This Is My Dark Prediction for How Trump Will Die | The Daily Beast Podcast

On his 89th birthday in my imagination. This is a novel. Donald Trump is celebrating both his birthday. and the 20th anniversary of his first run for the presidency. He is at Trump Tower, throwing down the famous golden elevator, and he dies of a massive brainstem stroke on the elevator. As he is going down, the people who had gathered for a party. decide that it's a deep state assassination and begin. rioting and go out on Fifth Avenue in New York and bash.

pedestrians and car windows and store windows. And it's the first spectacular piece of violence, spontaneous violence that then results a year later. in an uprising in a in a true right. wing uprising. I'm trying to calls this is the Daily Beast podcast, and today's guest has spent the last three years. imagining Donald Trump's death for his novel. So we get into that.

What is it like imagining the president's death for a living? And also we get into which of Trump's goons. has he been hate watching the most recently? And who does he think is emerging as a plausible contender. for the Democratic presidency in 2028? Okay, I'm talking, of course, about our regular guest, Kurt Anderson. Before we get into the conversation, I just want to remind you, please. subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast wherever you get it.

Spotify, Apple, YouTube. And don't forget to leave us a comment on YouTube. after you've watched us telling us your favorite part of the conversation. and who else you would like us to interview. Okay, that's enough throat clearing and preamble. Let's get into it with the author, with a commentator, with the broadcaster, and with the novelist and the man who coined the phrase short. fingered Bulgarian when he was a co-founder of spy magazine.

Kurt Andersen. Kurt Andersen I am so. glad to be clutching a copy of your book, The Breakup. You spent three years writing it, and in that time you have imagined. the death of Donald Trump. A smile crept across your face when I said that. Tell us. Tell us. Can you tell us in the book without too much of a spoiler alert, how he dies?

Because it's not, perhaps, as one would imagine. Well, it is. The book is set in 2045, and there's a. there's a backstory to 2035. when at age 89 on, in fact, on his 89th birthday. In my imagination. This is a novel. Donald Trump is celebrating both his birthday. and the 20th anniversary of his first run for the presidency.

He is at Trump Tower, going down to meet his. throng of January 6th pardons. and MAGA people and Ice agent pardons and this this crowd of his. to celebrate and party going down to the famous golden elevator. And he dies of a massive brainstem. stroke on the elevator as he's going out. Going down. The people gathered.

who had gathered for a party decide that it's a. deep state. assassination and begin rioting and go out on Fifth Avenue in New York. and bash pedestrians and car windows and store windows. And it's the first. spectacular piece of violence, spontaneous violence that then results a year later in a in. an uprising, in a, in a true right wing uprising, terrorist uprising. Because the Democrats meantime, in the last few years, in the early 30s.

have had a full come back into federal power. Okay, so so the breakup refers to two breakups, right? There's a divorce in it, but it really refers to the breakup of America. You as a regular guest on the podcast, you spend a lot of time thinking about. what's happening culturally to America with this, with this current president. And it's odd that we're recording this on Thursday.

and it's actually ten years, I think, to the day since Donald Trump. accepted the Republican nomination to be president. So it's particularly timely that you're that you're here. How much have you sucked out of the chaos. that's going on now to inform this book? It's a good question. I when my last two books were these big nonfiction books about 500 year. American history and 50 years of American history as, as a friend said.

And you like repeating basically my, my two fucking of America books, right? And so those certainly fed into this and, and for a while I was thinking, oh, I should maybe, maybe I should write a nonfiction book. about what the future could hold. I said, no, no, no, no, I'm done with those. I'll return to novels. This is my fifth one. And and so but certainly. I was fed by that and fed by the last three years, as you say. I mean, when I started, I was set in the future. So of course AI would be part of it and robots and all that stuff.

But a month after I started writing, ChatGPT appeared. So it was like, whoa, this is cooperating life with my writing process. And and the Trump thing, of course, he was out of office and, you know, was running. But like, you know, back then and then of course. 23 to 24 and and here he is. So the last year and a half and I was basically done when he took off,

almost done when he took office. This time, the horror show. of this term, The Nightmare beyond what I expected to tell the truth. And I'm not alone in that, obviously. And what one of my characters expected. who never thought her husband was. overblown and hyperbolic in thinking, oh, this time it's going to be a threat to democracy and all these things. Well, it was one of his, you know, I told you so moments to his wife in this,

in this story and and so yeah, the. what has happened last year and a half. didn't require any kind of wholesale. restructuring of my story, which was basically complete, but certainly required me to go through and darken. the backstory and, and make, you know, the Trump. 20s, as one of the characters calls them, more horrible and nightmarish.

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It's crossed my mind as we think about the way that Trump. seems to be setting the groundwork for the midterms. I mean, I have thought, and especially because we interviewed Doctor Ruth Bangor. last week, the academic from New York University. who writes about autocracy and about repression. Is this a moment where actually America. could break apart that if.

if the election feels inconclusive, is it possible? And I can't I can't even believe I'm saying it out loud. But is it possible that there is real violence, that there is. some kind of civil war in America, and you tackle that in the book? I guess my question, as for you as a novelist, is what does it feel like imagining. and writing about violence in the country that you live in?

Is it is it good karma to do that? That's a good question. I hadn't thought of it as bad karma or good karma. I think it's useful to squarely and clear. idly face the various possibilities, the various contingencies. And I'm not saying this is inevitable, or even that it's probable, but I'm saying certainly that it's possible. And I think I've depicted it plausibly. And I think that in the last year and a half, in the last three years.

since I was began writing this book, it has become much less far fetched. than it seemed when I began as, oh, this would be interesting to think about. So no, it. I don't. So I don't think it's bad karma, because I do think it is so difficult. to think about and so horrific to think about the war and the violence, let alone breaking the country into parts. But I also think I've, you know, will provide an ability for people.

to look at this future possibility in some. with some basis for thinking about it and some framework for thinking about it. All right. Well, I'm going to come on to the blurbs you've got in a moment. and ask you how much you paid for them, because the blurbs for. this book are outrageous. But I wanted to ask you something else first. You've got a very good line in there about how American journalists. refer to everything as a tragedy. And I'm actually going to quote it. And you go. Life is half tragedy, for Christ's sake, maybe more than half,

which is one of the reasons why I grade almost everything on a curve. And I guess my question is, are we living through an American tragedy? A short answer, yes. I do think that we are already. in a tragedy and and I, I, I don't see how we get out of it. suddenly or without pain. of some degree between here and whatever the end is.

I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? I find is to imagine. a happy ending now, a happy ending for Trump or a happy ending for America. Well, for America. And what I want to say is, I mean, this this book is immediately categorized. by the algorithms as, oh, it's dystopian, maybe dystopian satire, but still dystopian fiction. And and I had a conversation with my friend and blurb, Gary Shteyngart,

who writes dystopian satires, and he's he's got a great. But we'll go on to that in a minute. But I said, do you think of your fiction as just told me? He said, it's. And basically he said, it's their comedy, so sure. But and I said, I agree because I feel like dystopias are where. there are zombies and everything is collapsed. and it's rubble and wreckage and oh my God, it's horrible. I mean, on the other hand, if you. want to say we're in, we're we're in a, in a quasi dystopian situation.

Now, I'd buy that too. So but but I feel. one of the things I ended up writing with the breakup is, is an ending. I wouldn't call it a happy ending, because there's a war. and there's breaking up of the country. But as with divorces and some of us at this table. have been divorced and, and and you know, one knows they're painful. and complicated and awful.

in many ways and some many worse than others. But, you know, sometimes they're mandatory. and sometimes there's no other way to manage such a thing. And. Well, and they can also be new beginnings. Precisely. There is my wife, who last I looked were still married, said to me. as we were talking about this very thing the other day. She said about the book, not our marriage, not your divorce, not or not your pending divorce. She said, you know, and no, she said, you know, it's horrible and awful and.

and if you're lucky, liberated, you know, and so I, you know, I think so in my, in real life and certainly, certainly in my story five, ten years from now, 15, the war. itself looked pretty horrible and dystopian. But I think, you know, out of out of facing the facts and dealing with the facts at hand,

if we can ever do that. And then see, that's the thing with this book in this story really is, it's hard for me to imagine how. we go back to, you know, pursuit of happiness and everybody getting along. without some giant spasm. that that provokes everybody looking at things the way they are, just it's hard to imagine a great leader will come.

John Ossoff will come and lead us all together back to a normalcy, maybe. And that would be great. And I hope it happens. But but for many years and more these days, I feel like. the likelihood that it's. impossible for that to happen in a normal way. without some kind of fever breaking invasion, civil war, I don't know. Who knows. It could be many things, but just on our own, given everything, given the the way we live in our digital bubbles and hate the other.

and hate the other and hate the other, and have and have different. views of how life should be led and countries should be governed. It's hard to imagine it without such a, such a, such a violent, literally violent or or not rupture of some sort. Here's something most people don't realize. There are companies called data brokers. making billions by collecting and selling your personal information.

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Okay, so you quote in. in the beginning of the book in your page of quotations. Actually, one of my favorite authors, Charles Dickens, and I hadn't read this full quote for a long time, and I'm actually going. to get you to read it for us, because people will know the first line. But we often forget what follows. And actually, someone else was imagining this 120 years ago. Another writer. So why don't you?

Why don't you do it? Shouldn't you be reading it? Well, you know what? I was going to read it. And then I thought, you know what? I asked the author to read it. And I'm not asking you. to read your own words, which is probably cheeky, but it's also. very it's very relevant to what you're talking about. And of course, he was writing. about a completely different world 120 years ago, which at the time. seemed as disruptive as what we're living through now, I think. Absolutely right. And I so I'm really happy you have me to do this because again, it's.

instead of just the famous first line, it's it goes on so beautifully. It's so good, so evokes the present moment. And of course, he's writing about another revolution, the previous revolution, the. at that point, 70 year old French revolution. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom. It was the age of foolishness. It was the epoch of belief. It was the epoch of incredulity. It was the season of light. It was the season of darkness.

It was the spring of hope. It was the winter of despair. We had everything before us. We had nothing before us. We were all going direct to heaven. We were all going direct the other way. It's so good, isn't it? And it gave me goosebumps, to tell you the truth. Yes, it does well and it gives me goosebumps hearing you read it. And I'm rereading Great Expectations at the moment. Which and I'm one. You mean the best book? Well, maybe the best. Well, I don't know. It's one of the top talking about that. One of the top five. Yes, definitely.

And I was thinking about. The Atlantic, wrote a piece, and in fact, I was going to ask you this question. The Atlantic just wrote a long piece saying it's we're experiencing. the ending of reading. So I wanted to know what you thought about writing a novel. If we're going through the end of reading. In the piece, she talks about how our syntax and our grammar. is getting more simple that actually because precisely because people aren't. reading people like Dickens who write in long sentences. with endless clauses and complicated plotlines.

that you have to follow, were actually all getting slightly simpler. But what. did you think. about writing a novel for people now? Novels feel less, somehow less relevant. I find them much harder to read, and I thought the piece in The Atlantic. was both ridiculous, but also led to a greater truth, which is if you don't write and you don't read as much, your thinking changes all beautifully and perfectly said. What I think is that.

ambitious literature. has always been read by minorities mostly, which is a minority of the population. It's not as though, I mean, yes, well, it's an elite pastime, we should say. Exactly. And of course, Dickens was not. And but but I think, yes, the novel way. before there was were computers, which is to say in my youth, in your. even your baby hood practically and starting around. the 70s and 80s, you know, there are exceptions along the way.

Tom Wolfe wrote a novel that was very, very popular and was a serious oh, The Bonfire of the vanities, which my then husband we went on safari. I had taken with me. in The Bonfire of the vanities, and he complained the entire trip. I never once. looked up to look at the animals because I was so riveted by such a good book. It was a good it is a good book. And he was not so much for his fiction, although I was impressed by that. coming out, but by his earlier nonfiction. But,

you know, but but there was back in when I was a young person, a child where Gore Vidal and all kinds of novelists. I mean, John Updike, Philip Roth were big celebrities. on the cover of time magazine, which was a giant thing, which was itself a on The Tonight Show, all those things. So all the ways in which novelists and novels were central. to the culture peaked, you know, 40, 50 years ago.

And so, so I grew up, I didn't start writing novels until 1996. Nine. So that's the that's the world we've been given. So is it less so? We'll see. I you know, there are still giant bestsellers. that are much, much longer than this book, you know, for instance. So, you know, it's, it's. and our 330 million people in this country, if,

if 330,000 of them read a book, it's a gigantic bestseller. So it doesn't need to be for everybody as long as it, you know, in the ones hope. that that people read it and it affects how they think. about the world and people and all the rest. So I don't it doesn't. I sure, and I worry about. in the best of times, worst of times. approach to what AI will do to us. Well, were I to have grandchildren.

and hope I will hear that Kate and Lucy, right? Well, yes, Kate and Lucy. I think that's a sign. I think your father speaking to the podcast, we've had these conversations, but you know how how. it will be to have to think. less and write less as a child growing up today where he is. a Claude, tell me everything I need to know about this. And I use it, and it's useful.

But the the downside of that of of of making one. think more simply making one be more about images than text. We'll see. We had it Costa on the podcast last Friday and he. former CEO of Twitter. And he is investing now in a lot of AI. But he says he fears AI actually signals the end of thinking. that we're all going to think differently because this thing thinks for us.

So why would you. do the hard work of thinking and trying to sort something out for yourself? If someone, if something else can do it so fast for you, know, that is the great fear. And you know, because it's an epic of ignorance and an epic of genius or whatever, right? Belief and incredulity. Well, indeed. But then for those of us who have already learned to think and. Right, it's an extraordinary tool. Just in my little but less little these days, use of it.

as as this super hyper amazing research tool. and and instead of just having a thesaurus record, what's that adjective? I'm thinking I can have a conversation about the precise context of the word. I'm looking for. So I find for. So basically for smart people, it'll make you smarter. for people who have no ability. You know what? Either aren't there yet or just like, aren't particularly curious or, you know, interested in reading.

Well, you'll get stupider. I mean, I mean, that's the that's the hard way to look at it. Similarly with, with the wealth situation, what we'll do to the political economy, you know, if we keep if we continue. having this version of capitalism in this country, we do. And, you know, the Zuckerberg's. and Elon's, Elon's of the world, you know, have all the money. and are the tech and control big tech as they do today.

Well, then that's pretty dystopian. But so however, if if AI can be part of creating. such bounty and such and relieving people of the need to do. drudge filled labor, and there's all this bounty to share, we could share it and would be a closer to utopia than dystopia. So, you know, and that's the question of what you want to live in Norway, in the United States in 50 years, I don't know. We'll see a good question.

Which one will melt faster? Well, I wonder that. All right. I'm going to I'm going to read a couple of blurbs from for your book. And then I want to move on to talk about another dystopian figure, Pete, who I know you've been you've been watching this week. All right. This is from Gary Shteyngart. pairing two divorces, one personal, one, not one national. Within a novel that's funny and beautiful is something few writers could do. Thank you, universe, for Kurt Andersen and this page turner.

If that isn't painting the universe, who writes that? How much did you pay him? I bought him a drink afterwards. I did buy him a drink. All right. But it was. It was. It was afterwards. And it wasn't promised. It was just a friendly drink. Okay. All right. And then another quote. This is from Walter Isaacson, who, of course, wrote the books, the biographies on Elon Musk and Steve Jobs. Kurt Anderson is the most brilliant social novelist of our time. In the tradition of Tom Wolf, who you mentioned and on DeLillo, but. even funnier and deeper, with a light touch and an instinct.

for telling details, he mixes pitch perfect satire with profound insights. Okay, that's enough, and here's my promise to. is that we will call the white House and ask them what they think of you. Imagining Donald Trump's death on the golden escalator. We'll see what he says. We'll see what machine gun lips. Caroline Levitt. Yes. Or Steven Chung, my favorite of those people. Well, Steven Chung is better on. He's a he's a scumbag. He's better on the brutal, brutish thing.

But interestingly, I had a book out in 2009 called reset. that the New York Post called Donald Trump to ask about, and because I compared him in that book unfavorably to Warren. Buffett, who I knew as a child because we both grew up in Omaha. Oh, of course, Nebraska. Right. And saying, Warren, good, good billionaire. Donald idiot Donald Trump in 2009. Bad billionaire.

And he he gave a great quote and included me in his pantheon of third rate writers. Well, he probably loved the fact he called him a bad billionaire. because he probably wasn't a billionaire at that point. Technically. Right. But he just that that seems to be as long as you describe him as rich, he's happy. Yeah, that's probably true. All right. So let's talk about the goons that he has around him. You mentioned Jon Ossoff earlier, Jon Ossoff, particularly good filleting both. Jay Clayton, who's standing for the.

national intelligence job to replace Tulsi Gabbard, and the acting intelligence chief, Bill Pulte, and also Pete Hegseth. What did you think of his hearings? I am I keep a running list in my head. Have since 2017 of who in in Washington. Basically I am most viscerally. I find just the loathing I feel on a visceral level. beyond kind of beyond policy.

Just who do I really hate? And it changes and I rank them 1 to 10. I haven't done it in a while, but. Pete is very high up there right now, and I. and I, I hate watch him. avidly. And so I loved the hate watch him avidly. The confrontation of calm, even keeled, never yelling, but not without emotion.

Senator Ossoff talking to him about. basically it was about this was a this was a hearing, I think, of is this where he's he's asking for more money. He's asking for. Yeah. So it's the appropriation money. It's the Senate Appropriations Committee. And Ossoff is saying, well, four months ago, 16 days or whatever it was into the war, you were saying, we have destroyed their military and their combat. incapacitated, I think was the phrase or something close.

And he said, was that an inaccurate statement? So it was a very kind of not you liar, you whatever. Was that an inaccurate statement? And of course, he says, well, we sunk the Navy, which is like, oh, we were one is so worried about the Iranian Navy before we sunk it in a day. And so the thing that he and Trump always said, well, we suck the Navy and we. we got rid of the Air Force. So we didn't answer the question. And he said, I'm asking you, Mr. Hex, if that was an accurate statement.

You also said this. He repeats this again and again, and each time. Seth getting angry and angrier, and his high tea. way. Doesn't answer and just says, no. Well, we did this and we did this. And and then also asked him, but he just. he basically just and keeps even keeled asking, was that an accurate statement or was that accurate statement? And then finally I actually.

Wrote it down. I mean, yes, Iran's military has been completely destroyed. Combat ineffective. That's not accurate, is it? And he just never will give in. And just in his increasing undone ness. at being asked this very simple question was, were you wrong. when you said, this war is about over four months ago or not? And he wouldn't, and it was just he was you could see the in his comic book way,

the the smoke coming out of his head as calm young Jon Ossoff. was questioning him. It was fantastic. So also seems to have shot up. We've discussed this on Trump's head, seems to have shot. up the ladder of Democratic hopefuls. I mean, two appearances that suddenly put him in front of people. and as you say, incredibly calm. Wasn't reading. I mean, I always find it. interesting and I find it, frankly, a bit disappointing, the level of questioning.

that goes on from senators and the way they lead, the way. they read the questions and you think, are you not on top of this material? Did your people not brief you? Are you nervous? You're going to get it wrong. But but and sometimes you're sitting on the edge of your seat. worrying that they're going to get the question out wrong somehow. And you had none of that anxiety with him. He seemed completely in control of the material, wasn't going to get annoyed.

And as you say, the contrast with Pete Seth just seemed increasingly obvious. Do you trust this man? And also who was in charge of. two veteran affairs associations, both of which. he left unceremoniously after people complained? He was a chaotic manager and there were financial shenanigans? Yes, yes. As opposed to this multi-trillion dollar operation, he's now running. No. And it was extraordinary. So, Assaf, I mean, again, what Assaf has in addition to being smart,

obviously is is just enough performative ability. And in this day and age to be considered. as a possible president, certainly that's a necessary thing, whether you're, you know, Barack Obama or, in his way, Donald Trump. You need to. be a good character in the show. And by the way, congressional hearings are shows.

They just are, you know, I mean, yes, when I was 17 years old. or 18 years old, watching the Watergate hearings, there was apparently revelations. about the white House secret taping system existing. But they knew that. they knew that ahead of time that that was going to be the big story of the day. It's a show. And so you have to, you know, both put on a show but not seem. too much like you're putting on a show, which is one of problems. And many of the well and Pam Bonds problem and Christie gnomes problem.

that they come and they're like, this is for an audience of one, I'm. going to get really angry because that's what worked for Brett Kavanaugh. Exactly. I think he sort of set the standard Kavanaugh shows. Yeah, the sort of red face, puce Angus Fleck spitting fury. Well, especially when he was facing then Senator Kamala Harris, who was, again, this kind of calm prosecutorial questioner. No. Absolutely. That's right. And they I mean, because the WWE in professional wrestling sort of.

is so much their model. for the show in the largest sense of the Trump show, you know, no, the Pam Bondi comes on as a caricature of a villain. I'm a tough villain lady and in his cartoon were in his hair, which I was worried. as I was calling my hair, I said, and I said, it's my hair a little. Two Hegg Sethi but. no, he. and his little stupid oh, his pocket square, his pocket.

She's like an accessory you would buy from American Girl dolls, right? He is. He's like a cartoon character. But he also he's like a cartoon character in the famous Lichtenstein pop. art pictures of of of these, you know, military heroes going pop bang. That's he's ridiculous. Which is why I like watching him as much as I do. Who are the other cabinet members that you similarly. I mean, you said you had a list of the worst people around Trump.

Pam Bondi now left Christie names now left. Actually, the women are basically left. Who are the others that you hate? Watch. Well, Bobby Kennedy, of course, and Kennedy, from whom you bought cocaine when you were at Harvard. The one time I bought cocaine in my life, he was my cocaine dealer. Right. But for instance, as Pete Hegseth now in his caricature, self parodying way, once every member of the armed services, all several million of them, including women to get tested for whether they have high, low,

potentially low testosterone because obviously he's wouldn't. they shouldn't be as jacked up as I am. I'm sure what he's thinking interestingly, of course, Bobby Kennedy not so long ago. on Stephen Miller's Wife's podcast, said you may be one of the only people. That's what Stephen Miller's wife people give Katie Miller podcast. This podcast, Bobby Kennedy said that Mehmet Oz, the actual doctor who works for Bobby Kennedy.

and the Health and Human Services Department, said that he checked over. Donald Trump's testosterone levels and that he, Doctor Oz, had never seen a level that high in somebody over 70. So they're just all and, you know, and of course, Hegseth and and Bobby. Kennedy famously, you know, did their pull ups together. in jeans and shirtless because they're just, you know, in this, I don't know, to me, kind of homo erotic gym rat.

photo op life that they're all about. And like, I mean, I got my test high t and and so but but yeah, Bobby Kennedy, I mean he's not you don't see him that much anymore. He's he's he's not as front and center and and and I'm assuming. that's deliberate, that they understand that the vaccines really don't play. They might play with a curious part of the MAGA base, but they don't play with the entire MAGA base. That's true. And he I think I also think he's not.

he's not smart and he's kind of dumb, but he's not. I think he's maybe thinking about his next chapter and like, maybe it's time to sort of separate myself from this guy a little bit, you know, although still occasionally. on in, in, in the Family in Katie Miller's podcast reminding. everybody that the president has very, very high testosterone, high testosterone. So he's separating himself from Trump. And clearly the Trump people. I'm sure this is organized by Susie.

Wiles, a slightly separating themselves from him. What about JD Vance? Have you read JD Vance book communion? Yes, and I moved on to other things. I moved on to regime change. But no, I haven't, and I'm eager to because he is he is. He's also in my top ten of loathsome. I mean, maybe the maybe number one. Again, I won't commit to that now because I haven't thought it through. But JD Vance may be the top. because he's just such.

so completely craven combined. with what has seemed along the way and what he what he what he. makes a show of. being, you know, this sanctimonious searching for God and purpose. and and escaping his, his unhappy childhood and all that. So the. the sanctimony, which I understand. the book is full of and and about his his journey to a better version.

of Catholicism than the Pope himself has, has done. But have you read it? I'm I'm slightly stuck on page 100. I had a sort of run at it, and it's as far as I can see. It's really about him looking for something to do. And I haven't quite. got to the Catholicism, but yet I've got to the point where he meets. Peter Thiel and Peter Thiel, like the Pied Piper, leads him off to Silicon Valley. Have you watched his wife's podcast, Story Time with the Second Lady?

Again? I've seen all eclipse. I saw I watched the her whole one with the president, which again, was just such. a wonderful spectacle of the man I call, among other. things, the greatest self-parody of all time, Donald Trump. It was just remarkable. So that was remarkable. But no, I've not watched Usher's other. podcasts. Well, it's worth watching because we have Cheryl Hines, so she talks.

So the story she chooses is that's my Bobby Kennedy wheelhouse. Well, exactly. And the story she chooses to read is The Three Little Pigs. And when you asked her, why did you choose this story? Literally, Cheryl Hines says, apparently without irony, I like pigs. It just hangs in the air there. And JD Vance, whose story is it's. AA mill and it's Christopher Robin, which he manages to overcomplicate.

He he says it's quite difficult to understand the beginning and it's like. it's literally the easiest, most beautiful children's story you could imagine. Winnie the Pooh, Winnie the Pooh JD Vance talks about Winnie. the Pooh with JD Vance, reads Winnie the Pooh stories. That was my first important book was Winnie the Pooh. The wonderful books. Absolutely wonderful book. Some great illustrations. by the audiobook of Joanna Coles reading Winnie the Pooh. Oh, maybe I should do that. Maybe I should do that. Right.

And then you can do it in the Melania accent as well, and I. Oh, I would love it even more. Yeah. How would you go? Vinny of Vinny the pool. Yeah I read Vineta, Puerto Baron, Barron Trump. He no like books Baron. He liked Tate brothers. Tate brothers. Are the Tate's going to be extradited? I thought it was a good move that the white House said they weren't. going to stand in the way of the Tate brothers, and if the British wanted to take them back, they could. I don't know how fast moving. Yeah, I was very surprised by that because they helped them get out of Romania.

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm so horrified by them. and Andrew, who I know more about than the brother that I don't. And I know what I'm going to find if I read more so I don't I know the basic. horror show, you know, misogynist warriors stories that they are. I enjoyed watching the arrest, though, and I enjoyed seeing what Andrew Tate, because I'm superficial. at some level was wearing which is which is to say, as Tom Nichols.

I think said, and I agreed with him, extended Tom Nichols at the Atlantic. Atlantic, he said, basically. somebody said, what are these? Are these shorts or these what are the pants? But he's wearing. And he said, no, they're Capri pants, which which Mary Tyler Moore made famous. back in the 60s, which I thought was hilarious, being old too, and remembering the Dick Van Dike show in Mary Tyler Moore. And I saw that he, in fact, he had on the same flats, the same sort of slippers that Mary Tyler Moore wore on that show,

in which I was able to add to the comparison, but no. So I enjoyed that. And God knows they should be sent back. And and, you know, those are some aliens that should be said, be deported. Certainly. But no, I have not. I mean, that's you know, I have a, I have a, I have. a, I have a maximum of trash I need in my mind at any moment. So the Tates have not yet really. I don't want more of them in my head, but fair enough.

Well, let's hope that Andy Burnham, the new Prime Minister of Britain, can. put them up on trial about Andy Burnham. Far away. I won't be a long conversation. And again, superficial. Why does Burnham look so like care Starmer. And there's been previous prime ministers who looked there's like there's one. you know white man Englishman look that those two have and others have. And then occasionally there's the, you know the Indian British guy.

And then there's the women occasionally, but otherwise they all look like. this kind of Wingecarribee guy. Why is that interesting? I actually hadn't thought they looked similar, partly. because I think they give off such different energy. And Andy Burnham, first of all, who knew that there could be a labor politician who was quite so ruthless? I mean, the the ability he's had to get rid. of Keir Starmer, who made the party electable,

who took over from the real socialist Jeremy Corbyn, who made labor unelectable socialism a bad name. and gave socialism a terrible name and was an anti-Semite. How Keir Starmer managed to lose his job, having been elected. with such a big majority of labor MPs, is really a testament to Andy. Burnham extreme ambition, and that he got someone.

to leave their seat because you have to be an MP to be prime minister. He was the mayor of Greater Manchester, he had been a cabinet minister. and had left the cabinet to go and to go and run. Manchester, which he he did pretty successfully actually. But he's got. extreme ambition and he's got an energy that Keir Starmer doesn't have. Kiss Dahmer was a prosecutor. I mean, he was head of the Crown Prosecution Service. and he treats everything as if it's a legal problem. He's got no ability to speak about vision and he's a terrible public speaker.

He's the guy that got the party elected, and then he's had to step aside, and now he's hustling to be the secretary general of the UN, because why wouldn't you want to fly around countries. dispensing advice despite the fact you couldn't run your own country? I just I mean, and as you say, he was overwhelmingly elected. and made labor electable again, but also because they don't all look the same. Boris Johnson didn't know Boris Johnson, neither one. Boris. Agree? Totally sure.

I'll send you the two pictures I saw together of Starmer and Burnham. and saying, well, you know, and it's partly when a certain kind of guy. standing outside ten downing and and looking like this and worried. this like trying to look serious in the same way they tend to look but they do. They're also just they're just like, I don't know, they're funny Englishmen to me, they're funny Englishmen. Well, the interesting thing about Andy Burnham, actually, I love Andy Burnham, I can tell. No, no, I don't love Andy. Ben. My, my, I'm I'm. The jury is out.

Andy Burnham for me. My jury is out. Except that I like that he comes from the North because I come from the North. So I appreciate that. I get that, I get that, but I also like the fact that he could stand and talk to people without a podium. You know, how normally and, and there's been this character hot podium guy. who's the guy that carries the podium out for the seven prime ministers. that Britain has had over the last ten years. Yeah, well, 5 in 4 years and 7 in 10 years. But he's become a character because people are like, oh, it's that guy again.

He comes out with his big arms and he's carrying the podium. Andy Burnham didn't. want to compete with hot podium Guy, so he did it without the podium. Just spoke to people. He's a very good politician. The difference between them, they may look similar. because they're both guys of a certain age, but. But Keir Starmer was a terrible politician. and Andy Burnham is a ruthless politician. And that may be that May was the good politician. Yeah. Rishi Sunak not a great politician.

to technocratic, probably the smartest of all of them. And actually if he'd had a bit longer, might have helped with the economy. And Liz Truss, you know, head of lettuce, was there ever a better. I mean, the head of lettuce remains the best political commentary. Well and they just had the head of lettuce, do you remember? And it was like, who will last longer this head of lettuce. And and it wasn't the head of lettuce with Cyclospora. Yes. As far as we know.

Another another. treat from RFK Juniors FDA. Yes. Well, no indeed. And one that that now we're getting to the problem. Well, we already had, of course, with the measles. Not epidemic yet, but outbreaks that he's responsible for the. the FDA just not dismantling. But whatever degradation is is that's that's a very worrisome thing. Well on people really dumb and.

stomach issues. So general most people don't most people don't. Curt Anderson, it's always a treat to have you in the in the studio. Thank you for coming in. And I look forward to hearing what the white House say about the breakup. and how you've spent your last few years imagining Donald Trump's step. Wow. It was a treat to me. And even though it doesn't come out for another several weeks, it can be ordered now so people can preorder the breakup. on Amazon or anywhere, or your independent bookshop.

Correct? Your independent bookshop. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Same. I love hearing from Kurt Andersen. I really enjoyed reading his book, and there's almost no Donald Trump. in it, actually. So don't feel that you're going to be pursued by the man. who seems to be in our waking consciousness at all time. But.

Right. And tell us what you thought about the conversation. Who do you hate? Watch among the current cabinet, and we'll be back on Monday. with David Rothkopf to start your week with David's insights. Thank you. If you have been for watching, for listening. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. The reason we can bring you conversations like this is because. we are independent media and a big shout out to our production team. Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Pissarro, and Neil Rosenhaus.

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