Now Trump is Really Scared By Epstein: Michael Wolff | The Daily Beast Podcast

They were going to expose Epstein with no understanding that. if they expose Epstein, it is very likely they are going to expose Donald Trump. So therefore, they made a mistake by announcing. that they were going to do this. And Trump got pissed at them for this. Then they tried to cover over their mistake by saying, oh no, there's nothing here. Pay no attention. Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Hugh Daugherty, I'm executive editor of the Daily Beast.

And I mean for Joanna, who's taking a well-deserved vacation. But in Donald Trump's America, there is no vacation from the news. And especially right now with Donald Trump's own base. being on fire about the Jeffrey Epstein files and the fallout from what. some of them are calling a massive cover up there just to catch you back up. Back in February, Trump's attorney general, Pam Bondi, had this to say. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.

Well, that really happened. It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed, because that was done at the directive of the president from all of these agencies. But no, she and the FBI leaders who Trump himself appointed have produced. a memo that says effectively, nothing to see here. There are no Epstein files to be released.

There was no client list, a phrase that people have been hyping in the MAGA. world for years, and nobody else is going to be charged. So who better to talk about this than Michael Wolff? He's the Daily Beast podcast resident expert on everything about Trump. As. the author of four bestselling biographies of the 45th and 47th president. And Epstein himself asked Michael to be his biographer. Michael, welcome.

I'm just going to start by saying, what on earth is going on? Can Trump seriously be at war with his own base? Well, I think for one, it's a truly he's at war. with the, with his own Justice Department. I'm not sure I would call it war, but he is pretty pissed off at them. This is a problem of their own making. You know, and and I think. I think that Trump has, Trump has been determined to ignore.

the subject of Epstein for years and years and years. I mean, literally, he seems to put his fingers in his ears. and go, you know, he doesn't want to hear about it. Why doesn't he want to hear about it? Because he is vulnerable. I mean, these were very simply very close friends, Epstein and Trump for more than ten years. I mean, it may be that that they were, this is the.

the longest lasting, most serious relationship in each of their lives. You know, they were. close, close, close friends. And and that because of what. ultimately happened to Jeffrey Epstein and what ultimately he became. and what ultimately he became a symbol of is,

is, you know, is very is a very precarious thing. to be Jeffrey Epstein's closest friend, which Donald Trump is. So he wants to ignore this. He wants this to say to just just push this away. Epstein. Yeah. Yeah, I may have passed them once or twice. But these MAGA people. who are all a little, choose choose choose your word. Not like you or, you, nor I, nor.

anyone else who isn't, isn't involved in the in the in the, isn't determined. to sell a position which they are determined to do. The elites are corrupt. The elites are pedophiles. I don't, you know, go on and on. It is. It is deep conspiracy thinking. And I think that that Trump was just happy to ignore this.

It didn't really touch him. Just let it go. Let it go on. Let it go away. If this if this amuses the MAGA bunch, he's great. But suddenly it came into his. It came. It has come very close to him because these same MAGA promoters. are now running the Justice Department, and they have said this up. They were going to expose Epstein without.

without with no understanding that if they expose Epstein, it is very likely they are going to expose Donald Trump. So therefore, they made a mistake by announcing. that they were going to do this. And Trump got pissed at them for this. Then they tried to cover over their mistake by saying, oh no, there's nothing here. Pay no attention. And now we are where we are with this. So what are you hearing about what Trump himself is saying about this?

He's obviously, as you say, in a bind. Well, he says that he's been saying it out loud. You know, and he's been saying there's nothing. Now, why are people talking about this? This is, I mean, and that's. So his mood is pure denial. Why are people talking about Epstein? There's nothing there. I'm not a part of this. This happened a long time ago. And so, again, denial. Denial, denial.

And, you know, Trump is very good at that. And so he is figuring. that he will browbeat this subject into irrelevance. And as somebody who's watched him for so long, do you believe he's really got the power to do that over a movement. that he himself in some ways created, but. Well, I yes, I mean, he's extraordinarily good at good at this. I mean, it is one of his talents, secret talents. How does he do it?

How does he get away with with everything? So I would actually be surprised if this is the thing. that finally hoists him. Although it would be a poetic justice of honor on a grand scale. Of course. One thing I think I wanted to we all want to talk about. is this extraordinary 399. word screed that Trump delivered on Saturday.

night on Truth Social, asking what's going on with my boys? And in some cases, gals, they're all going after Attorney General Pam. Bondi, who's doing a fantastic job, and it goes on like that. It's not the sort of act of will that he is trying to use in private as well. Is that how he speaks about this? Yeah. No, no, of course you know Trump. Trump speaks in public, mostly as he speaks in private. And this is what he's he's doing. I mean, he's not going to defend himself.

And he is not going to explain himself. He's going to treat the problem as something. that that he can, he can stamp out. How does this fit into Iran? Raised this, repeatedly after their fall out. It's that part of Trump's psyche here that this is just. coming from his enemies, that he can't see it as something. Although, of. Course, I mean, Trump regards that it anything anything. negative is always coming from his enemies,

even if this is very clearly coming from his supporters. But pay no attention. It's coming from me. It's coming from my enemies. Yes. And another aspect of this, of course, is Steve Bannon. And the last time you were on the show with Joanna, you talked about, Bannon's, slightly contentious, really, or contended relationship with Epstein. Bannon came into interview Epstein.

and and one telling it was for media training. Okay. Well no no, no. Let me I want to having been there that telling is Bannon's telling. It's a Bannon's baloney. He is trying to cover that. It has no truth in anything. He was there I know he was there I was there. I heard it all I have it on tape actually. He was there to prep Steve Bannon for. for a hypothetical television.

interview, ideally on, on 60 minutes, you know, and I, in fact, wrote about this at some length in a chapter in my book, two famous, spelling out detail bar detail. line of dialog by line of dialog. So this is this is their this is public. And I invite anyone to, to, to take a look at it. It's actually quite a, quite a snapshot of what,

what went on in, in Jeffrey Epstein's house. But the Bannon thing in the Bannon, I think you might have said it was a contentious relationship. I contended that Bannon has put forward a version. Absolutely. Claiming that he was only there in his telling to expose Epstein. Yeah. Okay. That's totally wrong. Completely. And at any rate, they were they were very close friends.

Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon. They met in the fall of 2017. They bonded over their, over, over the fact that each of them. had had this, this, this deep and confounding and confusing, and, and mind boggling, relationship. with Donald Trump. And, and they spent an enormous amount of time together and,

and, and came to really, really be close friends. So this is just another kind of. a kind of, mind boggling dimension of this that Steve. Bannon has now become an Epstein conspiracy. theory person. You know, and again, this is just. this is this is in, in, in the Trumpian world. that that that all truth, all reality can be denied.

But it can't be that denied because, as I say, I was there, I saw it, and, and, and Steve and Jeffrey were, we're we're we're we're mates, you know, and they had. they had projects together and, and we're. and we're envisioning a future together when, when Epstein was arrested.

And with Trump, one of the things that people get fascinated by. is that there is this world around him. And some of those people appear almost to be like enemies to him, like. Bannon is now saying, oh, it's going to cost. Trump 10% of his base, that MAGA is going to turn against Trump. But is this just an instance of Trump wants to keep his enemies close? He wants everybody who might be a danger on his side, even if they're feuding. Well, I think it's just they're they're caught in this sudden,

sudden predicament, you know, you you've, I mean, many of these many of these guys have have, have, have. built their reputations and careers. on, on, on these MAGA myths, including Epstein. But at the same time, they've built their reputations. and careers on their devotion to Donald Trump. So they're all they're all now caught in a in.

between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Now, Bannon's game, Bannon's asset base. now is less Donald Trump and more MAGA. So he is just siding with the MAGA guys. And and again, I don't know how he can do this. because it's it's it's transpose like clear that he. that Steve Bannon is a. is an Jeffrey Epstein intimate.

But you know, some, some, some of this stuff is just, is just beyond logic. Even around Trump, we've seen all these people, we've seen people that are so influential that Tucker Carlson like, like Charlie Kirk, everybody seems to be caught up in this. What's the end game? How does Trump actually force this into a new episode in the Trump? Sure. Well, I you know, I mean, he he changes he changes the subject. I mean, that's what he has always done.

And I'm sure right now he's, he's grappling with. with what's the what's what's the next headline. which will, which will marginalize this headline. He clearly has not yet, however, found it. One of the other headlines that or one of the other fascinating characters. And all of this, of course, is Glenn Maxwell. And people will probably remember that when Glenn was finally arrested. after year on the run, Trump rather bizarrely said he wished her well.

How deep her closer relationship did they have? What was there a connection? Yeah. I mean, and also, you know, I know and I have reported in, in, in, in one of my books, it's always at this point hard to, it's. hard to remember which one, but I think my book landslide. that he discussed or it came up in conversation that he,

whether or not he should pardon. Glenn Maxwell. No, I, I've said this before, and I've known. and I've seen headlines that he's had, which have billed this as high level discussions about whether he should pardon. Dylan and in, in, in, in fact, it was just a passing remark. So, just to clarify that, but yeah. Yeah, you know, I mean, he knew he knew Glenn,

you know, back when he was but a close friend of. of of Epstein's. And Glenn was around, you know, and she was a, you know, she was just part of Epstein's social grease, and, but, yeah, you know, and, and often with Epstein. as his kind of wingman at a lot of events.

And Trump clearly knew her. Now, the thing about Glenn is that she has not been on the Epstein's scene. since 2004, 2005, when his first set of legal problems began. So, with whether. whether Trump saw her after that. And, and that was the point at which Trump's relationship with Epstein broke down. So I don't really know and have no insight.

in what his relationship with Glenn would have been after that. How big a moment is this for Trump? Is this one of those moments that is going to be defining, or do you think he can reset. All moments for Trump? Are big moments. The the remarkable thing. about all of these big moments is how quickly we forget them. So, so the question, will this be Will Jeffrey Epstein somehow.

stay around Donald Trump's neck? Will Jeffrey Epstein somehow cause. him real damage? You know, I don't know that, ask me in a couple of weeks. and if it's still hanging around, then and then we'll say, man. Well, I'm sure Joanna will be poised. to ask that question in a couple of weeks time. How, what what goes on inside Trump and around his circle. when he's in this situation where he's trying to come up with a new idea?

Does he ask people for ideas? Does he? Well, I you know, he doesn't ask, you know, he tests things out on people. What about, you know, what about that idea? We should take over Canada. Maybe we should do that right now. What about what about what about. And then everybody says, well, yeah, you know, taking over Canada. Always, always a good fallback. So I it's it's it's that kind of that's kind of thing.

And he, he will either invent something. or something will, some, some advantageous moment will occur. I mean, this is what he's, he's looking for, but he is clearly thinking about how do I change the subject. One of the aspects that's come back again and again and again, and this is the connection between Epstein and Bill Clinton. And the first thing that Donald Trump posted on what was then.

Twitter after Epstein died in prison was a link to the Clinton the. the bogus claims that the Clintons had, killed many people. And I'm just is this something where Trump's just going to go back. go back to the whale? Is he going to be back? He was back blaming the Clintons on Friday. On Saturday night he blamed Obama. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean he always goes back to the back to the well. So yeah, he'll try that and see how that that goes, you know.

But that's just one of those, those, those profound ironies. Yes. Jeffrey Epstein had a close relationship with Bill Clinton for a couple of years. Absolutely. But he had a closer relationship with Donald Trump for far longer. How do you feel Trump has been able to slough off that that closeness? I it's a totally mystery to me.

I mean, you know, I think it's partly partly. the media in general has given him a pass. And there may be something if I had to deconstruct this, that Epstein has been so demonized by the media. that the idea of. connecting him to the president of the United States. somehow feels. I don't know, disrespectful,

I don't know, it's it's, it's it's. it remains an incredible mystery to me. Is this a moment where Trump might be scared that he is going to be connected? Yeah. I mean, I think he's very he's he's yeah, I think he's been. he's been scared for many, many years. When Steve Bannon met Jeffrey Epstein the first time, the first words. that Bannon said to Epstein were, you were the only person I was afraid.

of during the campaign in in the 2016 campaign. What does that tell people who are watching Trump know that. how should if you were a Democrat, is this an attack that is worth making. if you are a Trump ally, is this something to try to bury? How how are people going to how are people going to parse this. knowing, knowing that there is some some degree of fear? What what can anybody lay this on Trump? Or is it down to his own reaction? Well, yeah.

I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, I think I think it can be laid, laid on Trump. I think it's, it's it's glaring. It could not be more glaring. Again, hiding in plain sight. Does will he be able to shake. this off as he is shaking off so much? Yeah. You know, probably I mean, but but, but, who knows? This is this is this is pretty vivid and pretty specific.

These guys were the best of friends for a very long time. They are each formative in the other's. Life and isn't perhaps the person that is going to drive this home. He's been desperately trying to, to to push Epstein on, on his post on his ex platform. But this is he still have juice and sides to try to force that among the MAGA base. Well, I don't know if he has juice in in inside.

I don't know what inside is, you know, I mean, the other thing, and the other confusing thing is that the MAGA people. have always been against elan. Therefore, are they now allied with with with with Elon? That's confusing to me. Another another part of the confusion in in. in all this on who's doing what to whom and for what reason. Michael. Nobody could have more expertise in this subject. I've got one last question.

What is your prediction for what happens next? You know, I've given up predicting Trump a long time ago. Well, I know you will be back with us. whenever, whatever happens next. It's been, fascinating insight. into what has been possibly. the first major civil war to manage to last over a weekend. And we were waiting with bated breath for the next development. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. See you soon.

There we have it. A scared Trump, a crisis in his own party. A civil war with his base. Can he escape? Is he going to be free with one bound? Or is this an albatross around his neck? We are going to be following every bit of the action at the Daily beast.com. Please subscribe and we are going to be back later. this week with another person who has had an extraordinary encounter. with Jeffrey Epstein, Tina Brown,

the founder of The Daily Beast, the legendary magazine editor. She is going to be speaking about the creepy moment. that Jeffrey Epstein turned up in her office. Once again, thank you for subscribing. Hit the subscribe button. Share this with your friends. Share this with your enemies. And remember, as Joanna always says, beast. This podcast was produced by Devin Roger Reno and often Awesome and. edited by Jesse Millward.