The Real Story Behind Elon And Trump | The Daily Beast Podcast

I'm Joanna Coles, chief content officer of the Daily Beast, and you are either listening to watching, possibly dancing. to fencing, jousting, to the Daily Beast podcast this week. We're going to get straight into it because we are joined by your favorite. guest and mine, the obscenely bestselling Michael Wolff. And we're going to go deep into the mind of Donald Trump, our favorite place. And who knows what we will find.

So Michael, I noticed a video. of Donald Trump talking about how hot he was. And also obviously during the campaign, he remarks that he thought. he was much hotter than Kamala. What do you think? As someone who's studied him intensely for the last ten years, what do you think Donald Trump sees when he looks at himself in the mirror? Well, he sees Donald Trump. So, I mean, he. sees this creation, which I think he's,

I suppose, rightly very proud of. I mean, it is the creation of our time. the whole thing, what you see is by design, he looks that way because he thinks that's ineffective way to look. there's a moment in the Stormy Daniels book. I mean, there are several kind of key moments there. Her book on hopes, situations. Yes. You know, including when they're lying. together, he gets a phone call, and, and it's from Hillary Clinton.

memorable stop. I'm going to stop you there because I have not read Stormy Daniels, book. what is the conversation like with Hillary? It's a flattery session. All Donald Trump's conversations are flattery sessions. Right. And that's his Hillary are wonderful. We're so lucky that we have you, that kind of thing. And this was before we were running against each other. Yes. And as stormy is lying beside him, gripping. Absolutely gripping. But then but then there's this another point. And I have never heard this before.

you cannot mention Donald Trump's hair. Nobody does It's like Melania, we don't talk about that. It's so glaring and so in front of you. But, you know, don't go there. But she goes there. She says, what's with the hair and what does he say? And he said, well, you know, I once had it was really great hair. I started to get it get older. And then I started to have to color it and, I had to fashion it. so that it's still look like I had a lot of hair.

But then he said it worked. people notice this. It stands out. They look at me. Right. and it's true. And, you know, one of one of the things during the, during the campaign that, comparison between Biden who look just, just great Biden is arguably. more physically healthy than Donald Trump. He takes care of himself. Let's put aside what's going on in his head, but put aside. what's going on in the head of each of them.

Biden is probably a healthier guy, but he looks he I mean, he looks great. He looks fresh and he's washed out. You know, his hair is what's left of it is gray. The skin is gray, the suits are gray. He has cancer now, too. this was before. in Trump, I would point out, look at him. Nobody even sees him. Everybody notices me, which is absolutely true. And side by side, you know, who do you notice?

You notice the the the this guy, this appalling looking guy who is Donald Trump, and not just the relatively normal old man looking guy that Biden was. last time you were on, we talked about the then running joke, which was among his advisers. Why has Trump gone after Harvard? And the joke inside the white House that you kept being told. was because Barron got rejected? You then pointed out, in fact, Trump himself applied to Harvard.

and didn't get in, which stimulated either Stephen Trump, his spokesperson, who we also discussed, or Donald Trump himself to Truth Social. And I'm going to read the truth tweets please. You think about But this came from the president's account. And you can tell me whether or not. you thought the president wrote it or whether or not Stephen Chang wrote it. Michael Wolff, a third rate reporter, caps, who is laughed at even by. the scoundrels of the fake news, recently stated that the only reason.

I'm beating up on Harvard is because I applied there and I didn't get in. That story is totally false. All caps. I never applied to Harvard. I graduated from the Wharton School of Finance at the University of Pennsylvania. He is upset because his book about me was a total bomb all caps. Nobody wanted it because his reporting in inverted commas. and reputation is so bad. What was your response?

You know. Well, thank you was my my always response to, the world's most famous man all his attention on you? I would claim that as, as, as something special, except that that attention moves, it moves on very quickly. But it is interesting that he is supposed to be running the country. And yet this was the thing that got under his skin. Well, I would look at it in a broader context. He's supposed to be running the country, obviously, yes, but what he is also doing is running Truth Social.

So this is very important to him. It's very important because he is making money off of Truth Social. And he is the only one on Truth Social. So this is a this is a social network of one. It is entirely powered by Donald Trump. he has to fill the space. think he has to create traffic and drama. Yeah. You know, so it's and it was probably like, what what do we got? Oh, that Michael Wolff Harvard. Did you think that he wrote it or did Stephen Chang.

Right. Well, Stephen Chang probably would not. It would have been Dan Scavino or Natalie Harp. Those are the social media people. so it probably would have been a combination, Or they may have suggested, you know, there's that Michael Wolff thing. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's that's good. His book is a bomb. Say his book is a bomb, you know. And then he'll repeat bomb about 20 times. And of course, your book debuted in the New York Times. Best. Yeah, yeah. It was like, what is an obscene best. Yeah.

All right. So what is the joke going round the white House this week among his advisors? it's it's actually it's actually almost his joke. you know, and I'm not even sure people take it or reporting. it as a, as a joke so much as, as kind of like, okay, he goes around saying since he issued this announcement, trying to ban, Chinese students from American. universities, he's gone around saying, I remember a time. Don't you remember a time.

when you can go to an American college and not see any Asians? When I went to Wharton, there were no Asians. Where do they all come from? what that says, I mean, let's deconstruct that. Please deconstruct it. I think you could say he's a racist, but that seems that seems way too. obvious here. And, yeah, he's making a deeper point. And also he going back to his favorite era, right? You said on our last podcast, Roger Ailes would say to Trump's. audience were 1965 pre the voting rights.

Exactly. Yes. So I think that he lives in that world, in a lot of Americans live in that, in that world. I think it strikes him as a very profound point. Hey, what what. something happened here or what what is all this change about Asians? Where did they come from? I mean, but but you're you're right. And the way he goes, something happened. What happened, i.e. America somehow got screwed in this process. Right? this is being presented, you know, everybody is running around.

What do we do? So then this becomes a, you know, a geopolitical, political strategic point. Let's let's keep Chinese students from American universities. Let's keep them from taking our our intellectual goods. when it really is not about that. It's just about the look, you know, Trump, it's all in the look. Either either his look. or how other people look or how American college campuses look.

Where did all those Asians come from? And he wants American campuses to look like they did in Love Story, where people carried books in a leather strap. and everybody looked like Ali MacGraw and Ron Ron O'Neal. Yeah. I mean, I mean, he wants them to look like he looks. It was a you know what? What was the world like when he went to war? And and let's let's remember he went to Fordham. He went to Fordham first. I mean, that goes as an undergraduate, which is very different.

to graduating with an MBA. Yeah. You totally I mean, he went to Fordham, his Fordham, his father was was really pissed off at this. I mean, it's a terrible high school student. They had to send them to some military school. Just terrible. I mean, just a terrible student aid, etc., etc.. But his father was never less completely pissed off. Why can't you get into a better school? Why can't you get into an Ivy League school? And he couldn't, and didn't, but.

he got into, the undergraduate Wharton. division of the University of Pennsylvania is one of those things. that's always referred to as a as one of the back doors to the Ivies. Right. And slipped into an ivy eventually, but via the back door. Right. And and and it and it remains. I mean, it's a very pressing thing on his mind, the fact that people might think he's dumb, the fact that didn't. get into these other schools overshadowed by this was a terrible, terrible student.

And Steve. Bannon used to do the this kind of thing about about, you know, you know, you know, you know, Trump was, was. was the guy in class who would just, you know, five minutes in, would just get up and leave, which he did in the white House. You know, when the generals come in, give those PowerPoint presentations, he's out of the room. He can not pay attention. Michael, hold that thought. We're just going to take a break for some messages.

And we're back. Thank you to our sponsors. We're back into it with Michael Wolff Okay. So is he paying attention to Elon Musk? We're recording this on a Wednesday. Last week, Elon was given a key to who knows what the white House. And since then, he held off for a couple of days, and then he suddenly did a blitz of tweets about the big, beautiful Bill and how he thinks it's absolutely terrible. You had said in a much earlier podcast, if it came to Donald Trump.

and Elon Musk, Donald Trump would inevitably win that fight. What do you think about Elon's most recent tweets, and how do you think. Donald Trump will respond? Well, I think we should step back a minute. You know, this this, you know, Elon thing. And I think a lot of people have been certainly have taken, taken note. that Elon has been pushed out, and find that in some way, extraordinary or is untrue. He was pushed out.

Yeah, completely. nobody leaves the white House voluntarily. but the thing is, it's important this happens to everyone. There is no one around Donald Trump who benefits from the relationship? You know, it all ends tears of some kind. Humiliation, disgrace, public firings, getting fired on social media, getting indicted, going to jail. this will happen to all of these people. It just happens to Elon first because he is the, he was the most high profile, you know, and there.

is this other thing that Donald Trump does, Donald Trump is, is lazy. I mean, he really doesn't, you know, likes to play golf. He doesn't really like, like to work. So anyone who's willing to step up and do the job That's great. But have at it. and that goes on until other people start to notice. that this is the person who is really doing the job. And then not Donald Trump. And then as soon as that happens, then that person is no longer in charge. And is there relief in the white House?

I mean, we certainly reported on the fight. with Elon and Scott Bezzant. And there was some shoving going on and they were overheard sort of shouting, fuck you! We know that he got into fights with Marco Rubio. Is there relief among the more normal? Yeah, the worse things around him, of course, but but you shouldn't. mistake that as the non Elon people over here breathing a sigh of relief. And then Elon over here.

that just means that we've, eliminated the Elon fissure. and then we go on to all of the other fissures. So it's, it's not as if anyone without Elon. is going to like their lives. Well it better one of them will not come into the Elon spotlight. Right. Yeah. One person every everybody is against everybody else in Trump world. and Elon was always this special case. I mean no one quite understood what he was doing there. And no one quite understood his relationship with Trump.

And how did Trump talk to Elon when the. when the two of them were just together or or when he was, when they were actually trying to decide what to do around those were the. oh, a misunderstanding. First thing, Trump talks to everybody the same way. Okay. His audience is fundamentally undifferentiated. the firehose of Trump verbiage. just comes out in his pointed wherever, you know, it's like his his his head.

his head moves and it doesn't matter to. he doesn't alter what he says for, for, for the individual person standing in front of him. Right. So, Elon, like, like anybody else, never got a word in edgewise. And as we're recording this on a Wednesday, Donald Trump. has as yet not replied to Elon. Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC last night suggested.

that was because Donald Trump was scared of Elon. and didn't want to antagonize because Lawrence O'Donnell knows so much. about what's going on in the white House. To be fair, he was a writer on The West Wing, which is still our best version of the white House. Well, but it actually is the opposite version. of the white House that exists now. So if you if your reference is the West Wing, you can't understand the Trump White House. Do you think that Donald Trump will respond to Elan?

He's he's was creating a diversion about something else. since Elon arrived on the scene, August really. last last year, Trump has been alternatively. amused and confused by. Elon, and has gone around saying, oh, he's you know, he's crazy. You know, he's crazy. Now, now Trump can say that in, in both a positive and negative way. He's crazy or he's crazy.

And so I and I don't and I think and I think now. he's probably weighing this which crazy is it, Elon? You know, just the person he can dismiss. as crazy or crazy in a way that Elon. is trying to accomplish something by what he's saying. first would be easy for, you know, Trump can just dismiss him. the second he has to then come to terms with that.

and probably confront him, or at least publicly confront him. But I'm sure he hasn't quite decided that. Okay, so the other thing that happened in the last week. since we last spoke was the emergence of this nickname for him, Taco. Trump's always chickening out. It came from the feet. And we're being told it's what a his advisers are using, and b. what people on Wall Street are using and people are claiming it's really. getting under his skin. What's. think you both well there's two assumptions.

Assumption number one that he actually wants to accomplish something, that he actually wants to get to a world in which there are all of these tariffs. And then the second assumption is that if he doesn't, if he pulls back on these, these tariffs, that's a win for the other side. So the first assumption he hit he the, the idea that there is an end game. here never exists for Trump because he's just lurching from moment to moment.

Well, he's And also what his interest is is that there is not an end game. Then it keeps going on, the show keeps going on. So the fact that it might devolve into actual having to execute. on a plan, implement details, boring, accomplished Yes. Not not only boring and who knows what would happen. I mean Trump well you know tariffs they might be bad. But he doesn't have to deal with that if it just continues.

to roll forward as all things do. And you can go back to the first administration and remember those things. The big beautiful wall, I mean, of course, these things. were never going to be accomplished, and that was never their intent. The intent was to capture. the attention of the public overwhelm it, actually. So to exist constantly in a state of chaos is the Trump advantage. And again, everybody else looks at this as, as a cause and effect.

That's what politics is or that's what politics traditionally is. And Trump's no plan plan does not include that. It just is. We exist in the moment and it's performance, right? It's performance. And it appears to be vigorous. And at a time. when people have lost confidence in government. and think government can't get anything done, it seems as if he is. getting a lot accomplished. Yes.

Although let's just note that it's the exact opposite. Yeah, he's getting nothing accomplished. But but the appearance, the television show of it is that he is getting a lot. I mean all of that, all of what people do not see about about about government, I mean government, remember, functions in, in in 99% is things we don't see. silent is getting is an administrative function right. Government is by its nature boring.

Trump by his nature has to reverse that. I love listening to Michael's take on Donald Trump. It's different to everybody else's. And he knows this is not the West Wing of you that we saw. on NBC and dreamed of living. It's a very different place. Thank you for listening. If you have been, don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast. It's fantastically easy. It's just Daily beast.com. Please leave a comment.

We read them all and it's very helpful as we think about the questions. that we want to talk about. My love, the many threads and the internal conversations. that many of you are having with each other. Don't forget beast this week, this podcast was produced by Devin. Roger Reno and of On Earth, and it was edited by Jesse Willard.