The Melania Comparison Trump Won’t Like: Wolff | Inside Trump's Head

Donald Trump's remarkable ability to deny reality. His entire life in persona. is essentially the sham I compared this recently to his marriage. We all see the marriage. It's a terrible marriage. It doesn't exist. She doesn't live with him. She clearly disdains him. And yet there is the fiction. that he is married to one of the most beautiful women in the world. That is the game he will play about the war in Iran. The war is real.

It's the sham victory. It's not. Real. So sham marriage, sham victory. And the Iranians flicking him away in the same way that millionaires. flicking him away. Michael Gioia, it is nice to see you. I mean, I don't want to say that it is sometimes less than. Nice to see you, but, this is literally nice to see you. Since I did not,

what's today? Thursday. So. Tuesday. Tuesday. I was not able to see you, and you were not able to see me, and, we had to, hustle to overcome our technical difficulties. We had to hustle. Big shout out to Nico Hines, who is our global editor, global affairs editor, and was literally dragged by his, out of a meeting and plumped in the chair that I'm normally sitting in opposite. you and had really very little idea.

of what he was doing and rose to the occasion supremely well. I had the enormous fun of watching inside Trump's head at home. Having failed entirely to figure out. how we could upload anything to New York. Anyway, I have British Telecom coming out tomorrow, so hopefully our technical hustle will be rewarded. Anyway, it's very nice to see you, Michael. My wife was of the opinion that,

Well, as she said, you need Joanna. Which is not to say anything against Nico. because he was really fantastic. And, if surprised her. Very surprised. Anyway, I think probably we need each other. because I love your deep dives into what's going on with that scene. I cannot wait to get into your thoughts on the suicide note. We have a lot to cover, not least the war. Are we still at war? I'm very confused. Obama on call. And I am dying.

Dying to get into, future. events is podcast story time with the second lady. I mean, who even came up with that title? This week's guest is Cheryl Hines. In fact, we are going to do that on on on Tuesday. But because you weren't there. and I know you have a special feeling for that, we have saved it for you. Good. I'm so glad Nell, Chevelle and I are obsessed by this podcast, and I need to go into it with you, in detail.

And I want to get your thoughts on. on what's really behind it and the strategy behind it, because clearly that is a strategy, though it's unclear what it is. But you also talked about Rudy Giuliani, and I have a Rudy Giuliani story, which I do not want to forget to share now. And I'm I'm a connoisseur of them because who doesn't have a Rudy Giuliani. story at this point? Good point, good point. There will be no Giuliani stories in a short while.

No more Giuliani stories. Oh, dear. Well, as we say, get well. Get well soon to Rudy if he can. But I, I'm here in the UK, and it is election day here, and there is, there is a remarkable fever here around Keir Starmer, who two years into being. elected, is certainly in my living memory. about the most unpopular prime minister there could be.

And it's sort of unclear why. And that was after that was after a big a landslide. election in his favor not that long ago. Right. Two years ago, 2024, he was elected. Huge landslide victory after 14 years of conservative rule. and the insanity of Boris Johnson. And and you will remember people smuggling suitcases. in and out of number ten Downing Street, packed with bottles of alcohol.

where they were having secret parties and and most, tellingly of all, the night before. Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral, where the Queen was sat. in Saint George's Chapel, very much on her own at Windsor Castle, obeying the then Covid rules of having no one around her with a mask on. And yet Boris Johnson and his cronies were partying. And number ten, which is really in the end, I think the detail that felled the conservatives.

But Keir Starmer. has not proved to be the, the popular president. that certainly Tony Blair was when he was elected in a landslide. And what we're seeing is the knock on effect of Jeffrey Epstein. playing out in British politics, I think, which is remarkable. And do you think, do you think it's it's just that, though. I mean, this is this seems to me a discontent. that is much deeper than just one issue.

Yes. You're you're completely right. And what we're seeing is the fracturing. of what has been, for the most part, a 2 or 3 party system. So it was really the dominant conservatives, the dominant Labor Party. through the last century, with occasional pops of the Liberal Democrats. And what we've got now is the Green Party with a remarkable character. leading it, a guy called Zac Polanski, who, if you can believe it, used to be a hypnotist hypnotherapist.

He was a hypnotist. That was his qualification. Qualification for the job. I thought you were going to say he used to be a hitman. Which? Which would be more appropriate, really? No, no. But interestingly, also, just to step back a moment, there are there are several parties. So there's now the Green Party, which is led by Zach Polanski, who used to be a hypnotist, except it came out this week. that he wasn't even a properly trained hypnotist. And at one point he was hypnotizing women who wanted larger breasts.

So just just putting out there and he's got a crazy, crazy. Well, just let me ask though, though. So he was hypnotizing them to believe that they did indeed have larger breasts. No, he was hypnotizing them to grow larger breasts. So he's a very eccentric character with an extraordinary, list of policies, including making all class A drug. So cocaine, heroin, all of them completely available.

and doing deals with cartels in South America. And teaching children in kindergarten to take drugs responsibly. so that when they if they do eventually take drugs, they take them safely. So that's that's one thing. And he's also suggesting a tax, the frequent fliers. So strange as it may seem, because I would these policies you would think normally be successful.

He he's got a remarkable head of steam up. and people think he's going to win a lot of seats in the local elections. We've got. reform which is the right wing party. with Nigel Farage, who just it was just. Aligned, aligned with and aligned with our friend. Yeah. Aligned with our friend Donald Trump. He's a sort of Trump lite, if you like.

A remarkably effective communicator, remarkably effective. And people like the fact, the thing that they often say. all they used to say about Donald Trump, they say less now. Oh, he tells it like it is. He says what he thinks. I. Once sat and I just. I once sat in a room with Steve Bannon and Nigel Farage with. And Farage was, so drunk he couldn't sit on his chair. Well,

He would not be the only British politician. That's that's not, that's not being able to sit on their chair. Nor the only politician in the Trump White House. No, indeed, indeed. Yeah. Well, and we haven't even mentioned Kash Patel. Kash Patel, obviously the head of the FBI giving out bottles of bourbon. Kash Patel, burden Bourbon, his own, his own brand of bourbon. Personalized bottles. Just. But but just before before we move off, off of the Brits.

Just. Yeah. Give me and and and extrapolation on what you think. what's going on in the UK which so often either follows or leads. What's going on here. What does that mean for where we are in the US? Okay. So I do think there is the impact of, of Jeffrey Epstein, which people couldn't have seen even six months ago. This is to do with the firing of Peter Mandelson.

You will remember that Peter Mandelson, who is a, a legendary figure in British Labor Party. politics, he was involved in getting Tony Blair elected. and was known as the master of the dark arts, of sort of spin doctoring. Anyway, he was, by Keir Starmer, put into Washington. as the British ambassador to Washington on the grounds.

that he was sufficiently sophisticated and frankly. How does one put this? He was a sleaze ball. He was meant to deal with other sleaze balls. Exactly right. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you. He was put into DC, and then, of course, it became clear, though it was known he had a friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, that it was much deeper and longer than anybody had expected. When the Birthday book came out, first revealed in the Wall Street.

Journal, Rupert Murdoch's paper. It turned out that Epstein, that Peter Mandelson had sent Epstein. a very fulsome note, saying that he was his best pal. Along, of course, with with Donald Trump. Along with Donald Trump, along with Donald Trump. But it turned out that Peter Mandelson. had certainly received money, it appears, from Jeffrey Epstein and had been giving. Jeffrey Epstein information when he was the business minister.

That really, he had absolutely no business giving to him. So cut two, it turns out that. the vetting on. Peter Mandelson that was supposed to have been done by the Foreign Office. and the various security services in Britain, really was very ineffective. And it looked like he failed the vetting but was given the job anyway. Cut to Keir Starmer firing a series of people, including.

a very popular, Foreign Office, puppet, civil servant, public civil servant. And it makes, it makes Starmer look weak. And there have been internal labor. enemies working very clearly against him. So you mentioned Nigel Farage, falling off a chair. He was so drunk. It was then revealed that Angela Rayner, who is a possible replacement for Keir Starmer,

was spotted in the strangest bar at the House of Commons. so drunk that she walked into a door. and was the phrase in used in the Daily. Mail was absolutely trolled. It's a wonderful quote, tabloid phrase. Just absolutely troll it. So. it's it's a strange bunch of characters. I have a question. What do you what effect do you think that Keir Starmer's.

sucking up and toady ism to Donald. Trump has had on his reputation in the UK? It's a very good question. And let's, let's let's be clear of all the European leaders. and all of the European leaders have been confused about how to deal. with Donald Trump, but Keir Starmer has been the most forward. in deciding that that the way to deal.

with Donald Trump is just through flattery and through agreement. and through willing to be, you know, a doormat. Well, up until the war. And then he refused to join America and Israel in bombing Iran, which I'm assuming he thought was a popular policy, because, of course, one of the elements that brought down Tony Blair was his support for George Bush. and the Iraq war and the jumped up, sex up dossier.

So I think Keir Starmer has. tried to have it both ways with the American and with the Americans. Yes, it has that de late and dollar short field. Yeah it really does it. It really does. So in terms of Trump. witheringly leaning forward in. Let's segue from there into the war, because how can you not. it is the central event of the moment.

Sure. And I don't want to get stuck in British politics other than when Donald. Trump leant forward and said about Keir Starmer he is no Winston Churchill. It was a strangely effective line for people because everybody what it is, no Winston Churchill and unfortunately his charisma minus. and I think it's also it's a lot to do with price is actually. in the fact that people feel energy bills are completely out of control, so goes back to the affordability issue in the US.

But let's get on to the war because it's very confusing from here. Sitting here with a prism of of British news to understand are we still at war? What's happened? Is it terminated? Is it not terminated? Who's got control? B well, before having urged us to move on to the war, let me just stop a second and say, and say I you know, I think that that's important. to remember that part of Keir Starmer, Starmer's problem and maybe. the overwhelming part of Keir Starmer's problem is the economy.

And that may well be the overwhelming part. of Donald Trump's problem in addition to the war. So let's do the war, okay? So let's do the war. Who's in control of the Strait of Hormuz? Michael, we're recording this on Thursday morning. We should say it was all being well. We'll broadcast Thursday night as we're recording. Who has control? Well, I think most importantly, Donald Trump does not have control.

So, I mean, he's pronounced, okay, his, his his position. as of two days ago was the war is over. We won. So that that that begs the questions. Is it? Did we. And the answer is no. The war is not over. And no, we didn't win it. Now that that's interesting, because then. Then. Yes. Yesterday. Marco Rubio basically came out and seemed in a somewhat.

good mood about this and said, the war is over. We won it. And then Donald Trump almost immediately right on the heels of that. press conference, said, no, we might go back to war. And, and with the clear implication that we hadn't won it. and we were going to go, and we still had to win it and. we might win it again, or we would win it again, but we haven't yet.

So, you know, it's interesting. the The times, the New York Times story and, you know, I'm, I'm partial to kicking the New York Times, as often as possible. Referred to this, referred to Trump. They said Trump. Trump who, who cultivates an erratic style. Who cultivates an erratic style. He is erratic. Exactly.

And that goes to the to the entire problem, to the Times's problem, and to understanding what's going on in the white House. He doesn't cultivate an erratic style. He is erratic. He's erratic by temperament, by nature, and and by what? Whatever, whatever mental processes, are in fact going on in Trump's head. He, he's he, he from from minute to minute, he changes, not as a matter of style,

not as a matter of strategy, but because, because he, he, he both loses focus and because he is ruled. by what comes into his head at any given moment. So, again, the New York Times setting that up as though. as though this is by design, as though he knows what he's doing, as though this is part of grand strategy. and that is completely it could not be more wrong.

It could not be more misleading. by the premiere journalism. organization in the United States of America. Let's put, you know, let's push The New York Times to one side. You've written four books on Trump. Have you ever seen Donald Trump. in such a tight spot as he is now? Because it's one thing to make up policy in America.

Swinging his legs from the chair behind the Resolute Desk. It's another to make up a policy. that has caused energy shock across the world. He's about to go to China. He goes to China next week, and yet he appears to be completely. in a self blockade. Never mind the blockade in the Strait of Hormuz. I appreciate your, your position on this, but the answer would be the opposite.

Yes, I've seen him many times. I mean, I've seen him in the middle of the Russian, the Russian investigation in the middle when he fired, when he fired Comey, and everything seemed to be coming down on his head. I've seen him in the middle of Covid when he absolutely had no idea what to do. And I've seen him in the middle of deciding that he had, or believing that, that the election had been stolen from him. I mean, the truth is that Donald Trump,

Donald Trump's entire certainly political career. and maybe longer career has been, a a series of these predicaments, many of his own making, that he appeared. not to be able to deal with, cope with, or get out of. Now the curious thing is that. is that he has so often, in fact, gotten out of them. So how does he get out of this then?

I don't know. Does he can't just call it a day and say it's over? I don't know, I mean, right now he is he he is clearly trying to do that. He is trying to call it a day. We we won. The war is over and we won. Although, I mean, that was earlier this week. Then he reversed that. But then he will go back to that, erratically. And that is really his only, the only thing he can actually do.

is that that, I mean, he's going to be in a situation. The situation is going to be we've bombed. We've bombed Iran to our utmost maximum capacity. And nevertheless, the regime, the Iranian regime remains in place. Its nuclear capability is. has not been, altered at all. And they control base have basic control.

over the Strait of Hormuz, a choke point in the world wide economy. That's not going to change. That is going to be the result. Whatever happens now. So how does he, how does how does he. not not fall on his sword and say, I failed? And, you know, and the answer is, is that it is as it has always been in everything that he does. Is this remarkable ability, this rhetoric.

and the and will to deny reality. And, and he has done that better than anybody else in so many situations. His entire life in persona is essentially. that I am the world's greatest businessman, where, where every piece of evidence suggests absolutely the opposite of that. He's a he's a he's a bankrupt.

I and, you know, I, I compared this recently to his marriage, you know, the marriage, we all see the marriage. It's a terrible marriage. It doesn't exist. It's it's, She doesn't she doesn't live with him. She clearly disdains him. And she only shows up for him by special arrangement. And yet there is the fiction that he is married to. A one of the most beautiful women in the world. So I don't know that that's what that's.

That is the game he will play about the war in, in Iran that we blew them up. We obliterated them. We we have, we conquered them. They're nothing where everything. We've discussed this before, but there was something irresistible. about watching her just flick his hands away. And now she seems to be wearing gloves more often in public, which I suspect means she doesn't really want to touch him. And the Iranians are just sort of flicking him away at some, in, in, in some way.

So, I, I think this, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going to go with this metaphor. Okay. So the similarity between the sham war and the sham marriage, what are we hearing about his trip to China next week? I mean, this. Is it's not the sham war. And just let me let me let me point this. The war is real. It's the peace. It's the sham. Yes. Sorry. I meant his. Discord. The sham, the sham, the sham victory is a sham.

Victory is, I think, what we're talking about. Yes. So sham marriage, sham victory. And the Iranians. flicking him away in the same way that Melania is flicking him away. Can we get on to his trip to China? How do we think that will go? What is the point of it for him? We know that Iran is supplying a lot of oil to China. A lot of it's not being able to get there. We're expecting a huge parades.

and the Chinese to put on a great show for Trump. What does Trump want out of this? I think you've answered your question. It's just distraction at this point. I mean, he doesn't have he's not going to do, you know, the relationship with China was supposed to be fundamental, both in the first Trump administration, in the second Trump administration, China was was our primary antagonist in the world. China was responsible for much of the economic hardship.

of a significant part of of of the, of the US and of the and of the US. That was, that was, the, the. essentially the manufacturing base of the U.S. and that was that was what we were taking on. Now, the result of two administrations with the Biden administration. in between has been that China has only, solidified its position.

and its power and its potential in the world. So Trump is going to show up in, in China and, and not take on any of that and just receive that. And the Chinese are going to, I suppose they very clearly understand, that their position is a solid one. and all they have to do is deliver Trump a parade.

Well, all they have to do is deliver Trump a parade. Well, let's talk to your earlier point about him. just making things up and still believing that. he's the only one that matters about what's happened in Indiana. Because in December, we talked about, state representatives in Indiana refusing. to vote for, redistricting in Indiana, even though it looks like it was going to. come up with more Republican candidates, or more Republicans safe seats.

And this week, Donald Trump's candidates. have opposed those who were opposing the redistricting. and said, five out of seven of them have won, which is actually a remarkable evidence. of still his power or is it. You know, I mean, it's it's yeah. No, it's. I mean, I think it's curious is it's it's one of those things that always happens,

Trump wins and and obviously he has won. repeatedly over the last decade. And yet everybody or at least at least the liberal press. ecosystem is. it, it it stands there completely bewildered. How could this happen? How could people vote for Donald Trump? Which is a completely fair question, but it seems to continue to.

to ignore the reality that that is the reality. that, that an enormous number of people. in the United States of America are absolutely loyal to Donald Trump. Why? Well, we still can't answer, at least if we're essentially liberal people. We still can't answer that question. What happened? What what, what's what's separated these people? You know, what drew a line in, in this country?

And and I'm not going to try to answer that question now. because literally, that is the question that can't be answered. But it is worth acknowledging. It is important to acknowledge that that line is still there, that, from the the point of view of this side of the line, people have have drunk the Kool-Aid and continue to drink the Kool-Aid. on their side of the line. Of course, they don't feel it's the Kool-Aid.

They feel we have drunk the Kool-Aid. But, but having said that, and and it and it does. As you know, I think a lot of people are at the point of sync, of thinking, of thinking this Trump thing is coming apart. We're looking at the midterms and the likelihood. that he is going to be wiped out. So what does this say about that?

And I mean, I think it says two things. The one is a cautionary tale saying, remember, you, you know, Trump is is if we are inside Trump's. head, Trump is inside a lot of people's heads. And he's there in a, in a, in a kind of in a positive way. I mean, he has he owns a lot of people. So always keep that in mind. At the same time, this is, this is Indiana.

These are local elections. The turnout is very low, very sparse. He has, his support. He in, he injected enormous amount of money into these races. to support to support the people that he wanted to support. He gave them enormous attention and enormous publicity in local races. So what happened there on a structural basis, should is, is pretty easy to explain in, in, in standard politics,

any president could have moved. these, these local elections. And so it's almost another element. that we ought to look at here, which is his draw capacity for commitment. to and drive for revenge, because that's what happened here.

He disproportionately just just. for his own, for his own ego, for his own, for his own needs to be proved correct for his. this weird need that he has to, to bring people to their knees. That's what was going on in, in Indiana. And that's what's going on on a broader, much broader scale. And I,

I think most of the evidence would indicate. that it is incredibly unpopular, that it is redound in to, to his negatives, which are, you know, now at 37 or, you know, in that in the, in the high 30s, I mean, incredibly, in, in, in incredible danger territory. So that I think is the thing if I had to look at this and say, what? What is the takeaway here? It is that need for revenge.

And we're seeing that on, on, on his you know, this the indictment last week of. of of James Comey. on, on a completely specious charge, I mean, almost an absurd. and ridiculous charge, a charge that will not stand. And and again, we've also we've. we've seen this actually, his revenge appears to have succeeded in Indiana,

but his revenge through the through the law and through the courts. has been a spectacular failure. Right. It is one of those other things that just says this, this kind of neon. sign above, above his head, which is both that he is, he's disturbed in some way. that his fixation on this is a disturbance. And also, it's a failure. He is a failure. He's I mean, there's a there's a certain.

kind of kind of a pathos plus absurdity. in his, in his, in his continual. quest to prove himself in ways. that is just going to make him look ridiculous. Well, and I think that it's revenge on people who've humiliated him. And I remember at the time, and I think we perhaps even ran a tape of it in. the podcast, was the local Republicans who said, we don't like Donald Trump.

We don't like the way he speaks to us. We don't like the fact that he's uncouth and that he's not polite. And we've had enough. And it looked like. and it was certainly being celebrated as a victory for, for normal Republicans. But clearly, clearly, he is so motivated by revenge. when someone has humiliated him, which is obviously what. James Comey did and what Tish James did. And, and it's remarkable his powers to, as you say, get inside people's head.

And I was thinking when you were talking on Tuesday about Rudy Giuliani, I wanted to share it took me back to a story I wanted to share. When I was at Marie Claire. I just arrived there as the editor, and it's slightly tied in a little bit. with The Devil Wears Prada, which came out the month I joined, Marie Claire as editor in chief. But one of the things I wanted to do, we had the theme of American fashion. And so we decided that we would shoot for politicians. in American fashion, and we shot Hillary Clinton, John McCain,

Barack Obama, and Rudy Giuliani because Rudy at the time. was looking to be the leader of the Republicans and run for president. And the others were all pretty fairly straightforward, actually. John McCain was very humble, just wanted to be shot eating a sandwich. after for Bratton, back somewhere on a on a bench outside the capital. Hillary Clinton was very sort of efficient. Barack Obama, at that point, a senator from Illinois, was incredibly sort of generous and fun and sort of bouncy.

And actually, in the middle of the interview, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. suddenly arrived in his office, and he was very excited by that. And happily, we had a photographer so we could capture it all. But Rudy Giuliani, who who I had frankly admired when he was mayor of New York, and I'd covered him a little bit when I was the bureau chief. for the Guardian and had followed him around. I'd had a couple of days following him around, and he was certainly very busy, as people like to say. There was no pothole.

He didn't like to go to the opening of, He insisted. on being shot with a helicopter in the background. So we went off to the west side helicopter pad. And you referred to him. having, I mean, he had a series of relationships. and marriages, but you refer to one being particularly unfortunate. And at the time he was married to someone called Judith Nathan, who he also wanted in the shot. So it was clearly setting himself up as president and first lady.

And she we put her in a Carolina Herrera sample dress, which you often use for for shoots, and it hadn't yet gone into production. And at the end of it, she said she wanted to keep the dress. And we said, well, we can get you the dress, but you can't keep this dress. It's a sample. They need it back. And she said, I don't think you understand. I want this dress. It was a beautiful brown dress with polka dots. And the fashion editor and Judith nice, and basically got into a kind of,

as far as I remember, tug of war. And I can't remember what happened to the dress, but the photo was fantastic and made him look super powerful. And then he went and blew it all and. tragically sold his soul to Donald Trump. What a what an incredible lesson. No, no. An incredible story and a story most of all about what happens. I mean, Rudy Giuliani is the ultimate cautionary tale. of what happens when you get involved with Donald Trump.

One of the reasons, and in 2016, when Rudy dived all in for Donald Trump. and Rudy had never, when he was mayor, certainly considered Donald Trump a kind of clownish guy. You know, the the, I mean, Rudy Giuliani was the important person, not Donald Trump, but he when he in 2016, when he went literally all in. for Donald Trump, I asked Roger Ailes, I said, I said, you know what?

What really, this is this is a little undignified. Why is Roger Ailes the head of Fox News? And I said, and a friend of Rudy's, a friend of Donald Trump's. I said, why is Rudy going, you know, doing this? Why is he going, going all in really, really risking his, his reputation. And then and then he said, and he said, well, if you were, if you were married to. Judy, you'd have to get out of the house to any excuse.

Oh, dear. Well, I don't know what's happened to Judy Nathan, but, but what an extraordinary ride. And and it's amazing to think that he was a senior prosecutor, that he led really powerful prosecutions against the Mafia. and changed the future of the Mafia in New York. And, and he ended up really. a figure of, of great mockery and foolishness. Anyway, you know, a tragic, tragic figure, a bankrupt figure, you know, a figure without a with a his reputation destroyed.

And then in the end, Trump sort of gave gave him the, the heave ho to, you know. Again, Shakespearean in its in its scope, really. And, you know, I wonder if Cheryl Hines. will also, I wonder if Cheryl Hines and actually JD. Vance will live to regret their connection with Donald Trump, too.

And it. I cannot tell you how remarkable I find story Time. with the Second Lady, which is a podcast they have set up Uche Vance with. I cannot believe that this is Uche Vance's idea. I mean, he was an unbelievably powerful. lawyer, someone who had studied law at Yale. She was a Gates scholar at Cambridge, and here she is reading children's books, looking as uncomfortable as I can think.

I've seen anybody look, except that this week's episode. with Cheryl Hines as her guest, who reads The Three Little Pigs. The two of them look incredibly uncomfortable, and I've no sense of. whether or not this was an initiative that was suggested to them. If they were told, we need to get Usha out there, let's have a reading to children. That's all women are fit to do. But it is the most bizarre thing. And. And who is this fool?

I come is that any child is sitting watching this podcast. It's remarkable. It seems full of subversive messages, about libraries and how important libraries are. And then the catch phrase of this, of. this podcast is when we read, we grow. and it sounds when she says it, it sounds like a threat. Anyway, I think we have a clip from it, which I'm excited to share. Hello, I'm Usha Dance and welcome back to storytime with the Second Lady.

I'm so glad you're here today to read another fun book. because when we read, We grow. Today's special reader is no stranger to storytelling. Cheryl Hines is an actress who's been in many movies and TV shows. Hi. Hi, Cheryl. Hi. Thanks so much for being here today. Well, I'm so happy to be here. This is fun. You know, I've always loved watching you on TV. You're so funny. And I wondered, did you always want to be an actress? I did. Isn't that funny? Since I was a little kid.

I mean, God. Oh, my God, I. Know. I mean, have you seen anything more painful, more cringe worthy? More. Get me out of here than this. Well, and also, anything less fun, she goes. It's fun. And then Cheryl's like. Yes. I've always wanted to be an actress. Isn't that funny? Not really. No, none of this is fun or funny. It's excruciating. And just to point out which we which we haven't that, that that, that.

Cheryl Hines is the wife of of Robert, Robert Kennedy junior still junior at 72. It's just crazy that they would make them do this. I mean, it's just insane. Cool. You should file. Cheryl Hines is already in this court. In this predicament of being married to this, to this. to this guy who is, among other things, we know all about his, his affairs along the way.

Including while he's married to, to her, not to mention his preposterous positions. on so many, you know, life and death issues. That's what she has to swallow. That's what she's now forced to forced to, a forced to support. Forced to identify with. And now, to make matters worse, we're now putting her in a, in a, in a podcast.

in which she's on display as a, you know, as someone with a gun to her head, basically. I mean, she clearly doesn't want to be there. She clearly shouldn't be there if she's clearly, among other things, by any indication of this, a terrible actress. She can't even she can't even play the part. of of the politician's wife. Draw a called upon to to do some,

you know, some, to be nice to children. Okay. Let's, so we just going to play my next favorite clip of it. So just to set it up for people, in case I haven't Ushe invites someone to come on. and read from one of their favorite children's books. So you brought a book for us today? I did, I brought The Three Little Pigs. and, I love this book when I was growing up. Well, for one thing, I like pigs.

They're cute. I like pigs, they're cute. I mean, and also. Let me just. I gotta point out, The Three Little Pigs is not a book. You know, it's a it's a, you know, it's a. it's a nursery tale, you know, of which there are many versions and really exist in many books. This is not a book. But it's so, so diminishing. Its so diminishing of of use.

Vance, you know, highly intelligent parents with Democrats. It makes no sense that they would use her like this. And I'm wondering who's come up with this strategy. Is this one of Jade's ideas? Is she now doing storytime because he's got a book coming out? I mean, what what is the point of this? And also it's got nobody following it. When I, when I last looked as it had fewer than 700 people.

had had read it. It's I mean, if you're going to launch something like this, at least. give it some oxygen, at least give it, you know, the wings of potential success, but it's as if they've just buried it in the corner of YouTube. And we happened to stumble across it. Well, you know, one of the one of the ways that these things happen, you know, in any political organization and the white House. is a political organization and, and, and Vance has his own organization.

There's a lot of things that we need ideas, ideas. What are the ideas? Ideas, actually, any political organization. is a fountain of terrible ideas. And, and I suspect this was this became. somebody's idea in somebody because she doesn't want to do this. Usher probably doesn't want to do this. And there's a long list of things she doesn't want to do. And then suddenly, while this seems harmless, you know, we'll read kid books to books to kids, and then it.

And then they they they produced it. And everybody inside looked at this and said, this is terrible. Let's bury this. That's my analysis of what happened here. Well, I can't wait to read Uche Vance's memoir. and to read about this particular section. And if it even gets a couple of lines in it because, because she could be doing all sorts of things. She could be going out and talking to military wives, which is often what,

what the second. lady and the first lady do together. Well. As I said, I'm sure that those, those options are being presented to her. on a daily basis, and she's not doing them because she's decided not to do them. And and probably I would read this. She has refused so many things that she had to agree to something. And this is what she agreed to. And it's, Well, you see what it is.

Well, we did a quick, search of what we think Cheryl Hines was wearing, and she was wearing a $1,200 dress and a $995 pair of Jimmy Choo shoes. I think, I cannot imagine a child. sitting still to listen to Cheryl read that, Remarkable. Remarkable. What we end up doing to political wives. Let's make a little book on on, whether that marriage lasts how long.

Cheryl and RFK junior, still junior at 72. Well, I don't want to be in the guest. I don't want to be in the game of hoping marriages fall apart. But I think it probably doesn't have long for this world. This is just just being realistic. A couple of years, a year. I think he gets out of this. Leaves the administration and the,

the marriage breaks up, and then and then he runs, sets up his campaign for 2028. I mean, he's got to get rid of probably will get rid of the marriage, get extricate himself from that because you don't want. that to blow up during the campaign itself. My interesting best political judgment. Interesting. And we know that he's already set himself up with a podcast. I think it's questions with the secretary is where he challenges government lies.

without realizing he is currently the government. So. Oh, Michael, Michael, Michael Michael. Joanna. Jones made it this far with only a few technical difficulties. We've had to stop a couple of times for me to throw overboard. some data that I've no idea if I'll ever need in a future life, but whatever. It's been deleted now. And I look forward to seeing you on Saturday. And and meanwhile, British Telecom will have come to rescue you.

Well, I hope British Telecom will have come to rescue me. And I just wanted to thank everybody who's written to me. I've had lots of emails, hundreds and, well, thousands at this point of comments. on YouTube. Many, many thanks for all your good wishes. And, to everybody out there, also going through something like. this is particularly painful and acute, the ailing of a parent. And, some of your stories have been really harrowing, and I really.

appreciate you taking time to write to me amid your own, your own suffering. Anyway, Michael, it is good to see you and you. And thanks to our team, as always, particularly in this, managing to get all of this, managing to, broadcast from Yorkshire. So the good news is we have so many BBC. team members now, there are too many names to read out.

And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, Rachel Parsa, Heather Pizarro, Neil Rosenhaus.