The Dire Plan Trump Really Has for Legacy: Wolff | Inside Trump's Head

One of the few questions I managed to get in. was asking him about his presidential library. In his horror, he was. He was silent. I rushed in to kind of kind of apologize or to cover my faux pas. I said, a presidential library, it can be more like. And then out of nowhere, it came to me. I said, a theme park. It could be. It could be the Trump theme park. The look on horror of his on his face.

passed, and then a look of. what I would say. Something close to wonder. Crossed his face and say. And then be responsible. I mean, I very I very well might. Said Michael Koala. I wish that we were together in the studio. It's Tuesday and we should be this week. You're coming in on Thursday. That's two weeks in a row that you've messed with.

Our real in-person conversation, which I much prefer. It's Passover this week. I'm coming in for Passover on tomorrow night, so I will be there on Thursday. Okay. Passover. Should I explain that to you? No, but you could explain what we try and do three times a week. You're Michael Wolff, you've written four books on Donald Trump, two books on Rupert Murdoch. I'm Joanna Coles, the chief content officer of the Daily Beast. I've been a journalist for years, and,

well, you tell people what we're trying to do and where we're going just still. But just let me know. I don't know what a what a chief content officer is a totally made. up title in this, I guess in this new social media age, I think. of you as, as as an editor in chief. An old fashioned, the old fashioned way, boss. Maybe I'll call you boss. We used to do bosses. Good. We have a guy here who's been here.

since the beginning of the Daily Beast called Michael Daley. He's a very, very good reporter. He calls me boss. So I know, but but, I think it is important to say once again, what what we are doing. Because I think we are doing something different from virtually. what everybody else who is covering Donald Trump and, and every other journalist everywhere is covering Donald Trump. and basically only Donald Trump, because he is the story, that has crowded out all other stories.

But my feeling has been always since the beginning, and I've been doing this now for more than ten years, is that, he is the most unique figure. ever to take to run the government and to or to aspire to run the government. and to take our attention because he is. a man who lives solely in the moment, what he does, what he says,

what he decides is all dependent on what. is going through his head at any particular moment. And there is no pattern, no logic, no, in, in certainly no. found intellectual foundation for what goes through his head. But nevertheless, this is the thing that is the central to all of our lives. So to understand that to understand that,

that that he works in a way. and according to a, the theory, if you will, that no one in a position of this. kind of leadership has ever worked, and, so to understand that, to be able to say, okay, this is this strange and peculiar thing that is motivating him. at any given moment is a kind of,

a civic duty. And that's what we're doing now. Well, I like the idea of it being a civic duty, and. And I come at it from the point of view of character is destiny. He is a fascinating character. He's astride, as you say, all our lives. And I've always found politics actually quite boring. to read about and to listen about, because it's always been about policy. It feels dry. We know that politicians are hypocritical. They don't say what they mean a lot of the time. A lot of the time they're on the take.

But it's all sort of going on in the background. And what I find fascinating about Donald Trump. is not only that, the, and when I say we, I don't mean me particularly, but, you know, 70. million voters at the last election still bought the idea that Donald Trump. was a successful businessman because that's how he'd been portrayed. by Mark Burnett on the reality show The Apprentice. I think it's a huge part of why he got elected, and he's weirdly transparent.

I mean, the thing that one has to remember is that, you know, if you ever wanted. to get hold of someone. in the Biden government or indeed the president himself, you would have to go through 30 layers of people to get there. A lot of journalists have. And and then there would be number six up, right. There would be no there. But Donald Trump calls reporters, you can call Donald Trump. and he will pick up the phone if he's not in the middle of bombing Iran. And perhaps he would even make it up if he was in the middle of bombing Iran.

So that's what makes him so much more fascinating to cover. And the people around him. are interesting, too, because as you're frequently pointing out, none of them would get a job in any kind of regular cabinet. This is not a regular time, and the entire world right now. is in thrall to what he will do next, and he doesn't seem to know. what he's going to do next. Anyway. For those of you who haven't listened. or watched the podcast before, that's what we're trying to do here.

We're not trying to cover it. in a New York Times or Wall Street Journal way, though we, though obviously we read them and we appreciate what, what they do. Oh my. Oh, I don't, but I do what they do quite, quite, quite. the opposite to say that I think we're partly in this mess. because The New York Times does not have the wherewithal. and specifically does not have the language to, to, you know, to call a moron a moron. And, and so it, it continuously weaves a,

and an essential rationale for what he's doing when there is no rationale. So that's what we're here to remind everybody that, that this has happened, this enormous historical moment. has happened on a, on a totally random basis. What's going to happen? What's going to happen, today in Iran or tomorrow in Iran? Random. No, no, no rhyme or reason. So the New York Times can have a headline,

no rhyme or reason in the, in, in the white House. President is nuts. I mean, all of these kinds of things, which would be more accurate than what. the New York Times says. They can't say just because they don't have that language. Well, on The New York Times, I think, never took his campaign. as seriously as they should have done. And they seemed astonished both times when he won. Anyway, we don't need to worry about the New York Times. I need to make a huge apology.

for something I got wrong last week when we were discussing Michelle Pfeiffer. and you said when she come back from what do you remember her from? I foolishly said casino. And I think we probably got 2000 comments pointing out that. of course she wasn't in casino. That was Sharon Stone. Michelle Pfeiffer was actually in Scarface, another Mafia. movie I've not seen. Scarface, I'm assuming is a mafia movie. What could I say? Oh, blonds. They look alike. No they are. It's not a mafia movie. You're going.

Okay, what is gonna face about. What is Scarface about? I don't like violent movies. I don't watch violence. Oh, my God, I'm not going to address this. This is. What is it about? Well, it's about cocaine dealers in Florida. Oh, it's about coke. I didn't know that. I thought it was. It sounded to me like it was about the Mafia. I mean, in Miami, it's. It's the great. It's the great Miami drug film. Okay, well, I haven't seen it. I have seen casino.

I totally got Sharon Stone, Brian De Palma, by the way, who I know. happened to know is, is a faithful listener, and, a faithful listener of Inside Trump's head. Yes. Oh, good. Well, shout out to Brian and Brian. I'm sorry. He lives, he lives, he lives down the street. Okay, cool. Well, there you go. So, anyway, I'm sorry I got that wrong. And I have seen Michelle Pfeiffer and lots of things I hesitate to say. The Witches of Eastwick, because that wasn't a great movie, but she was in that with Cher and Susan Sarandon.

Have you? Are you sure? Have you check this? I actually did watch that. I watched it like 40 years ago. But I think anyway, I apologize. and thank you to everybody that pointed it out was a lot of people. And just to say, don't forget, we are independent media, so we appreciate your support. Feel free to press the subscription button on your wherever you get your podcasts. Because we're hopefully we're about to hit 600,000 subscribers actually. But it possibly by the end of the week and I think the week after next, Michael,

we hit our 100th episode of Inside Trump's Head. So I feel like we should do something special for it. Do you have any ideas? If anybody has any ideas, please suggest it could be some more limericks. More poems. You you would have. You would have think in 100 episodes we would have, We would have gotten to the heart of this man. Well, maybe we have.

And it makes no difference to heart. Maybe there isn't a heart. But I tell you what we are going to do. We are going to now play. And this is complicated for the people who are listening. Although you will get a blast of music. So last night Eric Trump released a video. which he says he has spent, the last six months putting his heart and soul into this project. So please, let's take it away.

You. You. You you. Oh, magnificent music. Which in fact we discovered is called limitless.

It's by Electro Romeo, and it's a royalty free song, you know? You know, I don't I'm not sure anybody has spent. enough time on the effect. of, of everybody in the world being able to make a cheesy video. The whole world is just cheesy videos everywhere. Can you just explain what Eric Trump has spent the last six months. and his heart and so on for people who didn't see it because it's.

Yeah, well, this is, this is a model I, this is I mean, I mean, what you see in the video is a is a is a is a tower. It actually kind of looks like the freedom Tower. in, in New York City that replaced the World Trade Center. But this building does not exist. This is just a model of the perspective, Trump. Presidential Library or the Trump Post presidential library.

So in a way that is good news, which is to say. that it is it does ignore that. There is an acknowledgment here on the part of the Trump family. that there will be a, a post presidency. There will not be an eternal Trump presidency. In other words, he leaves office and he will do. what other presidents have done is to build a library. And I actually have a story about this, in, after.

he was defeated in 2020, in the spring of 2021, when Trump for reasons that will always, astound me and bewilder. me, invited me to have dinner with him. in in Mar-A-Lago. I went down and and before dinner, we had a long conversation. Very long, like three hours. Typical Trump couldn't shut up, kept going. And at one point,

one of the few questions I managed to get in. was asking him about, about the president, his presidential library. Remember? He's out of office. He's no longer the president. He's in the in this moment of post-presidency when when presidents, former presidents turn to thinking about their legacy and their library. So I brought this up, and he looked at me with horror.

And that was, to me, the first indication and the strongest indication. that in his mind, he was not at all finished with being president. So, so do not bring up a presidential library, which means you are you are finished with your presidency. But there I suddenly, in his horror, he was. he was silent, which was really rare. So that's really unusual. So and I was kind of discombobulated and then I.

and so I rushed in to kind of kind of apologize or to cover. my faux pas about the library and saying, and saying, you know, a library doesn't a presidential library doesn't have to be a library, because suddenly it stuck in my head that that's what he was objecting to. Library books. I said a presidential library, it can be more like. And then out of nowhere, it came to me. I said, a theme park. It could be. It could be the Trump theme park with all kinds of,

you know, in they can experience the Trump world. And, the look on horror. of his, on his face past and then a look of. I would I would say something close to wonder. Crossed his face and and then he'd be responsible. I must I very I very well might. and and then we had certainly, 5 or 6 minute conversation.

about what a Trump theme park might be like. Restaurants, hotels. It was, casinos. It was everything was going bankrupt. Trump steaks, Trump wine, Trump champagne. And yes. And I think what is highway and what they are building? I might have a, have played a significant part in this.

Michael Wolff. It's sort of a remarkable building. I'm assuming it's, as they say, a mix of residential and office units and, and it's got those funny little people that architects videos. always have now, imagining people using this space as a big garden. There's a huge American flag that's rolling down the front of it. Enormous Trump name. It feels to me like something you would see in Abu Dhabi or Dubai.

Very tall, towering over, the Miami skyline. And, well, it. doesn't look like it would have a single book in it. No, but it will be. And I'm sure that this is part that there is what whatever. is going on here, whatever the legacy proportions of this are, I'm sure they are also attentive to the to the, to the Trump family moneymaking opportunities, of course, because they've immediately.

opened the Trump Library Presidential Library Fund. People can, I think the the lowest number that you could give was 10,000. And I'm sure there will be plenty of sponsorship opportunities. I almost wonder if we should avail ourselves of a sponsorship. opportunity and do the inside Trump's head room. Okay, well, from there, when it's built, I mean, who knows? It's going to be built faster, I'm sure, than, the Obama Library,

which opens this, summer and has been a hideous journey for the Obamas. and frankly, is not a very attractive building. You know, I, I would like to see some reporting on that. What happened here, but what the swamp has done a lot of reporting on it. David Gardner, our chief Washington correspondent, done a lot of reporting on it, actually. Well, I mean, it's been well, it's been delayed. Well, what what are the the the, the delays have been caused. by construction, by extraction issues, by lawsuits.

Inevitably. It's complicated. I will I now, of course, can't remember the details. because my head's full of what's happening in the war in Iran. But, I will find the details and we can discuss on Thursday. But it's not been, by any means, an easy process for them. And eight years on, it should have been I they've they've, they've settled on a, a phenomenally ugly structure.

I don't know, I think it was supposed to look. modern. You know, it was supposed to represent the digital age. as opposed to a library stuffed full of old, moldering books. Maybe in the end, the Obamas turned out not to have any taste either. Well, it's possible, actually. Anyway, let me come back to you with that, because it's an interesting story, the Obama library. But it does in theory, eventually open this this summer.

But it's been it's been wrought with, with lawsuits. was, as I'm sure Trump's will be too and dare I say, because it's not exactly on the on the horizon. The Bush and Clinton libraries, where are they? Do they exist? The Clinton libraries in. Yeah, in Arkansas and in the city. Is it a big building or is it a, I don't know. It's great question. I've never been I haven't knowingly been to Arkansas.

And I'm sure you probably went there with Bobby Kennedy, didn't you, back in the day? No, I know you went to Alabama. We were in Mississippi. I thought you were in Alabama. Oh, maybe it was Alabama. No. Muscle Shoals? No, it was Mississippi, actually. Okay, I promise you. You said Alabama. I might have anyway. But the other thing I forgot. Okay, the other thing I forgot to mention is the will. Of course, it was Alabama. Birmingham, Alabama. Yes. Thank you. Oh. Thank you.

But I will. I know close, close observers of this podcast would remember that, I think. But, the other thing that the Trump Library will have. is a golden statue of Donald Trump waving at people. So a bit like to remember. those huge statues of Saddam Hussein. that got pulled down very early in the, American invasion of Iraq. It sort of reminded me of one of those hand. sort of waving, you know, I'm going to I'm going to propose a different.

outcome here, because I think it is. it is possible, certainly as possible, that we are now in the midst of things. going incredibly wrong for Donald Trump, that when he exits this presidency, which he will exit, it will be in, in some form of disgrace, and of massive unpopularity and of,

of which will. surely limit his post-presidential. The post-presidential or that he is expecting. Okay. Well let that that leads me to read his Trump Truth social. Which he fired off this. morning in a sort of weird schoolboy rage. And this is obviously about,

the Strait of Hormuz, which is still closed. The Americans, as. we understand it, trying to decide whether or not to call victory pull out, but leave the Strait of Hormuz in an uncertain, position. Okay. And this is him sort of tweeting out, I think, to the European countries, build up some delayed courage, go to the strait and just take it. You will have to start learning how to fight for yourself. The USA won't be there to help you anymore.

Just like you weren't there for us. Iran has been essentially decimated. The hard part is done. Go get your own oil. Okay, so I actually the key thing that is obviously wrong here. is that the hard part is not done, the easy part is done. And what he is saying and what they are now laying out is that we will. we will declare victory, go home and we will leave the Strait of Hormuz,

under control of the Iranians. Now, that's that is, understand the Iranians have now claimed this as part of their territory, which is entirely new, that did not exist before the war. So what. what the war will have accomplished. is to give the Strait of Hormuz to the Iranians. They have control of that. They did not have control of it before.

But that's what the war will have accomplished. To let the Iranians control have absolute control. over 20% of the world's oil, to keep the world in, effectively, a stranglehold. That's what Donald Trump will have accomplished. And just to remind people, 20% of the world's oil flows through. the Strait of Hormuz, which, of course, most people had never even heard. of before the Americans started bombing five and a half weeks ago.

So, so, Michael, you know what's going. on inside Donald Trump's head as he looks out over this thing? He he's ultimately said he wants the Iranians to declare. unconditional surrender, which they're clearly not going to do. He's already declaring it to victory. Pete Hegseth is going around flapping his pecs, saying, it's all marvelous. What actually is is happening. And Donald Trump said, well, you know, I mean, I, I think that he went into this with.

I was going to say the best of intentions, but that seems weird, the best of military intentions, that is to say, Donald Trump, the asymmetric president has now. waged, is now waging a perfectly traditional war. So he is doing. a there was a famous book written about the Vietnam War called The Best. and the brightest and essentially essentially what that said.

is that all these smarty pants guys, these Harvard guys. and these corporate chief kind of kind of guys, were unable to fight this. functionally ragtag band. of guerrillas from from North Vietnam. And ever since, basically, that's what we've, we've. we've understood we've understood that that was that that war had. that war had significantly changed the idea of, of of bombing your way.

to victory, of bombing your way to victory, of bringing, bringing, heavy troops in, as, to clear the field ahead of you. was a way that didn't necessarily work anymore. So Donald Trump's. dumb and dumb ass have are so dumb as I love the juxtaposition of deaf.

and dumb as to as to the as to imitate the best and the brightest. Who we who we have long since understood. were, in fact, dumb and dumbest. So the cycle here is, is kind of. kind of extraordinary, but, well, and I think that's, that's. what gave gave Donald Trump the confidence to go in and bomb. as, as he kept saying the hell out of people because. brighter people had made plans before.

we saw this in Baghdad and it didn't work, again and again. So they are just doing what doesn't work. And now and there's there's this other added thing. here that no one had told Donald Trump about, partly because he didn't pay attention to the war in Ukraine. Yeah. I mean, he kept brushing this off. I'm going to solve it in a day. Pay no attention. Not not not not interested. And I think, I think from a.

from a distant perspective, we will look back. and say what was the important event of our time in it? And one of those important events. will be the war in Ukraine, because it changed the nature of war. It's suddenly the war of the war in Ukraine began, inaugurated the age of drones, cheap drones. So so we've used drones in Afghanistan now. Well, not, not not remotely at the level that they are. being used in, in Ukraine.

and not remotely in the in the way. that they can be assembled by almost anybody. I mean, this is, this is entirely, entirely a new a new, a new factor in waging war. I mean, a factor so great that it is. that is destabilizing the very nature. of the power of the US military against, against an enemy which has no power except cheap drones,

which the Iranians do, in which they have clearly paid attention. to what the Ukraine the Ukrainians have have done. So in this situation, in the paradigm here we are, Russia. and the Iranians are the Ukrainians are Ukraine. So we underestimated the enemy. And Trump is now trying to figure out what to do. And he probably,

as you say, I mean, he may. just sort of move from moment to moment without any clearing. Well, right at this, at this moment, I mean, he has I mean, he has this, you know, there is his deadline, which people keep coming back to, although the guy has never stuck to any deadlines, ever, of 4 to 6 weeks. We are now at week four, slightly more than week. Well, today will be Saturday will be week six. That will. And, so so we come, we come up to, to the, to the deadline.

What is he going to do now? Remember, at the same time, we are massing all kinds of troops in, in the region. What is he going to do with them? The truth is, he has no idea. He just doesn't. He just doesn't know. But he does, I think, increasingly. have an idea that this is a significant problem for him. How does he solve this problem? Well, he only has really two alternatives. More or less.

And, and and we don't know. I mean, I mean, everybody can sort of shrug at this, at this, at this point. What will he do? Will we invade. the country. or will we retreat from the country? But in any event, if we retreat from the country, we leave the Iranians in, in, he, you know, in a, in a. in, in, you know, I'm trying to.

I mean, it's a complicated position that that we lead them because leave them. because obviously the leadership has been decimated. The the, the infrastructure, 11,000. targets that we have that we have bombed. But at the same time, the leadership stays in place. and they now have this lock on the world's oil. So, what have we accomplished?

I mean, that is that is going to be the, the, the question afterwards. What in the question Donald Trump, one would hope is going to have to answer. Well, perhaps because it's an existential fight for the Iranians. They also seem to have figured out that Donald Trump says a lot doesn't. always mean a lot. You can push back on him. And every time he says, well, when negotiating with the Iranians. and it's going well, they issue a statement saying, no, we're. not negotiating and it's not going well, which is also pretty amazing.

And nobody seems to know who we are negotiating with. Nobody knows who's in charge. Yeah. So what happened? I mean, what I mean, the larger the larger question. is, what price does Donald Trump pay for this? This is obviously a mistake to have wage. this war having made that mistake. He has the war is obviously not, not producing the goal,

not achieving the goals that he outlined for it to achieve. And, and we are still yet on the abyss. of not knowing what to do, which way to go. So how is this, Michael? How is this impacting MAGA when you talk to people from the MAGA world, what are they saying? Because I'm hearing two things. One is that MAGA is coming round to this. One is that MAGA is splitting over this.

I'm trying to see if I can. reconcile those, those those two things. MAGA does not have any place else to go. So there's a certain kind of, of necessary, begrudging. acceptance at the same time, MAGA is going to have to find. someplace else to go, because Donald Trump is not going to be here forever. So you have you have a significant group, MAGA group. that is positioning itself against,

for the future. And I think that was one of the things you saw at, at, at. CPAC, enormous disgruntlement with, with, with, with what's going on in, in, in great uncertainty about how to handle, handle it, but also a great deal of doubling down. on, on the MAGA, the MAGA of it all.

So there was an interesting thing at, at, at K-Pax. where, where Paxton, the, who's running for the Senate in, in US in Texas and there's a real, who would be the candidate, the Republican candidate. most easy to beat for the Democrats? And he is running against a much more traditional Republican, a,

you know, a rhino type, and John John Cornyn. Right. And, and who, who Trump has basically concluded he ought to back because the seat. otherwise may well be imperiled, but the MAGA people, the MAGA base are insisting on. on Paxton and booing Cornyn. Really? So again, it's double down. We are we are MAGA. We are pure.

We have a future beyond. beyond Donald Trump and. and and it should be pointed out that Ken Paxton is is almost more MAGA than Trump. I mean, he's a crazy candidate. No normal person I think would vote for him, which is why Trump finds himself in the position. of having to probably support John Cornyn, because otherwise they. could lose the Senate. Right. And they and and and he cannot now do this because. because the MAGA people are, are are are lined up. So,

you know, they are so dedicated in their opposition. to Cornyn and, and and for Ken Paxton. Yeah, it's it's really interesting. So MAGA is is certainly a thorn in Donald Trump's side. And I think and I think that will that will grow I mean we're we're. you know and it will you know the I mean there are two things there.

I mean the war is not helping things, but also the fact that Donald Trump is a lame duck. And, and, and if MAGA is going to have. a future beyond this administration, and I tend to believe. they will not have an a future beyond this administration, but they certainly recognize that in order to have this, this, this future, they have to double down on their own purity. So we had a very good story in the beast, pointing out.

that almost no member of the cabinet had been on television recently. We know that this is a cabinet that loves to talk to the press. and berate the press and attack the media and say everything's the media's fault, but they've been missing in action since the beginning of the war. What's happening with Stephen Miller? We've got a new head of, homeland security in Mark Wayne Mullin. Stephen Miller seems to have gone quiet. You know? I mean, I think Stephen Miller is just taking cover on Under the War.

I don't see any any indication that there is less. Stephen Miller in the, in what's going on in this white House. And in fact, in fact, the push against against, birthright citizenship, under the 14th amendment is being led by Stephen Miller, and that is now a now before the Supreme Court, I think this week. Yeah. I think we get a decision tomorrow so we can discuss it more in full,

hopefully on Thursday. I mean, but but Stephen Miller is is one of the, if not the leading. Well, certainly one of the leading voices in this, in this white House. And, and it's an interesting thing because, I mean. Let's characterize this. I think that you can, safely without fear of much controversy,

contradiction say. that at the highest levels of the white House, there is a kind of official white supremacist, and, you know, you know, one of the things I remember, especially in the, in the, in the first administration, but still still going on, is that he had this, he would go around and really nobody wanted to, to quite listen to this. He had this, this, this theory about, about.

about about the, the white majority in the U.S. and that, that would go away. And then he had a kind of numbers matrix of what would have to happen. in order to white people. to still remain the majority in America. And that that was a combination of, of, of immigrants, of immigration. that had to be stopped and of, of.

and of the level of, of the deportations that had to happen. And it was a kind of a kind of weird, a weird math that disguise. What, what what one person. in the white House described to me as, as Steven's, masturbatory white race fantasies. So this is still this is this is who is, the person who is at at the, you know, one of certainly.

one of the most significant voices in this administration. And that goes to all birthright citizenship is a major thing. I mean, they do they do see that. No, this is this is something that. that the country is, is overwhelmingly in favor of. It's a fact of life that we have lived with for, for, for 100 years. 50. Yes. 150.

It is, it is what so many people, you know, I mean, a significant portion. of the American population has, in fact, counted on, and, and, and now these people are talking about, about getting rid of it gone. And one would think that that, I mean, the language, the constitutional language is so clear that one would think. the Supreme Court would say, yeah, you know, fuck you. But,

but, you know, this is Donald Trump's court. Yeah. Although they will have their own immigration stories, too. I still don't understand how JD Vance, who's married. to Usha Vance, whose parents came from India, and who has three children with Russia and has another on. the way, can sit at the same table as Stephen Miller. What has happened to JD Vance?

He seems to have just vanished, you know. Well, I think that he has. I mean, apparently he's going to take a role. in a in the negotiation with the Iranians if there is a negotiation. But it's not only because the Iranians have said that they don't. want to discuss anything with Jared and Steve. Well, who knows, but I think it's I think it's, I actually I think it has a more political a basis here.

I mean, Vance represents the. the MAGA no forever Wars view. So best to put him into this situation. to theoretically represent MAGA. And also to from Marco Rubio's. point of view, involve him in this, make him complicit. This this word that is frequently used,

in, in what's going on there? So they don't want JD Vance out on his own. as, as representing MAGA purity. Okay, so let's talk about your part. two of your Epstein diaries, which I really enjoyed reading. You're getting lots of of comments on them. Lots of people, really engaged with them. And this is where you talk about his trip.

to Africa with Bill Clinton and. and his decision brilliantly using his plane. as bait for Bill Clinton to become one of Clinton's. post office post-presidential friends, at which actually, Donald Trump is furious about because he wanted to become the dominant. I know it's a it's a kind of interesting thing. I mean, I mean, one of the things in this will be so anyway,

this is a series that I am doing on Substack on a weekly basis, telling the story about about, of of what I know about Jeffrey Epstein from the, from the beginning. when I first met him in 2000, through to his death in 2019. And I'm going to be doing this on a, on a, on a weekly basis, like an old 19th century form for my. I'm, I'm, trollop or Dickens.

Well, it's a it's a cliffhanger. It's a cliffhanger series. And the, but but one of the interesting things is this the incredible competition. between between Trump and Epstein, I mean, beginning in the late 80s and running through to, to 2004. But part of this was this competition they had over, over. who would be best friends with Clinton. I mean, they both had a big crush on the guy.

I, you know, he was both because of his incredible. political talents and because of. flying so near the sun. This was their kind of guy. And it was. And it was. It was Epstein who managed to insert himself with his plane. in the Clinton entourage and, and much to Trump's, annoyance.

Well, and you have the trip to Africa. with Jeffrey Epstein, Bill Clinton and Kevin Spacey. Again, another man. that's lived very close to the I wouldn't say son, but certainly close to the edge, repeatedly accused of all sorts of things. that he's never been found guilty of, we should say. And then your own visit. to Epstein's house and your. an Epstein's, it should be said, apparent seduction of you.

because he just talks to you about yourself for an hour. and you leave a journalist to a man who asked questions all the time. And I've certainly sat in many rooms. where you ask a question and the room goes silent, and then everybody feels obligated to to answer and give you stories. But but you leave his house, the first time thinking, gosh, I haven't asked him a single question. And then it becomes apparent a year later when he's trying to figure out.

how to get people to write about him in the way that he wants to be written about. So in New York Magazine and in vanity Fair, that he really. is trying to solicit your advice. to get the best possible kind of profile about himself. And he's pretending he doesn't want press. Yeah, well, I guess, yeah. I mean, that was the interesting thing because it was like these these, you know, because he suddenly it's because of the Clinton flight that, that, that he suddenly becomes noticed.

The New York Post writes a story about him. Who's this guy we never heard of with a big plane ferrying Bill. Clinton around and then other, because, you know, the presses are lemmings. So suddenly Vanity Fair. and New York Magazine are saying, okay, this guy must be important. Let's, let's, let's write about him. And, and so I, he calls me up and this is, you know, this was sort of. I mean, he had called me up once after the, the trip to that.

that I, that I talk about in the first, first chapter, he had taken. a group, had a group of people out to a tech conference in California, and then he had called me up after that for a cup of tea. for a reason I couldn't quite figure out, except to ask me about about what I did and to talk about the media. And then about a year later, calls me up again, and for advice. So. So what should I. The media is calling me.

I don't want to be in the media. What do I do? So. And I gave him the advice that I always give. everybody who says they don't want to be in the media, which is to say, don't return the media's calls. But of course, he did return their calls. and precisely what he wanted was to be in the media. He wanted to be famous. He wanted to he wanted his moment of. of notoriety, which was extremely strange.

If you think about it, because here's a guy who lived, you know, a shadow business life. and in the various sexual life. So he was just effectively exposing himself. But I think at that moment in time, in this, in this would have been in, 2000 and. Two so before he'd done any jail time in Florida.

Yeah. 2000. Yeah. So this would have been and and, and I think that there was this moment in time. when all of these guys when, when, when media. currency was among the highest, publicity was the currency of the time. And and I think he, he, he wanted that like they all did. Well. And of course it was Pre-social media. So you have more control over the media and a piece in Vanity Fair or piece.

in New York magazine meant something and wasn't likely. to be torn apart and distributed clip by clip all over social media. I think people are much more wary about it now. But back then, as you say, it was a currency of the time. and something that Donald Trump had really mastered. It's always slightly depressing. seeing who presidents hang out with when they leave office, isn't it? I mean, I remember being slightly disappointed. when the Obamas left the white House, and then the next thing you knew,

they were kitesurfing in Necker with Richard Branson. Well, you know, I mean, it's a really it's a kind of I mean, first, yeah, I mean, all of these guys together seem, but seem always unseemly. But, but I'm trying to think it is now, at this moment in time. where I think that that's that's that is that is much more of the case. I think then there was still we still lived in an age of reflected.

glamor that has gone away entirely. I actually quite the opposite, in which everybody. who you know of, everybody who's head is above the, above ground level is tainted and suspect, and, and it is entirely new, unexpected. And and in the situation that still.

I think people in public life have not come to come to grips with. and a situation obviously affecting people who go into public life. Right. Tainted and suspect. Well, tainted and suspect. I found it a very good read, and I can't wait for next week. And I like the cliffhanger. It's a bit like sort of HBO releasing its shows once a week. Yeah, well, you know, the interesting is to be able to write this from.

from inside to tell this as a, as a story. and not look at this as a, as a set of revelations. I mean, this is I mean, Jeffrey Epstein happened to be a real person. living a real life as disreputable as it might have been. It it is, it is in that 19th century Trollope Dickens. kind of way, a life, a life in the city, a life of power,

a life among other people who are also grasping for power. I mean, ultimately a story about about, about ambition and, successful ambition and thwarted ambition. Well learned about sex and about an industrial sized network of young women. It is a very. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what everybody that's. just the obligatory thing that you have to say. So that's the undercurrent of the whole thing. But I mean, that's I don't think it's the undercurrent of the whole thing.

I think the under the undercurrent of the whole thing. is, is, is, is is power. A moment in time when power was being seized by a whole new set of people. You know, I mean, I think our world was being remade at this, at this, this time. And yes, Jeffrey Epstein was was doing all kinds. of nefarious things, on the side. But in the, in the main, he was he was trying to make himself.

part of this, of this new world of power. I mean, there's a kind of thing even in this thing, you know. You know, I mean, he talks to me. as as he's telling him. He's telling me about at one point, he's criticizing Trump's. media strategy and says he has no message. And I say to him asking the obvious question, and, and and your message is. and then he he brings up a book and he has the book there.

It's a book by Walter Isaacson, and it's about a set of people. after the Second World War, super establishment people. In, in and out of government, from important families who basically made, you know, remade. or helped remake the world order after the Second World War. And it was suddenly like, whoa, he sees himself as this kind of this.

kind of person, this kind of person operating in the, in the, in, in, in sort of the back rooms. So it was the time also of, of it. turns out incredible delusion. Are you still there? Yeah. Yeah, I'm still here. I'm still thinking I don't like the way you dismiss the whole women thing. I think the women thing is much bigger than you realize. And it's also how he and he.

He baited a lot of guys, a lot of of a lot of rich men who would come to his house and Jeffrey. Oh, totally. I am just trying to see this story in, in much broader terms. And I'm trying to see it see it from inside, from in a sense, the the way he saw it. So it's not at all. At all. At all downplay. the, the, the women and the women who have been.

who have been victimized in this situation. But to offer a different way of seeing this, we don't have to see one story the same way. And there's enormous amount of pressure or enormous amount of pressure. to see this story the way, the way, from a particular political or ideological or, or, the,

you know, the social, social media sees this in one way. I'm, I'm able to see it in a different way. And that's just the contribution I'm making, you know, better or worse, on a different view. Right. And I find your version incredibly interesting and incredibly reasonable. And I urge everybody. listening and watching to, to to read it because it really is good. And I noticed you are number one on Substack. I don't think they're doing it. Epstein is getting away with anything in, in in my version.

I think it actually probably explains. helps explain why he why he did what he did in a way. that is that I think is sort of has been difficult to understand. Well, and I think, you know, another way of looking at his life is the Virginia due. for a book that gave me insight into into him and into, Maxwell, who's gone quiet now? I mean, who knows what's going to happen to her whether or not.

she serves a sentence in, in her prison camp in Texas, where she was removed after where she was moved to after Todd Blanch. You know, as we've talks about, went to interview her for two days last summer. Anyway, I think if you read the Virginia Drew for a book. and you read your excerpts or your cliffhangers side by side, you get an interesting perspective on a very strange guy. But I can't wait to read next week's and if you have been,

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