Lame Duck Trump Can't Deny Epstein Shockers: Wolff | The Daily Beast Podcast

He's annoyed that people, his people, are the ones really meeting the drama on this issue. And I think he's a little afraid. Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Hugh Daugherty. I'm keeping the chair warm for Joanna Coles. while she enjoys some very well deserved rest and relaxation. And just to answer some questions that have popped up in the comments. Who is this guy and what's with his accent? It's horrible looking at you. Let's try six 4 or 5 three.

I'm the executive editor of The Daily Beast, and I come to New York. by way of Fleet Street and originally and proudly. I'm from Scotland. There's going to be far more interesting things to comment on than my accent today, because we are talking. And in a time of incredible crisis for Donald Trump, a crisis that has, first of all, been caused by the Jeffrey. Epstein Files and Trump's fracturing relationship with his base. Just in the last few days, he has called his MAGA supporters. stupid weaklings and accused them of buying into bullshit.

But on top of that, his doctors have admitted that he has a geriatric health condition. I'll just remind you, is 79 called chronic venous insufficiency? So at a time like this, who better to turn to than. Michael Wolff, the bestselling author of four books on Donald Trump, a man who Jeffrey Epstein wanted to write a biography of him. He's a Daily Beast podcast in-house expert on this administration, the man at the head of it,

and the one voice that everybody wants to hear from in a time like this. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. There is just so much to dive into. Just dive in. We spoke last, I believe 5 or 6 years ago, but really only a couple of days. And Trump seemed. to be able to maybe strong arms base, maybe make MAGA back down. And it seems like the opposite has happened. What has been going on?

Well done. Donald Trump just gets deeper and deeper into this, and the his much vaunted ability to for past, anything that's troublesome and, and. and do this by creating often new trouble, new trouble that neutralizes or obviates. the old trouble has not been working. Now, I have a I have a theory, though, about one of the reasons. why this is isn't not working, which is that this may.

kind of formally. beginning be the beginning of his lame duck phase, which is to say, Donald Trump is not going to be able to run for president again. This is his second term. Other people will try to take his place in as the as the leaders. of the Republican parties and the leaders. of the MAGA movement.

One of the things that they will have to do is diminish the front runner, and that front runner, of course, would be JD Vance. So what what a set of these. figures in the MAGA movement are doing. Steve Bannon, Tucker Carlson, all people. who might well want to run for president themselves. or who certainly will want to have an influence.

on what figures emerge out of the MAGA, Republican universe to run for president. And in order and in order to claim that that, that leadership role, they. have to distinguish themselves from, from Donald Trump and from JD Vance. Well, here is one of those things that does it. Jeffrey Epstein, the president has has now.

put himself in a very unpopular position of of saying, you know, pay no attention to that, to that, to that Epstein. Epstein who, and. and these other figures across the MAGA spectrum. are now claiming this as their mental. And it's the beginning. I mean, it feels like the beginning of an issue. that can distinguish them from the president and his team.

There's so much to unpack there about about a lame duck Trump, about MAGA. I want to get back to the idea that the idea of Trump is a lame duck. It's almost like the the fact that will not dare not speak its name. Trump has never addressed being a lame duck. What? What is this? What would that. What's going on inside his psyche right now. as he presumably comes to some realization? Well, I don't think he is coming to a realization of of that yet.

And and if so, then he is now. trying to think of ways to, to to surmount. that ways to, to again. change, change the subject and put him back, back as the central figure here. But the reality is he is a lame duck. I mean, or he will be. I mean, the late, I mean, look at this as a on a on a on a continuum here.

He will become more and more and more of a lame duck. And but it comes pretty fast in the second term. And because, I mean, the the end is there and the inevitable. a bull exists and and, and it takes. a lot of people have to people have to position themselves for this. This is going to be a struggle on the part of many, many people. And if you let it go too late, you're going to be out of the game.

Takes us to something that you mentioned, Steve Bannon and Steve Bannon. just a few weeks ago, was standing up and telling the MAGA. loyalists at a turning point or C Pac, I believe, gathering that we should look for how do we get Trump a third term? How quickly has the knife turned or how quickly is the one turns here? Well, as I've, you know, that was that's baloney. There's no baloney like Bannon baloney. And he never he never meant that.

He never took that seriously. And that was just a, a kind of. a kind of tip of the hat, because we all have to bow to, to to the great man, but the great man is going to fall. And, and Bannon knows this and Bannon. is looking for his, his opportunities. Bannon has as long as I have known him, heading on for ten years now, has wanted to be the president of the United States.

And if not the president of the United States, the king, maker of the president of the United States. And, and he did that once, and he wants to do this again. And that that starts now. So the other person that is absolutely essential to this is the other. the other elected person. And this is JD Vance. What is what is life like now for JD Vance. Well he you know he's comes out of the MAGA movement. He was the guy who was elected put in the vice,

put it in the vice president's, slot. As a as a kind of sop to the MAGA dies. He was supposed to keep the MAGA people, under control. And, but the problem with that. is that he is now put himself, you know, he. he is the guy that the other MAGA people have to take down. Not so much Donald Trump, but JD Vance and JD Vance is now stuck.

What can he do? He can't come out and say and say, you know, you know, you're whitewashing the Epstein, the Epstein business. He's he's he's toeing. He must toe the Trump line. It seems a bit like the crises, or at least the difficulty that engulfed. Kamala Harris when she was so closely tied to Biden. Of course, it engulfs all vice presidents. And the other. I've been doing a very quick bit of research, and it seems.

there are very few two term presidents who were succeeded. by a third term of their own party. And, Mike, I'm sure your presidential history. knowledge will be ahead of me here, but I, we I believe that H.W. Bush was the only sitting vice president who managed to succeed a two term. president, which doesn't seem to give much, much hope to JD Vance. Well, you know, and I've always said that, that the one thing Trump cannot have happen.

is for another Republican to become. the president of the United States, because then what is Donald Trump? What what he what he wants. is, I mean, what what will happen. is that whoever is the Republican nominee, Trump will undermine that person will lose. Trump will go back to Mar a Lago as the, as the once and future head of MAGA. in the Republican Party. And,

and he will sit in Mar a Lago and, and would try to run. an alternative white House and presidency. In the meantime. What's he going? He's he's clearly going to try to distract. And I just wanted to run through some of the, some of the flack. that he has, thrown up in the last few days. He's claimed that Coca Cola is going to be remade with cane sugar, something that Coca-Cola itself has not offered any confirmation of.

He's dispatched Pam Bondi to the real Alcatraz, claiming that he's going to reopen it for the worst of the worst, and he has gone after Rosie O'Donnell. He's told wild stories. about his uncle, allegedly educates it, educating the Unabomber. It's not what you expect to see that this is going to get these. This distraction attempt is. Yeah. I mean, I think obvious. Obviously he will do anything possible to to, to move on from here. The question is, can he.

And the question is, will the story let him move on? And I think that he is in a corner. I mean, I think it's, the, the, the. the fact that we are still discussing this, is a. is a measure of how tight the corner is, you know, you know, and I partly think. that that, that people understand. or people are starting to understand that,

how how. significant Jeffrey Epstein. is to the Donald Trump story. And, you know, the The Wall Street Journal report. that has that has come out with this, with this birthday greeting, from Trump to, to Epstein on his 50th birthday. So that would have been in 2003. is part of, I think, what we could see, a drip, drip,

drip, that relationship, this relationship existed. It existed for more than a decade. And there is and and for, for reasons having to do. with Trump's talents, for denial. He has most of the details of this relationship. have have been hiding in plain sight. but have not become prominent parts.

of some prominent pieces of this discussion. And I think more and more we are going to see, see, see people pull out pieces of this, of this relationship and, and, and, and begin to understand how important it was. Now, of course, Trump, when the Wall Street Journal released. this, Trump said said, I didn't do that. That's not me. Again, Trump very good at denial.

He it doesn't matter what it is. He will just then I remember once Bannon said to me that if if the. if the Russian tapes actually ever came out, it wouldn't hurt Trump because he would just say, that's not me. Even if it was glaringly obvious. that it was him. So, but I'm. Not sure that he gets. Away with it this time because it is actually in character.

He was, they were best friends for all of this time. It was Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday. And Trump responds with, banter. about their central mutual interest, which is women, all perfectly in character. and all going back to this, this, this idea that we are we are coming face to face with that,

that that that these guys had carved this, but this incredibly strong relationship carved a life together. over the, the 80s and 90. So to clarify, the note says happy birthday. May every day be another wonderful secret. And then there's a drawing of a of a naked woman. I mean, this is what the Wall Street Journal Journal reports.

So the question of, what what does what does secret mean? And I think the implication is, is, is is straightforward. They lived they lived a life that they were, they lived a life on, in a demi monde life. A life on the, on the, on the, on the wild side and the less than respectable side on the,

a, you know, a night. life is what they is, what they, they live, you know, then there's been some some talk, I think I think, I think, Tina Brown suggested that that, well, Trump is not interested. in, in, in young women and that's, that's. actually a failure to understand what is actually being discussed here. What actually went went on.

Yes. Trump is not it's not interest. I think it's safe to say there's no indication that Trump is interested in, that Trump is a pedophile, that he's interested in. In prepubescent girls. And I'm not sure there is actually that case against Epstein either. They were interested in what they called models. How old were models? You know, well, they're not prepubescent, and, they're they certainly look like they could be of, of of age.

But these are in the model world generally, generally girls. between 16 and 20, yeah. Is that, you know, that was the 80s. So, inside what what I'm hearing. is, you know, sheepish shyness. Everybody seems to understand that this is,

that this is a problem, and it's, and and what can they say? You know, they people understand, the people inside understand, like, we are outside, beginning to understand that. Trump and Epstein had a relationship, had a long relationship. that they were quite likely, quite. possibly very, it was a deep friendship.

And, and that's a, that's a fact. And nobody really. And the people inside don't know what all of the implications of, of this. So it's like, you know, we don't want to think. too much about what might be here. And then this is going to come back to the MAGA guys. But, you know, they have this, they have this in their teeth. I can't see a scenario for them, letting this go.

or why they would want to let them want to let this go. This is, you know, I mean, this is super. Red meat for them. And that's the that's also the power of the MAGA media complex, too, isn't it, that this is being amplified and echo. chambers in a way that keeps keeps the, the, keeps them. MAGA base engaged and they want, they want to hear more of that. Something that of course, Donald Trump has benefited from.

But now he's bounced back on them. Does he actually know what's happening inside the MAGA media world? That's I'm trying. to put my head into into into Donald Trump's head. Right. Right now. That might be uncomfortable place. Yes. Well, well, that's a place that I'm somewhat used to, alas. But, I mean, Donald Trump. never quite thinks that that way. because it's all about what he thinks, not what someone else thinks. And,

and that's a, that's a handicap he has here because he had in order. for him to understand what's going on, you have to get into that. Think what they're thinking. But he doesn't do that. It's so so he doesn't. So I would say my conclusion is, no, he doesn't exactly know. I mean, he's a reactive guy. And he'll react to the headlines. And and his reaction to bad headlines is to create.

other headlines, which is which is what is going on now. But again, we are we are in this very, very unlikely. and confusing position that MAGA has gone out. They have created this issue and and it is an issue, in which the, the most. vulnerable person may well be Donald Trump. And is there any parallel has he ever been in that mess before?

Well, you know, he's been. in he's been in this in, a god, he's been in so many messes that I'm sure there's a, there's a, there's a mess for every occasion. You know, there's also a. Tweet for. Every. I mean, obviously, though, the worst mess that I think that he has been. in, in his political career was the, grabbed him by the pussy tape, in that almost brought him down.

And, and and to this day, I'm kind of, agog that he, in fact, got out of it. He's he surmounted that, and, you know, so, so so who knows? It's it's it's Donald Trump. This is, this feels to me like it has a. this could be a very serious wound, the Jeffrey Epstein wound, in which you,

you might be able to limp on, but you don't recover from, but but I could be absolutely wrong about this. And Trump magic prevails. And again, Epstein who? Well, you mentioned the limp. And I think that's just the right moment to link to the latest medical news. about Donald Trump. This is a man who. we have known so little about, has the truth about his medical condition. And you will everybody will remember that he was photographed with swollen ankles.

at, the Meadowlands Stadium in New Jersey, where he was watching the soccer World. World Cup championship and. as a result, a few days later, the white House has released. what is probably the most. transparent description of his health that we have ever had, saying that he now. has been diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency and that he had, heart scan. echocardiography to check on his heart health.

That's got to be a big psychological thing for Trump to admit, hasn't it? You would think. I mean, I know that, you know, during the campaign, there was. there was a moment where, where, where a lot of reporters and photographers, caught him with very puffy lobster hands. And he was subsequently. confront asked about this at a, at a news conference. This was actually after he had a meeting with the with the.

with the Teamsters leadership in Washington came out. He had a news conference and he was said and somebody said, you know, your hands. We saw pictures of your hands. And, you know, they were really puffed up and. and we just want to know what's going on with that. And he hesitated. And then he said, it must be a, a. And just for the record, we don't believe it was I. Did we we saw it in plain sight. So, For him to make that admission,

it's that a sign of his understanding that he's 79 and he's frail? Or is it is it possibly also a distraction? Again, I yeah, I don't, you know, I mean, it was a I found it to be an it, you know, a notable, a notable admission. And but you know, of course, he's, he's. 79 years old and, and, and I, you know, I, you know, I mean, it was,

it is obviously it is obviously true. How then, how does Donald Trump wrestle with mortality? It doesn't seem that he's likely to be self-reflective. Well, I was just going to say not the most introspective guy in the world. I think he wrestles with mortality by, by believing that he is immortal. And he he maybe thought he'd proven it to himself. Of course, at Butler, which is almost exactly a year ago. But that also speaks to come back to, you know,

what is really been happening this week is the sense of this might be a lame. duck presidency that health issues. Yeah. And remember. Poor. You. Sorry to interrupt, but I'm just caught by the glaring. How how much you know, we are now, we are now six months into this. and and it he has dominated this entirely. I mean, he has almost. It is as though he has gone into this, into this president.

and presidency determined to defy lame duck. This, and he was going to do this by just pure, by being a pure action figure every day. He would dominate. He would he would crush, he would humiliate, he would, he would he would change the the, the the nature of the of the known world. But even doing all that,

you know, the timeline is the timeline. You don't defeat it, and and he is going to run up against it. If not now, then six months from now, if not six months from now. Six months after that. But that would be the limit. I mean, he is and let's be perfectly let's just name it. It is a political in in escape a political condition. He's a lame duck. Can he does he even believe himself?

He can run for a third term. I mean, no. Now he he doesn't he can't. He will. On top of that, let's go to the other point we're discussing here. He's 79 years old. And he would be 82 or 3 if he was running for re running. and obviously not running, limping because of the ankles. But yes, I mean, he's already. the oldest man to be elected to this, to this, to this office. Let's not even discuss it. That's a distraction, a third term.

So let's just go back again to what's happening inside. Michael Stevens is handicapped. We talked about Bannon. The other name you mentioned is Tucker Carlson. What what are people talking about with Tucker. And how how believable is he as a candidate. Well, I you know, I think I, I don't know how. how believable he, he is as a candidate. I mean, he's believable as a, as a, as a Maga, a star.

And opinion is. and, you know, he's almost like a dream candidate. who might well, yeah. If, if he were to run, everyone wakes up and said, this is crazy, but, but remember, in this world where Donald Trump has been elected. president, what what's crazy? Tucker has always. or for a long time has toyed with this. He's toyed with this, openly with me, among among others.

And, and, you know, and I think, I think, I think to him is, well, why not see if this is possible? Why not play it like this? You don't have to run. But maybe. Maybe he will. And what? What's the thought process. if you're JD Vance, what do you do about somebody like Tucker? I don't think you do anything now. I mean, I think all you can do is be loyal to your patron. and and assume that that is already.

an advantage so large that, that. these other people sniping at your heels will ultimately be irrelevant. You know, that is not. that may be the case, but of course, is not necessarily the case. So are there other people out there that MAGA that that want to be. or are in the MAGA movement that we should keep our eyes on? Yeah. Well, we'll have to discuss this and, and at length some, some other time. I mean, I think that, you know, one of the interesting things.

is that the Republican Party so dominated by Donald Trump, there really. has not been much of an opportunity for, for other people to emerge. And we are. But now we may be we may be witnessing that opportunity. So to take it back to Trump, what's going through his head as he sees. that opportunity, as he sees people emerging. He gets annoyed. I mean, we see him every day. You know, he's pissed off about this. He's, he's pissed off about the Jeffrey Epstein thing,

which he thought he had long ago put to rest. He's he's. annoyed that that people, his people are are. the ones are the ones really beating the drum on this on this issue. And I think he's a little frayed about, you know, about, about, about what might be out there. And he's also he's been a master of capturing media attention. And one of the things that was perhaps most noteworthy.

as a, as the white House acknowledged his health issues. They also complained that no cable network. and by which they included Fox News, had covered many of his recent events. Well, they always said that. that's always been a been a pattern, you know, you know, he has these these, these these events which are entirely un newsworthy. They're just boring. They're just, you know, you know, the. president coming out and shaking hands with some, some more or less worthy, uninteresting figure.

And it's like, well, why doesn't that why doesn't the press, cover. this rather than what's covered the, the most recent controversy? I mean, this is just something that they, that they, that a self-pitying Trump says. And presumably that we're going to hear a lot more from him. because he becomes less interesting as a lame duck. Yeah. Well, I think we're we're just beginning to,

continue to sort of feel around that, that experience. I mean, we don't, you know, I mean, Trump has been the guy who has dominated. the political news for ten years. And so what is it like when he begins to fade? Well, you know, he's going to he but trust me, he is going to fight it. But I, I against that. And, boy, but. you know, you know, there's, there's a certain certain,

poetry to this point in the story when the inevitable happens. Michael, the only inevitable and Trump world is that we need. you back here to talk about the next development. Thank you so much for joining us. There is no he might be a lame duck president, but there is no shortage of drama. But he's he's our lame duck. He is our lame duck, and we are inseparable from him. Thank you for joining us. I will see you soon.

Thank you. Michael. Thank you. There is no better voice to hear from about this extraordinary time. and Donald Trump's presidency. It could be the bitter end of the beginning. It could be the beginning of the end. To find out what happens, you know where to come. Subscribe to us. To the Daily Beast. It's so easy. Go to. the Daily beast.com. and we will keep you up to date with every bit of the drama about Trump's.

health and about the Epstein files and everything in between. If you like this podcast, share it with your friends, share it with your enemies, share it with the people that really need to know about Trump. And that is everybody these days. And until the next time, there's only one thing to say. As Joanna always says, be a beast. The Daily Beast podcast was produced by Devin Roger Reno and an evaluation. and edited by Jesse Millward.