LIVE w/ Rye Barcott: I Know the Secret of Healing Trump's Divided America

Right, Barcott. I am so excited to be. able to talk to you and to talk to. people about your excellent new book, Courage Can Save the US. We met at. Christmas when you were telling me about. your organization that you co-founded. You are a Marine. Uh you co-founded uh you're an. entrepreneur, but you also co-founded an. organization called With Honor, which. works with the military across or work.

works with people who've been in the. military, who've been in service, and. works across. um both parties. It's no non-partisan. organization. And in this book in. particular, you focus on courage. Why is courage in short supply right. now? What Why can't we really see any. particularly across the Republican. Party? >> Yeah, you know, I wrote this book. I. started about 3 years ago, and I wrote. it principally for students. I think.

there are a lot of students in the. United States that are just struggling. with a sense of purpose. And. the way that I think about courage, sort. of go back to like the the ancients of. uh which was an ancient value. But. courage is at its core about service. So, I define it as uh as as taking a. risk in the service of something larger. than yourself. >> Mhm. >> Marcus Aurelius called it the common. good. It can be your country. It can be. your community. It can be your family.

But it's serving something other than. yourself. >> [laughter]. >> And that is an idea we're spreading. because when you ser- serve something. larger than yourself, you uh you find. purpose and you find meaning. And so, what what I've tried to do with this. book is uh write a profile of. individuals that actually crosses this. chasm that we face as a country across. our our political divides. So, five. Republicans, five Democrats. They don't.

always serve with courage, but they. found courage. first through their upbringing. I talk. about their parents, their upbringing. We're going to have an awesome event to. kick off the book at the 92nd Street Y. with two of them and their parents, Governors Mikie Sherrill and. Wes Moore next Tuesday on June 9th. That's open to the public. Representative Don Bacon will also also. join us. But their parents are going to. be there. And so, what I try to do is really show that.

courage, the. serving something, taking risks, putting. yourself at risk, whether that's. physical or moral, in the something in the service. something larger than yourself, is really what the country needs and. it's what we need in in in particular. So, why is it in short supply and is it. in short supply? Well, what I. believe is that and we have really. interesting poll coming out with Gallup, the organization that I Lead With Honor. polled Americans and asked them what. they think about courage. And it's. interesting because many Americans want.

to see more courage, but believe that it. has diminished. precipitously, particularly over the. last couple of generations. And they also feel like there. There's like an intimidation that normal. Americans feel with having relationships. across party lines themselves. You know, just you know, think about your you. know, your dinner conversations or. something like that. So, our politics is like just entrenched. this um.

this kind of tribal behavior and our. obviously our media environment. etc. You know, encourages it. But then. once individuals stand up and take a. courageous stand, especially political. courage, they are often or they can be punished. for it. And you can see a number of. examples of this, particularly. in the last few weeks with. some Republican members in this case. that broke with. President Trump on various different. issues and then lost their primary.

elections. Some of which are in safe. Republican districts. One of the individuals that's profiled. in this book is a fellow from Texas who. was an ABC alum lost his primary race in. a in a safe district. >> So, I mean there's so much to unpack there. Is courage in short supply? Let's just take it as a macro. from the macro point of view to start. off with because. you know, is it possible that this is a.

sort of knock-on from social media that. everybody's supposed to be their own. brand now that we think less as a. collective and more. more as individuals. And certainly you. mentioned that you had started this book. for kids at school, young people, people. in college because they were struggling. to find purpose. We've heard about the. mental health crisis with young people. And certainly it. it's difficult. It's one of those things. that feels very difficult to actually.

tangibly know if people feel less. connected to others. But certainly. it does feel as if social media may have. contributed to that. What do you think? >> Yeah, I I think it is a huge driver of. our our polarization. You know, that. scholars out here talk about two fight. types of polarization, ideological. polarization. So, we're actually just. opposed to each other on the issues. And. there's certainly a large degree of.

that. But then another type that is I. think the real driver of many of our. problems and part of the reason why I. put a there's a little crack in the U. It's not a complete break, but there's a. crack in the U on the book. >> Yep. >> Yep. Rodrigo Corral, our designer, designed. that beautiful image. But it's a crack. And why is it a crack? I believe ties to. this affective polarization, which is a. fancy word for saying, we treat each other like. enemies, you know? It's like the hate, it's not the ideas necessarily, it's.

seeing the other as as as an enemy. And there's a there's a survey that came. out with just this staggering stat on. this that, um, you know, about 40% of Americans are not. affiliated with a political party. officially. You know, many vote along. party lines, but but independents are. are are the largest. But, among the. registered Republicans and registered. Democrats, according to this one survey, 80% on both sides view the other as the.

enemy. 80%. >> Right. 80 80%. >> Yeah. And and so, it is really difficult. when that's your starting point, right? Because there's an it's impossible to. like build trust with someone if you. immediately. >> [laughter]. >> view them view them as the enemy. So, what we have tried to do as an. organization, and hopefully this this. book will help with that. All the author. proceeds are going to With Honor, is. maintain a group of individuals who have. served. They've served their country in.

uniform. Not all are military. There's. one. one of the people that I profiled is an. ex- former FBI agent. But, they served. They they they gave part of their lives, their best years to the country. And. they have agreed to stay. bipartisan insofar as that they will. still talk to each other and have trust. They might not agree on much. They often. don't vote along the same ways. But, they will still get in an into a room. and say to each other, we can have a. serious discussion about, you know, this.

topic, Ukraine, you know, pick a pick a. national security. item and not worry about somebody. coming, you know, 5 minutes after they. leave the room and blasting them on. Twitter for some comment that was. supposed to be a private comment. Um. >> So, you you make the point in the book, or actually Doris Kearns Goodwin makes. the point, actually I think in a blurb. for the book that 2/3 of the presidents. that America has had um have worn the. uniform, have served. Donald Trump.

famously hasn't served. In fact, he got. out of going to Vietnam five times uh by. claiming that he had bone spurs. Uh or. at least uh you know, he he managed to. avoid going, and he said that his. personal Vietnam was actually night. clubbing in New York and avoiding. getting uh sexually transmitted disease. He I think he said that to Howard Stern. Um. so. if you are a person of courage like the.

10 people that you profile in your book, how hard is it to find ways of. expressing that courage when the leader. of your Congress is. is a man who says things like that, who. says his personal Vietnam was dodging. diseases in New York nightlife, who. makes a sort of you know, who basically. sort of celebrates not being in service,

never having really been in service, and. actually talks about being president as. an opportunity for him to get something. back. That, you know, especially the. first time he felt he didn't make enough. from it, and now he's trying to help. himself to a $1.8 billion slush fund. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there were there. there are a number of folks that are in. the book that are Republicans that have. kind of been. outspoken, but there are not that many, right? That that have been outspoken on. specific issues. Don Bacon is, you know, sort of one of them. And it becomes a.

you know, for them I think I think the the. individuals when when see a comment that. is offensive, and of course, there's a. whole litany of comments, right? I mean, this is. one of the things we need to do is just. treat each other better, right? >> [laughter]. >> As a country. And when you hear certain. things that are offensive, it just it. just flies in the face of of this. But. many folks are will sit there and say, "Well, I'm still trying to serve and. make decisions on something. I can't. fight every battle, you know, you know, that's that's kind of the the logic that.

goes through it the heads." I think it's. really important to be able to point to. individuals that will stand at certain. moments and say, "Listen, this is a. bridge. This is a certain litmus test.". Um Don Bacon in particular speaks about. when to take out your sword, and you. can't fall on every on every sword, but. pick the battles. For him, Ukraine was. one of those such issues. So, I also. think, you know, going back on Vietnam, that was um.

that was also a theme that that ties. throughout this book. Uh the Vietnam War. uh left many folks uh or or many of the. folks that are in the book were impacted. by either their parents or their or. mentors that shaped their their service. That was a time of incredible division. as well within the country. >> Mhm. >> We We We managed through it, you know, at at a at a certain point we're going. to need to manage through like rebuild. what we and and and actually find a. better union, and we hope that we'll be.

a part of that. um. you know, in the years ahead. >> So, one that people say now about going. into politics is who would go into. politics? What a nightmare. Your family. are dragged all over social media, you're attacked, people make things up, nobody knows what's true, what's not. true about you. Uh. former Well, I know you once a Marine, always a Marine. You should never say. someone is former Marine. Glenn Platner. up in in Maine is currently the focus of.

a lot of attention right now. Uh he's an. oyster fisherman. He decided to run. against uh the chosen candidate, the. establishment candidate for the. Democrats, Janet Mills, governor of. Maine, a popular governor who. nevertheless would be 80 by the time she. got into the Senate. And there is. genuinely an opportunity to unseat the. Republican Susan Collins. uh up in Maine given the unpopularity of. the Republican Party right now, at least. according to the polls. So, Graham. partner has been criticized for various.

things he said in Reddit post before he. ever decided to run. He's been. criticized for having uh what turned out. to be a a. skull and crossbones that he'd had. tattooed on him, which many people felt. was a a Nazi symbol. Now, most recently, texts that he sent to women that are. apparently sexually explicit have have. um. surfaced in the public eye. I In fact, I. think via his wife who wanted to get. these out there so that they at least.

knew, I guess, what they were dealing. with in terms of opposition research. Um. can you talk a little bit about the. courage of someone to run in this. current climate? >> Yeah, absolutely. And And you know, he. is one of um over 700 veterans. I think. we're Ours is the only organization that. tracks that's across the country that. run for Congress and have done so since. 2018 since we founded the the. organization. And the numbers are up by. both parties by over 20%. We'll put out.

the the actual numbers next week with. the with the book launch. But So, there. are a lot of individuals that are still. raising their hand. Why are they doing. it? I think most are well-intentioned, especially those that have worn the the. the uniform. They're not all necessarily. part of the solution. Our process is. that you got to commit to serve with. integrity, civility, and the courage to. still have some relationships that can. cross this this tribal divide. Not all. sign up for it. Uh, we end up supporting. about about 10% of overall of the vets.

in the this cycle that that will run. And we have a coalition of about 50 uh, across the country. Um, so why does. somebody sign up for it? What we look. for with when when we vet candidates and. help recruit them is one, do they have a clear-eyed view about. just how brutal this job is? >> [laughter]. >> Right. >> Because it is really service. You know, sometimes um, folks will say, "Oh, well, did he just serve He or she. just serve in the military to pad their. resume to run for office?".

Uh, >> [sighs]. >> maybe maybe uh, that was once something. that happened. But running for office is. um, just a uh, it's it's it's rough. sledding. So we look for people that. have a viewpoint of this is going to be. a hardship tour. Um, many uh, candidates. um, such as Jared Golden, who's also in. the book and is a a Marine up in Maine, um, decide that they're not going to do. it they're not going to do it for a. career. They're advocates of uh, ideas. like term limits that you come in, you. run really hard at this and he's he's.

decided not to to run for uh, re-election himself. Um, but you need a lot of stamina. I think. it's very important to have next. generation uh, individuals running. Uh, the Congress has aged by more than. 10 years over the last 20. Um, and. that's in part due to the fact that it's. harder to actually break in and win. elections because the costs of these. elections is just out, you know, outrageous. >> And we should just we should just dwell.

on that for a second, right? So Congress. has aged by an by. 10 years. By 10 years, which is really. astonishing. It's astonishing when you. think of what happened to President. Biden. It's astonishing when you look at. Donald Trump wrestling with his his. health issues, which are very clear for. all of us to see. It's astonishing when. you think of I think is it Chuck. Grassley is now 92 or 93? I mean, in no. other job, in no in almost no other.

profession, would you still be. in charge of an organization at the age. of 93? >> Yeah. Yeah. And this is something that my my. co-founder David Gergen, who was also a. mentor of Seth Moulton, who you know, came in and did your show, emphasized when he was, you know, in his. 80s, was "Listen, it's time to pass the. torch. We need to we need to create that. room and create that that space.".

I write about Seth in this and Seth's of. course running a in a Democratic primary. against. um. Senator Ed Markey. And. >> He's running in Massachusetts. He's a. congressman up there and he's running. against Ed Markey, who's in the Senate. He's a popular senator, but he will also. be 80 going into the Senate. >> Yeah, and and one of the things that. Seth said on your show when he. interviewed the first time, which I I. did not know, even though I've known him. since the basic school for 25 years, and.

he revealed some things in that I had. not known as well for the for the book, including that he was actually relieved. of command in his first combat. assignment. I mean, talk about. overcoming adversity to be relieved in. command before his first combat. assignment. But on your show, he. mentioned that President Biden had been. one of the first folks that came out and. supported him. When nobody else. supported him. He ran kind of an. insurgent campaign against a. an embattled incumbent who was. embroiled in some some some.

some issues. But But Seth feels a great degree of. loyalty to President Biden, but was. still one of the first to come out, not. because it was personal, but just. because it was the right thing. He He. says on your show, you know, I saw the. the the I I saw it with my own eyes. I. saw part of the the debate and I knew. this was this is just not the this is. not the right thing. And let's not go. and just deceive ourselves. >> And I think he ran into I think they. they met at an event in Normandy, I want.

to say, and Seth or Congressman Moulton. realized that Joe Biden didn't recognize. him. >> Yeah. >> And he'd been a mentor to him and he. just didn't his face was completely it. just didn't register who Seth was. So so. in the book of the people that you. cover, who are or what are the incidents. that stuck with you as individual cases. of courage? >> Yeah, well, let me share one from. Mikie Sherrill because she'll she'll be.

kicking off the book launch next Tuesday. and we'll also be announcing the. historically large number of women. veterans that are running, which is very. exciting. And she also is the first woman veteran. ever elected to be governor. And I'll. I'll give two examples cuz I think. courage comes from your your upbringing. and I'm delighted that her parents will. join us at the 92nd Street Y. The first. was her dad in my second interview with. him said, you know, Mikie, she's got.

this amazing kind of magnetic. personality now, but she was actually. very shy. They moved around a lot when. she was growing up. And at some point, I. believe it was in the fifth grade, I put. it I put it in the chapter, she came home and she was like, you know. what? I'm tired of feeling anxiety about. how kind of shy I am. I'm just going to. start smiling. And so she did. >> [laughter]. >> And she just sort of like changed her. attitude. You know, attitude, pick a.

good one. And that carried her through a. time at the Naval Academy right after. Tailhook. She never complains about. being the only woman. But she was the. only woman on an aircraft carrier, an. aircraft carrier, 5,000 people after. Tailhook when she was like 19 years old. >> [laughter]. >> And she said, you know, like a lot of. the sailors, most of the average age of. sailors are like 22 years old and they. didn't even know what to do with her. They'd you know, start looking at the. the floors.

Uh but but you know, she she she. rose through the rose through the ranks. She had uh she faced a a lot of moments. in order to to again put service above. self. And and then this book really the. last part of each chapter focuses on. moments of political courage. And for. her that started right from day one. after she was elected in her seat. because she said to her constituents. that she was uh not going to vote for uh.

representative Pelosi to become speaker. again. And she wanted she was looking. for, you know, next generation etc. But she made that. commitment. Now, the politically wise. thing to do would have been to just. forget about the commitment and vote for. Speaker Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi to become speaker as many. did. But she decided to honor her word. and she did that and she paid some. political price and political cost for. for that. Um so it started early and.

then it continued throughout her time in. Congress and I document a bunch of other. a bunch of other things including being. pretty early on on on mentioning. publicly. uh that uh that uh President Biden. should uh you know, there should be. another nominee. >> Well, there's also an amazing anecdote. in your chapter on her where she is on I. think an aircraft carrier. She's on a. ship. Uh someone basically collapses. It. looks like they've been hit by a wave. and she along with a colleague keeps uh.

doing CPR for I think 2 hours for 2. hours on someone and eventually they're. able to get a helicopter to rescue this. person, and the person goes on to serve. for another 15 years, I think, in the. military. But again, just a an. incredible example of sort of staying. power and being smart in the moment and. not giving up. I remember. >> Yeah, well, I mean, I love that story in. part because she was 19 years old. And. it was a hurricane that had blasted. through the Atlantic. She was on her. first freshman year cruise.

And this shipmate of hers gets knocked. in the head. And for 2 hours she's doing. the CPR. And then the bird that came in. to. rescue him becomes the the helicopter. that she later flies. That becomes her. her her helicopter. And the Navy gave. her a naval achievement medal, which is. a very rare thing for a a midshipman to. to receive. But yeah, that's how I start. the chapter on her. >> Yeah, I I And I remember meeting her. at a lunch that I held that she came as. a as a guest to a a lunch that I hold.

every year called a power lunch. And no. one could believe it cuz not only was. she a helicopter pilot, but she had four. children. And you're like, "Oh, respect. Respect." So. >> Joanna, I'd love to also just share with. you that if it's all right with that. like this the courage is not always. going against your party either. Sometimes it's going with. a party position that is one that you. reassess and believe is the right thing. to do. The key is is do you actually. believe it's the right thing to do or.

you're just going along to, you know, fight another day, to wait for whenever. your moment's going to be. And one of. the examples that is really powerful to. me in part because I went up with my. mother and visited him in Lewiston, Maine was with Jared Golden because. Jared lives just a few minutes away from. a bowling alley that was the site of a. mass shooting in Lewiston. And I went up. there and I actually went into the. bowling alley.

And kids were there on there it was the. middle of the of. a holiday and kids were there bowling. and I saw the the memorials to the. individuals that were killed. They they. were killed by a gunman, unfortunately, a veteran who was in a reserve unit or. National Guard unit and had a history of. mental health issues. But because of the. laws in Maine at the time, which were. what were what's referred to as yellow. flag laws, they weren't able to. confiscate his automatic weapons, even. though it the warning signs were there.

and people were. soldiers were saying saying it up the. chain of command. So, when that gunman. was on the run on the loose for. a stretch of time, I believe it was over. a day, and Jared's racing back home to. see his wife and his young daughter and. just reassesses his position. And he had. been a Democrat that had been supportive. of automatic weapons. And he decided to. change his position. His advisors, many of whom said that.

this is going to cost you your seat, but. he just decided this is going to be the. right thing that right thing to do and. so so he did it. He barely won his. re-election. Won by about 0.6 points afterwards. >> So so right, one of the things you also. talk about across the chapters is just. um. weighing up when it's important to make. a stand. Can you just talk us through um. the sort of decision-making process of.

that. And and if as you said, not always. about taking a stand against something, but it's. the process of deciding this is worth. standing up for. This is a core value of. mine, even when it's not necessarily. popular. >> Absolutely. Yeah, so I I differentiate. between bravery and courage. This goes back to you know, sort of. ancient definitions where bravery is. Both are honorable. Both are, you know,

something to to seek. Uh but bravery can. be instinctive. You know, it can be in. the moment. Uh it can also be self-serving. It. doesn't need to be selfless. Courage is. always a decision. It's always a. decision that weighs risks and. consciously chooses to serve something. that is in the pursuit of what's called. the common good. Um President Obama just came out with a. beautiful essay that references the. common good and what what this means. It. can be a principle. It can be a. community. It can be. uh your nation.

Um but I think that the key The key. evaluation point is what is right. What. is the right thing to do? What is. honest? You know, our pledge to serve. with integrity. It's integrity first. You know, can I Am am I just going down. this slippery slope where I'm starting. to justify everything so that so that I. will so that not only I will, you know, stay in office, but um you know, a lot. of people will Some people will start to. telling themselves, "Well, the. alternative is worse.".

>> [laughter]. >> The alternative's worse. So, I'm just. going to, you know, uh. chew on this and not uh not take a. stand. And I think that as a society, we. will just be much better off if we not. only seek courage ourselves in our own. life. I believe that it can save us not. only as a country, but ourselves. But. also reward it, recognize it when it. happens in others. Don't just forget. about the individual that, you know, then loses their election. It's the 70th. anniversary of Profiles in Courage, and. we're going to do an event at the JFK.

Library. You know, you pick up that. book. It's beautifully written. Most of. the folks that are in that book have. kind of vanished into into history, right? But the book celebrates the. moments where they really some they were. putting it on the line. They had real. cost to themselves, either physically. or, you know, morally. Some people would. even say a cost to the soul, you know, matters of the soul. >> A cost to the soul. So, so I just want. to wind up uh with a question for you. because it seemed to me that as you.

wrote this book, you decided to write. your father is a very strong presence in. the book. And in the epilogue, you. discuss how he ends his life. And that felt like it took a lot of. courage to write that. And I'm sure. there are lots of people out there. who've also experienced this. uh or who may have considered even doing. this themselves. Why did you decide to write about it? Here is your father. We have a picture. of him. >> Yeah, thank you.

>> He's a nice guy. >> Thank you for putting that up. I I love. it. Yeah, love love being able to uh to. honor honor my my parents, uh both my. mother and my my father. My mother will. join us for the book launch at 92nd. Street Y on Tuesday. Uh but my father um passed away. He died. by suicide. And I first want to just say. that. uh you know, we face a mental health. crisis in the United States and um it's. a theme that kind of went through the. chapters. A lot of the veterans that. we've worked with have uh put uh much of.

their own efforts legislatively to try. to address the mental health crisis. Uh. Seth Moulton helped author the the the. hotline 988. Um and we have as an. organization. uh again, Democrats and Republicans helped uh. helped uh you know, sustain that. Um but. uh Marcus Aurelius said that um. uh he said that death is the final act. of of life. And how how you how you die. and um my father's uh death uh taught me.

something about myself. And um and and. really prompted me to want to write a. book about courage and about service. It. was a concept that mattered a lot to. him. He was a writer himself. Um and so. what I've tried to do with this is share. um, how that how his his passing uh, both affected me and how. um, it taught me a little bit of. something about um, about service to others and in this case.

um, uh, his service to to my mother first and. foremost. >> Okay, well Rye, thank you so much for. your time. Good luck with the book. Let's remind people 92nd Street Y next. Tuesday where your coming out period. book, I guess. Your coming out event. with Mikie Sherrill and with Wes Moore, both governors Maryland and and New. Jersey respectively. Um, again, the book Courage Can Save Us. Thank you very much, Rye Barcott.

>> Thank you. Awesome.