The Man Who Coined The Insult Trump Hates Most

Welcome, I'm Joanna Cole, Chief Content Officer of The Daily Beast, coming to you with The Daily Beast podcast. If you're a longtime fan of the pod, welcome to our new feed. If you're a new abnormal listener, stick around. We're bringing you more of the people, the politics, and the pop culture coverage you need. every Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday. Enjoy today's episode, it is a wild one. Spoiler alert, they're always wild ones. And of course, joining me today is my co-host,

Samantha Bee. Yes, hello, how are you? Okay, aren't you a Chief Content Officer too? Well, you were supposed to ask me, according to our script in front of us, you're supposed to say, what are you the Chief? As usual, I've already veered off the script, it's gonna be difficult, we're off piece, and we've got a strange man sitting between us too, which is very odd. But just tell me what you are, I'm Chief Content Officer of, and then we can introduce our strange guest. Well, Joanna, just because you asked, this week I'm the Chief Content Officer.

of Hand Done Cratch embroidery at the Met Gala. My work is meticulous, I will do a high kick. and show you later. I want to know all about it. You are referring, I think, to Lisa's underpants. with Rosa Parks stitched carefully into, That's right, into the crease. Well, once I do my high kick, you'll be pleased to know that you'll find RGB, just emblazoned across my perineum.

Enjoy. RGB or RBG? This is going great. So far I feel really good. Our beast of the week is the magnificent Kurt Anderson. Kurt is what the British would call a man of letters. He's a journalist, he's a novelist, he's a historian, he's a radio interviewer. He writes funny books, he writes serious books, including Fantasyland, how America went he-wa. and evil geniuses.

Together these books chart what Kurt calls. the history of the fuckinging of America. And perhaps these days Kurt is best known. for his co-founding of Spy Magazine in the mid-80s, where he coined the term short-fingered vulgarian. for our current president. Like Cassandra, Kurt and his co-founder. of Spy Magazine, Graydon Carter, tried to warn the people. Unlike the Trojans, the people did not listen.

Good idea. Kurt Anderson is with us today. and he is already so confused about why we are, (laughing). about why we are approved to be on air at all. Yup. Who said yes to this? Hi, welcome. Welcome Kurt Anderson. A pleasure to be here. Well, it is a pleasure to talk to you in person. It's been a long time since we had an in-person conversation. It was 15 years. Pre-Trump. Pre-Trump, wow. We've all learned so much.

Really? We've all aged wonderfully. But was there ever a pre-Trump? 'Cause actually the one thing about Trump. is he's dominated the media for the last 40 years, whatever the medium was. And Kurt, I feel like one of the reasons. we were so excited to talk to you and there are many, you coined the term short-fingered vulgarian. about Trump when you were at Spy. And really you sort of foreshadowed what was to come. So it might be your fault. Short-fingered vulgarian was coined collectively.

by Graydon Carter, my co-founder, and I and God knows who else in our staff at the time. And he was the first person having done a profile. of Donald Trump before any of us ever knew. who Trump was in 1983. We were just starting to talk about Spy. He said he has a couple lengths the size of half dollars, which he used as a signifier of being from Queens. But he said he had small hands. And so when we began inventing an epithet for him,

as we did for frequent recurring people in Spy, like maybe my favorite, even though it doesn't have the legacy. of short-fingered vulgarian, was our one for Henry Kissinger, which whom we always called, every time we refer to him in the magazine, socialite war criminal Henry Kissinger. (laughing). - That's great. - And I just love that. - The juxtaposition of it. - Exactly. - Yeah, socialite war criminal. - You know, whatever they were, five, six syllable, like Homeric epithets. And so Trump, we called for a while.

Queens born casino operator thinking he'll hate that. But then we came up finally with short-fingered vulgarian. and it stuck and you know. - And the rest is history. - We came in the 10th line of my obituary. So we did invent this and it stuck. and it outlasted the magazine and everything else. But moreover, we were, one reason we invented this epithet, this phrase, is because he was a great recurring figure.

if you're starting a satirical magazine. in New York City in 1986. Like, oh my God, he was in the first issue. You know, the first cover story, the first issue. was jerks, the 10 most embarrassing New Yorkers. (laughing). - And he was there. - He was there. - And again, I go back and look at how we quoted him. and what we said about him. It's just he is the same creature. - Yes, I mean, well, he does want to bring back Alcatraz. Like we are, and he has not emotionally aged. since the 1980s.

So this is very, it's very unbranded for us. to be talking about him circa 1980. - You know, he is an artifact of that time. - I would say that growing up in Canada, as I did growing up in Toronto, I read, I religiously read Spy Magazine. And I think that my opinion of Donald Trump. was formed through your vision of him, if that makes any sense, because I've always known, like why would a teenager in Toronto. know anything about a Donald Trump? I mean, the fact is, yeah. - And not just about Canadians, about other people.

- Yes. - I grew up in Nebraska, the Canada of America, - Of course. - And no many people, especially your age, slightly younger than I am, we are, say like, you know, just exactly that kind of thing. That's how I know about my COVID. That's how I know about Donald Trump. That's how I know about Elaine's, whatever it is. - Well, yes, it was very, it taught me a lot. about New York society, New York culture, that I really had no right to know about. Spy Magazine and Gourmet Magazine,

my two touch points. - And it talks about them in a non-reverent way, which was the first time. 'Cause otherwise these people have been sort of, people were worshipful of them, and you sort of pulled the curtain back. And I remember reading the first copy of Spy. when I was working at the Daily Telegraph in London, and I actually wrote a piece about it. And I can remember my first line, which was, "Britney's coming under attack. from across the Atlantic again.". And there was a piece in it about why you shouldn't. have British people to stay, because they would arrive,

and they'd say, "Oh, I've forgotten my toothbrush.". And then you as a host would say, "Well, there's a CVS on the corner.". And they go, "No, no, I'm only here for two weeks, it's fine.". - Which was such a good description of British people. - Yeah, well, I was having a Canadian co-founder. who was half, you know, an anglophilic Canadian co-founder. - Right. - We were attuned to Britishness, and I remember, yes, that piece had the word "freeloaders" in it. - Yeah, totally, it was such a good piece. And it was called "Enormous Sturman Drang" in London,

I remember at the time, and of course, you can read all about this in Graydon Carter's memoir, which came out about a month ago. I'm halfway through and really enjoying. And the stuff about spy is great. But when you look at Donald Trump now, is it an inevitability of what happened? Is it the mashup of celebrity culture, or what is it that sort of got him there. that you somehow managed to skewer back in the 80s? - Well, in addition to investigating his imminent bankruptcy, and as you say, reporting on him, not like,

"Wow, look at him, he's great, he's wonderful, look, he's built these buildings.". We did what journalists we thought were supposed to do, which is to be adversarial, and look at the, and talk about him, and people like him in general, in the way that the young journalists we were. and hung out with would at the bar. Like, say these things like, "Why can't that go in the paper? Why can't that go in the mouth?". And just sit, you know, fact check it,

and make it rigorous, and do journalism. in a funny, pseudo-British way. about these bad guys like Donald Trump, and he was such a, he was all the things he is now, a bully, a braggart, a liar, you know. - Show-off. - All that, you know. And that was something new in America, and something new about him, was also a moment when tabloid journalism, certainly at large in America,

but specifically in New York, with the Daily News, and New York Post was a thing for the first time. in the '70s and '80s, so that was new, and that was a perfect timing for him. to be able to call up the New York Post, and they'll use it and say, "There you go, this.". My wife said, "There's a best, or my girlfriend, best sex she's ever had,". or whatever you wanted it to do to get in the papers. And, you know. - And of course he used to ring up. with stories about himself. - Yes, well, and he did that, and pretended to be somebody else, but he just talked to people as Donald Trump.

to play stories. He would call Page Six the gossip column for all the time. And so his accessibility helped, his shamelessness, "I'll do anything,". and the fact that like P.T. Barnum, is a great predecessor. He, you know, who coined the phrase, "Well, the greatest show on earth,". and there's no such thing as bad publicity. - Mm-hmm, right. - Donald Trump, the key to Donald Trump, and he understood that from the get-go, and as politics was becoming more and more. kind of subset of show business in the end of the 20th century,

he got that, and then his moment came, and, you know, here he was. - Well, I feel like there were much learnings for us. from Spy at the Beast. One of the things I loved in Graydon's book. was the description of him and you sitting down together. and coming up with ideas, which you knew would make the other one laugh. And I feel like there's a lot of that at the Daily Beast, that we go around and we come up with a headline. and shout it to someone, and if they laugh, you know that that's what's going to work. I wanted to talk about Mark Carney, actually, your friend.

- My friend? - Well, your fellow Canadian. - My close friend. Oh, God, we're so close. God, we're so tight. - Well, he did have rather a good visit, I thought, this week with Trump. - Yes, I felt that in the conversation that they had, the televised conversation that they had, he was very firm, he came to do the job, and he did the job very well. I think he executed on the mission quite well. He seemed he was firm, he was confident, he sat up straight, he looked professional,

and that's really more than you can ask for these days. - Completely, and coherent. - Coherent, and to go the headlines. - And didn't suck up. I mean, when you meet with Macron and stuff, you always see Macron like--. - They love to shake hands and touch each other. - And touch each other, too. Whereas this guy was just, nope, I'm not gonna do that. And you say never say never, but Mr. President, Canadians are never going. to allow you to do that. - Perfect. And interestingly, he won in Trump's terms,

because Trump was still like nice, no, Canada and America love each other, we love each other. There was no of the performative aggression. and confrontation that he has done in that chair before. So it was, no, Canada. - Yes. - Do you think that Donald Trump is slightly intimidated. by Mark Carney? 'Cause Mark Carney obviously was the governor. of the Bank of England, he was a Goldman Sachs, which we know Donald Trump hates, 'cause he feels like the Goldman guys. were the people that kept him away.

And you could sort of see it playing out. that he was doing his big, shiny show offy self, but Mark Carney actually held the cards. - And I think because he speaks just like an American, Trump doesn't have that kind of xenophobic, you're just a foreigner, fuck you. You know, why he married two of his three wives, I think my theory of that has always been like, yeah, you don't speak English well, Ivana and Melania. So this guy, like yes, central banker, Goldman,

fit, just an American, I can't, how am I supposed to--. - Yeah, how do I penetrate? How do I penetrate this level of professionalism? Like, oh, this person is quite, this person clearly knows more than I do. - Which he hates, which he hates that. - Hates it. - And he said, actually a few weeks ago, he said he's a stiff, he's a stiff. Well, that's fair enough, but like, he was, it was really interesting to see.

not only Carney perform well, but Trump seemed a little back footed. - Yeah, I thought he seemed slightly cowed. or subdued with him, and he couldn't quite get purchase. You know, it didn't spiral, and then he did, Carney did get the headlines, which was never, we will never surrender, or whatever it was, we'll never, never sell. - So there were no moments that I saw anyway, of the sycophancy that every other one. - Yes, I mean, he was complimentary, I mean, he was complimentary, but in a measured, it was just all very measured.

And you know, he really is, if he's a stiff, that's great. He's the stiff that the world craves. - It's like caricature of the American, caricature of the perfectly competent Canadian. - Yeah, normie, normie. - Yes, yeah, which is what's going on. - Oh, and it could have gone in such a different direction, but I mean, really, the entire country, it's actually pretty remarkable that the country stood up. and rejected chaos, or rejected the unknown, in a really concrete way, actually. - And so quick, I mean, the fact that the polls,

they're changed so dramatically so quickly, and elected him, you know? - Yes, we'll probably discover at a later date. that he too has underpants with razor parks. embroidered on them. - Well, I certainly hope so, because that is just a beautiful tribute. - I would like to. - I have one with a king underwear on. - You do? - Oh my gosh, both of you have a dream. - Oh, you do. - I mean, so, Kurt, if Spy was still around, what would it make of the Met Gala now? - Well, the thing is, I mean, one of the beauties.

and lucky timings of Spy is that it was a monthly magazine. when you'd still have impact in these moments. before there was an internet monthly magazine. And so we would be able to do it, and we would do it pictorially and describe it, since there was no daily coverage of things like that. back in the day. And that's the other thing, by the way, that didn't exist when Trump was beginning, when Spy was beginning, or barely existed. The celebrity media thing from People Magazine.

to Instyle to all of it had just started. So that was a perfect thing for him too. Anyway, what we have done, we would have run pictures. and instead of saying, look, who she's with? Oh, look at this thing. We would have described them for what they are, you know? And for instance, the 16-year-old Samantha Bee. could have written about the Rosa Parks panties for us. No, I don't know what we would have done, but it would have been just, I mean, it was harder.

There were plenty of over-the-top, ostentatious, ridiculous, all the things that the Met Gala is one version of. happening then, but it wasn't so like, I mean, the seeds of that were starting right in the '80s in New York. when we were coming back and we were no longer bankrupt. and like, oh, let's show our money off. And again, part of Donald Trump's success at the time, like, yeah, I could be a rich guy, being a rich guy is okay. And the Met Gala is just an extreme kind of,

right before the French Revolution version. of ostentatious, let the meat cake, well, let the meat cake, but let's pretend we, let's put Rosa Parks' name on our underwear to show. that we really do care about it. - We really do care, yeah, I don't know, for me, I just kind of feel like it, and you know what, and I love the Costume Institute, I really do, I think they do incredible work, and I actually love the theme this year, I think it's great, it's just not for,

it's not an event that has any meaning to me, and I wonder if we are just past it, I feel it as a nation, we are just, oh, we are past it. - But did you see, I noticed Pamela Anderson, I didn't spend a lot of time. - Oh yes. - Observing the coverage of the Met Gala, but the Pat that Pamela Anderson came, looking beautiful in her new no makeup way, and in this normal, beautiful Tori Birch, see I did my research. - You did, you did, yes. - And like as opposed to the, you know,

Halloween party costume, - Right, yes. - That everybody else said, oh, look at her, oh, look at him, and it was just, you know, she could have gone a bit at the Oscar, she could have been at any gala, and not that everybody should be boring looking, but like it was a nice respite, and given the, a woman who became famous being fakey, the ultimate fakey, you know. - Sure, yes, yes.

- A gentle lady, you know, I mean, she was fantastic, and ironic, and perfect. - Yeah, she had a sort of elegance to her, I thought it's the show offering I find uncomfortable, and also I wrote a piece saying it's time. to send it to the consignment store of history, but the thing I was struck by was that exactly two years. previous, so 2023 Diddy, Sean Puffy Combs, was debuting his so-called couture collection, which was received with breathless prose by Vogue,

saying that he had sort of flowers along the seam, and it was said it was like looking at chameleons bursting. through a crack in the pavement, which it really wasn't, but whatever, and of course now he's limited clothing choices, as he's on trial for hideous crimes, racketeering, sex trafficking, and I'm told by people who've seen the evidence. that it's unlikely he will ever see the light of day. Of course, you never know, now he might go down. and then get pardoned by Donald Trump, but the sort of egregious lineup of people.

who got air cover by celebrities at the Met Gala, you know, you think of Harvey Weinstein, you think of Gillenn Maxwell, you think of Kanye's sort of spiraling into madness. and now selling t-shirts with swastikas on them, and you think actually this is what this gala has produced. I mean, yes, money for the costume institute, but also this grotesque lineup of celebrities. who are the, alongside Trump,

these sort of strange characters of celebrity. that mean nothing. - Right, and again, Anna Winter being very, very strategic and smart. in so many ways, having, you know, the great Nigerian novelist Adiche. as part of her post committee. I mean, the way she plays both sides. and is very true, but the thing about the Met Gala, and as you say, the diddies and Harvey's of the world, then, you know, you could have a whole lineup.

of former Met Gala guests and where are they? What clothes are they now? - What costume are they wearing now? - Because New York and New York fashion and stylishness, ever since I've been here almost 50 years ago, has had this like, oh, it's Vimar time, it's right before the fall, it's dark, it's dirty, it's weird, it's great, it's stylish. And that kind of celebration of decadence. uptown and downtown has always been part of the thing.

and it has its moments. And the Met Gala is like this scaling up. virtually mass marketing of that. Like, aren't we a rich kind of thing, you know? - Yeah, it's true, and Anna Wint is the great survivor. I mean, she really is, she's been there a long time, she's, what, 75 now? And she's really, you know, she's really, - If I can just. make one observation. - It looks like. the least fun event that a human being could attend.

- Why don't you ask to be a co-chair, won't you? - No, I was not asked to be a co-chair. I think that the way that it works, I think that the way that you get invited is that. your interest gets floated. It's sort of like, well, because it's such a huge commitment. It's just a huge money commitment and time commitment. and fashion commitment to construct an outfit. to work with a designer, to like, it's like a whole production. And so they float it to you, whether you would be interested or not. And it just was just a hard no for me.

because that is, I hate parties, like on a very basic level, very shy. You'll find me in the bathroom flipping over. the toilet paper rolls so that the toilet paper. hangs correctly, like I cannot. - You're the person that does that. - Oh, of course, every time. Even in a restaurant, it's actually weird. But so I, I just can't, I can't get with it. I said, no, my daughters are very mad at me. for admitting that to them,

but I just couldn't do it. I think in a, you know, when we were talking about. this episode, I did say the words, I think I would rather go to war than go to the Met Gala. And I don't think that specifically, that is not true. - If they shot at you at the Met Gala, (laughing). - Perhaps. - Because you'd be dying for a cause. - But I would be willing to like fall backwards. out of a military helicopter into a frozen ocean. rather than put on one of those outfits. and stand there sucking in my gut for the full. I have done that.

I have done that. I went one year to support Oprah. - What did you wait for? - When I was at Hearst and I was editing, I think I had the Marie Claire or Cosmo. Well, I remember--. - And then why are they allowed us to come? - They allowed us to come. Yeah, Rival Magazine Company, because Oprah, who was doing her magazine. with Hearst magazines. So it was the three line whip to go. And all I remember is sort of insane walking up the steps. And at the top of the steps was Anna Winton. You had to sort of, you know, squeeze her hand. It was very strange.

But what I actually remember--. - You didn't say you were a majesty as you did then? - Of course, I curtsied. I did the full thing. But I do remember going to the Lou. and the Lou was full of models. who'd done the red carpet, fulfilled their obligations to the advertisers. who'd taken them and were just like, "How do we get out of here? "How can we leave? "We don't want to stay anymore. "We want to go and smoke and drink outside. "at the Mark Hotel.". But the thing that was so interesting about it was. it was really just all for show. It was all about the red carpet. Then you climb the stairs, then you go in the room.

And it was Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga. who sang three songs, five songs. And then it was sort of done. And I think I was home by like 10, 15. - By the way, as you're describing the Met Gala. and you've been there, I think of other big, famous, fancy parties, the one that I've been to a few times. was Graydon, my co-founder, Graydon Carter's Oscar party. And like, which was, yes, it was a version of that. And there was a red carpet and movie stars. It was super fun though. - Right, right.

- It wasn't about, you went there and like, and for the first while, a long time into it, they passed out cigarettes, you know? And people drank and people talked. And it was fantastic. It was really a fun party, as well as being this Gala iconic publicity hogging event. Just saying, it doesn't have to be the kind of weird, kind of alternate universe nightmare. of the Auxian regime that the Met Gala is.

- Okay, so Kurt, you've just finished writing. your next book, "What's It About?". And then I want us to talk about the fuckinging of America, your great phrase. - Well, let me reverse, answer your questions in reverse. 'cause they're connected. - A book called "Fantasy, Why, History of America". by Haywire Fiber, your history. Hey, this is Trump was becoming president, he came out. It wasn't going to be about him. It was a weird little history book. and he walked in and became its kind of last minute.

poster book. So I wrote that and then I, coming off of that. and finishing it, I said, "Well, but what's the other part of this story?". And my friend said, "Do you mean. "of the fuckinging of America?". So yes, exactly. Which was to say the last 50 years. and how I sort of published a book called "Levil Geniuses". about how the right and the rich. and certain kinds of zealots got together. Really, 50 years ago and sort of plotting their hijacking. of our political economy in the United States. did so very successfully,

of whom electing Ronald Reagan president was only one piece. Anyway, so I thought about doing a third. They did well. Oh, okay. But I realized, I don't have, this is it. This is what I got to say. This is my unified theory of the fuckinging of America. And I'd been working on a novel. I published several, four novels before. during these two non-fiction books. and I had been working on a novel set in the future. I said, "Oh, I can do this. "and do, say whatever I have to say about the future.". It's a novel set 20 years in the future.

It is called "The Breakup.". And you can, that means, I have many meetings. in this future world I build. And so it's, you know, and again, like those two history books, which people thought, "Oh, this is kind of funny. "for a depressing history of America.". And again, this is, it's not a dystopian novel, but it is set in the future where, you know, more bad things happen between now and then. But there's, you know, I think it's, it's, there's a happy ashening to--.

- Well, that would be nice. - It sort of-- - It turns to America to--. - And also I'm thinking about the breakup of reality, the breakup of America, the breakup of all of it. - So, you know, I hope that, well, you know, I'll just turn it in so maybe we'll come out of here. That's what's-- - That's great. - Well, who knows if we'll still be here in a year. - Oh, sure. - Or else we'll just share bumps in the gulag. - Well, that's also a possibility. - No, it is not a way. - I will be following Bitsco. Otherwise it would be very boring.

I'm looking forward to going to Mars, though. I sort of am putting my hand up for that trip. - Oh, wow. I think it might be just-- - I'll be the first. - Okay, I'll let me know how I go. - All right, Kurt Anderson, thank you very much. for joining us. - So much. - Super fun. - Such a pleasure. - Oh, I love hearing from Kurt Anderson. - I do too, I do too. I miss hearing his voice. I miss hearing his voice. - On Studio 360. - Yeah, I really, really loved that show. So it was really nice to sit in person.

- Yeah, and he did it for 20 years. - The air is soothing. - And he interviewed you on it. He interviewed you for your memoir. - He did, yes, he did. And you need to read my memoir. - I do, I need to read your memoir. - Oh, boy. - I need to read your memoir. - Several copies. - Do I need to read it aloud? - Yes, actually, that would be helpful. - I might read it on the corner of Broadway in Halston. I'll ring a bell and I'll go, here you, here you, and I'll do selected readings. - You'll have to push me out of the way, because that's where I read my memoir out loud.

- Okay, yes. - Well, I'm looking forward to it. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, subscribe, comment, and share it with the stranger on the subway, the person in the traffic jam next to you, your person in your coffee shop, 100%. And don't forget to send all those emails. to BeastPod@TheDailyBeast.com. if you wanna hear directly from Joanna. Leave us a comment on YouTube, we're so curious. - I'm back at it on YouTube.

I'm back at it. - What you think of our outfits. - And do you know what, they're very, very complimentary about you. They're like, I really like Sam B. - Oh, wow, that's nice. Thank you, everyone. - You're even perked up now. - More of this, please. - If you're not a subscriber to The Daily Beast, why not, it's so easy to sign up. You just go to theDailyBeast.com. - And as always, never, never, never forget. as you go out in the world. Always, always be best. - Sam, when will you remember? It's Be Beast. - I will never learn this.

I refuse. I refuse. - Go straight to the Met Ball. and do not collect 200 as you pass go. - Just drop me in a frozen ocean.