away from that a little bit. Last. night Trump went after or this is we're. recording this on Friday but you he went. after the federalist society and said. Leonard Leo was a sleas bag and so forth. and it shows Trump is sort of moving on. to the postelection part of his career.

But do you think telling the head of the. But do you think saying that the head of. the Federalist Society isn't going to. have is a sleas isn't going to have a. consequence? That piece is going to come. off of this thing. You know, you had of. all people Josh Holly saying he didn't. like parts of this bill. Um so he is. pulling away gradually between now. Is. he pulling away? Is he pulling away or. is that actually him pretending that. he's stronger than he really is? Again,

performative. I don't know. But what I. do know is this. At some point, and. Trump is desperately, desperately trying. to fight this, but at some point, people. are going to realize he's a lame duck. He will never run again. He is not the. candidate in 2028. I sure hope the. Democrats realize that sooner rather. than later cuz all these Democrats are. like, "Well, this is how you got to run. against Donald Trump." But you're not. going to be running against Donald. Trump. All right. So, let me let me hold. that thought. As you said, we're.

recording this on a Friday. Elon Musk. announced this week that he was firing. himself after firing tens of millions of. government workers. Should the should. the Democrats be using Elon either. bringing him into the party using the X. platform and using his money and being. utterly cynical about it? Or should they. be using the fact that he came out. against the big beautiful bill and he's. had enough of politics and he's not. going to spend any more money in it as. an indication of exactly what's wrong.

with Donald Trump's second. administration? The latter certainly, you know, the. Democrats are getting mileage out of. Elon Musk thanks to Elon Musk. Stick. with it, right? Doge was a disaster. I. think you have a piece in the in the in. the beast uh by David Gardner giving him. an F as his as his grade. And I think that was a generous grade. um you know you know because not only.

did he not achieve any goals of savings. I think net net we're going to discover. that actually the costs of government. went up because of what he did he caused. chaos he alienated people in and out of. the government now we're having stories. in the New York Times which are just. mindblowing literally and figuratively. stories about the amount of drugs he. takes about his ketamine addiction that. story is breaking as we're yes as we're. recording recording this that he's had. all sorts of medical problems because of.

his drug taking. Yes. Right. He's I. don't know what his is bladder problems. I don't know that that's a symptom of. ketamine actually of taking too much. ketamine. Well, you know, I mean, I. we're not going into the stories that. broke yesterday about the throppple. between Elon Musk, Steven Miller, and. Steven Miller's wife, who is leaving the. government to work with Musk on an I. Musk is a disaster. He's a disaster in.

Tesla. The SpaceX rockets are blowing. up. Stock prices are going down. Ju just. if the if Democrats want to use Musk, just say Musk. Everybody knows what it. means. It's bad news. It was a bad. choice. It was catering to the wrong. people. And it's an example of Trump's. government by for and of billionaires. that sends the message to everybody that. it's not good for government. It's not. good for average people. It's not good.

for the budget. It's not good for. America's standing in the world. So, just show them. Let report the facts. The rest will take care of itself. Well, that's what we're trying to do in the. beast. Over report the facts and. underreact because the facts speak for. themselves. Exactly. All right. So, David, final question. If you are. putting money on it right now, and I I. know this is fantasy politics, but who. do you see emerging? I mean, one of the.

things that people do keep saying about. the Democratic party is there is no. leader. There's no one to coalesce. around. There's no one who seems to be. able to. effectively match Trump ego for ego in. in a way that you were sort of talking. about earlier on in the podcast. Who do. you see emerging? Um, well, first of all, Trump's not. going to be the candidate. And secondly, they're But they need to start now, right? No. Well, the Democrat they do.

need to start and they need to start now. for a number of reasons. One, that. that's how long it takes to put together. a presidential campaign in this country. Two, uh Trump is doing so much. destruction that one of the things the. Democrats are going to have to think. about in advance is how do you rebuild? And you can't rebuild by just saying. we're going to go back to Joe Biden. times. You have to actually have a new. vision for what the government looks. like. But here's the thing. Doing a. search for a leader isn't going to. produce the leader. What's going to. produce the leader is the leader.

leading. That's why people like AOC, people like JB Pritsker, people like. Jasmine Crockett, people like Gretchen. Whitmer, people who stand up and are. heard, Jamie Rasin, you know, people go. out, they stand up, they're heard, and. people say, "Yeah, I want more of that.". I think decisive in all of this is going. to be what happens in a year and a half. Because in a year and a half, in all. likelihood, assuming they haven't sort. of cooked the books and we don't ever. have a fair election again, the. Democrats are going to win the midterms. They're going to take over the House.

They might take over the Senate. What's. going to happen when they take over the. House? They're going to be all sorts of. investigations and hearings and reveals. of big Trump crimes. Sometimes those. kind of activities produce um stars. And. so, we'll have to look at that and see. whether it produces a star. I think. ultimately the candidate that's going to. be strongest will be a governor. Won't. be from the beltway. It won't be. somebody from Central Casting like Gavin. Newsome. It'll be somebody who seems.

authentic and strong and compassionate. Uh and in all the best sense of the. word, somebody who's focusing on uh. tolerance, growth, strength, opportunity, and leadership. Could that. be a JB Pritsker? Maybe. Could that be. uh an AOC? Probably not. Maybe because. she's out there and she is actually. leading now. Whatever people may say, the reason we're talking about her is. she's out there and she's leading. Could. it be Wes Moore of Maryland? Could it be.

Gretchen Whitmer? Could it be Josh. Shapiro? Could it be Andy Basher? Could. it, you know, there are a lot of people. out there. It could be one of Could it. be Kla Harris if she just sort of learns. from past experience? It could be. I. don't I don't know. But it's going to be. somebody who stands up, doesn't follow. the party line, speaks from the heart, is willing to break a few eggs in making. the omelette, is willing to piss a few. people off. They can't appear to be.

captive to the to the consultants. And I. one of the things they've got to do, and. I just beg everybody to do this, is stop. getting cornered by labels. This is the. left. This is progressive. this is. centrist that all that stuff doesn't. matter anymore. Every single issue that. you think of as a progressive issue, fairer taxes, taking care of the. climate, sensible gun control. regulation, um uh. uh health care for everybody, every.

single issue is supported by 75 to 80%. of Americans. If I gave you the list of. issues, you would say those are. progressive left. They're actually. mainstream majority issues in this. country. What does that mean for. Democrats? Own it. Own the issue. Oh, 75% of Americans support fairer taxes, more taxes on the on the rich, uh uh uh. more safety net for people who are uh in. need of support, better schools, not.

killing our universities, not dumbing. down our high schools, sensible gun. control regulation, caring about. climate, not gutting our national parks. and putting pipelines where, you know, wherever there's a tree, you So those. are the things that are supported by. most people. Own that, lead that, speak. to the needs of the people, but make. sure it seems like because it actually. does come from your heart. Well said.

Well, let's hope some people are. listening. David, it was Harvard's. graduation this week. We know that Trump. has created a an enemy in Harvard. What. are your thoughts about how Harvard. should react? Well, I think Harvard has begun to react. in the right way, you know, because they. are standing up to him. They they. hesitated a little bit at first, but. they are standing up to him now because. they realize that what he is doing is. not, you know, waging a war against. anti-semitism. It has nothing to do with.

anti-semitism or waging a war against. DEI. Uh even though DEI is fundamentally. a good thing. What he's doing is he's. trying to, as he is doing across the. government, uh, chill free expression in. our society, undermine the first. amendment to our constitution. And he's. doing it by attacking Harvard, attacking. other universities, attacking the. Kennedy Center, attacking research. studies that use the word climate or. that use the word trans. You know, even.

if it means trans fats, which has. happened, you know, people have done a. study on trans fats and they get. wouldn't want trans fats because he eats. a lot of fast food. Yeah. No. Yeah. No, no. And and all I can say is may he. continue to eat as many trans fats as he. possibly can consume. But, you know, Harvard has stood up to this and I think. they're going to win. going after the. school that has produced the most, you. know, judges and the most lawyers and. the best ones is is not the clever anti-.

elite play that he thinks it is because. there are laws and they can't go after. them. But some of what he is doing is. also so profoundly destructive that we. don't even fully realize the. consequences. I'll take something else. from this past week where they the. DeMarco Rubio who's, you know, three. weeks ago we would have said is a wet. noodle who's getting ahead because he's. a wet noodle. But now he's really part. of the inner uh menacing cabal at the. center of this administration. Said.

we're going to go after Chinese visas. We're not going to give visas to Chinese. students. Well, I got news from Marco. Rubio. There are studies that show that. among America's advanced AI. researchers, 40% have their undergraduate degree from. a Chinese university. What that means if. you don't let these Chinese students in. the US where they come here to do well. and stay is we are going to gut our.

ability to compete on the most important. new technologies of tomorrow. But, you. know, it's worse in that in in in some. respects because they've also announced. that what they're going to do is they're. going to screen the social media. activity of people applying for these. visas, which led one Chinese guy on the. internet to say, I am now realizing that. my social media presence is being. scrutinized by two governments, by the.

Chinese government, right, and the US. government. And you know, and that that. is that's where we are right now. We we. have an authoritarian state. Harvard's. the target, but I think at the end of. the day, Trump's going to wish he picked. a different target. We had a report in. the beast this week that said another of. the reasons that Trump is going after. Harvard is because he applied and he got. rejected. You got to hope that he got. rejected because, you know, despite the. fact that he had some money, this is a. guy who is an academic failure who.

apparently didn't even do the work um. that he was supposed to do at Penn, didn't take his own SATs and whatever. He went he went as an undergrad to. Wharton. He went to Forom first and then. he went as an undergrad to Wharton. But. that's why I said Penn Warden. It's all. the same, right? But the but the but. significant that he didn't get an MBA. from Wharton Business School. So he. talks as if he did, but actually he went. as an undergrad. That's the only reason. I raise it. No. No. Well, that's that's. absolutely true. I I also understand. that Baron didn't get into Harvard. Uh.

but you know, a lot of the guys around. Trump, you know, if you ever want Jared. Kushner went to Harvard, famously went. to Harvard. Yeah. And a lot of the. people around Trump and at senior levels. in the Republican party went to Harvard. And frankly, that's an indictment of. Harvard uh that is more damning than. anything that Trump's going to come up. with. Well, and I think a lot of them. went to the business school, right? Or. the law school, which is slightly. different to going to Harvard undergrad, if we're really passing it here. You. have really picked up really paid. attention subcurrence of uh Eastern US.

elitism. That's absolutely right. How. can I not? I'm originally No, no, because everybody I know who ever went. to Harvard, you know, first of all, they. they try not to mention it. They try to. be very subtle about it and they say. they say things like, "Oh, I'm a Boston. Red Sox fan." Right. And it's like you. what? Oh, you that Right. Right. And. it's like that's just their way of. saying, "Oh, yeah. I went, "Well, where'd you go to school?" "Uh, I went. to school in Cambridge." Oh. Oh, you. went to school in But then if you say,

"Well, I went to Harvard Business School. or I went to Harvard Law School." They. go, "And yes, I I went to the college.". Yeah. I I went to undergraduate. You. know, and and it it you're you're right. There is a certain form of snobbery. there. The thing I can I just point out the. thing that I really find amusing is when. people go on those week management. courses, weekl long management courses. at Harvard Business School and then when. you look at their LinkedIn profile, it's. the first thing you read. It says. Harvard Business School and you're like, "Oh, interesting. I wouldn't have. plugged you. I wouldn't have thought of. you as someone at at Harvard Business.

School." Yeah. No, same is true with the. Harvard Extension programs like, you. know, fisheries or whatever. It's a. luxury brand as Scott Galloway would. say. Well, well, but you know, I think. on and a serious point about that, if. the United States makes it hard for. students to come here, not only are we. not going to get students, we're not. going to get scientists, we're going to. lose competitiveness, but a lot of these. brands are going to up themselves and. disconnect. geographically. And they'll have.

universities. I mean, you know, there's. NYU in Abu Dhabi, there's an NYU in. China, right? you're going to start to. see more of these universities locate. themselves overseas because people want. the brand and if they can't come to the. US they won't come to the US and some. boy somebody's going to say hey we no we. want them to come here this makes us a. stronger country uh but you know well. and the president of China's daughter. was her undergraduate degree was from. Harvard I mean Nell pointed this out in.

a column she did last week and she She. had who also went to Harvard, you know, let's be true. You know, Nell also went. to Harvard. So, she and she's been very. dogged about reporting. She she did. excellent reporting about the protests. there last year. Uh but her point was. that she'd assumed that the most. important American brands in the world. were probably McDonald's or Subway. Sandwich. And in fact, it turned out to. be Harvard. And the idea that you take. America's most popular brand and.

diminish it as Trump has done is is. bewildering. There will be a Harvard long after there. is a Trump. There will be respect for. Harvard for centuries into the future. People will do everything in their power. to forget that Trump ever existed. David. Rothkco, thank you very much. Always fun. to talk to you and let's do it again. soon, please. Anytime. You're the boss. I'll be here when you need. In my. dreams, I'm the boss, David. In my.

dreams. I felt that we ended on a note of. optimism there, which is a good thing. given the uh drama around American. politics at the moment. But David has. such wisdom. He's worked in an. administration. He understands the. actual difficulty of administering. government policies and I love talking. to him. If you have been, thank you for. listening. Feel free to subscribe to the. Daily Beast, subscribe to this podcast,

and please leave us a comment. We really. read them. I mean, we got 5,000 comments. uh and counting for Michael Wolf's last. podcast. And the writers read the. comments, too. And it does help us think. about what else you want to hear about. And I love the many threads of. conversations that that go on within the. commentary. So have a good week and of. course remember be beast. And this. podcast was produced by Devon Rodriino, Anna von Ersen, and it was edited by Dan. Jacobson.