This Is the Sordid Reason Trump Bows to Putin | Inside Trump's Head

I was speaking to someone in, in the, in the white House. and I said, what do you think his number is? He said he thought probably he wanted Trump wanted. 20 billion by the end of his term. He and his family could make 100 billion. that it really was about the money. Being president was nice, but being an oligarch is forever. This is at the root of Trump's.

interest in, and admiration for Putin, that Putin is the one world leader. who has access to the most money with the least amount of regulation. Ukraine has really frustrated my ability. to do a deal to be partners with Putin. So I am now going to do everything possible. I only got two years left, everything possible. to close down the Ukraine situation and make deals with Putin.

Hello. Los Angeles. This is. being recorded because this will be first days podcast. So for. Yeah. So you will hear yourselves on the podcast. So for those yes exactly. If you want to hear yourself develop a strange laugh right now. or or a heckle. No, don't. I've never had a heckler. That would be interesting.

We can talk about anything here because there's no one else here, right? It's very strange for us because normally we just have a conversation, the two of us, we're chattering away, and then we put it out into the world. And obviously we see people's comments. But it's incredibly exciting to meet an audience and actually see the audience. We never talked to anyone except ourselves. And then there's usually a few, a few of the producers. in the studio with us who look bored. So they done that. Oh. Not again.

Not again. It's the two of you again. Anyway, we're thrilled to be here. We have people from San Diego, we've people from Texas. We've got a gentleman from Connecticut. It's very exciting. We've got people from London. It's great. It's great. Yes. Okay. Okay. Anyway, I think we should start now. And we should start by me saying. Michael. Joanna. So.

I'm not smiling. He really doesn't smile. Actually, I he does look younger than he sounds. And he's looking particularly fetching today. because he's put on a suit for you all. Cardigans? Yeah. You know, I have a lot of suits. And because I've. gone with this cardigan thing, I don't really know how this happened, but. So my suits are kind of forlorn in the closet,

so I am glad to bring them out. Obviously, we're going to talk about the midterms. We're going to talk about what might Trump do if he wakes up on November the 4th. And there has really been a blues tsunami. We're going to talk about, his people. We're going to talk about, obviously, JD Vance, about RFK junior. Michael, special friend. We're going to talk about Elon. We're going to talk about Rubio.

We're going to talk about Hegel, as we call him. I think we'll we'll do a drive. by of Katy Zachariah because I just can't resist it. And Natalie, Natalie Harp, we're going to definitely talk about. Natalie Harp, who you were writing about in All or Nothing, which came out with. incredible speed after Trump had just been inaugurated. The fury and the speed with which Michael writes his book is. something really unparalleled.

Practice, practice, right. It's one of the benefits of getting older. Yeah, no. And I was actually one of the books, and I was I was kind of pleased with, with my, with myself that I had written at this fast. And then a friend of mine said, well, you have had a lot of practice. So mean. That's very mean of them anyway. But before we get on to any of that, we should really, I think, kick off with Ukraine. Because it is so urgent.

It is so shocking. And why? I mean, who among us thought that we would see an American president. side with the aggressor, side with Russia, the assumption. that the Cold War had been won and that the West had won it. What is what is. I mean, I think the question, remember, and the persistent question. from the beginning of of the Trumps, Trump's political life,

at least life in the white House is what does Putin have on him? And what is inside Trump's head? Well, well, I mean, I think I can somewhat explain this. And, you know, one of the things I, you know, there's I. there was a period in the first administration. when I sat around with, with Steve Bannon, actually, we had gone. we saw Trump's news conference in Helsinki with Putin.

And, I mean, and when he when. they had had their private meeting and then they came out. and and Steve Bannon said, God, Trump looks like a beaten dog. And then it was him trying to say, what does what does Putin have on him? And he went through all of the, the, the, the possibilities, dismissing them all financial. Trump wouldn't care about that. He could wave that away. Sexual Trump just waves that away.

The p tape and ban and said no, no, Trump would just say that's not me. And and then and then Bannon said. said, well, maybe Putin has his transcript. from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. But I actually think I think it's, it's it's actually larger than that. What Trump wants most more,

perhaps more than anything, is money. I think Trump in his heart, in his head, wants to be an oligarch. And, you know, I said to some and this was just this was just recently. I was speaking to someone in, in the, in the white House and, and we were sort of talking about the, you know, the money, the grift. And I said, what do you think his number is?

And this person in the white House, someone very close, close to Trump. And one of the interesting things about, about the people around Trump is that they are actually very objective. when they talk about him, because he is as far into them as Trump is to us. I mean, they're being paid and they're they have to fall in line. and do all the things, all of the things that, that, that Trump demands of people. But, you know, they're clear eyed. Trump is Trump.

And this person said said, well, he. he thought that Trumps Trump's number. And remember I guess Trump is at about 4 billion. now in this this second, second administration. This person said, well that, that. that I'm going to say he but I was trying not to say he. because I'm, you know, you're trying to protect the general source, but, he said he said he thought probably.

he wanted Trump wanted 20 billion by the end of his term, and he wanted to have deals in place. that he could when he returns the moral Lago, he could. He he and his family could make 100 billion that it really was. about the money that, you know, being the presidency, being president was nice, but being an oligarch is forever.

And, And that is. and I think that that is, that makes the most sense to me. This is at the root of Trump's. interest in and admiration for Putin, that Putin is the one world leader. who has access to the most money with the least amount of regulation. And so, Trump, right now, I think it's like I you know, Ukraine has really frustrated my ability.

to do a deal to be partners with Putin. So I am now going to do everything possible. I only got two years left, everything possible. to close down the Ukraine situation and make deals with Putin. Let's put this in perspective. Is there a worse thing in American President has done then side with Russia. at this point? I mean, you know, post-Second World War arguably, of course, Vietnam, where, you know, thousands of Americans.

I mean, I don't lie. Yeah. I'm not sure how you. Yeah. I mean, 45,000 people died in Vietnam. 6000 people. died in in a totally pointless Iraq war. But the knock on impact of allowing Putin to stay in Ukraine. Yeah. Well, it's just a I mean, it's it's absolutely, abhorrent. And the other interesting thing is it doesn't seem to work.

I mean, do you are. I mean, I, I think one of the things that we will look back on this time. and we will single out the Ukrainians not only for their tenacity, but but also for their brilliance and inventiveness. You know, so I mean, Trump. Trump may want this. I'm sure he does want the he does from the beginning. He's wanted this the the situation Ukraine to just go away.

I'll solve it in an overnight. But it doesn't. And and it doesn't. Because for, because they are fighting for something and, and because they have understood how you change the nature of war. So, so, I mean, which goes to the other thing. that Trump is, in the end, in so many ways. ineffectual and incompetent because he doesn't, you know, what does Trump know about about Ukraine, about the nature of warfare,

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With go V clinical study information restrictions, visit hims.com. Let's go back to. your interview with Trump in 2016. Not far from here in Beverly Hills, five, six miles away. Is it more than that? Okay. Sorry. Showing my ignorance there. Eight miles, eight miles. Ten. Anyway, on on the on the corner of Cannon and Sunset.

Trump had a house. Who knew? Still, this still seems mysterious to me. Did he really own that house? Was it someone else's house? But there I was with Donald Trump. In this house filled with kind of furniture. cast off from hotels, it seemed to me. The whole thing seems strange. It's right across the cross. The street from the. From the Beverly Hills Hotel.

I was invited there, and and I went in, and when I got there, he opened the refrigerator door and said, do you want anything? And it was just filled. The only thing that was, there were pints of Haagen-Dazs ice cream. And just just lined up like Haagen-Dazs. Yeah. No, like like we were in a story Haagen-Dazs store. I don't know, and, cherry vanilla. and and I said no, but it didn't make any difference.

He didn't listen to me because he doesn't listen to anyone. He threw me one. And and then we then we sat on the, on the, on the. this overstuffed couch, this kind of hotel. lobby couch, eating our ice cream together. I could still see Trump. Just, And, and then we we spoke, you know, we spoke the.

Hours actually, actually. Because. No, let me clarify. He spoke. I listened. and but, you know, it was I mean, this was. this would have been in May 2016. So still at that, at that point. where it looked like he might actually get the nominee, he was going to get the nomination, which was mind boggling enough.

But still, there was no conception in my mind, or I believe in anyone's. mind that he was actually going to be the president of the United States. And and I said to him at that at that point, and we had known kind of known each other. because I was at New York Magazine in, for quite a number of years. And then he would kind of call. I was the, the. sort of designated person who he would call.

to complain about, well, complain about stories that he might be in, might be mentioned in. But more often when he wasn't mentioned, why am I not in that story? I should have been in that story. You really missed it because I was, etc. etc. and we had a we had a, you know, a kind of. a kind of good relationship. He was certainly not in any way hostile. And, you know, he got you on the phone. and he would talk to you because that's what he does.

And but but so in the Beverly Hills house, I finally said to him, I said, okay, okay, okay, just tell me, really, why are you doing this? Why are you running for president? And that's a sort of a trick question for everyone running for president. And no one really has a has a clear answer. But Trump had a clear answer, which pretty much. explains everything to come, he said.

And there was no hesitation here. He said to be the most famous man in the world. And. I you know, I. Is there anything more than we have to understand that this is what this. what his initially running for president. And then I think he was more astounded than anyone to be president. But then this entire ten years. Ten years. Right. Yes.

Has been about the pursuit of attention. So let's talk about that and let's talk about what. we're actually trying to do with inside Trump's head. Because I think the first few times we had conversations, we were like, why aren't people covering this differently? Why aren't people? Why don't people understand that this is what's driving. Trump, that he is not a normal politician. And if we cover him as if he is a normal politician, we are missing the point.

So sometimes at the beginning of the podcast, especially for new people. that are joining, we try and explain what we're trying to do. And this is an audience of people who know the podcast, but just. just for a, you know, a quick 60s. will you explain why we are trying to do something different here. that really does try to understand his motivation? Government in almost every. situation is a is about process.

It's about enormous numbers of people being involved in, in the bureaucratic decision making process. Trump. radically deviates from that. He doesn't care about anybody else, isn't even acknowledge. I'm not even sure he understands that. there are other people who have. who have significant roles and significant influence.

You just ignores that and and has made this. effectively a government of one. He has no advisors who he listens to. He has no real agenda that he's pursuing. It's about. what he wakes up in the morning. thinking he lives in the moment.

It's and he has said, who, who, who and who is your closest adviser? Mr. president, quite a number of people have asked them this, this question, including me. And and his response is always on self-consciously me. I am my. main and only adviser. So in order to understand.

Trump, in order to understand this moment in time, in order to understand. the the politics of where we are now, you really got to understand what motivates him. What, what what. what what moves him at any given moment. And apart from money, the other currency that he trades. in that he craves, that he's good at dominating.

As you've just alluded to, is attention. Can we take the example of the idea of streaming and execution. as, as just a way that you said, why is everybody covering this? It's not going to happen. It's obvious. Well, one of the one of the things that that he does, and this goes on, on a, on a pretty much on a daily basis, I mean, the people, the people around him, he'll come up with an idea or. he'll hear an idea and suddenly adopt it,

and has no, no relationship. Whether this is a real idea, whether it's, it's an idea. that he actually intends to pursue, whether, whether whether he, he thinks it has any possibility at all, but he'll say, just put it out there, just just put it out there and just put it out there. means, let's see what the reaction is.

But more importantly, let's put it out there. and then we'll see the media go crazy. And he gets another news cycle which is all about Trump. So this is this is an administration wholly measured in news cycles. If there is. A successful day, is that. is that the front page of the New York Times? Most of the headlines are Trump related. And it doesn't matter whether they are positive headlines or negative.

headlines, just that they are Trump headlines. And there's a fundamental, the fundamental politics, the fundamental formula of Trump politics. is that attention is zero sum. if he gets it, other people, in fact, if he gets it and nobody else does, and the attention is power. Attention is success.

So therefore, if nobody else gets attention, you know, it's Trump's world. And the. tragic thing is that turns. out to be kind of true. It's also difficult. Or it's also proved difficult for the Democrats to figure out. how to maneuver around him, I think. So let's just talk about the midterms.

We've seen that, in fact, his policies, in as much as they are policies, have come back to haunt him. Iran ice the economy. But almost everything he's tried to do has not ended up. well because he's incompetent and he's surrounded by a cabinet of incompetence. loyalists who have no interest in actually doing anything. How do you and even in abroad, in a broader sense, I mean, so this administration in which he has had free reign,

I mean, he said free reign because because he's. declared himself to be having, having this huge mandate. And then he's hired people who are two, two, weak willed to challenge him. So he's been able pretty much to do whatever. And, and he believes that he can do whatever. The problem with doing whatever is that nothing is thought through here.

And everything collapses in, in, in on itself and bites you in the ass, which every essentially. every significant policy has had that effect. Meaning he has, you know, the lowest, the lowest approval rating of any president in modern times. Okay. So one of his methods you have talked about is this thing where he calls people.

So on the one hand, he puts things out there and sort of. has the court of public opinion and the media react. The other thing he does, you say is he has a list of people, a sort of Rolodex of people that he calls and he asks them things. and he puts things out there and, you know, he gets feedback that way. How do you think that is going right now? Well, I wouldn't exactly call it feedback. I mean, he creates his own loop so he hears.

he hears what he wants to hear. And people know this this kind of it's it's it's a kind of, you know, call and response. So he'll, he'll call and he'll say, you know, how do you think so-and-so is doing? And, well, he did this last week, right, with Katie Zacharias. Yeah.

And that that means, that means. that person is cooked and everybody, everybody knows that. So if you get a call like that, if you're the president, you're calling. me, and I go, hello, Mr. President. And you go, you know, what do you think about Katie Zachariah, the new press secretary? Am I supposed to just sense that you're asking me. because you want me to reinforce what you've already decided? Yeah, absolutely. And you will understand that, and and if I remember,

the other thing is he doesn't listen to anyone anyway. So everybody everybody is is a is a. is just there for for. for them to be an echo of what he wants. So I mean, I've had this experience of him. calling me, during the,

during the first administration and I had I went into the white House, you know, in a way that, I mean, it's just one of the. a kind of inexplicable, circumstance in which you would just allow a, a writer to have free access, free rein, you know, and that happened, you know, I mean, I mean, I, I had. I had asked. after after they had won the election and Steve.

Bannon and I were having a kind of back and forth conversation. and I said I would say, Steve, I said, I'd like to come into the white House as, as an observer. And, Steve said, well, you know, you gotta you gotta ask, we got to go talk to the boss. And so this was in Trump Tower, and we went up to Trump's Trump's office. And I kind of made this pitch about coming in as an observer. And then he thought I was asking for a job.

Deputy assistant observer. And, Because he would like that, he would like someone just to observe him. Yeah. Well, then then well, then I said no, no, no no no no, I want to, I want to write a book. And he said, well, okay, well whatever. So the book means mean. It's just saying the word book. Not interested.

And then I came out of the office with, with with Bannon. And Bannon said, well, he didn't say no. And literally on that basis, I was given pretty much free. rein in the West Wing for about seven months. But and then toward that with Steve Bannon, by the way, talking to me. every day, you know, with with him, a kind of completely unvarnished conversation.

about his feelings about Trump, which were, vicious, to say the least. And but at some point that first summer, Trump. started to call me and saying, what do you think about your friend Steve? And I thought, oh. And what was it? What was it like? Because I remember when you would call me Michael, and I've known each other for 27 years, 28 years at this point.

And I remember you calling me and saying, you're not going to believe this. I'm just sort of hanging out at the white House. And I was like, well, what do you mean? You're just hanging out there and you saying, oh, I don't know. I'm just sort of hanging out here. Yeah. You know, I mean, it was the kind of thing, I mean, it was just being allowed into the white House and then. and then trying to make yourself small. So. So no one noticed that you were in the white House.

And then I used to sit on the couch in the West Wing. and everybody the, you know, the West Wing is a very small. I it's it's it's actually astounding. It's it's like the, you know, like a college admissions office. So you became the listener. Fire and Fury, your first book comes out, it sells 5 million copies. And and people are going around saying, this guy's made it up. This can't possibly be true. It's absolutely chaotic.

And we learned that, in fact, not only is it true, but but it's possibly even more grotesque. than the chaos you have laid out that people hate each other. They're doing everything to stop Trump doing what Trump wants to do. I think one of the things that people very find very hard to understand, and I want you to explain it to people because you go on and you do fire. and fury, you do siege, you do landslide, you do all or nothing. Very good. Thank you.

And I can remember the titles better than Michael can. But people carry. on talking to you, and I think I want you to explain to people, because I find it interesting when when you tell me, why do people do this? And I think Lindsey Graham is the perfect example of someone. who figured out how to get into Trump's court. He played golf with him 154 times. He whispered in his ear as the last person.

from as many times as he could, especially on on Ukraine. And yet he was also talking to you because he wanted. his, his actual understanding of who Trump was to also be out there. I mean, he was the ultimate political animal in a way. But he wasn't the only one. Well, he's but but that's even a different case. I mean, Lindsey Graham spoke to me. I think Lindsey Graham spoke to a lot of people. He was a press hound and,

and certainly knew where his bread was buttered. and was a raconteur and liked to tell those kinds of kinds of stories. But the more interesting thing is why people in Trump's close circle. so people and Lindsey Graham, Donald Trump couldn't fire. Lindsey Graham, anyone in the white House who was speaking, speaking about Trump was very, very well might be fired. So why did people speak to me?

And I kind of don't know the answer to this, but the other answer. is, I think, is that people around. Trump have like, like any of us. I mean, I think as I was saying, same before. It's it's they see Trump not different than we see him. They, they think this is an anomalous situation. This is weird. They can't explain them.

So they're looking for other people who might be able to explain them. So over time and I've been doing this now for, for books. for, for for ten years. You, you know, you develop relationships. There are people in the Trump circle who I am very friendly. with, I mean, friendly with over a long period of time. And, and it's, it's sort of, you know, I have to justify it in my, in my own head. How can I be friends with people who work for Donald Trump?

I mean, key people in Donald Trump's circle. And and the explanation is that you become friends. with people who you have just known for a long period of time. And, and you kind of excuse them. And, or you also find that they have. that they do have this interesting perspective on him. They know they know a lot about this guy.

And they have a certain amount of clarity about him. And also they. In their divided self, they stand back and look at him and they say, oh my God. And, you know, people call me up. And it's remarkable. how many conversations begin with, I pick up the phone. and somebody says, you won't believe it.

And then they narrate what's what's going on. And of course, the question is, well, why do you work for him? And that's another complicated question. I mean, and partly the answer is that if you're if that's. if your profession is to be a Republican political operative, you Donald Trump just came to own the party. He is the only game in town.

Okay. So is he the only game in town? Because in exactly two weeks, we've got the midterm elections. Yeah, yeah. I mean, your question, what happens? Well, my question is, you have always said. and and we did a, a themed issue about this last week. that Donald Trump doesn't see winning and losing in the way that the rest of us.

do, that everything he does is, is he somehow manages. to seize victory out of the jaws of even the biggest defeat. We saw what happened in 2020, when he convinced himself, I think that he'd one. And he convinced lots of other people he'd one. And then he refused to acknowledge that he could possibly have lost. So I guess my, my, I just I have never thought. that he had really convinced anybody. There are certain group of people who decided that their bread was buttered.

on agreeing with him, I think that the only person. truly convinced that he had won was Donald Trump himself, or truly convinced that the election was stolen from him was Donald Trump. And do you actually think he. Absolutely right. And I have spent really a lot of time listening to him on this subject. And, and the way he talks about the the numbers, I mean, these numbers come out of his head.

I mean, they're all, they're all meaningless, but he he actually misunderstands them. And so it's it's it's several, several levels removed from reality. There are the. numbers that, that, that he's supposed to say, but then he transposes them because he's enumerate. And then there are other numbers and you go, oh my God.

So so what happens if, let's assume, for the sake of our audience and, and we all, we all want a bit of sort of sunshine on the horizon. Let's assume that there is a blue wave, and it's clear. that the Democrats have won at least the House. How does Trump what happens to Trump. when he becomes officially a lame duck? Well, I mean, I think there's I mean, there's several things there,

you know, in several scenarios, you know, what happens if if he loses. the, loses the house and by how much loses the House. and holds the Senate, or what happens. if he, you know, if he loses the House by a, you know, by a landslide. and then loses the Senate to, well, then.

A lot of wishful thinking going on. Well, then the first thing, then then the next thing that happens is. he loses his share. I mean, we're we're in a. we're in a new world, and he's in a new world. If it's a really blue wave, which. I think it has the possibility to be, if the numbers are so great, then then that's a different story. What happened? And that's certainly a losing his shit story.

The danger is, in this highly polarized time. and with everything, all of this money. that the Republicans are now are now, mustering and spending. with everything that they've done, that it will be close, I think, I think the Democrats still win, but it will be close then. Then that's going to be a difficult my God, a difficult week, two weeks, three weeks.

Of of the Republicans and Trump. fighting every, every seat, every victory. And I don't I think in the end, as has happened before, the, the numbers, the true numbers will prevail. and there will probably be a safe. there will be there there will be a Democratic House.

And so that's kind of. one's one scenario in that scenario. Yet Trump just doesn't, you know, then it's still we just go through the same thing. They stole it again. It's that I, you know, he, he he won. The Democrats are everything that we've heard, we've heard in the past. And one of the Trumps, the things that Trump's always does. is just go back to the playbook that worked for him before.

If, however, it really is. a substantial win on the part of the Democrats, then Trump has to reconfigure this in a way. And I think. then it becomes, again, a battle for attention. So and he'll go, he'll revert to attention is zero sum. So then it becomes.

even more trump than it has has been. It becomes even more outrageous. It becomes more. he wants every headline. So I mean what what happens? I, you know, we invade Cuba. We can do can he do that? I mean, he's had a very compliant Congress. I mean, he's had a super Congress. If, if, if the House goes.

Democratic, can he actually invade Cuba? Sure. Of course. Of course. He just gets on and does it. Yeah. Of course. I mean, it's it's like tearing down. It's like. It's like tearing down golf courses. I mean, you just do it and then fight about it later. in all of these things, it's just to grab the headline. It doesn't really matter what he can do, what he will do, you do it. You grab the headline from for Trump, that's victory.

Attention is the win okay. So he did that with Iran. Iran has not worked out. in the way that he thought it might do because of Venezuela. How does he get out of Iran? What's inside Donald Trump's head about Iran right now? Kind of mush, right. In fact, our design are very design. Yeah. I mean, no, I mean, he doesn't know what's what's going on there.

I think it's incredibly, I was going to say frustrating, but. it's it's it's it's it's enraging to him that this has not worked out. And he can't understand why it has not worked out. I mean, you know, I mean, Trump is his understanding of. anything is on the most simplistic and basic level. We have the biggest, most powerful military in the world.

in, in all of history. So how can you possibly explain. how we would not be able to defeat a little country? And and that is literally every day. that question gets asked in some way, that rhetorical question. Trump asks in some way and and no one. There is no answer that satisfies him.

Is it likely. after the election that we will go back to bombing. Iran? I think yeah, I think that there's a good, good likelihood, is it likely that we will go back to bombing Iran with no effect whatsoever, and that we will just repeat this cycle again? Yeah, that's likely to, is it likely.

that if he loses. the House and the Senate. that there are that they stop the funding for this? That is also likely, and then Trump. will blame them for losing the war. So I mean. and it's interesting because he and Putin now have that in common. They're both stuck in a war that at the moment they can't get out of. One of the things we know is that JD Vance has been very clear in regime change.

and putting out there that he was not for this war, that he's tried to distance himself. Do you think JD Vance inherits the MAGA based as he. inherit Trumpism, or does Trumpism. fizzle once Trump isn't there any longer? Yeah, yeah. I mean without without question it is. It is the latter. Trump is absolutely unique.

We have never seen anyone like him. We will never see anyone like him again. When when Trump departs this vale of tears, he will leave very little left. Meaning that none of us will be here, that America will have vanished. That he may have blown up the world. No, I don't think so. I think I think very little left of of Trump.

Trump politics. I mean, I think that this is an aberration. But you. you know, where is he going? He's not he's not going. And and I don't mean that at the end of, you know, 20, 28, 29, he departs the white House. I mean, I really mean he needs to leave this earth.

Because. he will return to Mar-A-Lago in 2029. and he will effectively set up a counter white House, and he will be a, a constantly. a constant presence, grasping. even more than grasping, probably succeeding in getting, getting, having his attention rival whoever becomes the president.

And in this the president will not be a Republican. So JD Vance is Jesus. I if I were any I would just go home. Trump is not going to allow. the next president to be a Republican, thereby superseding him. So, so it will be a, you know, it will be a Democrat. who then he will then, you know, conflict is conflict. is his, his.

his food, just what he eats. What about you have talked about and I love your personal. anecdotes of having spent a month with him in Alabama. When his uncle was running for trying to get the Democratic primary, talking about RFK, who you see very much as beginning. to build his own platform now to run in 2028. Now,

I know, I know, I know, but who thought that Donald Trump could get elected? And here is a man with a Kennedy brand that has a following. Do you think he is going to run? Yeah, I think he's well, I think he's certainly going to try to run. and certainly considering running and certainly has stars in his eyes. and certainly understands and certainly believes this is his destiny. So so I've known I've known, Bobby Kennedy since we were both in our 20s.

And even then I thought, this is the craziest guy I have ever met. I'm. I mean, truly, like, whoa. And and and I would have said, and I, I certainly felt then that any. that he didn't have a destiny that this. that that his destiny was.

he had been the the Kennedy destiny. He was was going to fall. there with him and, and and I could not have been more stunned. that his by his revival at the age of 70, 73, now 73. Yes. But when when this campaign, you know, when he started to run for president.

in, in 2024. And that was a, that was really created by, that was a, in part a Steve Bannon thing. And the whole thing was, was they were. going to get RFK junior to run. And that would run as a Democrat.

And then that got. their, their, their plans got kind of turned. on, on, on in, on themselves in on themselves. Because, because then he decided to run as an, as an independent. and started to take pull from both the Democrats and the Republicans. And. when Kamala. Harris when Biden withdrew and Kamala Harris replaced. by the sort of the his Democratic supporters went with her.

So at that point, then the Republicans had to make a deal and they made. they made their serious devil's bargain. with with him to take over, Health and Human Services and, suddenly. making him a serious MAGA contender. I'm giving him a huge influence over public health in America to. which is just astounding. As someone shouted out the brain worm over there, let us not forget the brain worm.

Let us not forget cutting off the raccoon penis. Let us not forget the bear in the Central Park. The roadkill bear. And now, of course, I recommend to all of you he's. absolutely extraordinary podcast, which I can't remember what it's called, knows how to cook in America or something, where he brings in chefs. who constantly try to create a connection with him.

and he has no sense of humor, barely registers that they're there. It's the weirdest, weirdest thing, only bested by story time with the second lady. Because when. we read We Grow, which is what she does, it's the most it's it's they've all got podcasts, these people. And I'm happy to say that our podcast eats their podcast. for lunch. So we've got.

we've got JD Vance running, we've got. RFK junior still junior at 73, running. haggis as the state of the force. His speech two three weeks ago, his putting out there. that there was going to be an execution and it would be streamed. You immediately said, well, this is his platform he's running. Does he does come. Don't forget Marco Rubio.

No, no, I'm going to come onto Rubio. But I thought you might want to give us a couple of minutes on haggis. because hackers as you you mind us, Colonel? Vodka. And that name. That was so when he worked for for Fox. Roger Ailes would call him Colonel Vodka. I wonder why. And, Yeah, I mean, again, one of one of those people that you can't even begin to summon.

a a logical train of thought to say. why he should be the secretary of defense. The secretary of defense. That means he he runs the largest. bureaucratic organization in the world. with with. the such. I mean, at 1.1 million. Just imagine the management demands of running this kind of organization.

And imagine that the person who who would have to rise to those. to those management demands, is the co-host of a weekend. television show. Well ran. two veteran affairs, not one, but two veteran affairs. Well, I, I even think about it. And I think what you keep saying that and I think you dignify his experience by.

saying that these were these were hardly these were nothing organizations. So nobody I mean, which nothing organizations which he failed to run. in any kind of kind of, competent manner. But that is not management experience at any level. So he's put into this position to be, you know, and the Secretary of Defense is customarily someone. with extensive experience in military, in business management.

It's that's what the job is. It's management of a complex, arguably. the most complex corporate organization on Earth. That's Hagar's that's what Hagar's does. That's the person we gave this job to. Well does hackers do it or does Haig, his wife, do it? I mean, Jennifer is in the Pentagon. All times are photographs of her everywhere. She's brought in her best friend as his advisor.

Well, I mean, the truth is that that means nobody does it. So, I mean, is she in there throwing her weight around? Yes, obviously. And their way of their method. of management is just to fire anyone who might be capable of managing. So that leaves Marco Rubio of the immediate crew around Donald Trump. He's often, you know, thought of as being the grown up in the room. I don't know who thinks that, actually,

but I feel like it's one of those phrases out there about him. Does he seem to you a likely candidate or. Well, I think he will run. I mean, none of these people seem. No, but. there is no Republican. who is a contender who Donald Trump. will not undermine and humiliate. And in the end, make sure. that this person, that whoever the candidate the nominee is wins. Who happen.

I guess maybe the only person people who could make it happen. are the Democrats who are, of course, have a talent for. But we'll save that. But but that the last thing that Donald Trump can allow to happen. is for a Republican to become the president, which would then. marginalize Donald Trump. And was there a more glorious moment than two weeks ago, when Marco. Rubio arrives in the Hellenic Republic to stand in front of the Acropolis,

who greets him as he arrives, Kimberly Guilfoyle in a bear hug. and, of course, dominates Kimberly Guilfoyle shenanigans. and her desperation to get her $100,000. Amex bill paid off by Eric dieters. Well, it. it ruined Paul Rubio's to the only questions he got. were about our Greek ambassador, Jesus Kimberly Guilfoyle.

But, this is. former first lady of just up the road, San Francisco. Oh, yes. Did you see Gavin Newsom's comments? When asked about her this weekend? He said, oh, we haven't spoken for a bit. I wish her well. Yes. No, I mean, I think it's I mean, if Gavin Newsom runs for president. when Gavin Newsom runs, runs for president, there'll be some explaining to do.

Do you mean, how do you explain how do you explain. marrying Kimberly Guilfoyle? You say, well, that was a mistake. I don't know, I didn't know, she turned into she was a nice girl then, I don't know. We have. We had a column in The Daily Beast this week, which I urge you all to read. by one of her former friends, Jamie Floyd, who said that she took.

When Kimberly left San Francisco, moved to New York. They were hanging out together. And Kimberly said to Jamie, I'm going to leave Gavin. And Jamie was like, why? Why would you leave him? You guys were a power couple in San Francisco. And she said, this marriage isn't big enough. for our two egos. She knew it. She knew it turns out the Hellenic Republic isn't. big enough for her eco, for her ego either. All right, so it's time for some questions,

which I'm very excited to, to pour into. I've got the code word for this computer, and we've got, we've got some good questions actually, here. Well, I tell you what we should do. We should have a quick update. Two questions here about that on your case with Melania. So for those of you who don't know well it's this a home crowd. Michael is suing the first lady.

Let me let me see if I can do this. And I suspect there are people. in the audience that probably contributed to your legal fund. So, Yes. Yeah. Thank you. May want to thank people I and I do I am I am grateful every day. and this was I this is really enabled us to become a real thorn. in the side of of the white House in the First lady.

So but just to summarize, I, I said something, actually in a podcast that, that that we did. Connecting Melania Trump to Jeffrey Epstein, in, it was actually relatively mild. I said that they were in the same social circle together. I also did did say that.

Jeffrey Epstein said that the first time Melania, Melania. and Donald Trump had sex together was on his airplane. Okay. At any rate, there there arrived a letter. from Melania Trump's lawyer, also a lawyer for her husband, the lawyer who does all of his media threats, threatening me with a $1 billion lawsuit.

And in New York State, there are there are laws against that. This they're called anti-SLAPP laws. And, we sid before she could sue us, we sued her. Somebody in the in somebody I know. in the white House said to me, said, well, no one saw that coming. And now we are involved in a long.

Trump like legal fight, which is that they, their, their strategy is to play this out. as long as possible and to cost me as much money as possible. Confounding to them, again is that we have raised so much money. And thank you, everyone. That we are able, we are able so far at least to match them dollar for dollar.

Now the complicated. So right now at this this point in time we sued them in state court. They moved this to federal court. The, the the federal court judge dismissed part of this, but didn't rule on the actual the actual matter at hand. This is now being appealed in. We have we are then or can we continue to argue this in the.

now in the Second Circuit waiting for a ruling on that. Meanwhile, they have sued. They have moved to sanction my lawyers, which is, I in. one of those things that they they moved, the judge said, well, hey, you know, you know, if you say, if you move this, I'm, I'm probably going to rule against it. And and you therefore, set yourself up to be to be,

for them to move for sanctions against you. But they went forward with this anyway, just because that that will cost another $100,000. So this is, this is the Trump the Trump method on this. But again, thanks to, to you and to some 25,000 others. We have enough money and we will continue to pursue this.

And, okay. So I have there are lots of very, very good. questions from people in the audience. I want to whip through some. And if I don't get to your question, I'm I'm sorry. There's just so many very good question here from someone called Echo Alegria. Does Trump have a weakness? It's a very good question, I think. What is his weakness? No.

You know, in a in a way I, I don't think he, he does which, which goes to his own. lack of self-awareness, lack of internal interior life. He's he's just a, you know, it's just he's just the brutish presence. I mean, I suppose you you could say his weakness is if we all stop. paying attention to him, what would happen to Donald Trump without attention?

So another. what was that? More Haagen-Dazs. All right, so a question here. A great question from Corey Dickinson. If Bannon hates Trump so much, why did he go to jail for him? Do you remember he went to jail for four months? Yeah. No. Because Bannon I mean Bannon is is one of them. I mean, I find him a really interesting person of incredibly.

intelligent person, incredibly perceptive and insightful. I also find him the most opportunistic person I have ever in my life met. And and so going to jail. was his, his play for the MAGA base. I mean, Steve is also kind of messianic in a way. I mean, that he does have a kind of belief that maybe he should be president.

or he should be he should be the MAGA movement. he believes is his movement. So he was going to be going to jail for the manga movement. Not really for Trump, although he understands. that that Trump is the is. Trump. Trump is his is his way into them. He cannot alienate himself from Trump. And I've spent a lot of time trying to say to.

to Steve Bannon, you know, you should just cut off. Cut you should cut Trump. You. There are other there are other. populist candidates who you might. well get elected president. like Tucker Carlson. No, no. Well, Tucker and Bannon don't are kind of more rivals than that. But I will say.

that I had an idea once I said to Steve Bannon, I said, I know who you can get elected president. I have a candidate for you. And, a person who's incredible, who's who's incredibly rich. and beloved in his state and in a true populist at, at heart. And this is a my friend Matt Stone, who's,

who's one of the, the, the co-writers of South Park. And Matt. Matt is a very deeply engaged with with with politics. And I find his, his politics a very interesting. blend of of you would not be able to say if he's a Democrat or a Republican. And I thought this was a match and I had them to dinner. and it was a disaster. Okay, so we have another question here from someone who's just caught left.

Her name is Anna, but her email is Anna Graham, which is pretty good. She's saying obviously Trump. 2.0 much more oppressive than Trump won during Trump one. We know there are all sorts of people that went to the white House. thinking they could put up guardrails. Is there anybody with good intentions still left in the Oval Office, or are they. all they're just helping themselves hand over fist?

Yeah, I mean, that's it. I mean, there's nothing you cannot say. Find any any hopeful. Yeah, there there is I mean, this is. this second administration is a, what you see. is what you get. So, Thomas, see who wants to know. Did you get security clearance when you were hanging out of the white House? Was that ever a thing? No, it was never a thing, right? No.

I mean, you don't really need security. Clear. I mean, that's that's not. I mean, you need security clearance if you're getting a job, but, deputy assistant observer, apparently. I didn't didn't need that. I mean, you get. I mean, it's it's actually it's not hard to get into the white House. You just need someone in the white House to, as they say, put you in the system, put you in the system. So, Mars. Holden Montini, what a marvelous name. Wants to know if the if the Democrats win the midterms.

Do you think Trump accepts it? Well, I think it's a question. By what? By what measure do they win? You know, there are. there's a. numerical threshold in which, you know, there's not much you can do that just your. you the numbers overwhelm any kind of resistance you could put up. If it's close, well, then it's going to be then.

it's trench warfare for for quite some time. Trench warfare. Will any of Trump's children turn on him. That is a question by from Erin Gotland. What what is Trump's relationship with his children. I mean he didn't go to Don Juniors second wedding. He he's their employer. I mean I mean I really think that is. they they understand the money flows from there. The business is there.

They don't they don't have they don't have a separate life from that. He's he's, he's the boss. And, and and I think that. whatever the, the the psychological. You know, it's not pretty. You know, he doesn't treat them well. He doesn't regard them well, you know, you know, he thinks they're, you know, especially the boys are. inferior. You know, he went around for a while saying about about Don Jr.

He wished he could take his name back. I mean Trump. Trump is not, to say the least, is not a nice guy. I mean, he's a prick. I mean, in in certain in the, in the most basic way to his to his family, to his children. It's it's, you know, and I mean, I think that they're all.

Broken in their own way. I mean, I remember and I may be the only person that read Ivan's memoir, in which she refers to herself as America's mother. Where she basically talks. about having the three children, Ivan, Don and Eric. And then basically, at age 18, handing them over to Donald Trump and him taking them into the business. I mean, they went to college, but that he took them in and then sort of made them work for him.

Do they do they like him? Do they respect him? Are they terrified of him? Yeah. No, I think that they're, you know, I mean, just imagine if your father was Donald Trump. I mean, having to put up with that. But at the same time, having to be being beholden to that. I mean, I think at some point you just mean, I guess you either flee. and they haven't fled or you accept. What else can we do?

So you have often said that the one person that got out of Trump. won ahead was Jared Kushner. Can you talk about the son in law's role right now? I mean, I find it amazing that he seems to have been given this global. at large diplomatic role, which he does with his little chum, Steve Wycoff, the the, you know, the former golf buddy. who's being talked about now as a potential replacement for Susie Wiles.

We haven't talked about Susie. We should do that too. But but let's just have a minute on Jared and Steve. Yeah. You know, I mean, I've said that Steve Bannon is the most opportunistic person. I've ever met, but, but Jared is the, the most, Wildly opportunistic person I've ever met. I mean, you know, I, I used to think Jared was a kind of a weakling, not least of all because Bannon.

used to make fun of him in the white House in a particularly cruel kind of way. But at the end, I mean, Jared is really the only person. who has who survived the first administration. And I think that he has. he was the one person in the first administration. who could work Trump, who could handle Trump, who understood him. And and what he understood is, you know, you just.

you just had to. you could only do what. in his case, his father in law. wasn't interested in doing. And he understood the margins at which you could you could. then operate, and I think and then. and then he was intelligent enough. to get out of the white House. And I think he is back in the white House now, or at least in the white House.

orbit again, tending to his own business interests. And what about Steve Wyckoff? I mean, rumored to be a candidate to replace. Susie Wiles of Steve Wyckoff is a real dummy. I mean a real zero. I mean, he's, he's you know, you know, he's the golf buddy. I mean, what are his credentials? Golf buddy. So, I mean, and in that sense, he'd be he he might be a, you know,

he is the kind of the kind of chief of staff that Donald Trump. wants, a chief of staff who has no pretense that he is there. to do anything else but be the golf buddy and is Susie Wiles. Does Susie Wiles actually have? I mean, you've you've talked about her as not being a typical chief of staff. that she that she is more of an administrator. Does she keep things running on time?

I mean, when when she's not involved in decisions, it does feel like some of them go wrong. Most recently, Katie Zachariah, who Susie Wiles. wasn't involved and didn't know about and very quickly dispatched. Yeah, I know, I don't see that as, as as to exceptional. I mean, Donald Trump largely makes his own personal decisions. You know, the cabinet is filled with people Susie Wiles would not have picked. and in her own way.

try to oppose, but not too much oppose. So and she understands. you just don't cross into Donald Trump's space. She is not there. You know, a typically a a chief of staff. There is is to be the president's ultimate advisor, to be a one of the president's. managers, to be the, a.

to to be the, the. the second most important person in the white House. And she is not that at all and understands. that's not what Donald Trump wants. All of the chiefs of staff of the I think the four chiefs of staff. of the first administration all kind of thought, well, I'm the chief of staff. to the president of the United States, and this is what a chief of staff does. Wrong, wrong, wrong. And that's why Susie Wiles has been.

to date, the most successful chief of staff, because it's it's it's it's all following the Jared model. And remember she's brought into the into the Trump orbit by Jared. She's Jared's person. And it has all been you know you tend to things. you tend to the things that Trump is not interested in okay. So let's talk about Trump and women for a second because we know that.

Melania is not really living in the white House. She treated as if she's a guest when she's there. She's actually spending her time largely in New York or in Florida. Who is? It's no marriage. It's a you know, this is a it's a a a rod of a marriage. that sounded very English, a charade of a marriage. I expect you do to go. It's a charade of a marriage. Anyway, someone asked for more of my impressions. I'm going to save that for more podcasts.

But thank you. You to for for asking more. She wanted more Melania impressions. He is only fire. My husband is only fire of world. Wonderful. Anyway, Natalie harp, I mean Natalie harp. Natalie harp. So when you wrote All or Nothing, which came out, what, two months after Trump had been inaugurated, second time around, and I know you were frantically writing the book.

because we would we would talk in between taking breaths. You kept saying, there is this woman who is just there all the time. Just. are we assuming. and we've certainly talked about this on the podcast that Trump is. Well, you've said that people at the white House assume he's. post sex. Yeah. I mean. I feel it's a former editor of Cosmo. I can raise this legitimately, but it's an interesting question.

He's 80 years old. He's in his ninth decade. He's got swollen ankles. He's got strange bruises on his hand that his mother's in makeup. He's got, let's not forget, 300 pounds. He's well, he says, well he's put on 15 pounds in the last year. Right. He says he's 238 pounds or something. But we know he's not. Okay, let's just assume in on.

the basis of good taste that Trump has post sex. What is what is Natalie Harp doing there? Did everybody here that at the back? Yeah, I I. I, I mean, I think you know and there was so, so during the campaign, she started to become.

a kind of significant presence. around Trump early in the campaign and then became a more. and more and more and more central presence. And, and. I think it was all about this, this kind of she's in love with the guy. She's love sick. I mean, these letters and, you know, the people on in the staff passed me these letters that they that they had.

She used to put letters, you know, she would print out his stuff, the human printer, and, and then in this, in these material. that she would print, she would insert these letters that she had written to him. And this became a subject of great concern by the staff, by the Secret Service. I mean, at one point the Secret Service said. to the said to Susie Wiles, you know, we consider her a threat to,

to the president and to herself. So. So what does that actually mean, that she be a threat to the. she means she's a she's a crazy person and she's she's kind of recognized. Everybody recognized. There's something really off here. And, and that was of a concern. And how did she get into his circle in the first place? I mean, it's not like you could just go up to the present.

It is like you can just go up to the of you. I mean, it's a sort of just a competition of flattery. Who can who can flatter this man more than anyone else? It's a contest. And and she won the contest. I mean, because, I mean, I think deeply I think it's it's. I mean, a lot of people around him are flattering him for cynical reasons. I don't think her reasons are cynical. I think her reasons are she is she's devoted to him.

She somehow fixated on Donald Trump. Imagine. And and and she makes this very, very clear and, and I think he understands that this person is devoted. So people in the in during the campaign. there would be at several points it was this is an emergency. What do we do about this? And there was long discussions.

Do we go to Melania? Do we do we, do we. show go. to the go to the president, the candidate, which they finally did there. There was at one point a, a delegation. And they, you know, speaking in a somewhat of the veiled way, you would have to speak to them. because you're certainly can't confront Donald Trump.

And he said, oh, you know, you know. And then his words were, she just loves her president. I mean, it's I, I think that this is one of those other things. This is over a line beyond the pale, something that, that everyone within the white House. has been forced to accept because. Because he wants it. And how do you think it might end if she's if she's genuinely in love with him?

And if she is, it's clearly a very unusual relationship. How how does it how do you think it might end? I think she'll go back to tomorrow. Lago with him after he leaves the white House. And, you know, I don't know, live out her. life with, with, with or live out his life. I don't, I don't know, I mean, at the same time, remember Donald Trump, even someone who's who adores him.

and, and, and who he's come to count on, that could change in a second. And we know that Melania is. not there that you say the, the marriage is a charade. Does Melania mind about Nataliya. Yeah. I think it's just part of the many grievances. that Melania has against, against her husband of course. Okay. So there's a question here.

I love this question. Wait a minute. Why is it gone? It said, Michael, in the ten years since you've been covering. the white House, was there a moment when you realized. we are really fucked? Let me count them. So, you know, but it. but it becomes. I mean, I guess in the first, in the first administration.

In it. might have been in actually quite early on. when people around Trump would discuss it and say, you know, you know, he he doesn't. And it was kind of convinced, you know, he doesn't read anything. Really. And they would say nothing. And then there would be a kind of discussion. Well, you know, you know, was he a DD.

or was he semi-literate or was he just. actually completely illiterate? Because nothing. You would hand him a piece of paper, shove it away. You had this this gesture, just a wave it wave it away. And so these people in the white House saying this is, you know, I mean, he's the president of the States. This is the most information intensive job on earth, arguably. And, and he doesn't read.

And then they say that's not the only problem. The other problem is that he doesn't listen. And they would say he doesn't listen at all. There is no you just can't interrupt him. It's just a constant monologue. So. he didn't read and he doesn't listen. How do you how do you get information to him? And the answer is he gets no information. I mean, it just doesn't come. And Steve Bannon had a had an analysis.

He said he's an information phobe. He just doesn't he just doesn't want to know. And he certainly doesn't want you to tell him. So I thought I thought, well, you know, this is a. this is this is pretty bad. And is that because he just always wants to be the smartest man in the room. or thought, well, I think it's I, you know, I mean, I think it's the, it's it's it's far different.

There's a lot of people who want to be that and a lot of presidents who no doubt, felt that they were the smartest man in the room. I think that he wants. not to be the dumbest man in the room. So it's a different it's kind of turns that on. Its on its head. I mean, here's a man who I think really, really knows nothing. I mean, profoundly. So no information gets to him.

Everything is made up. Everything comes from him. So it's his entire conception of the world that comes out, and it's a conception of the world that is, that is not in, in, in any way. schooled or discipline or ordered. or informed. Well, you are disciplined and informed. Michael Wolff, someone here, someone called Kate said, I see.

Michael needs much less editing in real life. And in fact you don't need almost any editing. Even when we are editing the podcast, I know we joke about it, but I think that you get a sense from, I hope, our conversation. that the conversations we have on the podcast three times a week, where we venture inside Trump's head or inside Trump's head. For those of you who joined us right at the beginning, Will will know that.

we start conversations, they go where they go. And I hope that you've had the opportunity to sort of see that this evening. I wanted to just say we are hugely grateful. to the people who do listen and watch us. Week after week, it's enormously. encouraging for us to know that you are out there. And please leave us your comments. Those of you in the room, you get Thursday off because we'll be running this evening. Or you can you can listen to it on Thursday.

and see if you can hear your own laugh or your own a heckle. But and you can see if I've been edited, you can see if you've been edited. I don't think you've said anything that would trigger the lawyers. Sometimes Michael says things and the lawyers are like, oh, but, but I think tonight you've been on best behavior. But this is an opportunity for us to thank you. for being such loyal supporters, for leaving your comments. and for encouraging us to to go inside, Trump said.

So a huge thanks to you, to our production team. and to the staff of the Terror Ballroom. To anyone else, I'm sure. Yeah. Thank you. There are more people to thank, but that big shout out to the staff. at the Telegram Ballroom who made all this go relatively flawlessly. I think it's a lovely room. It's very nice sitting up here and, well, we'll be back at it.

Thank you. To join the calls. That's here. Someone someone asked me. what it says on my teacher, and it just says Blondie. So this is for all the blonds out there, Michael, I think I think we're we're due to the stage. Thank you all so much for coming out.

Big thanks to our production team. Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Pesaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many BBC star tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.