The Real Reason Trump Talks Like an Idiot: Author | The Daily Beast Podcast

P.T. Barnum, obviously the greatest show on Earth, which made me start thinking about the language that Trump uses. Everything is maximalist, like nobody's ever seen before. The greatest. The best ever. Does he believe this? I don't think he does in the end. But I think effective salesman and con men do kind of, sort of have to believe it. in the moment, just like actors have to in their method, where I believe they're really playing this person. It's it's a similar thing.

Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Joanna Coles and I'm joined by author journalist. And I think of him as the Trump soothsayer Kurt Andersen. You may also remember him as a co-founder of spy magazine. and the long time presenter. of studio 360 on NPR. But before we jump into the show, I'm just going to ask you to share this episode with a friend. We are almost at 600,000 subscribers, which is just incredible.

And we're dying to actually hit that number. And then our bigger goal is a million. But if you want to support. independent media, please do and subscribe on our subscribe button. This is like a public radio fundraiser. It's really not. It's really not. On today's show, we're going to talk about Trump saying. that he was having negotiations with Iran and then Iran saying, yeah, no, we're not. we're going to talk about his strange lexicon. and the weird way everything is just hyperbole all the time.

And I know you have lots of thoughts on that. I thought we should also referring to the title of one of your books. I've been rereading recently, Evil Geniuses, about how the elite basically captured the economy for themselves. Is Jared Kushner an evil genius? We'll come to that. But we have a fantastic video. that really well, I use the term soothsayer. that really analyzes Trump's.

remarkable abilities and projects. In fact, what goes on to happen? What if Donald Trump were to get his own Saturday morning cartoon show? Trump. Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. He's a Trump. He is hard on Trump. Senator John McCain, he built a building even bigger. It's time for this poll finger. Let's try one finger.

Who's your dominant Trump? This guy is going to be your number one Donald. And don't forget your dude. So good. You sent me that video and I just couldn't stop laughing. Where does it come from? It comes from the first, spy magazine primetime NBC special called. How to Be Famous in 1990 that we got this literally newcomer that nobody knew. Was it, okay. Name Jerry Seinfeld to host, but NBC said, hey, this guy is good.

Anyway, he hosted, he gave he gave that introduction to it. And, it was. it was a it was a distilled, distilled version of spy magazine. And Donald Trump had from the literally the first issue of spy. being one of our regular characters. First issue was the ten. most embarrassing New Yorkers, and he was one of them. We didn't number them. So he could have been one. He could have been. I think he was one. Yeah. Who could have been more embarrassing than Donald Trump even back then.

And the great thing in that, one of the quotes we had to show what an, you know, bully, bluster. guy, he ridiculous fellow he was, as he is, was he said, you know, it was the time when we were negotiating, when Ronald Reagan was trying. to negotiate with Gorbachev a nuclear arms deal. so I could do that in an hour and a half, I could learn everything. I need to know about missiles, he said in the first issue. An hour and a half.

So there we are. And he's still firing missiles and thinks it's going to be great. Or not. Now he's firing missiles. I guess I should say. Yeah, he really is. You know, $3 million missiles. A lot of them, as we speak, in fact. And this morning he said, we are we're negotiating with Iran. and it's all going swimmingly. And then the Iranians came out and said, yeah, we're not actually negotiating at all. And then he's like, well, we're going to talk to them this week. And, I guess it's going to be on the phone because they can't really get out.

You're like, what are you talking about? You have no idea what you're talking about. He has ad libbed us into this war. Could you have could you have prophesized that? Is that the right word? Prophesized? I think it's the right word for seed. Perhaps a seed that he he would ad lib us into war, having sort of ad libbed his way into the presidency. Well, it is the next episode, and he's all about every day. is a new episode of The Donald Trump Show.

Do you know he. Because Venezuela went so well, relatively speaking. Great. And no disasters befell it. And it had been next to no military. to fight back and and nobody liked Maduro. So they gave him up and then, you know, so that went fine. So why this this is easy. Well I didn't anybody anybody ever do that I can do this too. And of course he has no clue about the Persian Empire. or the Iranian history or that they put up with eight years.

of horrific war with Iraq in the 1980s and became more entrenched. He knew nothing. So I said, oh, I'll just drop a lot of bombs. No and no. As he said, cry uncle. He's an idiot. He's always been stupid and his stupidity has been. an under remarked upon, unheralded part of his. Along with the lie, along with the mental disorders, the stupidity is important. Well, maybe it hasn't quite.

mattered as much, although it's incredible that he got elected twice. Well, it is, of course, one of the incredible things that we none of us, you know, as we used to be called. reality based people, it can, can get our heads wrong, but which is one of the reasons, not one of the reasons, actually, because I wrote this book Fantasyland before he was elected. But it was a history of of America's weakness. for being kind and kind of half enjoyment of it.

And just and because of because of the incredible religious. history of Americans, which is really part of the national character, the. I can believe what I want because it's the truth and it feels right. All that stuff, which is not uniquely American, but it is defining the American. And we like many things, America has always. been the world leader in in that, in that kind of. weak mindedness and.

slippery sense of the difference between reality and fiction. So I loved Fantasy Land when it came out. It gives such an interesting perspective on America, and frankly, whether or not. a character like Donald Trump could actually exist in another continent. I mean, whether or not he could could exist in Europe. One of the characters you talk about in the book is P.T. Barnum. And by happenstance, I was in Bridgeport over the weekend where P.T. Barnum became, man, there's a big statue to him,

which which I drove past, but but he's almost like the forefather for Donald Trump. I mean, his first freak show was 161 year old woman. Obviously not true. Who was the nurse to George Washington? Obviously not true. And yet people lined up to see this thing which they knew wasn't true. And the the sort of sophisticated nature of P.T. Barnum having the audience in on the con and yet still paying to see her.

Absolutely. And and he did that again and again and again, and he did normal entertainment, little plays. And so if you created this incredibly. successful museum in lower Manhattan called Barnum's American Museum, which had all this stuff and more, and it was just fun of any kind. And he said, and, you know, he was still in the middle of it. And he said, and it was his great. epiphany, obviously, that the good, the good nature. with which it was something like the good nature with which Americans.

except a clever humbug, a clever humbug. Yeah. It's such a good and and it's such a good analysis. And so he didn't hide it. He didn't pretend it was true. He said, how do you know it's not? Was basically his, response to people. So what you can't prove is not people enjoy it. Then that's entertainment. Right. And his understanding, which you say in the book that actually. it's attention that matters, not whether or not it's true, but the fact that you get people lining up for it.

And he was able to do and he did this with Jenny Lind, he was able to create the sense of a sensation. before you even experienced it, which is such an interesting, smart thing to do. And also what Mark Burnett one went on to do. As you've also talked about with his reality shows. And obviously he went from survivor to to The Apprentice. and gave us all Donald Trump and, and then to, making,

docu dramas, I guess you could call them the believe the docu part. about Jesus Christ, because he is the super Christian. character along with his wife, Roma Downey. And so again, they're Brits or he is. I don't know what she is exactly, but, she Canadian, some Commonwealth thing. I think you should take credit for her. But, I sense you're. distancing yourself from the two of them. Let me tell you about One Skin.

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And be sure to use Code Beast at checkout, and after you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and independent media by telling them we send you, the combination. of sanctimonious Christians and, incredibly successful huckster ism. You know, and I had him on my radio show. and he was talking about how, that well, he was talking about.

how the survivor, one of its proofs. and one of its moral lessons, he told me, was that people don't like, liars. You could be sneaky and everything, but but they don't like the contestants. who are actual liars. And if if you pretend to be something, then people will never forgive you. Which, of course, in this day and age, one thinks, well, what about you're. the man you made, the man whose career you made. You rocked that for nothing. Donald Trump in The Apprentice, of course, says him to a tee.

And I said, and he was going on and on about this. and about Donald and how great he was and wonderful. I said, well, wait a minute. I said, you're he's the most, Jesus Christ like person I can imagine. And he was and his wife were just like, that's harsh. You know, he gives money away. He's he's got this nice Scottish wife and or rather mother. And, and so it's just it, it's, it's such an American story. This combination of, of religiosity, I guess sincere and, and and this kind of Huck's truism.

And that's part of the story of, of America and how Trump came to be, even though he is irreligious and not a. nonbeliever, I think pretty clearly. But but his most devoted, supporters are evangelical Christians because, once you get a. country in which so much belief in any old thing you want. and hear and disbelief and things that are true,

anything goes. And that wasn't always the case. It was always tended to be the case in America a little bit. But then it got out of control the last 60 years and, along with the internet gave us Donald Trump. Right? And also conspiracy theories. And I want to come on to Epstein as well, because at the moment. we've got the huckster of all hucksters in the white House, and then the world is consumed by the biggest conspiracy theory. I think it's fair to say America's ever seen. I mean, maybe the, assassination of JFK comes close, but really, the Epstein conspiracy is is sort of remarkable.

But but you've been covering or I mean, you really spent some time. observing Donald Trump up close in the 80s and 90s. How has he changed? What what what change do you see, if any other than getting. Oh, he was he was he could keep, as they say, the shit in the bag better. When he was younger and he and his, his, his line was.

still playing well, everything he is today, he was that. He was a bully. He was a liar. He was a bluster. He he all of it was absolutely true. I'm the best. I'm the greatest. My mistresses I she had the best sex in the world, whatever it was, you know, was was there as soon as I was aware of him, when when my partner in spy came back from an interview. that he'd done doing a profile of Trump for GQ magazine, and just told me stories about what a what a.

what an ass this guy was that he just spent days with. and and also how short his fingers were for. And then you've termed the short fingered vulgarian right into his. into his into his epithet that we used many, many, many scores of time. Yeah. Which was very funny. So one of the things you talk about in Fantasyland, which I'd love to go into in a bit more depth, is just that sense of. what does it say about America that they do elect him twice?

And notwithstanding the catastrophic debate for Joe Biden and his, well, his very visible decline, what does it say? That we knew what we were getting and America still voted for him? Well, you know why they voted for him the first time? And why or why. a close or almost not a minority. voted for him, but he won the first time and a small majority voted for him.

Or a small. I guess, plurality. Whatever it is, whatever. However he won the second time it does, it does say a lot. And it's partly because people, Americans, I think, and not just Americans, hate. normal politicians, the normal politician who is inauthentic and hedging and. and you know, we see them every day on certainly Republicans. in Congress to an extreme of people who, you know, don't tell the truth and pretend to be people they aren't and aren't authentic. And all those things about politicians that people just hate.

This guy came along was unlike any politician ever. Right. So I'm not any person. Well, I don't know. Yes, I guess, but certainly. unlike a politician and a friend of mine in in show business. appropriately said to me early on before he got the damage, no, he's going to win. He's going to win the presidency. because people hate politicians and he's entertaining. And that's the thing. And he understood that he, his biographer Tim O'Brien,

said or Trump told him, he said when I was even a teenager, I knew I was going to go into real estate. I was going to go into real estate, but I'm going to go into show business, too. I thought about it, but I'm going to combine them. and it'll be the best of both worlds. It'll be real estate, but it will be show biz as well. It'll be politics, but it'll be show business, right? And and it didn't come out of nothing, right? I mean, he couldn't have he joked about or joked. No, he talked about teased about running for president in 1988. In 1992 96, he again and again it again.

It was a joke. And spy magazine made fun of it when back in 88, when we said he has 4% support, maybe it's time to make him making president. We said, but, you know, the time came when it was possible. And I think in his feral, brilliant way, he, he sensed that that that America had changed sufficiently, that a guy like him in reality TV age. and all the rest maybe had a shot.

And if nothing else, it would be good for the brand, right? Is what he really thought. Yeah, because I think he was surprised the first time. he actually got elected that he managed to pull it off, but it. but again, it was, it was, it was the end of an evolution. Evolution whatever it is. But you know, as soon as TV came along and Jack Kennedy was an amazing performer. right at TV in a way that Nixon wasn't in. Arguably one of the reasons we won in 1960. Ronald Reagan, a movie star, he was a real movie star and then a TV star and then and and used.

all of that to be the president. and the president and, and and, was good at that. And then Bill Clinton, in his way, playing sax and wearing, you know, talking about weights and wearing shades and saying, you know, telling MTV audience that he wore boxers, not briefs. And, you know, all this stuff about what this guy's running for president. Then I really had my epiphany. It was when I, in 1998, when he was got in trouble for.

having sex with his intern, Monica Lewinsky, in the white House. And his approval ratings went up, right? Because it was suddenly the second season, as I said in this piece, I wrote that of of the Clinton show. And now it's exciting. This is new, this is interesting. And I realize that for some years, through all those, various presidents, politics and especially. presidential politics had become kind of a,

a category of show business, because, again, and that's going back to the 19th century in America. And this is was certainly then and remains. it's not unique about America defining about America. Everything becomes show business in one way or another. You know, hospitality becomes restaurants become themed. All this stuff that we take for granted. Now, that wasn't the case. Restaurants were restaurants. They weren't, you know, Joe Blow from outer. space, you know, Chicken Barn or whatever.

And and religion too, in America. What the thing that made it different, you know, itinerant preachers out on the frontier was that. they were entertainers where there was nothing else to see or watch. And so here we are, and there was so. there's a history of Donald Trump, and there was and there was obviously this. group of people who were. willing and remain eager to be members of this.

Cool. And I mean, cults survive because they have people around them. Obviously they survive. because they have followers, but they also often survive. because they have a group of people around them. The sort of disciples, if you like, literally taking the example, from the Bible, who are the worst disciples around Trump, do you think? I mean, I mean, there are quite a lot of contenders, but if you were to to pull out the worst and the biggest enablers, who do you think they are? Well, you see,

there's disciples who are true believers. For instance, I think Marjorie Taylor Greene was a true believer. and why she's turned on them because she was a true believer. And my Messiah has has lied to me. And I'm and I've lost the faith. Now, is Steve Bannon a disciple? No, I mean, there are no I mean, we we shouldn't get bound up in the in the comparison. to Jesus Christ and his disciples. But those disciples who believed, I believe. Right.

JD Vance is not a disciple. People are. Wow. This is amazing what he's done. Look at what he's done. This is a new kind of Republican, a new kind of politician. All those things are true. And he has changed politics. But disciple, I mean the words people around him. I mean, it depends on the year and the I mean, obviously. we could all name like Stephen Miller, Stephen Miller is is kind of a disciple. I guess he comes close to being a freakish,

true believer in his version of Donald Trump. He comes close. Whereas, you know, JD Vance and Pete Hegseth and most of them are, you know, higher on the cynicism axis, I think, than the. credulous true believers. Right. And it was their opportunistic. that no one else is going to give them a cabinet job. Well, no, indeed no. And no one would have given Kristi Noem a cabinet job. No one would have given Tulsi Gabbard. No one would have given Bobby Kennedy. All of them.

Right. Bobby Kennedy, your friend who sold you coke? Half a people loves it when you came on to discuss that. And the peculiar thing where he calls you for people who didn't hear it. You. Well, you tell the story, you buy it. You just tell this all the time. It's such a good story, especially the Straub. It just give an abbreviated version of it because it's so fabulous. For those who haven't heard it, I bought cocaine one time in my life. my freshman year, right, with my freshman roommate. we went to, but we walked over to Bobby's dorm. We tried the coke.

We when he was gone, fine, getting his stash, we looked in his address book. and saw the Pope's phone number that we wrote down. And you ever call him, by the way? I think we did. I don't think we got through, but, That was several popes ago, of course, but, Anyway, so we did the coke. we bought at the gram from him, and we went away. It turns out I realized when he called me that I had taken his little straw. That's all inch of straw or half inch of straw.

Whatever it is that he gave us to sample his cocaine. And he was really pissed. And he said, come back. You took my straw man. It's full of crystals. It's full of crystals. And so, okay, I'll bring it back. And he was he was really angry, and he just, like, took it out of my hand. Fingers and slammed the door. And he wanted it because the he thought the crystals were sort of organic. and in some way healthy. Right. They were these old juices combining with the cocaine that created the crystals.

I'll leave you to that. That disgusting, recitation, but yes, indeed. Exactly. And he thought there was some scientific thing. He was growing special, you know, personal cocaine in the straw that I had just right. In fact, I hadn't added this detail on till now. I was like, oh, maybe I maybe we did, like, a crusher. So maybe he ruined his crystal farm. And so, we put, like, a spin or so we put it, like a little bit of the cocaine. It's almost a little bit of, I don't know,

mucus. I don't know what we put in it, but to, like, try. to reform the little crystal ball for it so he wouldn't be upset. Oh my God, that's what boys. Disgusting. So disgusting. Well, maybe you were the the maybe that's how the brain worm came to be. And who knows? Well, as he said recently, when he's saying he doesn't mind germs. I did cocaine off of toilet seats a lot. Well, you know, yeah, I guess, I guess he probably did. Unlike Jeffrey Epstein, who I want to come to.

in a moment, who. was a germaphobe but managed to get STDs all the time. Yeah, it was constantly, as we see from the torrent of emails getting gonorrhea. And yeah, he was a germaphobe. Well, Trump was famously a germaphobe here. And one of the reasons I didn't want to run for president is all the handshaking. Right. And yet he didn't use a condom. According to Stormy Daniels. And like this it's very strange. Men have a all I'm saying is men have a way of compartmentalizing. That's very peculiar. Anyway, P.T. Barnum obviously the greatest show on Earth,

which made me start thinking about the language that Trump uses. And he does have this sort of strange thing where everything is maximalist, everything is the best. He's the only person that knows. And I wrote it, I wrote, I wrote it, I wrote down, you write good, Johanna. I do, like nobody's ever seen before, the likes of which we've never seen the greatest, the best ever. I'm trying to give him, at least I'm giving him the benefit of an English accent.

But his adenoids all which I'm hoping is diminishing the, the value of a British accent. But this sense in which. he knows more than anybody else but. does he believe this? Do you think he believes it? This is the nature of a kind of huckster like this. Do they have to believe it in the moment when they're selling it? That that's that is the operative question with all of them. All of the great ones. Or do they have to believe that I, you know,

I don't think. I don't think. he does. In the end, I think his his deep. animating feature as a person is the most. horrible, unpleasant, miserable, wretched, cynicism about human behavior. And that there are no good people. There are just suckers kind of thing. So does he know? But I think, you know, as you say, I think I think effective salesmen.

and salespeople and con men, a more extreme version of salespeople, do kind of, sort of have to believe it in the moment, just like actors have to, you know, in their method. Why I believe they're really this playing this person. It's a it's a similar thing. But you know, I it's it's hard to know from second to second what it was. And this is to me, he gets scarier when you sense he really does like this. He really does think he can just do this.

And and. when, you know, he really like did he you know, he. famously said it was reported at the time when he lost the election in 2020. Yeah. Why? This guy beat me. He said that privately but but never admitted it publicly. And and I wonder I, it's scary to me. And it may be part of his mental decline. that he believes the stuff he believes is bullshit. More and more.

I mean, he's a bullshitter, and I mean, and just a constant one as well as a liar. And those are slightly distinct things. But I, you know, I think it's a good bet. that he believes more of it than he did, you know, in the past. Right. And also it's more acute for us, especially if you look what he's. trying to do with the Save America Act, which we're recording this on a Monday. afternoon, and it appears that it's never going to make it,

through the house. But, but just the sense in which it's come this far. that he might actually impact elections by saying, you have to turn up with an idea and it's not going to happen. And, you know, drum, it's not going to get rid of the filibuster, but nevertheless, it's sort of brinkmanship. Well, it is and his whole I mean, early on, I remember in his first term. somebody comparing him to the horrible little six year old.

who just keeps pushing his glass. closer and closer to the edge of the table, closer and closer. until one of his parents smack him or drops off or whatever he is. He's that kind of just pushing it so your father can push it. Who says, I can't do this? Who says, I can't do this? And that's and again, we he's shown us the fragility of our system, which is so based on norms rather than laws and regulations. Right. Nobody says I can't do this. And then the Supreme Court says, yeah, nobody. In fact, you can do anything. You and you can't be prosecuted. So,

you know, and, and. but dude, does he, did he really think. does he really think he's the smartest guy on earth? And, all the things, all the maximalist things he says about himself all the time. Well, you wonder and you worry. because he really thought that in days he he. he would he would have victory in Iran. And that's just, I mean, the ignorance.

and stupidity of that belief is that is that stupidity? Is it ignorance? And I conflate them. Is it or is it some kind of, you know, leaving your own headlines of that you're anointed by Jesus? Speaking of Jesus, he said, I think today, he said about the say that, voter registration Act and, and, and. the, the ice thing, which he's, he's now combined.

You have to, you know, you you have to. Right. He wants funding for Ice. So he's put them all. He's trying to make another big, beautiful bill where all these are lashed together. He said, do it for Jesus. He actually said that it which is weird for him. That's a new version. You know, I heard I heard your your great talk with, Michael Wolff. the other day about about the craziness of of his coalition, certainly. But him come out of his own mouth. That was wow.

That was a new Hegseth in, Vance in version of Christianity that. since and maybe myth maybe. he does believe more again as he gets closer to the end. He. There was a period, last year where he was talking about going to heaven. or what is he to get into heaven a lot. And repeatedly it was quoted a little for a while, a hobbyhorse of his. So who knows, maybe, you know, he sees enough pictures, online of,

you know, I created pictures of him with God and him with Jesus and him. All these things, you know, who knows where the where the line between delusion. and the con ends. There is a famous the great in my view, one of the great trials in American charlatans and a highly peculiarly. American guy was Joseph Smith, who invented Mormonism. Based on all kinds of. remarkable claims that he made.

And there's a great quote from him, though, that made me, makes you, makes me, makes one respect him, which is I'm. only slightly paraphrasing is if I didn't, if I weren't me. and I didn't see what was going on, I wouldn't believe this stuff. I'm saying either. it's just an insane. Yeah, but if he's leading the church, he's leading the Mormon, I mean, and and ran for president. Right. And amazing to me that Mitt Romney, of all people who seems like. the ultimate rationalist would be a mormon.

Well, and more I am a I'm a big fan of Mormons today, actually. I mean, they are the least bad of of the Republicans. They really are as a group. I mean, Jeff Flake, Senator Jeff Flake forced out because he was to honest. and good Mitt Romney basically forced out because he was too rationalists. And. No, exactly. They are they are they are good people. Well, then Governor Cox two, who was in, you know, who runs Utah and tried to calm everything after Charlie Kirk.

Right. And Jon Huntsman, the previous governor from Utah, a great guy, a moderate Republican, ran for president briefly. So, who could. But it's just still so hard to get your head around, a religion where someone said, where the the founder, where that where the Messiah says that. Yeah. No, I know. Well, but but it's back to what we were talking about before. Where is this true? Is it not true? Is is.

that did did it, George Washington in 165 year old former enslaved. nursemaid really go on tour with P.T. Barnum or not? Well, probably not, but I find to believe that she. She's an old woman, that's for sure. I know, and is that a sense of. of being in on the joke, on the con of wanting to be part of a cultural moment. which does, I think what Trump has created and what Barnum created to right. that you're part of something, too. It's tribal.

Well, and politics, not only were politicians. boring to people and useless, you know, grifters and liars. and hedgers and hypocrites and hypocrites, all the reasons people hate him. Also, politicians power politics was boring to most people. and they never liked it and they don't like it, and they paid no attention to it. Which is another reason Trump gets elected, because it will. Most people don't pay attention to what all this means is no, my oh my gas.

prices are high. Or oh, you know, crime's worse or better or whatever, whatever it is. So the fact that it can be this, show, this. Wow, look what he did today. What's he going to do tomorrow for, you know, ten years now, 11. Almost 11 years now? It's it's, and you think again, like, people get sick of shows after a while. Well, you know, that's one reason I think. I mean, there's the. there's the pathological thing of seeing what he can get away with.

Oh, I could do this. Can I do this? Can I do this? There's also just the, the having to, you know, jumped the shark every so often. in order to make people talk, make people watch. And if we're in season ten or season 11, just given the years he's been doing it, but also, not only do you have to jump the shark, but it's gone global, right? It's it's now global. We're at war. That might be nuclear war. I mean it's hard to it. The stakes are so high.

And of course in an entertaining an entertainment value, it doesn't matter. Except it really matters if you're going to a which is already done. disrupts the global energy supply chain, but also. antagonize a country that's got whatever it's got. However many tons of enriched uranium in the case of Iran. Yeah. And apparently, according to reporting, is in the past. with with this war effectively ended up. antagonizing his buddies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

But no, no, no. Yeah. This is not good for us. Mr.. Mr.. A reckless friend of ours, Mr.. Person who we've given a $400 million new Air Force one. Yes. Or or invested several billion. And your son in law. Right. Business. Speaking of a son in law, Jared Kushner, the great, you know, shader of both. the end to the Ukraine war, which is happened, hasn't it? And the end of the Iranian war.

He's I worked with he he bought a business. that I was co-founder of, a media business called, the Very Short List. And I wrote about that once in. He was a, he was. he's he's much, much more intelligent. and normie ish than his father in law, but he's, he's also, you know, in my experience of him as a, as a business person.

who was, who was basically, untrustworthy, you know, it's I see how he fits into that. You know, it is his family. So it's, How is he on trust? Oh, just keeps stringing you along. But these little things, this little deal that. No, I. I really want to do. And, we'll have to look into the. Oh, no, this is problem. Come up. Just, you know, an annoying, inability to close this little,

little deal, actually, for buying the this, media daily newsletter, very short list. that was owned and published by Mr. Barry Diller and the IAC company. Oh, interesting. Okay, so you're taking me back to history. I didn't know. And what happened to it? We sold it to, or IAC. Sold it to, the observer Company, and I, you know, you published it for a while.

along with the New York Observer. Put it on a business. So, interesting. So, so is Jared one of the evil geniuses? And let me stipulate that I call this book Evil Geniuses. Some of them are not geniuses at all. And certainly Donald Trump is not, nor is he an evil genius. He's he's used by the evil geniuses. And then as to come back to bite them in their various assets in various ways. But, you know, he is he he certainly is part of. Yes. In the most broad sense, I wouldn't have ever included Jared Kushner in that book.

I'm talking about the Cokes and the. and the bigger characters, and Elon Musk would be in it now 100%. You know, I Musk would be in it. And it's, it's it's the people who in the 1970s decided. we got to we got to take control of this economy. in this political economy, because it's it's getting basically. I mean, equality inequality has gotten too low. It's too fair. And basically they decide we want more, we want more.

And let's set up a counter establishment, a right wing control establishment. Listen up the Federalist Society. Let's set up all these foundations. Let's do all they did. Starting in the mid 70s, had the Heritage Foundation, all that. in order to, you know, basically hijack the economy. and then and then, oh, Ronald Reagan, this guy really. Okay. We'll try and you know, they had their their, you know, a predecessor to Trump really.

And a guy who could, mesmerize the, the rabble, if you will. And my parents and lots of people who like Ronald Reagan, who. I don't know, I never hated Ronald Reagan. He was he was he was, you know, he but he was used by. and and and had willingly been used by. because he was a genuine conservative. The evil geniuses who, who wanted lower taxes and no regulation. And that was it. And that was their obsession and still is.

And those are the people, the donor class, we now call them, and some of them are the Epstein class. Well, I was going to ask you. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein fits perfectly into evil genius, doesn't he? He does. And again, I and yes, he does indeed. And, I, I barely known about him at the time, but he was but he's a, he's a, he's an ancillary player. I mean, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a guy making tons of money. Ugly for himself. But he, he, he, he was never, for instance, very.

politically involved or. engaged and unlike the true geniuses who basically, well, probably if he'd been politically engaged, his. nefarious under world business would have come to light. Right? I think that's good. I never thought of that. But you're absolutely right. It would have been in somebody's interests to expose, right? I mean, can you imagine the opposition research if you. if you're thinking about running against Jeff. or if he's thinking about about running, but he was certainly friendly.

I mean, you think of him being friendly with Kathy Rambler, who was Obama's, chief counsel. So America's lawyer, I mean, he certainly had I mean, Peter Mandelson, who was business. minister in Britain. So he certainly had his fingers in political pots as, as, as, as, you know, in, in this system, like any system really, where, where. political power and, and. financial power are intertwined in all kinds of ways.

And he was he he was living in the largest house. in Manhattan and having Noam Chomsky, Mr.. Socialist and Woody Allen and the liberal elite over. So of course, he wasn't going to become, you know, a fierce libertarian right winger. And also back then for most, for much of his life in the 90s and aughts, politics were not what they became. They didn't become. It wasn't as entertaining and and or.

nice celebrities either, in the same way that Obama is. They became a huge variety, correct? No, absolutely. Or or the very different way in which this guy, is a celebrity. No. And and again, in a way that. and Obama is a good example. He he was still dignified and intelligent and all the wonderful things. that Barack Obama was, but he was wow. He was a star, right? And you knew that. I knew that immediately. And, and, and swooned for it, like, you know,

crazy, immediately even knowing, like, wow, I'm just I have a crush on this guy. And and but but, you know, and beautiful looking and performed well and, and or, you know, he he was he was. kind of the Jack Kennedy, right, right. It's so interesting. So, I mean, fantasyland, which I I've said, I mean, it is such an interesting book about the psyche of America.

What does the Epstein conspiracy tell us about it? And I'm very curious because, you know, you. you have great clarity in the way you write about it. And as you mentioned earlier, you're a reality based person. And yet the fun about conspiracies is that every now. and then they start, you know, they start eating themselves in from the edges. And I wondered if you'd actually changed your mind about whether.

or not Epstein had died by suicide or if he'd been murdered. I've never had a firm conviction about that. I my my. view of. basic view of, of conspiracy theories. is that there there are some conspiracies, but that it is that are true and and and unfortunately. the, the proliferation of nutty conspiracy theories. where that becomes 96% of conspiracy theories is unfortunate.

because like you, it it basically you people don't see that. No. That's a real one. And the other thing about conspiracy theories and appealing conspiracy ideas. is that they often. the good ones, the successful ones have a germ of some kind of truth. Right. They're not nuts. They're not, you know, and so, you know, whatever people I mean, and Epstein had more than a germ, obviously.

And and I've seen that is. the thing about the Epstein thing, whatever. It's however, you know, conscious. How many of those men were of the underage, pedophilic. sex trafficking ring in which they were adjacent, if not engaged? It was it was, you know, it was it was happening and happen for a long time. And it was covered up. and to various degrees of, oh, I'm just gonna look the other way, or,

so all the coded language. in emails of like, Snow White or. Yeah, I mean, weird that you, once you read them, knowing what you know about him is what she was not naughty. All that stuff. Right? Right. No, it is disgusting. Of course. But, No, you shipments have come in. I think that was one that Peter Atiyah said referred to. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

So it was it, it's real. And and again, as a, as somebody who, you know, I, I for instance, still I've read a lot. No, not as much as many people have about the Kennedy assassination. I still don't think, you know, Lyndon Johnson or the CIA killed him. I don't. but there's it's clear there was. a cover up by the CIA to to to cover their ass, and they didn't. want the world to know that they had met with Lee Harvey Oswald and all this.

There was a lot they didn't want the world to know. Right? I don't believe it was that they arranged for the assassination. The Epstein one. seems to me. And increasingly, as now, we study it, instead of just Cunanan, being that being the, proponents of it, has more, more truth in, I knew or I was willing to admit.

and I, you know, I still think it's. my problem with conspiracies to it, just from my basic. understanding of the world is it says more than three or 4. or 6 or whatever small number of people know about anything. It's really hard to keep it a secret if it's a big, awful secret, like killing the president or even. killing a guy in federal prison. Right. I know you would think I. I always think that too, that at some point. you can't possibly keep this secret that Jeffrey Epstein was killed.

And yet, the more you read about it, the more strange there all. There are just lots of unanswered questions. Well, and, you know, there are. And it's the thing about conspiracy theories, too, is I wrote fiction. Right. So it's it's it always struck me as mostly bad. Like bad fiction. Like, where are you? Right. This is not plausible. Okay, fine. It's fun and it's entertaining, but come on, that's it strikes me is they bear some resemblance, as does in a way,

the whole Christian religious theology, eschatology, history is, is is a is a magnificent, you know, the most magnificent conspiracy theory of a kind with the Antichrist. and Armageddon and, and God and his son and all, all of it. It's like. Well, and it all fits together right at all. You know, it all fits together in a, in a, two neat of a kind of way. As, as conspiracy theories tend to do for my taste,

because so much in the world, as we both know, is inexplicable and not obvious. And it looks like this connects to here because she met him and then and maybe. But now but like you're you're. the conspiracy mindedness. that leads one to see everything as meaningful. Meaningful. That's not a coincidence. That's the problem is, is, is being willing to see them when they exist.

But being skeptical until, you know, you become less skeptical as, as I, as I admit, I've become less. skeptical in the case of Jeffrey Epstein, and not just because it's bad for Trump. because of the the various. fishy facts like the, the, the prison guards, you know, like, reporting about searching for. googling Jeffrey Epstein, like five minutes before.

Exactly. And, and and days after she got ten grand, right in her bank account. The weird regular payments in her bank account, those kinds of failed. I mean, those, you know, I mean, that that's not just random. connecting this dot to that dot that that looks suspicious to me. So, yeah, I mean, and again, this is not you. I mean, God knows, you know, people in all cultures and all. nations in all places have believe all kinds of, of untrue conspiracies.

and have a weakness for that that is not uniquely American, but compared to, you know, the Netherlands or something. No, it's. Well and this one has been all consuming and it's sucked up the president to what? Kurt Anderson, it's fantastic to have you on the Daily Beast podcast. Promise me you will come back. As the Epstein conspiracy continues to unfold, we've got another 3 million papers to go, I think. Yeah. And it sounds like you. I mean, you've become a regular scholar of the thing you've read.

Well, no, I hear you talking about us, Jeffrey. I hear you talking about the emails. That's, you know, so much so between your scholar, your Epstein's scholarship. and your ability. to do a melania Trump impersonation, that makes me laugh every time I hear it. Oh, well, I really appreciate it. Thank you so, so much, Kurt. Thank you for coming to studio. Thank you. So many favorite parts of that conversation for me. I love the I love the understanding of P.T.

Barnum is the forefather for Donald Trump and his ability. to understand that actually, all that matters in the end is attention. And as long as you have someone's attention, no one else has it, and that's what you want anyway. Leave us a comment about your favorite part of the conversation. We'll be back tomorrow with Inside Trump's head, Michael Wolff, and I. will be at it again in those dark, cavernous spaces. And big thanks to Curt Anderson. And don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast podcast. And don't forget, as our first lady would have us say, beast!

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