This Is What Trump Is Plotting Instead of Death | Inside Trump's Head

If he died suddenly and in office, that might well transform. Donald Trump into an iconic historic figure. Would Donald Trump prefer to die in office. and be remembered as a president who died in office? He is not thinking that that's the only options. He's thinking that the options are he's going to go on for indefinitely, and he is no doubt already plotting how, from Mar-A-Lago, he continues to be the dominant figure in American politics.

It's like when you remove any dominant. figure dictators or I think, breathing relief, the quiet will be extraordinary. People will go, well, breathe again. History starts over. Michael. Joanna, we are recording this. in the middle of Lindsey Graham ceremonial lying in state.

We are. I'm trying to think. What? It's not his funeral, but he is being. His coffin is being placed in the rotunda, I believe of the capital. in this is a. a ceremony. privilege accorded, I think. Definitely. Well, actually, I don't know who according to, but I think great man, great man.

I mean, is this this I mean, I would not have expected. of this for Lindsey Graham, frankly. Well, death turns out to be a great PR coup. So sudden death, sudden death linger in Mitch McConnell. Yeah. Forget about it. But no, but but literally two weeks. When did he die last? Two weeks ago. Three weeks ago, I think. Well, whenever the last time he was alive, Lindsey.

Graham was largely regarded as a, you know, as a as a hopeless sellout suck. up, I mean, an embarrassment. I mean, here was a person who who I mean, we know all of the things. that he said about the genuine things he said about Donald Trump. And then in order to maintain his own relevance, and also. certainly quite a number of people in the Trump orbit.

have suggested to me in order to avoid Trump's. slurs against gay people. he sucked up to Donald Trump. But Donald Trump does slur gay people, but not Lindsey. That's the point. So in order to avoid that, in order to avoid the. getting on on Trump's bad gay side, okay, so.

to avoid exposure, in fact, he it's not even a social trump. It's not even exposure. Trump does this thing that suggests suggesting he calls people. And he said said, you know, I hear. there's something a lot of funny stuff about Lindsey, a lot, a lot of stuff. You hearing that and everybody. So he's that's so that's how he gets the information he goes. and that's how he spreads the slur. Well, in death Lindsey Graham is getting a lot of solemnity.

We've got Presidents Netanyahu and Zelensky coming into town. They're both having meetings with Trump today. But are you actually saying that this is a PR coup for Lindsey Graham? Yeah. No, of course it is. Literally. So he has gone from a person in embarrassment. And I think that this he was widely seen as this. I mean, he was shameless in his suck up re and. and now. here he is, a statesman of our time, a statesman of our time.

And his sister, 11 years younger, whom he adopted after both. her parents died, is sitting there ready to. I find this absolutely remarkable, this Napo dynastic politics. I mean, she's going to inherit his Senate seat. It looks like it seems somewhat ironic that a that a Brit would find. No, that's why I moved here. That's why I moved here.

I mean, to to get rid of that stuff. And then of course, you have the bushes, you have the Clintons crying. Politics always has been, always in, in, in this country. a strong dynastic theme. Well, do you think Darlene Graham is going to win the seat? Because now we've got Mark Sanford, the former governor of South Carolina is coming out to run for Senate seat. I don't know what he's done since he stepped down as governor.

I mean, he needs a job. He needs a job. He wants to be back in power. He wants the fun of it all. I think that she probably will. I think I think the I mean, there are two steps here, you know, there is the there's the first step of the primary. in which if she gets 50%, then she doesn't have to go to a runoff. So that that'll be the interesting, interesting thing. But the the Trump endorsement is very powerful. Why did Trump endorse her so early?

Why didn't he see who the field was going to flush out? I think he liked the story actually. I think I think that there's you know, Trump is a movie of the week guy. Right. You said that last week. Yeah. You said that on Saturday. So this is the hallmark movie of the week. Yeah. This sentimental aspect of of this I think it's I think it works. Works for Trump. Now. remember it works for Trump's. Now might he shift on this.

Might if she is not doesn't. is not obsequious in the way that her brother was. Right. Yeah. He could I mean I think it's I think it's yet unclear. because we hardly know this person. Darlene. She's just sort of, sort of. She just entered the stage a little shock on her face and. And could she blow it? Yeah. Easily. America has always built its way forward through disruption,

through reinvention, through people overcoming the challenges before them. Today, the idea shaping America's future are being built collaboratively. by communities, innovators and entrepreneurs all looking. in the same direction in storefronts, community centers and towns. Most people drive through without stopping. People are using technology and creativity to solve real problems. in practical ways building opportunity, optimism and momentum from the ground up.

We're already writing America's next chapter. We're building what's next now? So when we were watching, we had the prayer. And then a lady from South Carolina got up and you said, I can't watch these people. And I said, when you say these people, what do you mean? And you said, I said, morons, please extrapolate. I don't know who this woman was, but I was just signaled by the way.

that that by our producer, that she's a congresswoman. But there are congresswoman from South Carolina. I'm sure, I'm sure, but it doesn't matter. I mean, she she, you know, and she came up and she spoke with everything she said. out of her mouth was was valueless and expected. Lindsey is not only the, you know, a saint. and as ascended to heaven, but but he is the. everyone and every one of our.

little cities was was loved, blah blah blah blah. He's gone up so that great golf course in the sky, I think he's probably paying, playing 18 rounds, looking down on us and laughing in that fruity laugh. Yeah, I mean, I think most people, when they speak it, funerals. default to a moron setting. But. I have not spoken of very many funerals, but I've spoken at a lot of funerals. Do you descend into that? No, no no, no I'm fantastic.

I get them laughing. Oh you do you. That's what you have to do. I spoke Helen Gurley Brown's funeral because she died shortly. after I became editor of cosmopolitan, and it was an unbelievable line up of speakers. Now just let me interrupt, because I actually believe. Helen Gurley Brown, for a good part of my life, was probably one of the most famous women in America. She is now, I suspect, an utterly forgotten woman. But but she was she.

And she was famous for writing a book in. the early 1960s called sex and the Single Girl. And then she went on to be to make cosmopolitan magazine. one of the most successful magazines in the country. But she was a are you mansplaining Helen Gurley Brown? To me, you are mansplaining HTB to, well, you you were not. You just were assuming that people knew who she was. Oh I was going to go on and I was pointing out that she has.

entirely forgotten. Well, she probably is entirely for me, except for you. And I haven't forgotten her because she did an incredible job. with Cosmo and she took over. You know, it was a small literary magazine, and when she took it over, it was the same year that the pill was, what is the. word sanctioned or whatever, and came onto the market, really? And so she rode that wave and created a phenomenal magazine. And I've always thought she didn't quite get the credit.

she should have done for creating the template for the modern magazine. But my point is, I was a super sexy person. That's what she was. She was a super sexy person, had a lot of sex of all kinds. I also wonder if she actually had a lot of sex. She was married to David Brown. Who who himself was having a lot of sex. Yeah, it was it was a sex positive time. I think the term now is sex positive, not super sex. But I remember, Liz Smith, the then gossip.

columnist, spoke, and so did, Barbara Walters. I had to follow Barbara Walters. And Barbara Walters was absolutely brilliant. And her last line was of other people have had a lot of sex. Well, right. Good point. Yes. Very good point. Okay. Well, and I got up there and I had been given a letter. She used to write loads and loads of letters, and I'd been given one of her letters that she wrote home to her. mum about how she had met Jacqueline.

Suzanne, the novelist who at one point was very famous. And now everybody's forgotten. Beginning of a lot of sex, also a lot of sex. And I got up and I read the letter, and as I got up there, I thought, there's. no way in hell I am able to follow Barbara Walters because she'd been hilarious. And so I had to completely change the tone. And so I read this little letter, and by the end of it, I almost choked up. And I never choke up. I haven't cried for years. I'm just not a weeper.

And by the end of that, I had almost cried. Well, that's what funerals are, you know, as I say, when I met her for lunch for the first time. Yeah. Good. It was a very good. They brings everybody. Everybody. So when. if you die. Well, when. Not me. But the more, more likely Donald Trump. You know that that's that's interesting. I mean, if he, if he died suddenly and in office,

he would be. that would that might well transform Donald Trump. into a iconic historic figure. So would he like that? Does Donald Trump just want to go on. and on and on, or does he want a long, slow decline like Mitch McConnell? Mitch McConnell, by the way, released another photograph of himself. this this week, yesterday. And nobody believed it. Everybody was I just put out a video, man. Just say ten second video.

You're everybody's got an iPhone now Mitch. These thing or an Android phone, everybody has a phone. You can do a little video on it. All you have to do is say thank you for your well-wishes. I'm working hard at rehab. I'll be back soon. You can't do it. You can't speak. Do you think that's true? Yeah, I think he's probably. I think he's had a stroke and. And the impairment is. substantially severe. So why don't they just say that? Why are they pretending? Is it to get the April, the August the 3rd deadline,

after which they don't have to put someone new in? I don't I mean, I don't know, it seems ridiculous to me, but it also seems like. I don't know I don't know the answer. Nobody knows the answer. Okay, so let's go back to Donald Trump. Would Donald Trump prefer, given his druthers, as if we have any choice over this, to die in office and be remembered. as a president who died in office because most of them don't?

He? He is not thinking that. that's the only options. He's thinking that the options are he's going to go on for indefinitely. He's going to leave office, he's going back to Mar-A-Lago. And then and he is no doubt already plotting how from Mar-A-Lago, he continues to be the dominant figure in American politics. I just realized that we haven't told people what else. we're planning to talk about. As usual, we just got straight into it.

We forgot to tell them, please subscribe. We forgot to tell them who we are because we have lots of new people. who come to the podcast every week. You're Michael Wolff, you write books about Trump, I'm Joanna Coles, I'm the chief content officer. at The Daily Beast, and we're going to discuss JD Vance book. We're going to discuss Laura, Lumos, bizarre 180 on Ukraine. and the discovery that she is in fact Ukrainian or roots are Ukrainian. Where should we start Trump's death?

Well, let's finish off on Trump's death. Yeah, we had Kurt Anderson on the show on Sunday. who's written a new novel, and in it he imagines. Trump's death and he's coming down the escalator at Trump Tower. This takes place in 2035. So he's 90 and he has a massive stroke and just collapses. And all his MAGA fans think he's been assassinated. and raw onto the street in Fifth Avenue and start smashing cars.

And it's the beginning of the Civil War. Well, that's that's interesting to think that Trump could go on. for another ten years or almost ten years. after he leaves office. That would be eight years. after he leaves office. Yeah. And it's interesting that he might mean. that would be the that would certainly be the Trump plan. I'm going to leave office in 2028,

2029 and return to Mar-A-Lago. And I am going to to do from Mar-A-Lago what I did from the last time. they sent me back to Mar-A-Lago, which is to continue. to dominate the, the American political landscape. Is that possible? Well, I mean, the truth is, thank thank God for old age.

It, it creeps up on all of us. As a matter of fact, somebody's somewhat off topic here. I just was asked by by a publication. that will go nameless to, to write a to write a piece, short piece about something that I am optimistic about. And, Lord, what could that possibly be? And I said, I'm optimistic about Donald Trump's death.

And, and I and I actually disagree with Kurt. I think I think, I think when that happens that that that moment. and it's like when you remove any dominant figure, dictators. or I think people breathe a big sigh of relief, a big exhale. Yeah. I think it's like the world clears, it's suddenly and with Trump, you know, all of this, oh, the quiet will be extraordinary.

People will go, they'll breathe again. I'll say it's a it's a kind of like, okay, yeah, let's, let's history starts over again. Well we'll see when we. We'll see. You know who I think sees the Bell Alliance. as death is good for some people. That is a good line. I went to interview Saul Bellow once up in Vermont, and I asked him if he had any regrets because he was in his 80s at this point, and he said his regrets were around women.

I was going to say, did he make a pass? No, he didn't make a pass. That I think he was too old to make. Well, as a matter of fact, that I mean, that makes sense. If you've ever read a saw bellow novel, I have, and I've reread them, I find them very dense. Oh, yes. No, I find them like it's just just bliss. I was wondering if I'd made a pass at him. Actually, no, no, I'm joking, I didn't, I didn't, but, but I enjoyed. I enjoyed meeting him.

We had a sort of five hour lunch, and his much younger. wife was sort of hovering in the background. And I remember we ate blueberries from his garden. Anyway, I'm digress. Anyway, he's my favorite writer of all American modern American writers, and I would prefer a man who's completely gone out of fashion now, John Updike. I would have John Updike over Saul Bellow any day, completely out of fashion. Well, they're all out of fashion. They're all out of fashion. All right. So let's let's come back to, you know, who I think.

is thinking very hard about Donald Trump's death. I don't. JD Vance oh, JD Vance, we can now talk. an interesting thing about vice presidents because, you know, they live. for the death of of the president, but they can't think about that. I mean, they can't. they certainly can't give any intimation that they are thinking about. Of course not. And in their own minds, it must be a weird, a weird thing.

to be wishing for the death of someone, I mean, also. Well, I've always thought that was the weirdest thing about King Charles. Actually, that King Charles is in. entire life was wishing for the death of his mother. so he finally could get to be king and be the boss of everybody. And yet you're wishing for your mother to die at the same time. Very odd situation, right? Long live the king with him, though you could really see it. Let's go. Let's, let's let's move on.

I know he was 74 by the time he took over. And then poor man, two years later was diagnosed with cancer. And we don't know what kind of cancer, but we know he can live with it, even if it's not curable. Strange. Anyway, I think JD Vance is thinking a lot about Donald Trump's death. and what I found most extraordinary about his book, communion. And I know you've read it now, too, because we were texting about it. is how little there is about Donald Trump in this book.

It's the most remarkable absence, as is his political life. There's a whole range range of things. that are not in this book. There's very little about his. his mean, he's. a kind of curse skirting over his marriage. and absolutely. not addressing the fact that his wife's family is an immigrant.

family amidst his general sourness about all immigrants. I mean, which is also another. another point about his conversion to Catholicism, which in itself. he kind of skirts over, although the book is actually about his search for God. So. So what is the book about? Because I got to the end of it and I thought, what is this book about? I think you're completely right that everybody who's running for president. has to write a book.

I can't wait for Pete headsets. It's interesting. It's two things. I mean, it is it is just a straightforward campaign book. And and every issue that you can think of, he takes off a position on economics. Yeah. Time, elder care. You know, the the spring time. Screen time. Oh. Screen time, I said, well, I'm sure he's going to change spring. That's. Yes. So all of those things but the, the, the.

stated purpose. of the book is as though he wants to do something more. I mean, let's remember, JD Vance is a, you know, super look at me best boy hot dog, you know, full of you know, I got to be the best. I got to be the top of the class. I got to be the president. And in this. So it's like I gotta write a campaign book. But I got to make it somehow more meaningful than a campaign.

Well, than anybody else's campaign book. So I will talk about I will write a campaign book, but it will be under the rubric of my search for God. Right. Which also is a good campaign. that that gives me a campaign advantage, too, because I'm going to have to win over the the God people. And I mean, I can't. Are you going to talk to the base? You've Angelica's right slash people that believe in God.

So so that's there and and it's. I mean, it's a weird thing because this is a real book. This is a kind of at least one thread. through this book is the searcher is a searchers book. I am looking I am not satisfied, I am not. I mean, this is essentially what he's saying. I'm not satisfied with what what I have, what the meaning I have found in life. I am I am an unhappy person, you know, and there's briefly talks about he could go to a therapist,

but no, he doesn't want to do that. And he goes to a therapist briefly, right. And then decides that the therapist isn't helpful enough and that it's it's. whiny to talk about yourself and that the therapist somehow. lets him off and sort of is understanding, actually, of what his background has been, which has been up and down. family of addicts living with his grandmother, etc. and what he wants is more responsible, more responsibility for self in a way. Well I don't yeah. I mean that's theory.

He wants God, whatever God is, which then becomes germane to this, to this, to this book on what he thinks God is. and how you in his particular path to God along the way, as he's dealing with screen time and elder care and taxes and, and and so you you have this you.

the juxtaposition and it's an awkward. juxtaposition is my, my search. for spirituality at the same time and in the same context. that I'm really climbing up the greasy pole of success. And, and and that's what also he is opposed to. I mean, essentially the message. Maybe the central message is, is here is I,

JD Vance, the most ambitious person in America? I'm a I'm against ambition. And yes, the mission will make you miserable. Ambition does not bring you happiness. And what brings you happiness is is a good domestic, you know, a nice domestic life, a nice church going domestic life. Now, I don't have that. I mean, I don't have that, but JD Vance doesn't have that. As a matter of fact, I can't think of anything probably more.

at odds and remote from that. then than having a serious political career, right? I mean, a serious political career means you do not have a domestic life. Your church going life is a phony church going life. I so it's a it's again. this sense of a guy who is at odds with himself at every turn. Well, and what I found most extraordinary about it.

And you're right that this is a campaign book. Is that what he's trying to do, incredibly obviously, is separate himself from Donald Trump. So I was going to read a couple of bits from it. So he he picks up, there's a chapter called When in Rome. He's been at the Munich conference where he's, you know, basically announced that he doesn't really believe in Europe as, as it is. And he goes, If Munich was a whirlwind, what came after.

I returned was a category five hurricane. Though I had heard that President Trump might be interested in having me join. his ticket in the national campaign now underway, I figured it was a long shot. I only had a year of political experience as a white man from Ohio. I added no diversity to the ticket and didn't deliver a swing state. Okay, cut to the most fascinating. part of the process was also the most absurd. The in-person vetting with me, my wife and a campaign attorney.

You never cheated on your wife, he asked. I haven't, but I assume that people who have don't just admit it to a stranger. Sorry, I have to ask. Yeah, I know now. Of course, this is for, you know, to be the vice president, Donald Trump, who's cheated on everybody and everything, including his taxes. Anyway, the next the next paragraph. on the morning of the 2024 Republican National Convention, President. Trump called me and asked me to join him on the ticket.

My family's lives changed instantly from the media spotlight. to the ever present Secret Service detail. The weekend. after I was nominated, I tried to go to the grocery store, but if anyone there didn't already know. who I was. They surely noticed the 40 armed guards surrounding me. That's about as much as you get. I mean, most let me go into this in real detail and actually let me hold on. Let me just finish. It's almost as if it's not really that big a deal, that Donald Trump selected him. to be his vice president.

We know this is, to date, the crowning glory of this unbelievably ambitious man's life. And what he realizes now, it is a millstone around his neck. If he is going to run in 2028 and he is trying to do what. Kamala Harris failed to do with Joe Biden, which is put a wedge between them. Absolutely. But let me just fill in. This is this is. This isn't what happened. Okay. Come on. So the Munich conference is in February, right?

He's not selected to be the vice president until July. So actually, what is happening? It's not a whatever words he. What? What's happened to you? What is? You making noises? I just forgot the word. The word the the. Well, he says I heard that President Trump might be interested in having. No, no, no, just after he gets back in this, as he tells the story. after asked him to join the have asked me to join him on the ticket.

Well, no. After I got back from the from from the the the security conference in Munich. in some a maelstrom or you know, as though everything started five hurricane. Yes. Okay. There. That's not true. Actually. What happens is he gets back in, then begins. the serious campaigning to get this job. It's not things that happen to him. He's trying to make this happen. And his people, Peter Thiel, for foremost.

among them, are beginning to lobby the. the set of people around Donald Trump. So so this is all completely disingenuous. Completely. I mean, it literally, it doesn't happen until, as I say, until July. And and it's unclear that this is going to going. to happen to him at this point. Trump is not particularly convinced.

Trump doesn't you know, he's he would not be, I would say, among the top. among the top three people yet and then by a process elimination. and by the process of of who wants it and who doesn't. I mean, he does get it. I mean, he's always sort of been a contender. He's the candidate of, well, Peter Thiel and the technology people, but also of Trump's son John Junior. Yes. So he's he is certainly in the mix.

But that doesn't happen. So his life does not transform the category. The hurricane doesn't start until that happens in July. Well, and also that that he's part of trying to make the hurricane. happen, that he's behaving as if it doesn't to him. It doesn't have no agency. Actually, yes. But in fact, he's hustling as hard as he possibly can. Because hardest thing you learn from this book is he is a hustler. He's always hustling to get the best price. I mean, he wants to go to the fancy church.

Totally. I mean, he's using the Catholic Church in this case. Well, okay. And this is something else. This from the from the the point of view of the theology in this book. I mean, so, so JD Vance grows up in an evangelical household. and is a devoted evangelical himself. and then becomes disillusioned. and then becomes an atheist, I mean, kind of a militant atheist.

And and then that doesn't work for, for him. And he goes to law school, he goes to Yale and, and I think he. thinks, thinks that the Ivy League might, might, might save him. And that doesn't quite work. He's still not not satisfied, not happy, not requited in his soul. And he becomes a. a venture capitalist and I. so I guess it's then I'll get rich money will give me salve and solve my issue. Right? And then he goes back to being and then he goes back to religion.

But he doesn't go back to to evangelical religion or to to. to being a Protestant. He becomes a Roman Catholic now. And and there's no real explanation. You're looking for God. Why would you choose? Why would you, an evangelical, someone who is, who is holy, whose political career is about to be invested in,

in evangelical evangelicalism. and, and essentially the, the white South? Why would you become pick a Roman Catholic. god to be yours? And it's not clear. He doesn't really explain this. And it's one of those other contradictions. I mean, the Roman Catholic Church, again, amid all of his sourness about immigrants, Roman.

Catholic churches and immigrant church, he doesn't deal with this. The Roman Catholic Church, actually. Then then curiously, his models, his religious model, chief religious model remains Charlie Kirk. Right. I was just didn't say that. Yeah. And I can't think of anyone at more at odds. with with Catholicism than Charlie Kirk.

Charlie Kirk is an evangelical charismatic. I speak to God. I speak on behalf of God. Exactly what the Roman Catholic Church is. I mean, there's there's. I mean, I mean, the Roman, the formal, hierarchical Roman Catholic church. could not be more at odds with the that that charismatic evangelical. Well, think of the odds of it to.

I mean, you know, the, the confession booth, the sort of darkness, the formality of the Catholic service against the fireworks. that they had for the memorial for Charlie Kirk in the Arizona Stadium. I mean, it's a show. It's performative. I mean, let's assume that maybe at some point. there is something in the Roman Catholic Church, and certainly JD. Vance would not be the first person to find something there, something. something unique, something that speaks to him, something that,

we're worthy of this conversion in his life. But he can't say that because he doesn't want to. antagonize the evangelicals he will need. I mean, the Catholics are much more unreliable in terms of a coalition. He needs the evangelicals. Well, so therefore it's not it's really yes, I converted to the Roman Catholic Church, but I'm really a Christian, which is a complete misunderstanding.

I mean, I mean, the history, the history of, of Western. history is a battle between Protestants and Catholics, right? I mean, you can't just. smooth this over. Well, it's also, as you were pointing out before we sat down to discuss this, it's the church of the Hispanic community, the Latin community, who he is literally rounding up. with masked ice agents and throwing in the back of hands. And how he tries to square that is,

is completely unsatisfactory in the book. And the whole thing is like he's got one side of his life compartmentalized. over here, which is I'm wrestling with, why are we here? What are we doing? And all these priests who appear to be sort of father. figures to him giving all this advice. And then on the flip side, he is the vice president to Donald Trump, who is the cruelest, most unpleasant man you can imagine. You could call Donald Trump a heathen.

We could definitely call him a heathen, right? The way he holds the Bible upside down. I mean, it's laughable what he's how he's trying to know. And then and then there's, you know, within this book, you're as a man, I'm questioning. I have tons of questions. I'm I'm a questing. I'm a searcher for this. But in real life, JD Vance, I mean, what we've seen of him, he's. a complete dickhead, full of certainties and, you know. And who deviates from MAGA.

for Trump doctrine is, you know, he he he. he insults and dismisses well, any cozies up to Stephen Miller, who's the architects of what's going on with immigration right now. And then he basically attacks the Catholic Church to. for not having a realistic view of what immigration is. Then he attacks modern economists saying that they don't understand. what immigration is.

I mean, the whole you know, he has his own Rand moment as well. Let's not forget that, where he talks about The Fountainhead and that's his brief. kind of venture capital moment. And it's all about the markets. The markets will save us. And then he decides that's not true. But I just wanted to read this bit here because it says so. This is how he describes the campaign. We traveled around the country. I gave speeches and interviews to the media. who have found outings in new cities with the kids.

The president and I won the election and I became the vice president. of the United States. We moved into a giant house at the Naval Observatory in northwest Washington. We arrived around noon on January the 21st. to a delicious meal cooked by our new team of chefs. Father Henry came to offer a blessing for the new house, and the kids explored their new rooms and play rooms. I mean, this is a man that wrote Hillbilly Elegy. I mean, how could he possibly have written that? There's no detail in it. What did they have for lunch?

Well, I mean, it makes no sense as a book. We drove around the we rode around the country, we won the election. That's all it gets. Okay, just to understand, I mean, Hillbilly Elegy, which is a pretty good book, always well written. And he wrote it. I mean, he was he didn't have anyone else to write it. Right. When you're a. political figure, when you're at at that level, I mean, he is you have a huge staff, you don't have the time,

you don't have the mental calm to write a book. So what do you do? You get other people to write. Right. And so and that's partly what this book feels like. So at there is the part of the book. which is JD Vance, I am I am searching for something. I'm an unhappy person. I would expect, you know, he's a kind of. a depressed person and well, then he grew up with no structure. Yeah. And he's so he's looking for is looking and that is there.

And I think that he, he, he said to aides, okay, this is a book about my search for meaning. I want that and but it's also the other things. So and you you're farming this out to aides. You're giving a kind of top line. This is this is what I want. But but you do the research on, on on this topic. and you do the research on that topic. And then I need an outline. And then I'll fill in some of it because it doesn't flow as a book.

There's no flow to it. I mean, there's a chronology to it, but there's really no flow. But again, but what is interesting is there, I mean, everybody. who's running for president writes a completely bullshit book, which no one reads and no one is expected to read, although except for the books, Obama's, well, the audacity of hey! But that was before he was a right. But I think he was always thinking of running for president, right? Wasn't he was just looking for his time? Yeah. But again,

that's a book that he really that he, that he wrote at a given point in time. And the books that came after that is not my father is not particularly readable, but I was just going to say nobody, nobody, nobody reads these books and nobody really buys these books. But so I go into the bookstore to, to get this, to get JD Vance book and JD Vance book in the bookstore that I went to. Did you go to Book Hampton? Yes. Is right next, right next JD Vance and then Mike Pence's book.

Oh how funny. But nobody's going to read my. Well, no. So I see so I'm, I'm. looking looking at this and thinking, oh I have to buy this book. And, and then a guy comes along in the, in East Hampton and picks up. mike Pence's book and takes it to the cash register and literally buys it. I'm like, oh my God. And I took everything within within me not to say, can you explain yourself?

Are you really going to read this? Maybe he's buying it as a joke for a friend. Maybe. Maybe. Well, I told you my difficulty finding JD Vance book. They didn't have it in McNally Jackson. They definitely didn't have it in the strand. And they made a point of telling me that they hadn't ordered it. And then I got it at Barnes and Noble with this $5 off sticker, which. So at least my walk got saved. Okay, so I have a passage that I that I want to read. Okay, okay. All right.

And he's writing about his about ushe. And he says one night she told me about a book she'd read. by Joan Didion called The Year of Magical Thinking. I'm really freaked out by death, she said. She told me, and I found it to be cathartic. This is the book to be. She's saying that? Yes. Wow, I replied, I'll pick it up from the library tomorrow. Notice the library.

Yes, of course, the library. The library. The libraries that you know, with all their cuts, yes, are being closed all over the country. Yeah. And you don't think JD Vance is just going. if he wants to read a book to Amazon like the rest of us, right. I told her good night and that I loved her. And I guess he's not getting into bed. Well, I think there were there she may be working in Washington at this point. I told her good night and that I loved her. And then I went to the online Oxford English Dictionary to look up cathartic.

And then in the text, he actually reproduces the. definition of cathartic. Now, you know, cathartic is a is a, you know, it's a nice word. I mean, he knows what cathartic means. I mean, he went to college, everybody, if you if you went to college. and you don't know what cathartic means, you have failed college or college has failed. He was writing press releases for the Marines.

That's what he did. He was in communications, of course, he knows. Well, he's he's he's he's already written Hillbilly Elegy by this, by this point. Well that's absurd. I mean, he is this is that this is right. So he is doing this, this thing I it's also. a kind of it's not that kind of a word. No. It's also a kind of a weird also, frankly, if you're condescending. Way to stroke his wife.

Well, I think it might be more. You know, he's obviously trying to reach down to people. who are struggling to read his book, but it's it's bizarre. He wouldn't know the word. First of all, he worked in communications. But secondly, church is full of catharsis. They talk all the time. If you go to a church service. about how cathartic it is to confess your sins, or to listen to. or to pray, the whole point of prayer is so this makes no sense. And why did nobody pick it up? Why is nobody editing this book? And can I just add this cover is dreadful.

And when I look to see what the church. is, this little sort of church, maybe it's in Ohio. I know it's Adobe Stock photo. They couldn't even come up with a personal church to him. Well, they never take take a photo for I mean, I've written a lot of books, and one of the things that distinguishes all of the books I've written. is terrible covers, because at some point in the. I don't think that's generally of fire and fury. It's terrible. One of the terrible, terrible.

Not only is it. one of the terrible covers of all time, it became actually an online meme. Can you make a better cover for this book? It's just a generic cover. It's like like, you know, here's a macintosh. They say to some kid in the office, you know, you can work the Macintosh, right? Okay, that dates you. I think anybody's saying you can you can do the Macintosh. That is very 1990s. And no, but that is literally where the the book business is.

Well, nowadays you could come up with a better one on on AI. In fact, this should be a challenge to anybody watching. Could you come up with a better cover for JD Vance this book than this? If we have so many creative people who listen to us, please send it to us because this is literally stock photo. It's Adobe stock, okay? All folks, nobody ever gets a picture they don't even take. When I first started write books, you know, they sent a photographer to take your picture.

No no no no no no. Right. Can you send us a picture now? But you have to take a picture of yourself. All right. Well, is there a picture of JD Vance in here? Yes there is, I think it's his official portrait. Yeah, yeah. So they just I mean, it's anyway, it's the book business. And I actually wonder how much she got for this book. I don't know how she got for it. We should find out, because we should remember, Andrew Cuomo got 5 million for his. And he made some of his staff write his book. Right. Oh, opportunistic of him.

American leadership. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, the thing, though, that I want to emphasize here. is that this isn't just a phony baloney. campaign book, even though catharsis, this is a book of a of a guy who really feels like. I mean, it really feels like he is there is meaning out there, which he is searching for and he hasn't. found, and his life is full of so many contradictory parts.

that it feels like he could come apart at any moment. I thought that too, that this is a man on the edge of either. jumping into the abyss or about to fragment in so many, and I and I go for another, another point. And maybe the most important one is that it's really unclear. what kind were he to become the president of the United States, what kind of president he would be for what he would stand for? Or,

I couldn't even tell you, actually projecting. Would he be a good president or I mean, good and bad in the sense. of of what a liberal person would think, think of him. You can't tell what where he will go. Right. And also, can I just point out that this is a man. who said he doesn't understand what the word cathartic meant, and then one of his chapters is called Semper y.

Nam pot. But I did want to read one of the priests that he has analyzes. his relationship with usher and says. that I can't find the actual quote. now because I was underlining everything going through. Oh, that's right. There was a great line where he goes, I had unconsciously absorbed the biases of America's educated class. What is he talking about?

But one of the priests says to him that he's putting far. too much pressure on usher, and that he's taken his, essential desire for security and structure. from his grandmother more or more and put it on to usher. And then there's a whole debate about how does the priest know? Because the priest is essentially without relationship experience. No, it was just an interesting no. And I found the usher thing interesting, too, because because it's I mean,

I mean, the suggestion, the suggestion is. that Lucia is without religion. and without belief, which is. and and yet but but we don't know this. because this is a, this is this is really quite a blind here. I was going to say it is a blank in the book. Yes. And then, but then, then the children are being raised. I the, the, we are sort of, sort of prompted to assume as Roman Catholics.

So was there a discussion with the, there must have been a discussion with, with the wife. I mean, this is a pretty it's not an insubstantial thing in a, in a marriage and in decisions you make about your children. But we don't get any of that. No we don't. And then here's the bit I wanted to talk about in terms of therapy. And for those of you who are in therapy or have therapy or have ever had therapy, this is his thing.

There was a deeper problem with therapy as I encountered it. The first thing is the framing turned me into a victim rather than an actor. I'm sure that therapy helps many people, but the thought of being a victim. made me want to puke. No matter how bad the things that happened to me, I didn't want to see myself as a helpless bit character in my own life. A person to whom things happened. I wanted to be the author of my own destiny. Our trauma did not write us a moral blank check. And I thought.

I thought that he misunderstood what therapy was, actually. And then he goes, I was searching for a more satisfying accounting of wrongdoing. and responsibility, of temptation and willpower, of virtue and guilt. It was equally wrong to wallow in trauma and pretend it controlled us, or worse, deprived of us of our agency. There had to be a third world. But most of all, I wanted to be a better person. I wanted to be worthy of the woman I was madly in love with. It's, there's a there's a kind of thing in which.

in which the premise of the book is meant to be bold. I'm going to get out there. I am, I am. This is about God, about my search, my search for God decide. This is what is most important to me. You know, and I'm, you know, I'm I'm out there. I'm going to say this. I'm going to admit to this. I'm going to reveal myself. But at the same time, he goes, everything about the book goes out of its way to be non-controversial.

Right. And the Charlie Kirk thing is also interesting because. because Charlie, who of course, isn't here to contribution. to any of this, becomes his sort of. bro in a way that he talks to about the whole thing. And you just feel like that's totally unconvincing to me. I just don't believe that he had that much in common to talk to Charlie about. Well, I think that's true. And also, as I say, the, the, the Catholicism of it.

all, the Catholic Church of it all. I mean, I find it impossible to, to to imagine Charlie Kirk. having any kind of sympathy with the Roman Catholic Church. Well, let's hope that JD Vance does go to confession every Sunday, because I think I think JD would find it helpful. Yeah. No. And actually actually he might again and I and I don't want to. I don't want to entirely make this about making fun of this guy.

because you don't want to be because someone spiritual says yes, I do. Usually I write, well, I do, I do want. I do find that this is that there is a genuinely divided personality here. I mean, and that's what I usually find interesting in a character. Donald Trump doesn't have a divided personality. Most politicians don't. And and JD Vance does. And that could be in so many ways that can be interesting in so many ways.

You know, it's it's a, you know, it's an actually even more interesting than just a searcher. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a searcher who at the same time is, is, you know, desperate for worldly success. So these, these recognition. Yeah, these two things, these two contradictory things. exist within this guy. And what happens? I don't know, maybe we'll see. Yeah.

Well it's it's definitely his his campaign book and I cannot wait. How is he going to best this. How is Marco Rubio going to best this. Because what he's doing here is setting himself up as a serious man. Well, they don't have to. They'll just do a campaign book that they won't even read. Right. But how does that explain his previous marriages and his intoxication? You don't have to do this in a campaign, in a campaign book. First thing, you don't have to do it because you have a staff to do it.

And and that's it. So they'll they'll it'll be Pete and Texas will be on the cover of the book. Yes. Because that's part of is. Yeah. So it's interesting here that JD is not on the cover of this book. But anyway, Pete will be on the cover of the book and, and it will just be a book that, that no one, least of all it reads. So this is turning into a sort of cultural it's almost like a review episode.

The other thing I wanted to talk to you about, which, again, someone I really don't understand is Laura Luma. So Laura Loomer has had a 180 on Ukraine. She's been out there saying forever. that the Ukraine war should be brought to an end, that Trump should, you know, finish it, and that essentially she now says that she swallowed up. Russian propaganda, that she's been talking nonsense. She went to Ukraine, she met, well, Zelensky and she's made a strange little documentary about it.

This is a Ukraine moment which is suddenly catching. everybody, including Donald Trump, in the headlights. I mean, and it catches JD Vance in the headlights to remember all of these. These people were of the were Russian. If not if. not sympathizers, you know, they were Russian liners. and they were Russian leaders because Russia was going to win.

Right? So, you know, really just all on the side of the winner here. And Putin was, you know, this and, and. you know, it was opportunistic for all of them, including Donald Trump. to be to be a. Russian supporter. Yeah. Yeah. And clearly that was a bad call. I mean, I mean, JD in the book is kind of. like a little sheepish about about about this.

I mean, we have Ukraine at this. historic moment in time is the is the pivot. I mean, it has thrown everything into. I mean, I don't think anybody knows how to deal with this. Well, and of course, Lindsey Graham just coming back where we began with his. his lying in state in the rotunda, died after coming back from his 10th visit to Ukraine. And despite his sort of suck up,

the one thing he was consistent on was we should be supporting Ukraine. We should push Russia back. Russia cannot be allowed to walk into Europe. So Lindsey, Lindsey Graham, you know, is. kind of continues that neocon thread that. as much as he was sucking up to to Trump, he was in the background. And now that becomes a justification by the by the way. And perhaps it was he sucked up to Trump.

because he was preserving his neocon, his neocon beliefs. Well, against against. Yeah. Well against against the MAGA people. who were, you know, I mean, Tucker was going to Russia. Tucker is, you know, we shouldn't spend a dime on Ukraine, all of that kind of thing in which everybody is. How do you now reconcile this, this with the fact that Ukraine.

certainly. has Ukraine has changed the nature of war. It's changed our understanding of who can. of of the power equation in war in which we are. Donald Trump is experiencing firsthand in Iran. And and it certainly would looks like at this point. that Ukraine is going to the result.

is going to be an historic reversal. Really. Russia is fucked. So how important is Laura Luma in Trump's circle? Because she's really she's an influencer. But what does that mean? We know that she's spent a lot of time going back in social media feeds of people. that Trump has hired and pointing out things they've said that were destroyed. This this is this is an easy answer.

Laura Loomer is not important in the circle, but she can be important to Trump himself. She has Trump's phone number. She can get Trump on the phone. Trump likes to talk to her. I mean, she was traveling with him a lot at one point and that seems to have. calmed down. She is actually this is a this is. the important hinge. here is she's she's a Natalie Harp person. So did not Lee harp bring her in?

Well yes. And and certainly during the campaign, Natalie Harp was the person who approved her getting on the plane. So she is she. She has she has contacts within the Trump circle. And then Trump likes her so. And she gets Trump on the phone and she goes his, you know, does. does her thing. And and he's the last person she, he talks, he talked to. So fine she wants so-and-so fired because so-and-so fired.

So-and-so is not loyal to him. She she he he might well do that. So is her 180 on Ukraine going to be significant to him. or is it already going on? And it's already obviously obviously. I mean, Zelensky is now in town for. Lindsey Graham's. funeral, but he will get time with Trump. And Trump is yeah, he's.

how could you how could you miss the fact that. that that that Ukraine. is the advantage. at this point is profoundly with Ukraine. And Trump himself is now, as we've said, in. an Iranian standoff, which it's unclear. that how it's going to resolve and the Iranians are now in control. Also, yes, in a broader in a broader sense,

the foreign policy, the foreign policy aspect of this administration. of the second Trump administration has been a complete disaster. apart from Venezuela, apart from. Yes. But even now. And by the way, by the way, even Cuba is not going well. The Cubans are hanging on. And I mean, he can't make that happen. The Iranian thing is a complete disaster. The alignment with Russia obviously.

a bad call. The. I mean, remember he kicked Zelensky out of the. Yeah, out of the Oval Office. Well, and another thing that's very hard to square with JD Vance is apparent piety. The way they humiliated Zelensky when he was in the Oval Office. Well, he was a loser then. Now he's a winner there. You know you know Netanyahu now. in you know, trying to get time with, with with Donald Trump and some question.

about whether he's going to get that time, whether whether Trump is going to. is going to really diss him, right, really humiliate him. because and I mean, that's a bad call, you know, you know, coddling. coddling up to. Netanyahu and then getting stuck in Iran. Everything is a bad call here. I mean, it profound them in a terrible call. So Greenland, let's not forget Greenland, right.

So within. within this context, he really needs a success. So and Ukraine is beginning to look like it could be his, you know, he's he could piggyback on his Lindsey Graham. funeral to a more successful strategy with Ukraine. Bingo. Yes. Okay, Michael. Such fun to sit in the studio with you. We'll be back on Thursday. We will we will be back on Thursday and the Thursday after that.

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