The Sinister Truth About My Interview With Epstein | The Daily Beast Podcast

So I've asked you about about Ghislaine. Well, what struck you when you talked to Jeffrey Epstein. and about the way he talked about young women? That they were really disposable service providers, sort of like landscapers and disease annoyances. that just wanted to be paid again and didn't. really deserve to be. I'm trying to call this is the Daily Beast podcast.

Today's guest comes armed with a tape. of his conversation with Jeffrey Epstein. And we're going to be playing you clips from that tape, literally, a voice from the grave. And this was when our guest, George Rush, was running the most important gossip column in New York. He and his wife, Joanna molloy, ran a column called Rush and Malloy, which was the first thing you had to read every morning. to understand what the city's power brokers were up to.

Well, of course, Jeffrey Epstein was up to no good as George. Rush had learned from a tip. from someone living on Al Brillo Way, which is where Jeffrey Epstein had his Florida mansion in Palm Beach. And what George Rush heard from Epstein's neighbor. was that, yes, he was out of jail, but he was up to his old tricks. So we're going to play you some of the clips from that interview.

and talk to George about what it was like when Epstein called him. But before we do that, before we get to those clips, just, a plea. We are almost at 600,000 subscribers. Please, if you haven't. Do subscribe to the Daily Beast. Join our beast tier of membership where you get extra content, exclusive content. And don't forget to leave us a comment. telling us what you made of this conversation.

But now let's get into it. George, welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. Let's start at the beginning. You were a fabulously well known gossip columnist in New York City, presiding over a hugely influential column at the Daily News. And you started hearing things about Jeffrey Epstein. I, was familiar with his name, but I really didn't know very much. about him, and I was vaguely aware that he'd had some legal problems.

where he was alleged to have, abused young women. And I had a couple of friends in Palm Beach. who were much more avid about following his movements, and he had just been released from the Palm Beach. sheriff's, stockade, as they called the jail down there. And stockade House came very west.

Sound like cattle. And he had reached this what was it called? A sweetheart deal to plead to the much. reduced charge of soliciting prostitution, and he had completed a work release sentence. where he would only spend nights at this stockade jail, sleeping there. And during the day he was free to go to his office, where he supposedly was pursuing his philanthropy.

And we should just point out, soliciting prostitution from a minor. Yes, from a minor. And it's abiding friends in Palm Beach. This one lady in, particular name, Morrison, who was a kind of socialite who had turned herself. into a private detective, believed that he was up to his old tricks. and was still trying to recruit. poor, underage girls, some of whom were on the edges.

of the adult entertainment sex massage area. and lure them to his mansion. So I dug into the litigation. In particular, this suit filed by Jane Doe 102, as she was known then later to be revealed as, Virginia Giuffre, the best known, of his accusers and victims.

I was astonished by her testimony of how Gillian. Maxwell, his former girlfriend and, hench woman, had made her acquaintance, introduced herself at the Mar-A-Lago club. where Virginia and worked in the locker room. And Geylang, she said, had asked her. if she would be interested in becoming a masseuse. And Virginia said, I don't know anything about it. Oh, it's easy to learn and you can make a lot of money.

And so in this testimony, said Guillén eventually. brought her over the Epstein Mandarin, showed her to the massage room. where she saw this naked man, and assumed that that was par for the course. and that Guillen had been removed her own shirt, and stripped down to her underwear, but. remained topless and demonstrated by rubbing her breasts across,

Epstein, that this was what a Virginia should do. And again, in this testimony, she said that the over. the course of this encounter, Guillen and Epstein had, abused her, violated her, and at the end of it said, she has a promising future that the words that effect. so I, talked to other people around that story.

Her lawyer, Brett Edwards, and. eventually put together a list of questions that, I wanted to give Epstein and Maxwell the opportunity to respond to. And I had once had dinner with Elaine and some other folks. And so I kind of knew her and had her email. I emailed her the questions, and I then I sort of braced myself.

for what the fallout, which came in the form of, our editor in chief, Martin Dunne, saying that, the owner of the newspaper, real estate mogul Mort Zuckerman, had gotten a call from Epstein. Whom he was a, a better friend to than I realized. And Mort, which is the point where every journalist's heart sinks. because you never want to get the owner involved, right?

That's always going to be a nightmare. Exactly. Yeah. And. but, Mort, I knew I was aware that Mort and Epstein. had had a couple of business ventures where, they had launched, a magazine radar, which was, which was quite smart, sort of in the spy magazine. But I remember it was kind of gossipy, pocket gossip about the powerful in New York.

Yeah. And, they'd also made an attempt to buy. New York magazine with a partner named Harvey Weinstein. Great, great, great guys, great guys, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and then Mort Zuckerman, who did at least know how to publish a newspaper was, at least in the business. Exactly. And but, not until these latest DOJ Department of Justice emails came out. did I discover that, Epstein was already.

pursuing his years long quest to, take control. and become the architect, as he put it, of Mort Zuckerman's billions in, in, in, and do his estate planning. And so just to set the stage, Jeffrey Epstein and Mort Zuckerman are friends. But Jeffrey Epstein's ambition is to get his hands on Mort Zuckerman's. Billions of dollars created through real estate.

Yeah, and to be his to be in charge of his estate planning. Exactly. Even though which he was, went to college, much less law school or, you know. Right. But but for which he was planning to charge $20 million a year. The initial, proposal in that document. was for 30 million, which every trust in estate lawyer. just says, no, no, no one has ever gotten that much money. And then when Mort started hemming and hawing,

he Epstein dropped it down to 21 million, you know? So what happens? Does Mort call you and say, George, what are you doing? He's a friend of mine. Or how does it sort of move from there? Well, I had I had drafted a story at that point and Martin Dunne, the editor, again, came over and said, you know, we've got trouble here. Mort has heard from Epstein. I was waiting for him to just say, it's dad. It's, you know, the story should be. sent to the morgue, but kind of to my, excitement.

He's. Martin said that Epstein wants to talk to you. At that point, I don't know whether Epstein had ever given an interview. Maybe maybe one. And so I welcomed that, that chance to to talk to him. And the following week, I went into. Martin's office and, and Epstein called at the appointed time. and he, began.

to spin me, about how I, we respected what, the Daily News did. And because he was a kid from Brooklyn, he came from a poor family. And by the way, he, you know, there aren't many, recordings of Epstein's voice. Certainly not at that point, but in the recordings of depositions. he'd given, he comes off as a,

very educated, sophisticated man. with a sort of admitted landing accent. But on this phone call, he was leaning into his his Brooklyn roots, you know? Okay, so we actually have a clip from the interview. Let's hear it. And I have to say, I mean, as someone who'd only ever heard him, really say he was going to. plead the fifth, the sixth and the 14th instead of just the fifth. Why, he couldn't have pled just the fifth. I do not know.

Before we get into it, just a brief housekeeping aside, the first clip isn't very clear. So if you're listening to this on audio, we've actually got the captions up. on YouTube. But the next three clips are perfectly clear. And you hear that deeply manipulative voice. I was very intrigued to hear this voice, and it is like a voice from the grave. I can judge.

Yeah, yeah. So I went back and. I understood the challenge. of bringing in new technological. Your transition papers. Commercial service industries. prefer people that are doing. mandatory. Certainly before. the international. Institutional interest.

You know, they make stringent rules and it's fascinating to hear. even given it's a tape recording from 20 years ago. I understand he says to you, I understand the charge. of bringing in, attacking the rich guy, and I respect it. Your job is trying to sell papers. Such a classic line. People always say that when you you've got them back to rights. I think that's I think what's potentially more exciting here. is that people not only did it do. they dislike the wealthy, but they dislike lawyers.

And so he then tries to sell you a story about Virginia for a lawyer. Exactly. He he starts to say that a much better. story would involve the truly evil. person of a lawyer who is, using you, George. And the Daily News by by email, asking you to carry water for his outrageous claim that against me.

And I mean, as as. we have come to see part of Epstein's, leverage and approach is. playbook is controlling the media narrative. And in this case, using a combination. of flattery and, you know, it's vague that a threat of of litigation.

to steer you in the direction of telling the story. he wants told and. briefly, his his claim. was that, Brad Edwards, the crusading attorney for many of, Epstein's victims, ultimately successful, was a part of a Ponzi scheme.

that a that Brad Edwards, his former. law firm, had had taken part in. And that firm was, the the chief partner was a man named, Seth Rothstein, who indeed was convicted of a, I think, $1.5 billion, scam where he would sell investors. shares in future,

settlements with, people that the firm was suing, including Epstein and, Rothstein eventually went to prison for, sentenced for 50 years. So can we just dwell on that a moment? Because what's fascinating about this story is that Epstein is actually. selling you or selling you on, obviously, is no money exchanging. hands, a story which in fact turns out to be true. in it is a riveting story, and it doesn't.

mean that the two stories can't coexist. In fact, it turns out that both things are kind of true, that that, Brad Edwards, as you say, the lawyer for Virginia Giuffre's partner, is selling investments to people on future legal settlements. And what I find fascinating about this is he gets 15 years. He is sentenced to five zero years in jail, which is basically 35 times.

longer than the sentence Jeffrey Epstein gets. Yeah. It's and and let me hasten. to add, Brad Edwards. maintained that he himself. was a victim of Rothstein and he had been ripped off. And so it was it was, he viewed it as a speech, as, malevolent vendetta, litigation to scare him away.

from representing these accusers. And yet the court found his, partner guilty. Rothstein guilty and sentenced him to 50 years. It's just an astonishing sideshow to the main Epstein Epstein story. Okay, let me, if I may, quickly, before we forget Brad Edwards. It took him, I think, about six years, but he ultimately. Well, let me back up.

Epstein sued Brad Edwards, saying that you took part. in this Ponzi scheme, and I was a victim of it. Ultimately, Brad Edwards got Epstein to make a settlement with him where. Epstein paid Edwards an undisclosed amount and. issued a public rare public apology, acknowledging that he did it. as a vendetta. And because Brad Edwards was so good at his job. Wow. Okay. Well, he turned out to be very good at his job in terms of representing.

the number of victims that he did and getting them settlement. So should we play another clip? Because here we have you confronting Epstein on his own agreement. I'm looking here at the Non-prosecution agreement. Where where they referred him to you, that you. willfully conspired to knowingly, persuade. and to entice minor females to engage in prostitution. I mean, you actually abandoned. Okay,

that's not that's the thing you did. You successfully. Yeah. It's this is signed by Gerald Lefcourt 927 that does not serve a single. charge is very much accurate. Okay. So just in in everyday conversation, what do you have to say about, you know, if doing that, do you.

Why did you do that? Oh my God, I can't have that confessions. I can't get it. Why don't you tell me I get somebody like that? So what was it like? Sort of talking to him? Did you feel you were being played? I mean, where he says that. Oh, my God, I can't have that conversation. I pled guilty to solicit what I pled guilty to. I can't talk about that anymore. It was a difficult conversation. I could tell right away that he wasn't going to break down.

and say, I'm sorry I did that. And I also was conscious that, you can't. I know, given that he's the publisher's friend, you have to. I can't go too hard. And, you know, I just generally think it's good to be respectful. to people you're interviewing, but, he he was. He wouldn't go into self-reflection, in any way. His main argument was that, in a way, he was the victim of these girls,

that they had deceived him into thinking that they were older than they were, that, they were already working, as miss, misuses and strippers, and they were part of this demimonde that, you know, existed before he came on. And they'd come willfully to his house, to get paid. And as he's played it now, they want to get paid again. And that sentence he got was, in his words, much harsher.

than he would have gotten in New York, which which he said what he did. was essentially like a John on a street corner who, you know, saw a prostitute. And then, you know, when asked her if she was free for an hour or something. and that it was like would have been the equivalent of jaywalking, he said. So, you know, I. wanted to see if he would acknowledge anything.

And, the closest he came was to admit it. in his own way that his, his main mistake was, was kind of getting caught, that he came too close to the line, that he should have been more careful about, you know, exposing himself. So he also he blames the victims and says that they were all prostitutes anyway, and they were trying to charge him twice, first, for the time he paid them, and then they were coming back to get legal, to get.

that Brad Edwards had basically pointed out to them. that they could make more money out of this. But you have a spy also on. you have Miss Marple of El Brillo Way, who's basically saying, listen, this guy has not gotten any better. He's been inside in the stockade, he's come out and there's still girls, a flock of girls going in and out of his his house every day. When you look back on the interview, you did. now with hindsight, obviously were the red flags.

You you see, now that you didn't see then. I guess it, yes. In the sense that, I, I didn't realize the scope of. how he had continued to, resume his trafficking operations. I also didn't realize I thought it was sort of just for his own pleasure. Perhaps. But I didn't realize how wide the network was.

And he was providing a service for his male friends. Yeah. So I'm flying these girls around the world, and. that who who else was involved? So one of the things he's very specific about, is that he wants to leave Guillen out of this. You ask about Guillen, who you know, socially because. she's a figure on the New York social scene, which you're covering in your Russian Malloy column.

Why can you just remind us what he said? And why do you think he was so vociferous about leaving her out of this? I, one I think he. probably, to the extent that he felt. any personal responsibility, it was to Guillen, that he had, you know, viewed himself as having gotten into this trouble. And although I guess we later found out it was with her help, she was,

his second banana, and, didn't want to drag her into the to the shame. He didn't want to be in the shame. I mean, now, one thing that has also emerged is how. the worlds of Palm Beach and New York. City were apart, and that what he was doing there. hadn't really come to light in his New York social circle. He just sort of he disappeared for 13 months.

while he was under water during his sentence. But, you know, many the New York crowd would go down to Palm Beach, but to a great extent, they weren't aware of what was going down. And he didn't want the hometown newspaper splashing it out and. letting everyone making it clear what Guillén had did. and that, you know, that description from that, affidavit that. Virginia Giuffre gave, I think terrified him and that,

you know, Ghislaine, who was sort of his ticket. to the high society European, British, milieu. It he didn't if she was also shamed, she that would be bad for the whole operation. Interesting. And so it I mean, Mort Zuckerman didn't stop you from publishing the story. The story appeared. Yes. So to to Mort's credit, a, I won't say it was sanitized.

There were some, some, the basic facts of it were undeniable. They were in, public records. And, the lead kind of became that. that Epstein had reached a settlement with one of his accusers. I whether because of my inquiry or not, he had made an it, I guess, an initial settlement with, with, Virginia Giuffre. But, nowhere was Gillon mentioned.

That was the deal where, Mort had asked us to, honor his request. And I've since request to leave her out. And in return, we could. get at. other things. Right? So he didn't want her in any way tainted with his behavior. Because that would stop her from being able to keep his funnel coming home. Right. Fascinating.

And then when the story came out, what was the impact? There wasn't the sort of eruption that we have today. It ran on a Sunday, and they didn't. It didn't, make the splash. I hoped it would. But the people who were aware of the difficulty. of getting it in the paper at all were happy. The the accusers, Brad Edwards, my palm Beach friends, they they were pleased.

Okay. So we have another clip here where you say that he plays the victim. and he says, these girls are all ganging up against him. They've been whipped up by the lawyer, Brad Edwards. Let let's just hear this. And his description that it's all about money. I think we're just about done here. But the, again, getting back to Jane Doe went out to, You have anything to say about her motives? Just this. This is this is already in effect.

You know, the general think I can't. begin to bash. some of the personal content for that particular house, and we want to get paid, get a I don't know the technicalities. of educational medical supplies to the point, but the disclosure. that the gentleman has made sure. that we have a lot going on in that clip, we have him saying.

he doesn't want to attack the characters of the girls, but in fact, he's all right. She's back to you. Right? He's saying they just want to get paid again. He's saying it wasn't smart of him to go so close to the line. So sort of acknowledging there was a line and he went too close to it, but. he got a slap on the wrist. And then, fascinatingly, he says, no, some of these claims are as legitimate. as my Zorro winning ticket in the Oklahoma Lottery. What is he talking about? Okay, I'll.

in in the. in the, documents that I had discovered. was a report that, Jeffrey Epstein, a Jeffrey Epstein had won, a the Oklahoma lottery, and that it was, actually, I don't know whether they used him in his name, but. as you know, with his, he has his ranch in New. Mexico, Lazaro ranch.

And the winner was, associated with the Zorro ranch in New Mexico. And I believe a that the a the name Wexner. was also included in the in the story and of course, that would be Les Wexner. Yeah. Was, you know, Epstein's initial benefactor and, a victim himself. and the founder, we should say, of the limited, which included Victoria's Secret.

Yes. Correct. And so this story, I, I brought this story. to Epstein's attention and asked him, what the hell is this? You you won the Oklahoma Lottery. And he professed that this was news to him, that. he had no idea what the hell this this was about. If some if one of my staff won the lottery and didn't tell me. I'm entitled to some money. So he kind of made light of of this this report.

and used it as a comparison for how absurd these charges were against him. Because it was it was it's, specious and and. preposterous as as his lotto winner winning. But he did appear to have or someone from this or old ranch had won the lottery. Well, I never got to the bottom of that. I don't I that's something to follow up on. I mean, if people are paying more attention to the then the bizarre.

a ranch now and. by the way, not to go off on track, but I recently I, spoke to someone who had been a guest. at the Zorro Ranch and, she was she was not one of his, victims. She was sort of a social friend, but, she told the story of how. she got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.

and was trying to find her way down the hallways. and open this one door and discovered that it was a, some sort of medical. examination room that featured, gynecologist stirrups. Oh, God. How creepy. Yeah. And why do you need that there? And as as. reporting by the New York Times has revealed, he had this old,

coterie of doctors and specialists that included in, in the words. of Jeffrey Epstein and in one of his emails, a pussy doctor, who would examine, these, his victims checked out for any STDs or whatever. So I've always thought it odd that people described him as a germaphobe, which, of course, Donald Trump. has professed to be a germaphobe, and he wouldn't shake hands with people. He would do the fist bump or he would do the weird elbow thing.

And this was before Covid and then you read his medical documents. and you read about the network of doctors he had. And this fresh, constant fresh intakes of young girls from, Eastern Europe. And he was constantly getting gonorrhea. I mean, constantly getting some kind of STI, herpes or all of these things. And yet he was supposed to be a germaphobe. So bizarre. So I've asked you about about Galen. What struck you when you talk to him.

about the way he talked about young women? I think that they were really disposable. Service providers, you. know, sort of like landscapers or. I don't know, I mean. Just just how little regard he had for them. And that they were treated as his annoyances. that just wanted to be paid again.

And didn't really deserve to be. And that, you know, because of their, plot against him, you know, he's had to, to suffer. But, you know, he's. he vaguely knowledge that it was a, it was a chapter of his life. that was now behind him and that now he wanted. to, work on his philanthropy.

Okay, we have a clip about that. You say to him, well, we can hear what you say, but you set it up by saying, you know, basically, do you have any regrets in hindsight? Do you feel like you shouldn't have been, even if they came in, came to get paid attention to me? I think that was, you know, an investment. that could happen with.

additional medications for me to get my life back, which will ever be, So you're not, you're not in engaging. in any sort of massage or. Necessarily. Want to wake. up to the track? So he's trying to make a joke there when you say, you're not engaging in anything, and he goes, physical massage,

or you say physical massage, and he goes, no, most of the scientists. who come here in their 70s and 80s, they're not that attractive. Are you making a joke? He's not going to get, massage from an 80 year old scientist. And yet he's very deftly changing the subject there. Yeah, yeah. And he also goes on and in that part of the conversation, to brag about how. what a great philanthropist he is and how he's,

doing cutting edge and just uses. this phrase bleeding edge science, where he is. giving funding to, researchers that would couldn't. get it from anywhere else, and that he's, you know, like a lot of these. not to tar, too many people with the same brush, but but, this, this futuristic roller, our billionaire. visionary galaxy brain,

a self-aggrandizement that, you know, has become common in out of out of tech. You know, he just feels like he's the world's savior and only he can do it. And that somehow, I mean, as we have come to see, he saw science and philanthropy. as a way to, win. absolution and, you know, overcome the stain of of his behavior.

And I, I, believe that, you know, he hoped to recruit more Zuckerman. in this, the scheme. And I think you're a friend of the beast. Michael Wolff, wrote a piece, I mean, during the time that he had gotten to know Epstein in which he described, how Mort Zuckerman was, present at a gathering where Epstein.

was exploring the idea of a philanthropy that, would, would help them all and that, you know, using their money, but using their money and their reputations, too, because it was a sort of smokescreen. I mean, what's fascinating is that. academia. in America is set up for people to sponsor it. You know, so many academics. and so many research scientists are desperate for funding. And along comes Jeffrey Epstein and along, you know, they meet in the middle. And that's the thing.

I mean, because he undoubtedly did sponsor people. and he was able to hide behind their reputations. and use them as a sort of social battering ram. for for repairing his reputation. Right? Yeah. He, he just, you kind of, kind of, figured he would, use the respectability. of these Nobel Prize winners, these institutions like MIT and Harvard.

You know, he, bought himself a Harvard sweatshirt that he never rarely took off. And it's in all the pictures. It tells you more about him than anything else. Almost. You know, I don't know whether somebody there gave him, a sweatshirt. I think probably Larry Summers, the former president of him, sent him. probably a new sweatshirt every day, a new sweatshirt every day. So why do you think.

Mort Zuckerman was so interested in staying friends with Jeffrey Epstein. when he had read what you had written, and also would know. that there was a lot of stuff that you had researched and written. that didn't get into the paper. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that still puzzles me. Because, you know, Moore was a brilliant man, who created this fortune, and, he,

you know, also had a true intellectual side. He would appear on political talk shows and, you know, his name was floated as a potential candidate from time to time. And it really had an amazing art collection. Really, really was someone who hosted Leon Black. It should be. Yeah. Added. And so we it's. you'd think he would hope that that the what.

my story brought to his attention might have concerned him. But as these emails have shown, they, they, he continued to be friends with him. I mean, they were constantly talking about how fond they were of each other. By the way, I don't think we touched on how these emails. also revealed to me the, what was going on behind the scenes.

when I was waiting for a response from Epstein and Guillen. In the emails, Epstein says, here's a possible response. You know, that they were all hookers, or or and what's this? Whether he was waiting for more to tell him the story had died. or whatever, and Mort said, well, you know, we're working on it against much resistance. And, there was this, this back and forth. and, you know, eventually, I think Epstein thought that.

the story was, that he was I was waiting. for his exclusive about the Ponzi scheme. And then when I started making more phone calls. to other people, an email, Epstein emailed me, and, I hear George Rush is working on the story again. Like you just suddenly sort of frustrated that. it was still, coming back to life. So,

you know, a lot of these emails that have come out also, show how Mort was a being preyed upon by Epstein in that he, you know, Epstein had scored big first from Leslie Wexner. managing his millions, and then Leon Black, the hedge fund billionaire, of Apollo. And I think he, he saw Ma, Zuckerman as his next mark.

And, in later emails, you also see how it. became apparent that, Moore was experiencing memory loss. And, you know, Epstein played on this vulnerability. Like, you know, you've told me how you you're, you're doing enveloping these symptoms and, yeah, I really have to I'm concerned about your, you know, your money should be guarded. And there were. Mort has two nephews who were like sons to him,

and they were kind of his principal errors. And they were helping him manage his money. And Epstein wanted to just push them out. And the board had some of the best trust in the state. Lawyers absolutely wanted them out of the picture. And so he would couch all these, aggressive maneuvers in concern. for, his friend and,

you know, other reporting has shown how Mort, continued to, I mean, he had once signed the same birthday book that Donald Trump. signed for Epstein's 50th birthday with the nude cartoon. Mort had done some joking dedication where he, suggested that. Epstein had a hidden family in Luxembourg, which, was not true. And in a later birthday book, he he said something.

about how Epstein, should have a menu. at his next dinner where the it was would include a simple salad. and whatever would enhance, Jeffrey's sexual performance. So, you know, even years after, my story and when other things were coming to. light, Moore was still joking about his sexual performance. I mean, it's also interesting to me that I saw some emails in there.

about Jeffrey trying to offer more help getting his. then younger daughter into Trinity. And you think, why on earth would would Mort Zuckerman, who's well known, you know, billionaire businessman, right. Super connected in New York, an absolute steeple. on the kind of landscape of New York, you know, of of well-connected New York. power brokers need Jeffrey Epstein,

who wasn't even a parent at Trinity, to get him into the school. I think Epstein used any tactic he could. I mean, it had worked for him in other occasions. These emails are full of, the, you know, offers and requests. for help in gaining admission to school, to private schools, colleges, dental schools, Harvard, Harvard, you know, he and he and,

you know, Epstein delivered or tried to and that was part. of how he kept this network in play, how the the people owed him something. And if he could, if he could bring it off, then he really had his hooks in them. So, yeah, it is, it is surprising. But then again, not I mean, it also, my story aside, over the next six years,

these the, the litigation, from the other accusers. started making it into the media more and more. And there was it was would be hard for Moore to ignore that or not see it. And, you know, I think initially. he probably took it on faith that Epstein was, that it was a kind of he said, she said or something. And but more and more particularly after, you know, the Miami Herald.

series, Julie, Kate Brown, it would be hard to. to its, you know, take Epstein at his word. Did you get glimpses of the. supposed charm that Jeffrey Epstein had? I mean, it is incredible. The network he had and the people he had around his dinner table. And he was supposed to be, you know, as well as using all his connections to help people.

He was supposed to be very charming. And when he focused on you, you know, like people say about Bill Clinton, you know, you felt like you were the center of his universe. Did you feel that when he was talking to you a little bit? You know, I can even if you hear the whole recording, you get a sense of how, he could be, could be charming. I mean, he said at one point, I want you to be as skeptical as you want to be.

And, but over time, I think you'll see that what I'm saying is correct. And he he was a master. You could tell immediately you were in the hands of a master, of of schmooze and and persuasion, and that he had an assortment of tools. to try and get his way right to real you in you know. Well, and in another sort of weird aside, I just noticed that that you're.

in the tape. You say this is signed by Gerald Lefcourt. I played tennis with Jerry. We get paired occasionally in, in our tennis club, which is which is funny. He's very he's a very good strategic tennis player. So there you go. Degrees of Epstein, six degrees of Epstein. What a horrible idea. Horrible idea. I don't want to be anyway connected with Jeffrey Epstein.

He had an amazing legal team. I mean, it was. It put OJ's dream team to shame. I mean, he had, their show wits. He had, Roy Black, who had been the, attorney for General Manuel Noriega on the topic. Right. Of course. And, Kenneth Starr, that, moral arbiter of Bill Clinton's, how could the. how Ken Starr went from Clinton to Epstein tells you a lot?

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Court. I think there may have. been someone else in there, but yeah, I think he at one point was responsible. for keeping the whole Florida bar going, wasn't he? I think it's 75. I think Michael Wolff told me he had 75 lawyers at one point. I could believe it. Yeah. You didn't know who to call? No wonder he wanted a large fee for monitoring Mort Zuckerman's estate. Yeah, I need this to keep it going.

It just sometimes it feels like you'll never get to the bottom of it there. I mean, people are using. I and wired had this story. The other day about this, wonky guy who had developed. a, way of connecting. different emails and, and really. doing a matrix of the, of the network. So maybe someday. So, George, your story, you had an intense slice of the Epstein. story caught between Jeffrey Epstein and your proprietor and his friend.

And actually, it says a lot about Saul Zuckerman that he let you run the story. It does. And it's to his credit. And I, you know, not to get to too deep into the aftermath, but, this damn recording became a huge headache. because the lawyer for the the accusers, Brad Edwards, I, I told.

him about it, and he naturally wanted to hear it. I didn't I said, I can't give it to you. I, you know, was an off the record, conversation. the first thing out of Epstein's mouth was, you know, this is off the record. He didn't, you know, even hello was off the record. And and so, we the, the Daily News took the position that the, shield law, protected our this this, confidential source.

And we, you know, we're not going to surrender it. And, you know, I think Mort go bankrupt. I believe bankroll that. Sometimes I wonder if Epstein bankrolled that defense, but, he. Epstein did not want Brad Edwards to get that recording either. And so, I ended up, having to go to court, where, to our surprise, the judge said, you know, I having.

listen to this recording, I do think there is. information that, Mr. Edwards, could could help. his case and and show that Epstein has no remorse. and that he had of this, malice toward this attorney. And so, but you better turn it over in the next hearing. Or bring your pajamas.

Bring your pajamas. Meaning you two will go to jail. I would go to jail. I was bracing for that. And in the meantime, fortunately, Epstein reached a settlement with Ju Frey. And so I didn't, with that, that case died. But, Brad Edwards still wanted to tape, and he he said, I need it for my case. I get it involving Epstein. Unfortunately, again, the judge said, no, you don't. And so he we never had to,

return the tape. They turn over the tape. At one point, there's an email where Epstein asked Zuckerman to please appeal. this decision to try and prevent the tape from falling into Edwards his hands. And, so that that was a whole side story. And so I have kept that tape. Unheard for for a number of years. And then after Epstein's death, it,

and it emerged that he had given interviews. to Michael Wolff and, James B Stewart of The New York Times. And so, they were telling what was in those interviews. I figure I was, within my rights to, you know, share it with you. and the statute of limitations was over. So do you think he was murdered or do you think he actually died. by his own hand? I have go back and forth. I,

I, I do think that, you can't. underestimate the incompetence of a, prison system that, where, you know that the mic where he was staying is just like, bad was badly need of overhaul. So there's incompetence that could have allowed him to do it. But, then again, the analysis of Michael Baden, the medical examiner for, Epstein's brother is also persuasive that,

you know, there was sort of the, the nature of the, of the wounds is. unlike anything he had said, saying, you know, I don't want to get too in the weeds, and I'm not an expert on that. So my, I mean, kind of, person who thinks. the most obvious conclusion is, is true. I do think he's such a narcissist. I've seen that the thought of remaining in jail.

and enduring this trial was just beyond what he could endure. And so, quite possibly, he. he just thought this was the classic way out. Fascinating. Well, thank you for playing the tape with us. And as we said, says a lot about Mort Zuckerman. that he allowed the the piece to be published less about him, that he continued to be friendly with him, given all he knew. You know, I mean, I will say one more thing about more.

He generally was not the sort of publisher. who was always protecting his friends. And when I when I first started this job as a gossip columnists, they. someone said to me, you have two things to remember right about. It's friends. And don't write about more friends. Yeah. No. What a what a complicate. Because you were writing about all the power brokers in the city. And of course they were all people that were having dinner with them every night.

and probably saying, I can't believe you let George write that about me. Yeah. But generally, I mean, you hear many stories about Rupert Murdoch, enforcing his will on his employees, but, rarely did more Bigfoot reporters. In my experience in him, he he let things fly. That, I know he would have, borne the brunt of. But in this case, he he intervened and to an extent and,

you know, again, this story did still run, you know, and inform. Well, George, many thanks for coming in. And fascinating story, fascinating. glimpse of the master manipulator. I'm glad I could share it. Thank you Joe. Not an enviable place. to be squashed between Jeffrey Epstein. and the owner of your newspaper, Mort Zuckerman.

And I do think it's it's very telling that Mort Zuckerman. was a good enough owner to let George Rush run the story about his friend. I do still think it's weird that he stayed friendly with him. But such are the mysteries of powerful men. If you have been. Thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a comment with your favorite part of the conversation. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now.

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