Real Reason Trump Is Never Going to Recover: Wolff | Inside Trump's Head

And he's rightly cornered. He doesn't know what to do because no one knows what to do. He's gotten himself into a situation that he can't get out of the know. Forever Wars president is right now trapped very clearly. in a forever war on a tipping point scale. This is very much, very clearly, I think indisputably the beginning. of the end.

Michael. Joanna. What's happening man? What's happening? We're recording this on Tuesday morning. The president has thrown out lots of ultimatums. Well, it's possible that the world is ending. Well, I would just like to say that is. It is. I mean, essentially, Donald Trump is right now, as we speak, threatening to end the world. I mean, civilization, I think, in his words, civilization as, at least the Iranian people know it.

So we are at a moment, a critical moment in which he is. essentially saying, I'm going to go further in warfare. than we have gone since the Second World War. This I mean, I don't think any American president, I'm not sure any leader Putin, possibly with the exception of Putin, has ever been this explicit.

in his intention to to. to create a level of destruction that the world. has not seen in a very, very long time. So this is like, let's not. let's not hold back here. Now, this is Donald Trump. So we have no idea what's going to happen. And he can scamper away any second.

But right now, at this juncture, it's it's sort of could be darkness at noon. So we're recording this on Tuesday morning. We have no idea what's going to happen, but what's going on where we go. three times a week inside that. big head of his with its moldy hay, and its orange complexion and its increasingly hunched. He's he's cornered, obviously.

I mean, he doesn't know what to do when he doesn't know what to do. The threats get greater, the language gets more, more explicitly. Well, stupid of course, but violent. Explicitly violent and threatening. And he's, I mean, he and he's rightly cornered. He doesn't know what to do because no one knows what to do. He's gotten himself into a situation that he can't get out of.

So the the of. the no Forever Wars president is right now. trapped very clearly in a forever war. And the sort of foolish bragging which would work. well in a television show, in a reality show. And we're always talking about how this is the spin off. and how he looks at everything through the lens of, of a reality show. This is reality. And there's been so much knock on effects from the bombing campaign against Iran.

and his sort of ridiculous comments like, five presidents. didn't have the balls to do this. I'm the only person that couldn't do this. And in fact, what he's brought us is a crisis around the Strait of Hormuz. that no one had heard of really, before he started this. No, no. And he's off the the balance of power there has been altered not in our favor. So before it was just a water, a free passage waterway.

Now, essentially, the Iranians have taken over the Strait of Hormuz. I mean, before the war, they they they had no claim on the Strait of Hormuz. Now they have a claim and they have actually a kind of stranglehold. I mean, nobody knows what to do, right? The balance of power, literally the balance of power has shifted. because they've figured out that all you have to do. is, well, actually, all you have to do is threaten.

And that inhibits insurers and, and boat owners and, and everybody who might try to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. So therefore it's that it's an embargo. on 20% of the world's oil without really doing very much. Right. Well, and it's the most extraordinary story yet again, of a David and Goliath. that America strides along as Goliath exerts shouts that we've got.

the biggest military in the world. We've got unfathomable bombing capacity, which is true, but it's not always what wins in the end. As we know from the last few wars. And the thing that really irritates me is that this makes you root against. Donald Trump. So you're rooting against America, which nobody, you know, no American actually wants to do. But it's hard to feel anything but unenthusiastic about this foolishness. Yeah. Well, and it also goes to to the point that not only do you have to be the most.

powerful, nation on earth, but you do have to be a little bit intelligent. And Donald Trump and his collection of stupids, and these are stupid, stupid, stupid people. I mean, more stupid because they're wedded to Donald Trump's stupidity, right? I mean, you cannot be. I mean, structurally, you cannot be around Donald Trump and be smarter than he is.

Then then you're going to you're you won't be around him. So so the entire intelligence, the entire. IQ of the American government. has been lowered by Donald Trump. And what's interesting is that he knows he's cornered. despite his ludicrous press conference, which we can go into in a minute. But he's already started laying the blame for us and for JD Vance. And there was a wonderful moment where JD Vance gets caught out.

Trump throws it to him and says, how's it going, JD Vance? How how's the negotiations going? And JD Vance isn't expecting to have the ball thrown at him. So he's kind of, you know, obfuscating because he really doesn't know. And it's very clear that Trump is saying this is on JD. and we know that JD didn't want to go to war. He's got a book coming out called commune in how he found his faith again, I'm sure he did find his faith again after working for Donald Trump. So JD Vance is thinking once my book tour starting.

and how can I make some more money out of this whole thing? He doesn't want to be lumbered with. Well, and more importantly, JD Vance, who will run for president in 2028, at least run for the Republican nomination, has to be is is set up to be. the MAGA candidate, but the MAGA candidate has to be a no forever Wars candidate. And suddenly, Donald Trump has linked JD Vance to a forever war.

I mean. It's pretty it's pretty smart from Trump's point of view. I mean, I'm definitely not rooting for JD Vance. So it's pretty smart that he's managed to put a grappling hook. around JD Vance, who was he was always get away from the war. I mean and another one rampant. Nominee is going to be in. he is going to go into undermine of course. So it doesn't make sense. Why not start. Now? Right. But he's obviously figured out that both SS and JD Vance, sort of.

young enough to be to possibly present as a kind of new future for America. And he's not having any of it. And they're both going to get lumbered with the blame for this war, which is not going well. And and Marco Rubio, actually, because he sort of. somehow managed to really associate himself with the 24. hours of glory in Venezuela at the moment, seems a little less slimed, fair.

I mean, we've you. Know, I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, Rubio is just an old neocon, right? So, so, I mean, he's going to get, as the neocons. always do, going to get saddled with this war. And he's going to go down these wars don't, don't. So he's going down to. Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, the principle is that Trump will bring anybody down. There cannot be another Republican president opposite him, because that would supersede Donald Trump, who is going to leave office.

and go back to Mar a Lago as the once and future president. He will be Donald Trump. Any any new Republican president. compromises Donald Trump's identity. So that won't happen. At least Rubio has the decency to look anxious about this whole thing. Every time you see a picture of him, you look like his soul left his body. so really sweaty. God, yeah. And he's he looks older, his face is crumbling in on itself,

and he looks utterly panicked, whereas JD Vance just looks swollen. Spring is finally here, and I know you probably have plans for a night of fun with friends. Well, here's a product to help you wake up. Well, after a night at the bar. it's called Z Biotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink. And it's a genetically engineered probiotic invented by PhD scientists.

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So just go to Z biotics.com forward slash Daily Beast. and use Code Beast at the checkout for 15% off your first order. And if you're not satisfied, they offer a 100% moneyback guarantee. All of. these people are the people around Donald Trump. So everything that they think and everything that they feel and. and every action they take is about reaction to Donald Trump.

What will Donald Trump think? What will how, how will Donald Trump, a Trump, hit back at them if they don't do it right? What does Donald Trump expect of them? I mean, I mean, this is this is. No, it's embarrassing. And the way they said yesterday in the press conference, and this is all possible because of the great courage. of Donald Trump, because of the majesty of Donald Trump.

You're just like everybody else. Nobody. Nobody has agency here, and nobody's. agency has literally been removed by by Donald Trump. I mean, this is just think of Donald Trump as as you. would think of the world around Stalin. He could kill you any minute. Right. And you do not want to be. Just just a you. Don't want to be the first person who stops clapping. Stalin. Right? That's the song. Exactly what comes out of his mouth is a reflection. of what's going on in his head, obviously.

And it's it's bonkers. And it's obvious he's cornered and panicked. I mean, I was the the, the truth social on on Easter morning, which Tucker. Carlson has now flagged in. a particularly Tucker like way. And obviously for Tucker's own benefit is like, like that. that that post was the the fuck, Well, it was, What was it? Open the fucking streets, you crazy bastard.

Exactly. And so and so Tucker Carlson has said, you know, I mean, I think his main issue was saying fuck on Christmas. More on Easter, darling. On Easter morning. And so we can we can burnish. Tucker's Tucker's Christian credentials. But it also goes to the fact that this is that this is nuts. What is the man saying? What is the point here? And also, from a strategic level,

he is raising the expectations of what he will do. of of obliteration and Armageddon and, and the end of the world, which is he is not going to do so. He is going to raise the expectations, and then he's. going to have to run away from them again. Right? Okay. So how can this be good for Donald Trump? Well, I mean. Well and he sent the truth social out on Easter morning, probably.

having woken up to the realization he's being attacked by the pope. So the Pope, you know, addresses his crowd. It's his first Easter, first American pope, that. those who have power should use it peacefully, which is obviously not what, what Trump is doing. And then, and then there was. the strange conversation when he was asked about, you know, he's got on your side during the Monday. press conference, and he was like, God is great, God is good.

And he and. I mean, he and Texas have sort of dragged God into this. for obvious reasons, for political gain, but it just feels ridiculous. No, it's I mean, that's the other thing, the believability, gap here. Or in my day during the war in Vietnam, what we used to call the credibility gap. Right. Is, I mean, I think that I think we are seeing that again.

What he says versus what the reality is in this goes back to always that. that metaphor that I come back to this, the split screen, because Trump is obviously a television performer. So you might as well stick with the, with the central metaphor that we always come back to. And in this split screen, he has, you know, the, it is Armageddon and obliteration. and the, the, the full force of the United States.

military, the greatest force that the world has ever known. No one's ever seen anything like it. No one seen anything like which is. Which is true. Except for then in the other screen, you have the the Iranians in, who's. whose military has clearly been degraded, if not devastated, nevertheless managing to hold hold the world hostage. So, so it is again in this Trump thing,

these absolute contradictory realities. which he does not know how to bridge. Well. And the other thing is, when he goes into his speeches, you can see him then trying to sort of wander off. So he attacks Biden as a retard. And he says, you know, he goes off. There's some sort of moment there where he pulls in North Korea. and he says, only pleased about the way I've, I've, you know, I've got a great relationship with North Korea. and actually Kim Jong IL or UN, whichever one is said, that.

But Biden was retard. So he says that twice, then he says, he says that. he inherited he said this twice in the last 2 or 3 days. He inherited a crippled and dead country, which he's. now made into the hottest country. I mean, again, falling back on his language. that he used for his team of lawyers that you were used to say. He used to say yes. He used to say to you, I don't. I may not have the best lawyers, but I've got the hottest lawyers.

And now he may not have the best country, but he's got the hottest country. Many people saying it's the hottest country. Oh, no, I mean. It's just so embarrassing. It's. Well. It's not, but it's it's beyond embarrassing. I mean, it is in and it and it goes to it. reflects what is going on in his head, which is all kinds of weird, all kinds of dangerous, all kinds of incoherence.

So he doesn't know. He doesn't know not only what he's doing, but he doesn't. really even know what he's thinking from moment to moment. Well, at the Easter egg hunt or the Easter Easter egg roll. at the white House on Monday, he was signing things with children. I think he was signing eggs. And he said, you know, this was Joe Biden. He wouldn't be using a pen. He'd be using the autoharp. And and there's a trial looking at him, the charges, guess what?

And the child has no idea. And you and you're conscious that in Trump's head, he's just like Biden? No, I actually. when in the presence of children, he always says something strange. Right. Super aggressive. I remember remember when they told told some some child there was no Santa Claus. That's right, that's right. And Melania is just standing there and she's become even more silent. Hello? I say nothing, I'm totally silent. I mean, she just she was standing there.

grinning as he was talking about in the equipment that. I mean, it's this other thing because, I mean, I've seen this. I've literally witnessed witness this. I know countless times Trump they are blah, blah, blah. And everyone around him kind of holding their breath. Right. What was he going to say now? It's not as if the people around Trump think that this is. that this is normal and logical. and business as usual.

They think this is crazy. And they also kind of think, you know, when, when is the world going to call them? You mean, how do they. I mean, it's a it's a sense almost of did are we going to get away with this again? Well, and perhaps please don't let us get away with this again. I mean, I'm, I'm really concerned that that actually Susie. Wiles getting treatment for her cancer is actually part of this whole thing. What are you hearing?

You tell me I wouldn't go. I mean, this is this is. that sort of. Sort of a oh, is that giving you too much power? Well, no, but it assumes it's anything. Something different has happened. I mean, this is what has been nobody. This is. This this story and has been the story every day of, of. certainly the second administration, but also also the first administration. Right. But you just started this conversation by saying, you know, he may bomb a civilization out of existence tonight.

It has ram. So I know it. Is worth. It. Well, it is in this situation because I think this situation is. is the worst situation he has gotten himself into. So this is and I think we can go broader on it. On a, on a tipping point scale. This is, this is very much. very clearly, I think in this indisputably. the beginning of the end, he's not going to recover from this.

Right? He can't recover from this. And, and so he is this is like, oh my God. You know, and the danger is to take everyone with him. I mean, he does he. I mean, he's already he's going to take everyone around him with him. But. what does it do if were he to actually do. what he's threatening to do to Iran?

I'm just trying to think. I can't almost imagine the effect of the effect of this, because a, I don't think this is going to happen, and I may absolutely be proved wrong. It is Donald Trump. You don't know. He is a crazy man. So, so does restraint, you know, taco kick in some point today? I don't know, I expect that it will. But if it doesn't dot dot dot, I don't know.

Is he listening to Tucker. on something like this? How many times have we gone over this? He doesn't listen to anyone. I know, but he reads the room. The thing that he does do is read the room. And in the room. there are a lot of people saying this isn't a good idea, especially his. I mean, even Marjorie traitor Green, who's turned out to be a truth teller. about this and sent out. Yeah. No, no, I mean, he's saying he's lost his mind.

and you're all and complicit and everybody in the cabinet. And I wish I'd been in the cabinet, but it wasn't. So now I can say this stuff, is complicit in this craziness. This is all true except for the fact that he's in this. He still has to deal. with this circumstance, and he doesn't know how to deal with it. I mean, he literally doesn't know how. I mean, what do you what do you do? I mean, in normal Trump, business as usual, he would declare victory, but we're over that, that line.

No, that's not believable anymore. Anymore him declaring victory would immediately it would immediately. be clear that we have lost and and and the the Iranians had won. So so. and the. other side of that is that he can become more aggressive, but more aggression only seems to give. the Iranians more, more backbone, more,

more determination to use the leverage. they have against us and actually the world. Right. And it's actually a very biblical story. I mean, the irony of of Trump and hags. as clothing themselves in the Bible is that this feels a very biblical story. and that it's a giant power. that's trying to crush a little power or a smaller power, I should say. And the smaller power manages to sort of intelligence its way.

Well, actually, the greater irony is that. it has turned, I, I ran a regional, heretofore a regional power into a into. A bigger power. Yeah, yeah. So JD Vance has been dispatched to Hungary as we speak, where he seemed to be out of touch with what's actually been going on. And of course, a little ironic, too, that he's been dispatched to Hungary,

to support Orban, who doesn't look like he's going to win the election on some. But let's talk about that, because I think that's also a, a theme, a key, a key indicator at this, this moment in time. But tell this other, this, this story, because this is this is priceless. Well, I'm reading it from our swamp column, which we drop every Tuesday, and it's written by our excellent white House chief correspondent, David Gardner.

JD Vance flew overnight to Hungary to suck up to the country's right. wing leader and Trump buddy, Viktor Orban, but he clearly didn't check his messages. before going on stage for a press conference. in Budapest on Tuesday morning, moments after mentioning. he had a note from Steve Wilcox that he hadn't had the chance to read. And then, of course, because he's JD Vance and he can't resist. doing this, he goes, wouldn't you like to know what's in it? The guy is so unpleasant, so unpleasant.

A Reuters reporter has to tell him to check his messages, and he should have read it, because he didn't seem to know that the US. had launched a wave of strikes against Kharg Island. So dozens of military targets across the island were hit, and J.D. Vance didn't appear to know any of it. So he said, wouldn't you like to know what's in my tapes? Well, we know what's in your text. Kharg Island is being bombed, so he's there with his poor little wife. And we need to talk about. an excellent piece that we ran, by Neil Scovell, who pointed out.

that Usha Vance has started a podcast where she reads books to children. And actually, if you go down the piles of books that she has, then let me let. Me wait a minute. Let me. So this is a podcast for children. It's a podcast for children. Children listen to podcasts. Now who knows? I mean, sadly not many people. Get kind. Of. It's a kind of a kind of, here to. for the premise that children should not be on devices.

Very good point, very good point. But were they to be on devices, were they to be. they could listen to just podcasts. But it's actually a very subversive podcast. And of course, it's the she opens with Peter Rabbit Taylor, Peter. Rabbit by Beatrix Potter, female author who got rejected. by all the traditional male publishing houses, publishes. the books herself, makes tons of money and becomes an environmentalist. And of course, Little Peter Rabbit is a bit like an immigrant. who runs into the garden of big agriculture. Mr.

McGregor, the farmer, drives him out, steals his jacket, and, and then the next book is of a little I think it's a it's some sort of creature, a rabbit who is driven around by all the presidents going back. some time to Reagan, and Biden, but not Donald Trump. Donald Trump is the only president missing. So white House, I think we called the white House for for comment because this is actually usher. being rather subversive and nobody's noticed apart from you.

You're always calling the white House for comment. Have you ever, gotten a comment that is, anything. other than than, an insult or dismissal? No, but we still call them anyway. Yeah, well, I mean. I'm old fashioned, this kind of journalistic conceit. Yeah. Because we know, as it happens, as Caroline. Leavitt told a panel last week, that we're in her head, that she likes to hang out with her kids because then who cares what The. Daily Beast thinks?

I go back to Vance and in. Hungary because, I mean, I think that this is really interesting. So Viktor Orban has been taken up in this was true. in the first administration too, by the MAGA people. So he was the, the, the indicator. that the MAGA movement was spreading around the world. He was taken up first by Steve Bannon and then he was taken up by Tucker Carlson. And of course Orban has always been very close to to Putin.

And of course, Donald Trump has always had a, mysterious relationship with Vladimir Putin. But so, so this was this was the MAGA part of the MAGA world. world, the MAGA movement spreading. Sort of right. Branding around, around, around the world. So right now Orban is in trouble. Orban will probably lose.

So this could not come at a more, an a more dicey time for, for Trump and the MAGA movement. or a more depending upon how you look at more propitious time. This is again, the, the I think we are seeing. the writing of an end of this finally. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna now. from here on in insist that this is what we're this. Is the beginning of the end of Trumpism. Yeah.

And MAGA and also, when JD Vance landed, a slew of emails came out. from, well, between Putin and Orban. with Orban saying, you know, I want to help you in Ukraine. Tell me how I can do that. Suck, suck, suck, suck. And then it became clear that the, Hungarian. foreign minister had been taking information from, EU meetings and giving it.

straight to Sergei Lavrov in Russia, the Russian foreign minister, for, you know, to help the Russians in the war with Ukraine. So embarrassing for JD Vance. And it looks like Orban's going to lose. So I think that. Sent him there. I think deliberately I mean, it feels like he's home with JD into that. Yeah I don't know. I mean I think that they're they're kind of desperate. I mean this is other they're seeing the writing on the wall here. And it's interesting that they're looking at Orban like you might look at a.

you know, a Maga person in some state who needed support. I mean, this is if Orban goes down that's, that's a, that's a red flag for them. I mean, I don't know what they do. I don't know if they can ignore that. But it is one of those other things on the March. to the midterms and on the march to the end of Donald Trump. But it's significant that Donald Trump. hasn't gone for an unexpected last minute visit.

He sent JD Vance. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think that would be. I mean, where Donald Trump. to show up in Orban to lose and even Donald Trump is going. to have enough restraint not to not to set himself up like that. Right. But he's managed to set up his number two, is what I'm saying. Yes. And and of course, he has set himself up in, in, in this war, which again,

he just can't get out of he's, he's stuck. He it is going to bring him down. And, and let's just talk about how this helps China. and how it helps Russia. Well it clearly helps China. in almost in almost every way. Not not least of all it is, you know, I mean, China has over the last number of years, which the U.S. has not done, in which, in which, or, and or at least the U.S.

attempts have been repeatedly frustrated by Donald Trump. developed alternative a whole alternative energy, industry. So the impact of this loss of oil on China. is so much less than all other places in the world. It makes China it. I mean, their industry, their industry has been proved out.

Their industry now will be the end. Their, their investment in this industry will be the will make them. the leaders has made them the leaders in alternative. in the development of alternative alternative energy around the world. They are, they will reap the benefits of this. While Donald Trump is ripping out windmills and stopping. every kind of renewable energy he can do here. Extraordinary.

So let's talk about Steve Bannon okay. So so so so so Bannon is. the Supreme Court has taken steps which will allow Steve Bannon's. conviction on on contempt charges to be vacated. Now this is because the the the white House and the Justice Department. has basically said we don't want to pursue this, this, this anymore. We think this is this is he we think that this is wrong. We wouldn't have pursued it then.

And we want this to go away. And let's just remind people, he spent four months in jail, I think. Three. Months in Connecticut. Yeah. I mean, and this was a this was a contempt, he refused to appear before Congress in this was with relate with regard. to January 6th and what he knew about that he refused to appear. He was then then held in contempt. and that conviction was upheld, and he went to jail for three months.

Now, this is part of of the, I mean, Donald Trump's systematic effort. to forgive everybody who, who, who was implicated. and dinged in in January 6th. So, but the interesting thing about, about this is, is that the Trump Bannon relationship.

So Bannon, you, I mean Bannon you know Bannon was. was the the man who probably got Trump elected. He he took over the campaign in August 2016. He imposed discipline on it. I mean he had a vision of how to do this and was the guy who, who. I who should get the credit for Trump's victory,

which has always pissed Trump off. And then Bannon went into the white House and, pissed everybody off. And you know, and billed himself. as, you know, Donald Trump's brain, which. Which was well, then there was a famous cover of time. where Steve Bannon was sitting behind the resolute desk. looking as if he were in charge, which Donald Trump. I think that was the beginning of the end for Steve Bannon. Exactly. In the Trump White House.

Right. So Steve Bannon lasted until August 2017. And then and then he was he was out and he was a, a kind of. and let's let's point out that one of the, one of Steve Bannon's problems. was that he became my, a, significant source in my book, Fire and Fury and said, all kinds of terrible things. about Donald Trump and everyone in his family. So there has. always been a amount of tension between them.

So the interesting thing is, what did Bannon have to do? What was the negotiation to get Donald Trump and the Trump. White House to, to support him. in getting this conviction thrown out? It wasn't I can guarantee it wasn't free. So and I, I suspect that it was.

that Steve made a promise to go easy on the war. Oh interesting. Because he's anti war anti forever. And forever wars. He's he's a, you know, a central. MAGA voice continues to be a central MAGA voice. So that is my theory. So when you say it wasn't free, you're not talking about. the regular pardons economy where you can pay to get out of jail. And people have done frequently.

Yeah. No. This this is literally this is much more valuable. Okay. That is interesting. Exactly. And you always made the point when he came out of jail. and we sent a reporter up there to to watch him come out, that Trump hadn't organized. This was not one of those scenarios where you get picked up in a flash car. and brought to the white House, or someone from the white House meets you. He was just left on his own. Yeah. I mean, Trump doesn't like Bannon. Can't stand them.

Actually, he's an irritant. Has always been an irritant to Trump. You know I mean he's clearly brags I mean I mean. I mean Steve brags about how much smarter than of course he's smarter. And just as a, as a, you know, I have, I am not now speaking to Steve, but have had a long relationship with him, and I've always thought that he was, incredibly entertaining, insightful.

and, and of course, utterly opportunistic, but, Well, you sort of outmaneuvered him, actually. I mean, interestingly, you know, because he brought you on board. into the white House, you sat there for seven months. You then produced the first book, which everybody says, this can't possibly be true. Michael Wolff is exaggerating. And in fact, if anything, you were under under. playing what chaos it was, but in fact, you actually outplayed Bannon.

Or perhaps he didn't understand as a source. Oh, no, I think I think that he, that he understood that he was. we were in a symbiotic relationship. You were both in a chokehold. Yes. So he wanted to kill Donald Trump. And I wanted. To store Trump. No, I didn't want to kill him. I just wanted, I wanted, I wanted the story. So he was willing to give me the story because, because at that point he so hated Donald Trump.

I mean, that's an interesting example of, of of. of someone who actually. actually was willing to talk about the pain. of working for Donald Trump, of of how much Donald Trump. made everyone around him makes everyone around him suffer. So the other person that you use to get the story. and now you're telling the. story on your Substack, is Jeffrey Epstein much more controversial figure.

even than Steve Bannon, which is hard to be, and. Low. Bannon and Epstein then became a duo. Well, because you introduce them, but. in this week's. episode, which I read with great interest. This is just as that. And so every I am writing the, the Epstein story as I know it in, in episodic, on an episodic basis, in installments.

every week, which is, on Substack. So this is a kind of a 19th century novel. Form, right? It's a sort of pamphlet. that drops every, every Monday, and it has a cliffhanger to it. And in this particular one, you bring together. what I think is fair to say, the most diabolical people in New York, without quite understanding what you're doing at the time. So you're trying to bring together a consortium to buy New York magazine.

You call. More? Well, I was New York magazine, where we both worked at at at. the time was put on the was put up for sale. Was owned by a private equity group who had no idea what it was doing. And, was put up for sale in 2003. And, you know, when magazines are put up, that's always a dicey moment. of what's going to happen. They're usually nothing good. So I was and I loved working for New York magazine.

Best job I ever had. So I called the one I knew, sort of one person in New York who, who had, millions to spare. And I, and loved the title of being publisher. A man by the name of of of, Mortimer Zuckerman, and, who then owned the, the Daily News. And before that, he had owned the Atlantic Monthly. But he was a guy really in the real estate business. Anyway, I called I called him and said, because we, we knew each other and we were kind of friendly.

And I said, would you be interested? And, and then he sort of got excited about it, but also wanted to do it with others because it's the magazine business. And even even a billionaire knows not to buy a magazine. Well, I. Think it's probably fair to say New York magazine was losing money, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well it was, yes. It had lost money for some years. Yes. As most magazines were. But at any rate, he said so I called him.

and he said, okay, well, we got to get other people. And he said, do you know this guy Jeffrey Epstein? Who I, I had, known in the, the two previous episodes on the subs on Substack will explain, explain the background of how I knew I knew Epstein and then. And then it was after Epstein came in 10 million. I'll put in 10 million. And then I got the call, and it was actually Epstein who called me.

and said, just. I just spoke to Mort, and he's going to bring in, Harvey Weinstein to this deal. So you literally have Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey. Weinstein as your, you know, hopeful benefactors. Yes. No, no. And then more and then this other guy, Nelson Peltz, who's, a rapacious raider, and whose. Daughter, I think is married to Brooklyn Beckham,

Nicola Peltz, Rango, Brooklyn Beckham, who no longer speaks to Victoria or David. So it's a lovely, lovely group of people. But also also we should point out, you know, we were there at the same. at the same time and it was your magazine too. So you then had to go work for the other people who then came in. But anyway. Well, that was brutal. Sustained. So explain what happened though, because in the story, for those of you. who haven't read the Substack, there's a good sort of drama moment in the story. So I am we there was a.

this this was going on and these guys more, Jeffrey Harvey. Yeah. Who, whoever, you know, kept saying, oh, yeah. And I kept saying, hey, I'm hearing other people are, you know, are trying to buy this man. No, no, no, no, don't worry about anything. And can I just mention, actually, because I've now remembered. another character in the list that every Monday, Keith Kelly, then the reporter for the new York Post, would be writing updates.

He was a very good media reporter. Everybody in the media read him, and he was writing. weekly updates, if not more than that, about what was happening with your bet. And I remember thinking, I don't know who these people are, but I hope they win. because I want Michael to stay at New York Magazine anyway. Continue. Yeah. No no no no, this was a very hot. This was this was everywhere. I mean, the New York David Carr and The New York Times, who was then. their media reporter, covering this constantly. I mean, there was a time now, quite some time ago.

when what happened in the magazine business was a very hot topic, right. There was a time hard to believe that time has gone, but but also, wasn't there a moment when Harvey Weinstein. finds out that you're involved and says to Mort Zuckerman, you have to get rid of Michael Wolff? Yeah. No. Epstein calls me and says, oh, yeah, Harvey's Harvey. Harvey doesn't like you. He wants you fired. And then he says, and he says, what? Did you write? Something bad about him. And I said,

I'm wrong. I said, everybody writes the bad things about Harvey. And, and then Epstein said, well, he's an animal. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of him. Epstein says about Harvey Weinstein, he's an animal. Well, it's hard not to. For anyone to know one but one, two. But anyway, the the the denouement of of this is that, we there's a New York Magazine awards. luncheon, which, you were at you were, I think you were the main organizer.

I was the organizer, yes. Last time I was. Filled with it, filled with the great and the good. But it was the first time they'd done it. And I felt massively under pressure to pull in as many celebrities. as I possibly could. And actually, we had a very good line up of people. We had Meryl Streep and we had Kevin Kline, who I think gave Merrill an award, but it's possible she gave him an award. We had Caroline Kennedy, who'd just been put in as head. of some partnership at the New York schools.

She was supposed to raise, resources for it. It was actually a very glamorous group. But then I was sitting between and this was. discordant to say the least. I was sitting between Hillary Clinton. And Roger Ailes, the. then the head of Fox News. Who I don't think had been invited, Roger Ailes, I think you was he was invited. Yeah. And I had to reorganize the seating. Yeah. Everybody, because you were like, I'm bringing Roger Ailes. Anyway, I was there between between these two.

who are actually rather rather cordial to each other. But anyway, sitting between his two, my phone rings and it's Jeffrey Epstein, and, and he says, Bruce Wasserstein. Bruce Wasserstein is another financier, raised. Five times, married. I think. And, so he said, Bruce Wasserstein has bettered our bid. We're done.

I, I said, what do you mean? What do you mean, what are we going to do? And he says, and, Epstein said, what do you mean, what we're going to do? We're done. Let me get back to you. I got Clinton here. So he had Bill Clinton. Yes. He probably knew that Hillary was at a luncheon. He had a couple of hours to play with. Yes. So yeah. So and that was, that was. that was it. There you go. Okay. Well where would we be now.

Oh my goodness me am I okay. You would have been in business with them. It's probably best I know you. Know I know. It's so much better. They never I. I felt immediately I mean I felt both this that that moment. in which you can feel both disappointment and utter relief. And I remember sitting you next to Julianne Moore. at this lunch and then you replaced with Roger Ailes. Yeah, I had to get out, and. I was like, who would replace Julianne Moore? I couldn't. In what world would you replace the heavenly Julianne Moore with Roger Ailes?

Oh, no. Roger Ailes is, was, was was great and a great talker and incredibly. funny and and. I'm and all kinds of bad things, but also smart. Julianne Moore was just not not she was not interested in me. And she's a movie star. She's a movie star. I've always liked Julianne Moore. I think she's a very good actress. And I've always. I've sat next to at lunches and actually always found. a very lively and entertaining. So there you go.

So you left New York Magazine, you went to Vanity Fair? Yeah. And I left New York magazine, too. That was a bit of a trip down memory lane for us, which was kind of fun. But this is how it but how we we met. We sort of begin at at New York magazine. Yeah. Well, you got me the job. I got you the job. Sent me to come and work at New York Magazine, and I'm very glad I did. And it was enormous fun. And and magazines have disappeared.

I've never seen an industry disappear faster than the magazine business. I mean, the music business reinvented itself. Television reinvented itself. Magazines have just disappeared. Know? I mean, I spent my entire career in the magazine business, and then for it to, poof, gone. Well, now, now you're on Substack. and people can read this episodic story. No. Well, it's interesting to go down all of the people on Substack, everyone I've ever known in the magazine business. It's all on Substack. Well, I noticed you were number.

number one on Substack, so you must be doing something right. I'm trying to think what that is. I guess you. Just. Well, I think you're writing about Epstein, and people want to understand the actual truth of, well, you know. I'm an Epstein, and I'm writing about Trump. I mean, these are these are the I mean, how many subjects are there? Frankly, not too many, right? I mean, we're. I mean, the entire world has become obviously reshaped by Donald Trump. Not not just by his his mendacious ness,

but by his command of such attention still, I mean still. And we go back to this of all these threats against against Iran. and what he's going to do and, he's going to end civilization as they know it. I mean, this is all and let us never forget about. putting the attention back on him. Yeah, well, if he gets prosecuted for war crimes, at least they've got lots of evidence of what he was planning to do.

It's not like he can say he didn't mean it. And and to be well prosecuted. I wonder how that happens. Well, that's for another time, you know. Well, that's for the Democrats to win the midterms, you know. Well, they still can't prosecute him for war crimes if they win the no. But let's take it. Well, my my point is let's take it one step at a time. Before we go from here straight to The Hague, if you want updates on Michael Wolff Substack, you can click on the QR code.

And magically, he will come to life. Are you reading it? You should be reading it. like Dickens used to do that he used to go and read his his things. Why aren't you reading them? You should. I read that here? Maybe we could. We could. Every, Every inside Trump's Head. episode could now become a reading of. No, you read it on Substack, read it on Substack. You should be reading it like Dickens. Did you could even apply a beard and try.

So let's let's, Okay. You know, I just read, my Murdoch book. So my Murdoch book, which is now ten years old, but, you know, since Murdoch. Murdoch Books, which won. The first Murdoch book and, since he's going to die. any minute, make a. Sequel. He's just 95th birth. Well, and his mother lived to 100. And what, to 303? So he could have. He's got good genes.

Yeah. No, no, nobody has good genes to take them past 95. He's he's already on borrowed time when that ends. Could be net right this very minute. But anyway. Ron and I don't get into, Anyway, I read this. because I think the publisher now expects that. that with the, with the passing, with the, the, the coming death of Rupert.

Murdoch, people will want to hear Michael Wolff, his life story, you. Know, and I kind of I kind of, Have you ever done this? Read a book? I have. It's very enjoyable, except I read my book. and I was like, this is terribly badly written. I can't believe I did this. And I was extemporaneous, and. I had the exact opposite. Feeling, of course, that your book was brilliant. My God. Yeah, but I will say that at the end of my reading, my book called. Love Rules about how to find real relationship in a digital world, the engineer looked up and she said, this book has helped me enormously.

And then she. unfolded her romantic life. and we discussed it, and she felt that the book had been very helpful. So there you go. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast and what else. up. Thanks to our incredible team. Such an incredible. Team. They are an incredible team. Devin, Rachel, Ryan, Heather.

And Neil will be back on Thursday and who knows. if Iran will still be standing okay.