Judges Destroy Trump in Utter Ballroom Humiliation | The Daily Beast Podcast

A really sensational turn this morning. This is genuine breaking news. Appeal judges have told Donald Trump. He has to stop building his ballroom. They have absolutely torn apart all his case for building the ballroom. We're all familiar. with the notorious tear down that he is executed on the East Wing. How scathing. Just how scathing. Well, how scathing. I think this will go down as one of the. I believe they call them bench slappings in the law. They wrote jointly. The White House is the people's house. Yay!

Congress exercises. plenary control over the building and its surrounding land. Donald Trump, this is not your building. Each president is a temporary tenant, not the owner of the White House. The president has no and claims no constitutionally assigned authority. over the property. If you want to build. your ballroom, Donald Trump, you have to get Congress to vote for it. A simple humility of the White House, which is literally the opposite of what Donald Trump is doing with it.

I'm cold. This is where else is it? It's a Daily Beast podcast, and we have breaking news about the ballroom. Well, it's breaking right now. And I think you're going to like this news we're also hearing about Todd Blunt. Is he isn't he? It's like pulling the petals off a daisy and the screaming match at Camp David. We have to talk about the squirrel on his head.

And of course, fantastic news. Mitch McConnell is out of rehab. No, not that kind of rehab. Know physical rehab. He's back, he's back. And Tom Tillis, it turns out he's been living in his basement. Who knew? Okay, Hugh Doherty is here and the executive editor. And he's going to ask you. Well, no he's not. Well, you could do. Ask people to smash the subscription button. I and like the podcast and share it with your friends. Oh, Joanna, thank you for thank you for having me. I'm more than happy to say we love our subscribers.

It's because of our subscribers that we are able to do independent journalism. So please, if you have not already subscribed, hit that button. We are well over 700,000. We're heading for a million thanks to Joanna's brilliance. Oh my brilliant, my brilliance. And if you are, you can also become a member. and you can follow us at the database. where we are updating things around the clock. But, Joanna, come on, let's get into it. The ballroom hell is happening for a really sensational turn this morning.

This is genuine breaking news. that appeal. judges have told Donald Trump he has to stop building his ballroom. They have absolutely torn apart. all his case for building the ballroom. We're all familiar. with the notorious tear down that he is executed on the East Wing. And never forget, he demolished half of it in the middle of the night. when people didn't know what was doing, and then they woke up.

And do you remember people were taking pictures of it. because they couldn't quite believe it. And then they erected a fence so people couldn't take pictures. You couldn't see anything. Please continue. Well, so this morning, this this is a case. As people will remember, there has been a lot of litigation around this, and various groups went to court. And the one that has led the way is National. Trust for Historic Preservation in the United States. They got in front of a George W Bush appointed drug judge and D.C.

judge, Richard Leon, and he ruled that the ballroom should stop. But he didn't do it. He stayed his order because he said it would be appealed. So it was sort of temporarily suspended. It was well, in theory, it was temporarily suspended. But it was, he said, if if the white House wants to appeal, they can. And that would then go to an appeal circuit in Washington, D.C.. Well, they did it has. In the meantime, Trump has kept going with the building works.

But in this morning, we now have a ruling from these pure. judges in Washington, D.C., and it is scathing. Okay. And it is going to be this is an explosion for Trump. Okay. Give me the scathing house. Scathing housekeeper. Scathing. Well how scathing I think this will go down as one of the, I believe they call them bench slapping in the law. Bench slapping. I love that term. I've never heard it. Yes. The two judges. So this was A21 ruling. Two judges, one in numbers, strength in numbers.

The one who didn't, the one who was in Trump's favor. Not surprisingly, was appointed by Donald J. Trump. But the other two are appointees from Obama. and Biden and the Judge Millett and Judge Garcia. They wrote jointly, The white House is the people's House. Yay! Congress exercises. plenary control over the building and its surrounding land. Donald Trump, this is not your building.

This could not be a clearer, clearer judgment. The also tore apart. Each president is a temporary tenant, not the owner of the white House and its executive residence. The president has no and claims. no constitutionally assigned authority over the property. Does this mean that it can then go to Congress for a vote? Yes. So what they say is, if you want to build. your ballroom, Donald Trump, you have to get Congress to vote for it.

Right? Because he notoriously doesn't take any notice of Congress, goes goes round them. or over them or ignores them entirely, which is what he did with his demolition, right? Yes. And these these judges, as I said, are. Democratic, were appointed by Democratic presidents. And we know what's going to happen next. I don't want to spoil the ending here. because we could save that for the end of the show. But let's skip to the ending. This is going to the Supreme Court, and these judges have Supreme Court. proofed it. We all know that the Supreme Court is in the grip of A63 conservative.

majority, and the conservative majority are originalists. They want to know what happened at the foundation of the Republic. What did the. the founders and the people were mediately after understand was the case? About what? About what happened at the time. And those rulings have been hugely controversial. Dobbs, which tore up abortion rights, was in there telling based on what. the understanding of people in the 1770s,

1780s was, but whether you could expect a right in abortion. Similarly, gun rights. So these judges have said, have gone back in history. and said this is the oldest public building in the District of Columbia, that it was that Columbia, Columbia, the District of Columbia was designed by Pierre Long Fong. We've all heard of him, the French born military genius and then architect. who laid out Washington, D.C., and they say that it was wrong.

Fong. Which I'm struggling to say. My French is not great. Your Scottish is very good here. Scottish is. I'm very. Do you know I'm very discreet about being Scottish. I don't know how you knew that that was the case, but they say that he deliberately designed it. so that the city was focused on the capital, which they called the gleaming powers of the people, to contrast it with the simple humility of the white House, the simple humility of the white House, which is literally the opposite. of what Donald Trump is doing with it. The nine what is it?

90,000ft ballroom, which is double the size of the rest of the white House. There is no such thing as simple humility in the Trump plan in Trump. And they are absolutely. They then go through history. to see what happened between the white House and Congress. And they point out that when the British sorry, guys, our people attempted. to burn down the white House, I should say in 1812, it was Congress that appropriated the money for the repairs. That's the biggest bit of building work, clearly, because,

you know, it was rebuilt. Yes. Rebuilding work that we've seen. They then point out, we are aware of and we're aware. Well, we then point out that Congress. appropriated the money to build the East Wing and the West Wing. So it's pretty crystal clear. What was the original understanding of people, what to originalists? What original is going to say that Congress decides? So put that in front of a conservative majority in the Supreme Court.

who believe in originalism. This is a really difficult one for Clarence Thomas and company to get out of. And also, I suspect that they also, although I'm not quite sure why. I'm saying this, but I think they probably also are appalled by what's happening. The Trump of the of the white House, which. I think. has shocked Republicans as well as Democrats. Yeah, but is there before it goes to the Supreme Court? Is there a way of Trump funneling this to Congress before.

he loses the House of Representatives, as he does in the midterms? Well, these judges have kind of given him an escape hatch if he can make it work. But he has a slight fall. First of all, he would have to get some legislation. drawn up very, very quick, rushed through Congress, which is fueled up and gone for its vacation. The Senate wants to be out today. We're going to talk about that later. Can't he call people back?

He could actually say it's an emergency. Ask him to come back and say it's an emergency. Is it an emergency? That's a bit of a problem. Do you want a campaign ad if you're a vulnerable Republican saying he wouldn't. vote for inflation busting measures, he he wouldn't vote for this or that. But do you know what he votes to give Trump a ballroom? So I don't think he's going to get support. But even if he does, he then has to get it through the Senate. That might be something that could be filibustered. Depends how he draws up this legislation. The appropriation of funds could just be a budget measure.

But there's a whole we just, you know, there's a whole can of worms here that's. been opened and it's running out of time, and he's running out of time. He is running against the clock. He could he has got until January, the start of January to get his control, you know, his control of Congress to get this through. But after November it's a lame duck session. And many of them, me and I say me, have experienced the blue wave. and not really be much, you know, wanting to do Trump any favors.

Well, it's also possible that he could get the religious etc. through by January if he really sort of focuses, but then it can be undone if the Democrats win Congress also win the House. If the if the Democrats win the House, they could maybe do something. If they win the Senate, then you know he's cooked in that situation. This is this is a fascinating nightmare because it's it's clear. these judges have written an absolutely scathing judgment. They also deal with the strange fact that Donald Trump.

has repeatedly said that we are not paying for the ballroom. Right. He's got the winners. Right. And I was just looking through the list of donors. I mean, talk about. I was going to say gold plated, but that's what the ballroom will be. But these donors are gold plated. Apple, Google, Mark Zuckerberg's meta. just based on Jeff Bezos, Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, the defense contractor. Caterpillar, who's huge manufacturer of defense material,

among other things, and even a European based Indian billionaire. who who produces foreign steel, is giving the steel all of that. These judges say that doesn't really matter. We are aware of new instance instance in American history in which a president, you know, actually and using privately collected funds, demolished. substantial portions of the white House that Congress authorized to be built. and American taxpayers paid for. So he can't just say, wow, I'm paying.

I've got the money. I don't need it. So what's going to happen to that money, do we think, well, who knows? I mean, this is this these judges make this point. that they've never seen anything like this before. If a president gathers money for the white House and they say, well, you can't use that money, where's that money going? We we don't know. Well, I think we do know. Well, you may have suspicions driving to the library.

The Trump library where the Katari grift force one. Your phrase is going to. Or is it or is it? Is it? Yeah. We don't know whether or not that's going to happen. A big toe in Miami is going to need some steel. So maybe I actually Mittal, the steel tycoon could give the give that. I don't know, it probably needs some computers. This is turn up. Yes. Because also the white House is currently a construction site. and we've already seen that the helipad that they were putting down,

Donald Trump suddenly pulled it up again and said it was sloping. And he wants it to be. He wants the seal relayed. Yes. So the entire place is in disarray. It must be hell on Earth to work there and live there. because it must be very noisy, possibly not in the middle of the night, but incredibly noisy to work there with jackhammers going at all times. So work will cease. Well, project they have. The judges have given 14 days to the white House and said, you're 14 days to either stop the work or get this judgment overturned.

So they've given the white House 14 days to go to the super, 14 days. to go to the Supreme Court. Aren't the super. I mean, the Supreme Court. takes longer holidays and almost everybody else, it's a little bit like academics. They just disappear. For three months. I was shocked at how long their holidays were, actually. So aren't they already on vacation? Well, they're on vacation. Clarence Thomas, someone must pay. He's in his RV. He's in his RV. He's. He's seen him. Right? You know, if you've seen him out there, let us know and we can help get those papers. So.

But is it possible that they'll just say, well, we're not working through. I think they're back at the beginning of October. So they they have this emergency system. and it will go this the shadow docket on the shadow docket. Right. And they will have to decide, are they dealing with it? Can you imagine the phone calls they must have. You must I mean, John Roberts, be careful what you wish for. Probably dreamed as a small child of being the chief justice. And now he was dressed in a Forbes aged four.

No, it you know, he was parading around in his father's. bathrobe saying I'm the chief Justice. What do you want to be when you grow up, chief justice? Here's my gavel. You know that he was doing that from an early age. Now he has to deal with his absolute nightmare. He must be calling them. It must be calling the other just Brett Kavanaugh. Oh, my God, you can't believe what's happened. Poor Brett. I mean, he was just, like, planning a kegger. I don't know, right? Planning a cake with his friends was off in his RV. Yeah, exactly.

Amy Coney. Barrett was probably writing another book or fostering or adopting another child. Samuel was putting up a flag the wrong way round. And his wife was, you know, people are busy flags and they're busy, right? And they're probably out making speeches and getting paid for their speeches. And they do freelance. The, the, the summers are often a time that the Supreme Court. justices are off, you know, talking about their work. I think it's what they do off supplementing their income. What do they get paid? Nearly half $1 million and they're off supplementing their income.

I who would not do I know if there was three. if you would set your own vacation, I don't know. I mean, can we speak about this afterwards. We can't we cannot speak about it afterwards. And what are we doing in the studio. and the Supreme Court of Disappeared when you say that to. Yeah, yeah, but this is they will have to decide immediately. Do they say. Well they could because obviously they have options. The Supreme Court has options. When they get this application, they could say, oh, we'll extend this city. that will allow Donald Trump to keep demolishing and keep building.

because they probably want to take on board the practical nature of this two. Right? Because surely it's more vulnerable. The white House one half of. It's not that. I mean, yeah, it seems crazy. And the argument. that Trump is putting forward as this is all about national security. I know again, we have talked we've said things that well, it's not. Huey, you're being unfair. You're being unfair. Its national security to be able to have a big party. It is. That's true. Want to have big pastures and bulletproof rooms?

The president loves entertaining. He loves his moral style. Events. He's created this huge ballroom to have big state dinners. You know, that's national security. I knew I could try. You had to get a party. International security. Hell, yeah. He's also going to put on the on top. He drew in port a drone port. And also in the bunker. Is there a military grade hospital? Yes, yes. Which means he wouldn't need to go anywhere else for hospital. Well, he could have had Mitch there. He could have offered Mitch healthcare on the premises of the white House.

so that they could ensure he was going to get better just in time to. vote for Todd Blunt. Yes. Well, okay. So let's just let's finish off with Scotus. So Scotus is going to get emergency calls from John Roberts saying, oh, you'll never guess what the president's done. Now we all have to get together and they'll they'll be like, they'll be going through their list and go. And he'll go, no, it's number five on that list. The other four things you still. you were thinking he's going to do that a really bad. He hadn't done those yet but it's the ballroom.

So they have to decide are they going to allow ballroom building to keep going. And when you are building to keep going, well, that's kind of a judgment, isn't it? You're kind of giving Trump a win. Are they going to say we will let the what they could do was, you know, sort of cowardly, I guess we of doing this would be to say just do nothing. And if they don't take the case, which is what happened with his previous with the what was that? I mean, they've made so many judgments,

but what was the one where they refused to take it? The Aegean carol place by refusing to take a jean carol. Right then they ruled against him, but without doing it. in public, which is, you know, the opportunity they have here. So they could refuse to take this case, or they could say, you have to pause the building and we will consider it in full. Now, nobody, nobody who's any knowledge of the Constitution, all that sort of thing are looking at this this morning. And I'm not claiming personal knowledge of the Constitution here. These are everybody's looking at this ruling is saying.

this is a pretty strong ruling. It's strong constitutional grounds that these judges have cited. And it's a big problematic area for whoever is Donald. Trump's attorney general to get this, get to get this through. He doesn't have an attorney and he's. Yeah, well, come on to that in a minute. But can you also imagine being the first architect who in theory, was fired by Donald Trump from it, but I think probably resigned from the job. who must just be like I mean, he must have given the biggest exhale.

Thank God I walked away from this project. And poor Shalom, Baroness, who we have regular to right to. Yes. Who tried, I think, very hard to actually back out of the project once. he realized. what a nightmare the whole thing was, was then rolled out by the white House, sort of pushed out there to talk about it endlessly, to sort of reinforce the fact that he now had to take on this project. I cannot imagine being a contractor on it, a can't imagine.

being the architect on it. And I can't imagine working in the white House amid all the jackhammer. Yeah. And the other thing that I've seen about this is these judges, again, cleverly have pointed out that where the white House is, it is in a national park. And this this is a national park, of course, that Donald Trump has been tearing up, not just the white House. He's rebuilding Lafayette Park. We have seen what he has done elsewhere.

The UFC on the South Lawn. He destroyed the grass of the South Lawn, which was then being put back together, I think free of charge by was it miracle Rice Miracle-Gro? Yes, I like Miracle-Gro, so I think it will grow very fast. It's all I'm saying. But the guy in the ads isn't Scottish, by the way. Oh. Does he pretend to be Scottish? Actually, Norwegian. But anyway. Okay, he's appropriating my accent. And if you need a miracle, grow. Scott here, I'm doing any grass at all. But you know. But the they are pointing out where it is,

and they are saying you can't tear any of this up. That's a whole ward of his projects. They are saying he has to have Congress to get any of his projects done. And that's the arch as well. Forks. It's the it's the south one I helipad. It's putting a fair on the National on the National Mall. It's regressing all the national parks in Washington DC. This is a really far reaching ruling for the thing that Trump is obsessed about. What about the reflecting pool? Is that included in this? Yes it is actually.

Go on. It's a national park. So it's in this national it's in this national park. And if he wants, he can't just spend money on it. Right. And we know that that was the result of the reason it didn't work was. it was the result of shoddy contractors. Yes. Because Jeanine Pirro, his own US attorney in DC, made that very clear when she targeted her bag to the white House to show him. the fake evidence she'd been presented by the Department of the interior.

The other person, by the way, in this, we should say, is. the national parks are under the Interior Secretary, Doug Burgum. He has been at Trump's side through all of this. And if you're Doug Burgum today, it's not what you want on your, you know, the first line of your New York Times obituary is. is shaping up here as the man who ruined Washington DC, Doug Bergen, the man who ruined Washington, D.C.. I once sat behind Doug Burgum at a conference,

and Howard and Nick came on the screen. He was joining us remotely, and Doug Bergen was frantically. taking pictures of Howard and sending it to someone. I don't know, I just thought, oh, interior ministers, they're just like the rest of us. Interior Secretary, interior secretaries. I always call them ministers instead of secretaries. One British ism. I can't, I can't lose. So you have lost Bernie. We have both lost our British isms of burning the white House. So you are safe. We have. We care about the white House. And I don't want it to be Trump.

I mean, my issue with it is just esthetically. It's so weird to lump on an enormous, as King Charles would say, carbuncle, monstrous bunker. I bet you can impersonate them as well. I think I can. I think he said it was a monstrous card bunker. This was when he was talking about an extension that was going to be put on. to the National Gallery in Trafalgar Square. Full view of Nelson and Nelson's Column. And in fact, he won King Charles. He was Prince Charles at the time of fan of classical architecture,

and he got that project kicked off, and there was a whole. to do among architects in the UK about it. But he would see this, and I think rightly so, as a monstrous. carbuncle on the side of the white House, which completely knocks off any symmetry. And Washington, as we know, as you've talked about, is a city built on symmetry. And, you know, the amazing name dropping that these judges have done of song. Well, they've obviously known that Donald Trump was going to go to town on them. Personally, I'm sure they're already being docked by him.

Well, they have also, I will say they have made a very knowing reference. They have quoted a book about the history of Pierre along thong, and the quote from the book that they have used. on the very first page of their judgment. So you can't miss. It is all about the sun. King Louis XVI pointed where the king's bedroom. was placed on the central axis of Versailles, enshrining the rule of divine right transferred via primogeniture. Here in Hong Kong plan, the home of Congress took center stage.

Who liked Versailles, right? Of course, of course. Yes. How interesting. Well, good for them. Yeah, I think these guys know historically. Yes. Okay. Well, Todd, Blanche, we are living through history, and they were at Todd Blanche straight from the southern King. Well, Todd Blanche is going to be the person that eventually figures out. how they maneuver around this. This just wins. Or is he. Well, I think is Joanna, again, we have a news.

We have a morning at the Daily Beast of Breaking News. These are the top two stories on our site right now. And the. the news is that Todd Blanche looks like he's going to get confirmed. courtesy of Senator Bill Cassidy. Oh, Bill Cassidy, who pretended that he was going to grill. RFK junior about vaccines and then voted for him. And then junior did what he wanted to do with vaccines anyway, which was to restrict people's access to them, which is why we now have.

and I like to say this every opportunity I can. More cases of measles in the US in the first six months of this year. than we've had in the first 24 years of this. millennium, that is RFK Juniors legacy. Well, that's Bill Cassidy and and builds Bill Cassidy legacy. And he got primary. He was primaried and he's also leaving like John Cornyn. So these men are like sort of paper tigers.

They pretend to roar against Todd Blanche and bluster and say, well, I need to be convinced that the slush fund is not going ahead. I need it on paper. And guess who's actually voted against them? It's the women. Now, admittedly, one of them is Susan Collins, who. she's trying to save her own skin up there in Maine, but also Lisa murkowski from Alaska, who's not up for reelection. this time around and is like, no, Todd, Blanche is not a good guy. I don't want any further politicization of the Justice Department.

She was very robust about weaponization and saying, this is weaponization, and you can't trust Todd Blanche, but Bill Cassidy know. that that meant that when when both the female senators said. no, Bill Cassidy was the one thought that nobody knew what he was going to do. Well, there's two votes. In fact. One was Mitch McConnell. Right. But, Bill Cassidy was, you know, around and findable. And people wanted to know how he would vote. And he has said this morning he has given his justification.

just before we started this broadcast, this odd cast, I should say, and it's incredible. He says, Mr. Blanche is not perfect. I think we've established that. I think Mr. Blanche would admit that. But this choice is not between perfection and Mr. Blanche. It is between Mr. Blanche and another acting attorney general who may not run the department. effectively under President Trump and who indeed may not be as good as Mr.

Blanche. So he basically said, oh, well, if it's not taught. by and Trump could come up with somebody even worse. So I've got Todd Blanche. So this is better. The devil you know better. The devil you know. Wow. It's it's an extraordinary piece of, maneuvering, ballet dancing. It will, however, give John Thune, the leader of the Senate leader,

the Senate majority leader, the ability to confirm Todd Blanche. and I should say this is going to be something that a lot of people are, you know, very concerned about. And the particular group of people that are. are affected by this, of course, are the Epstein survivors. They had asked to meet with Cassidy. They'd asked to meet with Cassidy staff because they say that Todd. Blanche is not a fit and proper person to be the attorney general. Well, and of course, his releasing of the Epstein files and that of Pam.

Bondi is one of the reasons that people feel so, well, just anxious about him. getting the job because it was just an in a very weird, piecemeal way. There's 3 million files still to drop which have not yet been released. And I think we we're almost certain to hear from the Epstein survivors. about their disappointment. And, you know, they were very public. They wanted to meet with Bill Cassidy. Well, he didn't listen to them and instead came up with this.

Well, you said morning justification, right? You say disappointment, I think Fury. I think they are furious. And when they did eventually get to meet Todd Blunt, because you'll remember during the confirmation hearings, there was a whole group of them in the room and people asked, in particular, the Democratic senator from Rhode Island asked if he would meet the victims. Eventually. He agreed after the hearings were over. And apparently one of the first things he said to them. when they were in his office was, well, get on with it.

I'm the mean, so rude. Yeah. And, you know, Todd, Blanche is not trying to win a public relations war here. Quite clearly it's audience of one. It's an audience of one. He could not afford to give away any sense of weakness to Donald Trump, his former client. Let's just remember his former, as he said when he was in the chair. and when John Kennedy, the Senate. Republican senator from Louisiana, said to him, are you a friend of Mr. Trump? He said, I am Mr. Trump's lawyer. Yes, I am the president's lawyer.

And here we are. He's going to be the attorney general. He's got a packed inbox. What are you going to do about making my ballroom work? Congratulations, DJT, probably first email is getting this morning again. Be careful what you wish for. You know, there's Todd Blanche. He's stuck in a kind of, you know, middling position. as a perfectly acceptable lawyer in a white shoe law firm in New York. He's reaching for the brass ring,

and he doesn't know that it's going to cost his soul. It's. It's a high price that people pay to reach the reach. The very top, isn't it, Joanna? Well, who knows? You. Can somebody help us? What's the price? We don't know. Well, we do know. I mean, we know. You know, I think Donald Trump's first attorney general, Jeff Sessions, is the perfect predecessor for Todd Blanche to look at here. Donald Trump only saves himself. Yes. Right.

Jeff Sessions, who's senator in Alabama, agrees to be his attorney general, probably absolutely thrilled. He's reached for his brass ring very quickly, has to recuse himself. because of the Russia investigation, because it turned out that during. the campaign, he'd met the Russian ambassador and not told anybody. Odd. But still. And also, why would the ambassador. Right. Who among us. But why would the Russian ambassador want to meet Jeff Sessions, the senator from. Well, I guess he's a US senator, but the senator from Alabama recused himself.

Trump never forgives him, gets rid of him after about 18 months. And when Jeff Sessions tries to go back. and and reengage and get elected again. as the senator from Alabama, Trump endorses his opponent. I mean, Trump trashes Jeff Sessions, who's. barely recovered, who's barely recovered. And interestingly, Bill Cassidy said that he consulted with. the final attorney general under Trump's second term, Bill Barr.

And this was basically Bill bars advice that you probably should do this because. the alternatives worse. Bill Barr, you know, he he. refused to go along with the election lies and trashed him in public. So I don't know what advice he might have for Todd Blanche, but his advice for Bill Cassidy seems to not have mentioned. Oh, by the way, Bill Trump's going to trash you anyway. We know what's going to happen. No, he's not going to express any gratitude for this.

Well, the other thing that's interesting to is Todd Blanche going to be asked. to deny lots of the election results in November as we hit the midterms? I mean, we saw this morning. that Trump himself, in an interview with Punchbowl News, basically said. that he knew that the Republicans were going to lose the House. Yes. And in fact, we have that clip, and it is very telling. And they're asking this question, and I've had some. great balls recently, real polls, but they're great polls.

If I don't run, will those people go out and vote? And that's the one thing I can't tell. I'm going to ask them to, but. I'm just watching guys like you and you're very talented people. The question is, will they vote? Because a lot of them are very angry. Everybody, to be honest with you. I don't know, I mean, they're angry Republicans, but they're not an interesting thing. Why? They're not angry at me, but they are angry at Republicans.

Everyone's always angry. And there are some why would they be angry at Republicans and not angry at him? Especially now he's got a stuck in this quagmire of a war in Iran. It's funny that you asked that, Joanna, because I've, you know, searched. search for that answer this morning as we were discussing it with. with our colleagues, with Dave Gardner, our brilliant D.C. correspondent. We can't think of any reason that any rational reason. that would support that, except that Trump cannot be blamed for anything.

Right? And he lives in his own world. I mean, if you're Donald Trump and you're provided with good news. all the time by Natalie Harp, the young blond woman who sticks to his side. And as Michael Wolff pointed out in All or Nothing, the Secret Service were anxious about her being a security risk because she, you know, had so much proximity to the president. She's supplying him with a never. ending torrent of good news and comments.

that he's getting on Truth Social from some of his more delusional posts. Well, we just did a hint of that in this clip when he says. real polls, the real polls are really bad. The real polls are scraping further down. When he says real polls, he obviously means the bogus, affection from the. outer fringes that you just hinted that I think he means maples. Those things that people dance around in the UK to celebrate the spring solstice.

Although I think if Trump was talking about polls that people dance around. Oh, it would be stripper bowls. That's a good, good segue, Hugh. Good segue. Just to go back to this, the sense of he knows, he knows. You heard it. There was a blue wave coming, and it is inescapable. We have had this morning again, this has been a big day of breaking news. One of the other big breaking news stories this morning was about jobs. And the president is basically.

in these elections is basically a referendum on the economy. Is the economy working for you? Well, this morning the economy lost. 23,000 jobs in the last month. The expectations from analysts where it was going to be above. going to be 85,000 new jobs were going to be created. Instead, we lost 23,000. And the Bureau of Labor Statistics had to revise down. the number of jobs they said had been created in May and June. So the economy isn't working.

That's what people we know of. All on. You were speaking to James Carville this week. It's the economy. It's the economy, stupid. And and prices are going up and up and mortgage. rates are organized and not move and cannot buy. People cannot move and cannot buy. And that's a that's reinforced everyday. People are in their houses when they're too small, when they long. to move to a different school area and they're stuck. Yes. And I think people feel stuck. People feel stuck when they're filling their car.

and they think, oh, I can't afford to take the family out. to dinner on Friday night now because this is just too much. All the small treats. people are beginning to cut from their lives just to cover the basics. And that has an impact on the quality of life, too. And you just heard Trump talk about these people. The people that voted for him might not vote for the Republicans. Well, there's a pretty good reason in all, you've just oh, you've just said that. they might not vote for the Republicans because they don't feel better off.

the Republicans themselves. The weird MAGA fringes were falling out this week, about $20 burritos. and $20 lots. That's a lot of money for a burrito. Well, that's two hours work. Yeah. You know, if you're on minimum wage, that's two hours. Hence what state you're on. Yeah, but in many states, yeah. Even be above two hours minimum wage work in some states. This this economy. We heard boosts this week from Scott Base and the Treasury secretary. that the economy was really roaring.

People were feeling the Trump bump that we don't. Well, his friends. Scott Besant and his billionaire friends are feeling that, I think I mean, from. that point of view, I don't think Scott Besson's out there testing the people. I think he's calling his friends who run big private equity companies. or the people that he was hanging out. before Donald Trump chose him to be Treasury secretary. And I don't think he's talking to, as we used to say in Britain, the common man. No, he's his friends are roaring because friends, the market, the markets.

roaring and the markets went up again a bit this morning, kind of level. pegging on the dough. But they didn't go down. You would think 100,000 fewer jobs than you were expecting. That's bad news. That's really bad news for people who need jobs. That's really bad news for people who are negotiating their wages. That's really bad news everywhere except on Wall Street, because the the analysts believe. that interest rates are going to get cut and that puts the markets up. So that's the reality in Donald Trump's mind and the people.

he speaks to in Scott Besson's mind, the people he speaks to. and the polls, the real polls, not the real polls, but the actual real polls say exactly the opposite. Which brings us to the blue wave that Trump is predicting for himself. Well, on Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, I have no particular truck with. But, you know, her daughters came to her and said, we cannot afford health care. Our subsidies have been taken away by the big, beautiful bill.

with then gone into Iran in a war that we can't seem to get rid of, billions of dollars. spent in a completely unnecessary war that Trump was warned against doing. because the Iranians would have the opportunity to take over. the Strait of Hormuz, something they had fantasized about doing. Americans had never given them the opportunity to do it, because. every previous president had said, oh, no, we're not opening that kind of worms. And Donald Trump, high from Venezuela, thinks he can go into a completely different situation and figure it out.

And the other thing that this this actually ties. straight back to the ballroom, because there are, as we have discussed. quite a few times, the white House is leaking, the white House isn't this unified, we're all winning. group of people that we we had at the start of this administration. There are leaks coming out everywhere. People are whispering about Trump, about being delusional, about the feelings. they're whispering to anybody that will listen, who would not listen to that?

Well, and I think it's possible that Donald Trump himself is leaking. Well, I mean, it's. very little doubt that no one calls more journalists than himself. And I discussed with Michael Wolff on Inside Trump's Head on Thursday. the fact that there was this piece suggesting that Pete Hegseth. had convinced Trump that going into Iran would be easy. So the white House pushing, as we know, Donald. Trump has done, pushed to be the face of the war. Yes, giving him someone to blame if it were to go wrong.

And of course, it has gone wrong. The Iranians know it's gone wrong. The Iranians know we have an election coming, and they are going to make it. as uncomfortable for Donald Trump as they possibly can. Yes. And we saw we learned again from these leaks this week. But there's furious confrontation at Camp David between Trump and now, I should say everybody involved has denied it. It's only fair to include their denials. But then Trump undercut the denial by saying this was a treasonous leak.

It's not a treasonous leak. If it's not true, it's not true. So right of a problem. And again, I hate to say it because I discussed this with Michael on Inside Trump's head also. But this is exactly what the royal family do. And exactly I mean, this is straight out of Princess Diana's playbook, and it's one of my favorite stories about her. And of course, we all remember the Andrew Morton book where she gave him.

tape after tape of her talking about the nightmare. of being married to then Prince Charles, now King Charles, and people. saying when the book came out saying, this is absolutely nonsense, this outrageous Andrew Morton should be arrested. Diana was the source of the disk. And this is what happens. And I think if you're outside the media, you don't always understand. that people leak stories ostensibly against themselves. They then come out as Diana would do. She would come out and say, I'm going to sue.

This is outrageous. You've destroyed my life. She was the source. And unless you're in the media fielding the different sources coming at you. with their version of the story, it's some it's. sometimes mind blowing to believe that people do this. Well, that's what politics is at its finest. And what you see is the people who are the arch manipulators. We've all had calls from people and and they're calling to put their side. of the story out because they know someone else is briefing against them.

Lindsey Graham, the late Lindsey Graham was possibly one of the best people at doing this. He was busy sucking up to Trump on the one hand, and then frantically. giving anti-Trump stories to journalists on the other. Well, there's every you know, there's every motivation for everybody. to leak now. And I'm at the start of this because it's failing, because it's. because it's feeling. I mean, the latest leak this morning is about the ballroom. and about the creation of a new reality in DC that's covered in gold.

And it's from a Trump insider who describes this as he concentrates. on the hobbies that distract from the terrible polling numbers, and calling these things hobbies is deliberately belittling. It'll get back to Trump. You'll be annoyed, but these people want that out there. so that they are not blamed by the other Republicans for all these problems. Well, and also, half the cabin are thinking about their own future. Are they going to run?

Like how if Pete is blamed for the war, how does he run? When does he separate himself? JD Vance already separated himself. The one message that comes out of change, the best selling book by Maggie. Haberman and Jonathan Swan, is that JD Vance did not support the war. He was the real one. that did not support the war, and he wants to be able to separate himself. So when he runs, he's got a differentiation. And we all remember that terrible moment for Kamala Harris.

when she's on The View and people say, what would you have done differently to Joe Biden? And she doesn't differentiate herself. She can't separate from him because she's too close to him. And she she's not. Frankly, she wasn't quick enough on her feet to come up with something. that would have given her some would have separated. Yes. And it's obvious that JD Vance is lizard. Brain has kicked in here, and he knows when he goes on the view. to answer that question that he has an answer.

He's going to say, I was very public about my views on the war. I had to go along with it. But it wasn't me. It was Pete, it was Markle. It was anybody else was running and it certainly wasn't me. And then he does. The thing about. I have to be loyal to the president, so it's my job to try and execute it as best. I can. I have to go and try and negotiate a ceasefire in Iran. I was referring to every tire, right? But in fact, it wasn't it wasn't something that I actually agree. And it was Pete who pushed it. It was Marco who pushed it. Right? It was the deep state who pushed it.

He will find people. But this is really real. We're in a crystal ball situation here that we can see from these leaks. What's going to be talked about in two years time, around this. time, two years time and start sooner than that. I think it's already begun. It's already begun. The lame duck is completely evident. And actually, James Carville, who. we interviewed on the Daily Beast podcast this week, was very thoughtful about this. when he said that Trump will know what will not know. what's hit him when he loses Congress, assuming he does,

assuming he loses the House of Representatives, it's. just power evaporates and everybody moves to who is the new center. We do actually have a bit of a clue about what. Trump is thinking from this interview with Punchbowl this morning, okay. And we are going to play that clip. because I think you're going to be interested in it. Right? Let's hear it. Let's hear it. Do you want to serve another term as leader. Do you think would you support him? Well, I don't want to get into that. It's early, but why? A lot of people are thinking about this is a big issue.

I get along with him. It's unfortunate that he doesn't have the vote. Does he get on with John? So I know Johanna, Republican leader of the Senate who's granite. Jordan should run for president because he looks from central casting. I don't think Donald. Trump knows what to do with John Thune because he is central casting. And I'm sure Trump looks at him and thinks he should be president, not me. Except he's not doesn't have the votes. We just have to have the vote intriguingly. Well, we know we now know from that that Trump has some insight into what.

what will happen when he if he loses both, both the House and the Senate. He knows that there's going to be a lot of things going against him. Also. in that interview, he completely reversed himself on Hakeem Jeffries, right? He had him. Jeffries, who he said he couldn't remember. He didn't know who he was, didn't know who he was, called him like. and called him a thug, which is clearly racially so. Posted on Truth Social a picture of him without sombreros,

and then a series of memes of him and Chuck Schumer. as a mariachi band to try to claim that they were flooding the country with them. You know, with immigrants, we all get the idea. But suddenly, oh, no, no, no. He's a nice guy, great guy, great guy, could do business with him. And of course, you know, this is this is Trump back in his New York ways. He'll do business with anybody. But this that's not how this is going to work. This is a Democratic party that is battered. It's troubled. But if Hakeem Jeffries is the man in the speaker's chair,

he that all that sense of this party being in crisis. is going to be much, much less obvious. And Donald Trump's going to have to do business with them. But Hakeem Jeffries get to set the terms. Nice guy or not, we will wait and see. But here we have some insight from Trump about what he thinks is going to happen. No, the reason I highlight John Thune is. because he obviously once wrote of John Thune, he hates them.

You know, there's no they're right. They hate each other. You couldn't get more different. Right? And also, John Thune has been the blocker. to Trump desperately trying to get his Save America. And John Thune says we're not going to blow up the filibuster. We don't have the votes to blow up the filibuster. He is putting himself in the way for his his his caucus behind him. There are more people in that group that don't want to blow up the filibuster. than admit to it. And there are people that don't want to give in to the Save America Act. And they don't want Donald Trump to have his own way.

And they are holding out now. I think they're doing it secretly, and of course, because they're terrified of being primaried. But the primary is intriguing thing because you wouldn't believe this, Joanna. But John Thune might face a primary. You might have to go and register in South Dakota to help prop up. I would do that. I like John Thune. I don't know why I like him. because he's just more presidential than I don't like his policies. But I like this kind of look. It isn't absolutely dropping development as to who might primary John Thune.

It is Corey. Corey Lewandowski, the. alleged lover of Kristi Noem. Yes. Kristi Noem is the former governor, of course, South Dakota, she still has a house there. She is divorcing Brian, her husband, who got caught in an unfortunate bimbo. Felicia. All remember the bimbo? We do I. In fact, I bought some pink balloons into the studio. to tell Michael about it because he'd never heard Michael Wolff. He'd never heard of Bimbo Vacation.

I don't think anybody I didn't I mean, I don't know about you, but it was all news to me when I read about we all these things. Actually, even at Cosmo, I don't think we'd come across men sticking. balloons up their sweaters and pretending they were big breasted bimbos. That was a strange one, but who knows? You know, there's a place for everybody. Kristi Noem is divorcing Brian Norm and. she and Korea and Dusky. We must miss the plane.

Do you remember? They were flying around. Who was not department? Homeland Security's plane? Yes. And that must have been fun. They had their own room. Apparently. It was very swish. We did a lot of reporting. on screen right now for those who are watching on YouTube. This is the flying boudoir, right? And of course, he was actually spotted by a Daily Beast reporter. taking out the trash from her apartment one Sunday evening in D.C.. I think he was, which may have been the first thing that triggered people.

to the fact that they were more than advising each other. Yes. And he continues to deny that he is married. He's a father of four. He's a family in New Hampshire, but he has a troubled history with women. He has troubled history with women. He's a public fight with his former lover, Hope Hicks, in front of the Trump. Tower back in 2016, which, I mean, that's an Ian ago. There have been other stories about how I report a complaint against him. because he'd sort of grabbed her. Yes. There was an allegation of sexual harassment at a fundraiser back.

in the first at the end of the first Trump administration. There's been allegations. The reason I mentioned that he has denied this, this affair, is that he is now threatening to primary John Thune in South Dakota, where he does not live, or else would bring him to South Dakota. An intriguing question, Cory. If you want to get in touch, I know we've asked for comment. from your Daily Beast, but please. Well, Kristi Noem has a farm there where she once famously shot her dog Cricket.

A puppy, in fact. Yes, she's staying in South Dakota because she has to look after the farm, which I'm assuming in the divorce she gets most of. because I think it was in her family when they got married. So Corey's looking for a reason to spend more time in South Dakota. Johnson seat might be. And I'm assuming he might get Trump's endorsement. Well, that's over. John Thune I think that's very much what he's. what he's thinking here, that this endorsement is available.

I mean, we just heard from the president himself that's not. somebody who's going to endorse John Thune if he can avoid it. So just to be clear, is this he would be primaried in 2026. Yes. John Thune so I know in 2028, John Thune so is is it's a threat. It's a through John. It's a hanging dagger. Do not do what I want. You will be primaried possibly by Cory or maybe other people, maybe others. And would Kristi Noem herself? Well, it's actually not.

It's weird. Within the realms of possibility. And Kristi Noem had ambitions to be vice president. You will remember that she pretty much admitted that in her book, and she thinks that she is up for higher office at the moment. All she is a special envoy to the shield of the Americas, which we followed closely at the Daily Beast. But why not? Everybody gets up and thinks, good morning. Well, and also she did. Madam president. Right. She did spend quarter of $1 billion on an ad campaign.

In theory, to warn off. would be illegal immigrants from coming here because they would be caught, thrown in jail and shipped back to where they came from. But in fact, I think as once again, John Kennedy. from Louisiana pointed out, did the president know you'd spend this money? No, of course not. Even though she said that he did, because really, this was an ad campaign. for Christina. Yeah. And she's also,

I think, looking to 20, 28 and thinking it's time for a woman president. I've got great hair extensions. I spend a lot of time spending, you know, getting my teeth done. I could be central casting for the first female president. Why don't I take a run at it? I think that is a very. It's actually a very serious possibility. I'll just see this as a sort of vibe measure, which is which is possible to make, a readership at The Daily Beast are fascinated by Kristi Noem. They continue to be engaged in stories on her.

No, I don't think our readers are anything other than fair. minded observers of the political scene on social media. Kristi Noem remains a popular figure. Or in the MAGA right, the engagement on Kristi Noem posts. and Kristi Noem tweets and all that sort of thing is way higher than anyone else. JD Vance, Marco Rubio, forget that Kristi Noem gets engagement. And, you know, that's where Donald Trump kind of rose from. So the sense in which this is somebody that has.

some of the things that would be helpful to run for president as a Republican. Oh, absolutely. I think Mark your calendar. And we could see Senator and President Norm. Oh, that's a bold prediction. What a way to go into the weekend. Well, you've missed one thing, though. They were talking about the Senate. The Senate's make up course will change in the new year. But the Senate's makeup. has been changing pretty rapidly just in the last few weeks. Because I know what you're going to say.

Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell is out of rehab. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, that's very good news for the senator and his wife. I'm glad they're out of rehab because that's a horrid place to spend 53 days. Yes. Despite the fact you didn't really tell us what was going on. Did you? And even the governor of Kentucky, the mild mannered Andy. Beshear, rose to his full power to demand to know what was going on. And even actually, other senators were saying Republican. senators, even senators, what's happening with McConnell?

And we know there's no love lost between Mitch. McConnell and Donald Trump, but Mitch McConnell doesn't appear well enough, as far as we know, to actually be counted as a vote for Todd. Well, interestingly, there's a big sigh of relief. being breathed everywhere in the Republican Party and capital. and in the white House, because if Bill Cassidy had gone. the other direction, then there was an available vote. that would have got you to 5050 and then a tie break by JD Vance. And that of the vote was Mitch McConnell.

And, well, is it capable of voting? We don't know. We still don't know. Well, we still haven't had video proof. Absolutely no video is fine. It's had is outside his house. It was outside the hospital. No it's outside the house that we have to take. in good faith as proof that he is in fact, there. We also have the word of his tenant, the word of his tenant. A very bizarre, also outgoing, retiring. Senator Tom Tillis.

Tom, I don't know why. he's got the H in there, although I rather like the H in there. Tom Filth isn't my game. It's borrowed from Carolina, right? North Carolina, very conservative senator who's just had enough. is retiring former management consultant. Yes. He's going off to make more money because he's only 66. Yes. And he's writing a book. So stay tuned. He's writing a book. This is supposed to be a tell all memoir. Tom's right. And and really about how obsequious and ineffective.

several members of the cabinet. And he has been a really public enemy of these of these cabinet members. He doesn't blame Trump people aims the cabinet. No, of course, others might say who created the cabinet? Donald Trump. But Tom Taylor's gives Trump pass often and says, oh, it's all the cabinet members. Well, and he says that he's writing the book. because he really wants the Republicans to win the House of Representatives. So this book is supportive of the fact that Republicans are still great,

but just the current cabinet is not doing enough. Yes, I'm actually kind of going to read that book. Oh, I think however it's written, it's going to be fascinating. because it's fascinating either for what it says or what it doesn't say. Right. And insider accounts are always interesting. What we really want from him as an insider account. of being Mitch McConnell's tenant, he's in a carriage house round the back. for which he paid the tenant, see? Right. For which he pays 50,000. Yeah. Possibly we don't. We know that in the previous year, it was rented out.

It made $50,000 for Mitch McConnell because he has to declare. these sources of income. So we would assume that it's the same. I don't know what he's giving discounts for friends, which possible, but it's a very strange tale. I can I mean, you. perhaps they have sort of. potlucks together where Tom scampers up the stairs to Mitch, or at least when Mitch was in residence there and healthy and says, hey, what should we have tonight?

And they sit and discuss things. But, you know, in this image of they're both wearing pajamas and like, sort of, oh, they're having a slumber caps. Yeah. Republican senatorial slumber party, I think. And I oh, who should be over John Thune. No, don't invite you. No, no, I think they would be invited. John Thune because John, you I mean, don't forget Mitch McConnell mentor. John. That's true. I think you're right. They would have John Field trip Trump up. How can we cost Trump? Ted Cruz no, I don't think anybody likes Ted Cruz, do they?

I think he's a loner. Loner, Ted. Yes. Yeah. He's not a party guy. He's not a slumber party. I can't see him as lumber party. No. Interesting. Interesting question. We can see the database, of course. Found him on vacation and Athens. That's right. When Texas was being flooded. So, you know, it might not be a slumber party. Well, we know the guys remember to go to Mexico. Mexico? Yeah. He's a guy that likes he's he's hanging out with. Exactly. He's a global traveler.

Have bag will travel largely out of my state of Texas. Oh. He's always ready to head ready. Ted. And I just say just, you know, to finish our discussion about Mitch. at the Daily Beast, we have a brilliant graphics of Primo was with Brockway, calculated, what does 53 days mean in other units? We all know the Scaramucci the unit of time, right. 11 days is he was missing for 5.3.

Scaramucci. we will remember Liz Truss, who was the British prime minister who couldn't outlast the lettuce. Right? That's right. The The Star newspaper had a lettuce ahead of lettuce, which they just ran a live video on and just said, which will. last longer, Liz Truss as prime minister or this head of lettuce. And it was like lettuce for cyclists. It was. That's true. Nobody recyclable. Nobody rescued it. 1.08 Liz Truss's. Yeah.

And among the other metrics, I thought this was bad taste, but I did take the point. The Titan submersible, the search for the title submersible. We all remember how long that search seemed and how desperate, desperately hoping they would find the people in there. And I'll just point out that there was a search, and there has been a search for Mitch McConnell, and I don't think it's actually over the search. Joanna, I'll just say, stay tuned to The Daily Beast.

We are still reporting. on what's the truth about Mitch McConnell, because we don't have any videos. We still don't know. We know people have talked to him, which is what people say. I've spoken to Mitch McConnell. We don't know if Mitch McConnell spoke back. Yes. We don't know if Mitch McConnell spoke about. we do know that something very odd, and we have reported on this. extensively, was going on on top of Donald Trump's head. Now, what was it? I don't know, I thought it looked like a squirrel. Other people have said, no, no, it was a fox.

A few people have said hamster, which I also thought initially. at the beginning it was a different color to his normal hair. So that was on when Wednesday. By Thursday it was back to normal, which is a sort of translucent color. Yes, often with a kind of slight layer of purple, which I recognize because occasionally if I wash my hair with a purple shampoo, I get that translucent purple blue to a warning for us all. a blue plate special, I think a blue rinse.

I think it's called the blue rinse, hence the blue part. Yes, it was quite a remarkable, remarkable hair week. And I know you discussed this with Michael Wolff, and he gave a brilliantly insightful guide into what's going on up there. And each hair, each case with enormous care. My concern is it just needs fire retardant. That thing looks like it would go up within a hundred yards. of a match being struck. It's just like, oh my goodness. Which makes it even crazier that this building works. going on around the corner from the Oval Office. And there's always an open sparks flames welding.

Don't go near it. Don't go near it. Those judges are doing him a favor. Well, they need to build the hospital as fast as possible in case he gets scalp. Oh, yes. Well, is that a procedure that's going to be at this military hospital? Who knows? Scalp supplements. If you don't, we will be back to reports. We will. And I do remember that Jeffrey Epstein told Michael Wolff that Donald Trump. had a scalp reduction once he understood that he was going bald. He had a scalp production, which I'm assuming makes the hair.

transplant or whatever the weave is going on. more effective, less space to cover. Well, he's got so much space to cover. No, he's getting the East Wing. He's got an East wing. He's got an entire east west. Good luck to the architect. I'm so excited to share with you. Now the conversation I had with Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. He is the senior associate dean for leadership. studies at the Yale School of Management.

And this is the final installment of our America. 250 series, produced in partnership with PMI, us, US businesses of Philip. Morris international, as part of its year long initiative to celebrate. and accelerate American innovation and reinvention. We're looking ahead. to the next 250 years of America reacting directly to your comments. And Jeffrey and I had a fascinating conversation about the future. of education. Let's dive right in.

Jeffrey, one of the questions. I bet you get a lot, and I know friends of mine ask all the time is, is there any point still sending kids. to college in the age of AI? What is the future of AI and education? No, absolutely. The universities do not have a monopoly on repositories of knowledge in AI. This is a bit of a of a mystique right now. Wherever university to recruit students thinks they have to brand them.

as AI certified somehow, and they come out of the factory. And that we don't have, you know, departments. that are departments of AI, electrical engineering, the computer science, applied math. These are not AI. degrees of their foundational was like. having to know how a bubble memory worked 50 years ago to use a telephone. You don't need to know that level of technical details. Right.

But there's new programing, new software coming out all the time. And that's where the the AI advantage is. And schools right now are trying to act like they somehow have some intellectual. departments that are the AI branded departments. That's just not the case. But we do teach you how to think, which is very important, how to ask questions. And it's something which I know is very important to you. As somebody who's been a big champion. of the of the humanities as well, is asking the right questions. And that's really where the university makes a difference.

So this is very interesting because Dick Costello came on. this very interview series two weeks ago and said he thought. that AI spelled the end of thinking and that the problem was. it was so much easier to use. AI than it was actually to think your way through a complex problem. Why would anybody bother to try? Do you think a college education is going to remain as valid as it has been? The old cliche about taking a horse to water but you can't make a drink.

Yes, the AI brings you data, but it doesn't make you think as opposed to make you drink. There's a something just came out today in Business Insider. if it's okay to mention them, is a very interesting study. of executive recruiters saying, oh, we can replace much of what we do with AI. And they found out. they can't get people to accept the position. because it's the relationship that matters, matching the person. with the culture. and the company and the character and the personality of the backgrounds. And so that it matching doesn't really make the chemistry happen.

And, you know, a dating app, it doesn't it doesn't make the couple work. It sort of brings parties together. So no, I think it's tremendous value added, value added. The real concern right now is 70% of college presidents have told us. just recently that they are worried that they don't know. how to prepare students for AI in an equal number, tell us that. they're most worried not about them getting pink slips later in their career, but just getting that first job.

Ironically, some of the hardest students to place right now. are computer science students. Even harder. than humanity students software jobs, coders are disappearing, right? So a lot of the advice that we were often giving people to somehow chase this, you know, this golden fleece of technology to be your solution for a great life, great career. That's not quite it. But learning how to think is the role of the university. And that's where there still is a great value added universities are, you know, to. this nation, are one of the few sectors where we have a positive trade balance.

You name all the major developments, whether or not it's in life. sciences and mRNA or anything having to do. with cryptocurrency or the cloud or, or of course, AI itself. It comes from the university at the root. That's where it makes the big difference. So if you want to be on that frontier, that's great. But there are an awful lot of people that will be needed in skilled. trade positions. AI will not be changing the way a plumber or electricity, or many auto mechanics that have their job enhanced with AI tools.

They're still fundamentally there to have to. actually put their hands on the equipment and make a difference. And if you're not oriented towards wanting to get into that of. a, you know, a knowledge based field, then you don't need to go off. And not everybody needs to go to college. No, but those who do, we still see there's a giant advantage and, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. in terms of a difference of of wealth over a period of time. But it's also what a college brings you in terms of quality of life.

for perspective and cultural views and things like that, that there's a certain enrichment in how you you look at the life you lead. Do you think the humanities. are going to reassert themselves as value add in college? Because to your point, it feels like everybody's being driven towards computer. studies and tech degrees and, you know, simply the pleasure. of reading and the power of reading has been overlooked. And the classics, I mean, other classics going to come back.

I think there's a real surge of it. We see that a lot of studies that have been taking a look. at the value of liberal arts education, we've seen a surge of interest. Now there is what is the surge, is that actually people applying. to do the courses, or people wanting to take the courses and realizing. that that perspective matters and makes a difference. And it isn't simple technical formulas that are going to lead. to the ideal career and the ideal life. There are vocational schools, and that's quite valuable.

But most universities aren't set up as a vocational school. They are set up to to teach people how to think. And that's, you know, we've seen that just in the last five years, 64. colleges and universities shut down and 64, 64, 16 just in New England. And and that has led to questions. about the endowments that how the money is spent. and what's available there and that the pressure on them.

But it is somebody having to do with the, as they call it, the demographic cliff. is that we've seen a 15% drop in kids that are 18 years old at a college age. and just in the northeast, we've had a 7% drop in people applying to schools. But at the same time, with all that doom and gloom, we've seen that the great schools, the really top schools, we've seen a 20% surge in applications there. So there are people moving. towards Ivy leagues, people moving towards liberal arts, people moving.

towards places that are not necessarily looking at a higher education. As a vocational school. The vocational schools are great. We need more of them and is a fork in the road as people make a choice. But the people who are electing to go into into higher education are moving towards. fields where it's something to do with perspective as opposed to tool driven. So. are you expecting a new series. of vocational colleges to.

to come into being then? I mean, where do people get this vocational training? I mean, I know in, you know, in Europe you're much. more likely to get this kind of training on the job. Plumbers have apprentices, electricians have apprentices. It's a very different sort of system there and here because. universities are such profitable places for the most part. Obviously not the 16 that just closed down in New England, but for the most part they are profit centers.

Do you think that our colleges or universities. are more likely to offer shorter vocational training courses? No, it's suppose I don't believe so. I believe John is going to be a second category. that will see a growth of vocational schools and schools. that will be in a different path that people take. So if you're going into higher education, there had been such a premium. on in the 1960s and in the 70s, pushing a lot of people towards higher education.

that maybe shouldn't have gone there. So in addition to the baby boom leading to expansion. of a number of campuses, we also saw there is a societal pressure, a cultural pressure for somehow getting a college degree. Well, that wasn't necessary for all. And it's led to some of the blowback we've seen that we have seen that a people. who had a great deal of respect for high education, we've seen it. fall from numbers in the 60s to now, numbers in the high 30s, that that has fallen in part because too many people were pushed in.

that direction where it didn't make sense for them. We also have had an intellectual tradition, as you know, since Richard Hofstadter, the historian, reminded us of this. Since the late 40s and 1950s, there always has been about 20%. of the United States that has an intellectual sense of populist. sense of wanting to attack institutions and not to politicize our discussion. But we do see that the manga movement has been attacking as a as populist. Will any institution from religion to.

to the justice system to the military and education. has been another victim of MAGA attacks on institution life. And so that's why some have worried a little bit about it. But there's a little bit of the of a, you know, a blaming of the victim there. where we've seen some fall off in trust and higher education. due to political attacks that see higher education as a threat. So one of the first things Donald Trump did when he came into office.

in his second administration was to go after Harvard. And one of his most effective tools was having Harvard. alum go after their old, their old college. Has there been an impact on on the Ivy League with the MAGA attack on it, and in particular Donald Trump, who seemed so proud to have gone to Wharton? I mean, he went to Fordham first, but then he transferred to Wharton, and he talks constantly about having gone to the Ivy League himself. His kids also went there.

What has been the impact? Well, the, the there certainly are some questions raised about that. are fair questions to ask about some of the governance practices of universities? There were some issues having to do with what the research focus is. In some universities. I when it comes to Wharton in particular, I was just on a panel yesterday. with their dean, who is excellent, Erica James, the dean at Wharton. We couldn't offer her enough to leak whatever Donald Trump's transcript was. So I'm longing to read his transcript.

No, but we probably could guess that it was not going to be Road. Scholar material. However, there were governance practices at his old alma mater. at University of Pennsylvania, their governance practices at Harvard. before, under Claudian, gay issues about the integrity of her research, but also just about the way student tolerance. was on campus and the orientation of some of the faculty there. Fair questions to ask, however, to try to because there are questions.

of of anti-Islamic or anti. anti-Semitic sentiments, does that mean. There isn't a way to address it without shutting down your IT research. and shutting down your cancer research and your Alzheimer studies and things. It was the old pervert sledgehammer to kill Annette. And as it turns out, those universities Penn, Columbia, especially Harvard, did a fantastic job of changing their governance, made it much more transparent. They changed out the leadership of those schools, and they brought in people.

that did a much, much better job, but they're still being punished for it. We saw that Donald Trump has attacked 64 universities. in the spring of last year, but and they came out unfortunately, as we saw many professions, from the clergy to CEOs that have become. cowardly to speak out in this notion of institutional neutrality, which is a. cover for. cowardice, it's something that was created. You'll hear this first. It's not been discussed anywhere in any media.

It was a political roost. At the University of Chicago is the Berkeley Free Speech. movement was in 1964 to 1965, which was speaking out on civil rights. and speaking out against the Vietnam War in Vietnam. University of California, Berkeley, stopped all that discussion. on campus that we can't have political demonstrations on campus, which led to the Berkeley Free Speech Movement challenging it. The president, the chancellor of Berkeley, who became the president, University of California Clark Kerr, championed. that they came out with something called the Muscatine Report.

English professor Charles Muscatine. As soon as that report came out, Ronald Reagan was elected governor in California. The first thing he did as governor in the in. January of 1967 was to fire Clark Kerr, who said, I leave here much the way I came fired with enthusiasm. He was a great leader. But then what Chicago did was very nervous. Chicago president Charles Beadle, who was a geneticist and just didn't. want to get involved in this, put this a law professor,

Harry Calvin, in charge of a commission. that did a rushed study that said, oh, we don't get involved in politics at all. It was a complete political response and say, well, universities shouldn't. take positions. In fact, that's how it's interpreted. But even the Calvin Report says in the middle of it, unless the values of the university are at risk, so they should speak out. So we use that despite these trustees two years ago. telling there a year and a half ago now telling their presidents. not to speak out because universities should not have particular positions,

they should be a home for all positions, which is nonsense. We got we got 700 college and university presidents to defy their trustees. and fire back angry joint letters at the white House. And you know what happened with that kind of collective action? It stopped all these edicts out of the Oval Office against higher education, stopped much that we saw when Mark Carney to make a huge, influential leave here. Mark Carney is a prime minister of Canada, and we saw the EU. and the UK over this Greenland nonsense finally get courage and bark back.

Trump moved on is that they need collective action. and the advice of the universities is very important. They need to defend themselves on research fronts. There's some crazy stuff that happens and you can see. we just as I was just at a conference for the Academy of Management, I in terms of what we focus on in my own field, what we focus on, maybe in higher education in general, you could see that almost every study. in all these different fields, from history to political science.

to, you know, English literature, die. Have to admit, it's like most of the papers. presented in this summer's conferences are on die. Regarding, well, what are the things could they do? Well, just looking at a management school. Well, why would die dominate the academic conference agenda? Is that as a result there are different reaction to MAGA? Or is it just it had been going down that trend. For example, if we take a look at what the my own field of management,

26,000 management professors getting together for a conference, we could have looked at what is that called. There must be a funny collective noun for 26 talking at each other. We talk at each other. It's called the Academy of Management with Global Scholars. If you put together all everybody studying corporate governance, turnaround. management, corporate culture, change management, recruiting, hiring things, you think you've studied a business goal, it's still doesn't equal what has been.

The papers that are in die. Sometimes the balance just demography is very important. But other things need to be studied too. So universities need to wrestle with. how do you get the right balance and what's studied, what's researched. But right now the secretary of Education that D-I comes out. as 28% and global competitiveness and geo economics comes out 6%. Six isn't that at a business for business scholars? Now, you're the first person to see this data.

We just ran it for you today. And it's going through, what, 10,000 papers that just came out this weekend. And look at the focus. So we need to maybe address the balance. That doesn't mean that we kill it with a sledgehammer. We don't need the federal government. to tell us what to study or who should be admitted to school. By using holistic criteria, we need diverse cultural components. to be on a college campus. to learn from each other as long as they meet merit criteria. But right now, the Secretary of Education just yesterday came out with a statement.

saying we need if universities are going to get funded. by the federal government, they have to buy into these criteria. about what's studied, who's hired, who's admitted to be students in the school. And and that's just wrong. There are problems to address, just like there were with anti-Semitism. or anti-Islamic at the or whatever. These things have to be addressed or plagiarism in school. You can address them by good governance practices. You don't need the federal government. to have some tyrant telling us what's permissible and what's not.

So the universities have become a convenient target. So your opening question should parents send their kids. into cauldrons of ideological battlegrounds? Yes. Still keep sending them if they're interested. in learning about ideas, if they're interested in learning. about vocational trades and tools, then go down that path. Everybody doesn't have to go off, you know, to become an AI. engineer or whatever. We've got questions from viewers. One person here is saying the entire university system.

stopped being about education 20 years ago. It's now a hedge fund attached to luxury real estate. You know, people love to say that for. everybody from Groucho Marx in I think it was Horse. Feathers, was this movie right through Rodney Dangerfield. Doing Back to school. is the pomposity of higher education is a very seductive target. People love to go after it, just like we have seen though the the military.

or the Justice Department or the clergy or any institution under attack. These days, universities get attacked very quickly. But that's really nonsense, is we we. we saw also this week a spate of lawsuits that went up that were. against university. trustees who were tapping into that supposed hedge fund. to try to keep their schools alive, to use that money for operating funds. But that money was specified for particular causes for particular types.

of research, right? So they don't have the flexibility and the freedom legally to divert, to divert that into anything. But if you're concerned about. the cost of higher education, what the schools who have those endowments. that has those hedge funds, they're making education either. almost or free or certainly without there isn't anybody that goes to an elite. school, that goes to an Ivy League school or a liberal arts school. There should be leaving with any debt. Now that's a huge change. That's because these endowments keep the tuition down.

If you look at the sticker price on schools, it looks like, wow, that's a lot of money for tuition. It's perfectly McKinsey just finished a study on this. You know the first year about this too. So timely. It's brand new. Good. We like to just showed that in fact, it's kept pace with the cost of living. that has not gone higher than than inflation has gone. the cost of higher education. But on top of that that's just the sticker price. What actually people pay. It's less than inflation.

And in certain cases and also in student debt, it's lower. than it's been in 15 years, the magnitude of student debt. But that's not the popular reality. People get caught on these things because it is a sort of a a glib, catchy. way to attack a university is to call it a hedge fund, because who likes hedge funds these days? Well, that's true, although I will say is the parent who has put two sons through college. It is very expensive and it's much more expensive here than it is in Europe. In Germany you can go to university free.

In England it's a third of the price that it is here. Well, we do have administrative bloat that's become an issue. Many studies seem to suggest that we increase at grade schools. We seem to increase the student body incrementally, and we increase the faculty size arithmetically. And staff grows up geometrically. Anybody who's hired to be a doer one day.

a week later, two weeks later, becomes a manager of three other doors. Nothing gets sunset in universities. So in terms of the role of AI, we have challenges for what we do. in the classroom and challenges for how we calibrate what's original work. You know, it's not stolen, distilled as we say. We don't say plagiarism anymore. We say distilled. Oh, you do. Well, that's what the techies. use it now when they steal from each other's platforms. Of course. And we're worried about AI's consequence for for jobs, for early career.

But we also need to think what AI means for the back room of bringing efficiency. into university. It should be freeing up more time. So I have to admit, that's a very good point and a very good question. The cost still could be lower, and when we take a look. at what happens in Europe, and yet this is the sector. where the productivity here towers the scientific. output in terms of Nobel Prizes. The flow of students here is not from here to Europe for the most part or Asia,

but it's to the United States, is that this is a a, you know, a huge. And by the way, the people who tend to achieve don't have to go on to Ivy League schools. 81% of the 300 largest tech founders, 81% didn't go to Ivy or Ivy plus schools. Is that what we see is that people who just. graduated college, whatever kind of college, it made a difference. But then plenty of people like Michael Dell or Mark Zuckerberg.

or Bill gates that didn't graduate college at all, they started. college, got the ideas, and then just left to launch their businesses. Right. Although they went to Ivy League colleges, it wasn't I mean, I mean, the ultimate. trophy is to go to an Ivy League college and then leave it and not get the degree. Right. Well, for those guys, they did. Yeah. All right. So so let me take you on to another point, which I, I love this comment. We need to make media literacy mandatory in every single grade. Today's kids get their news from TikTok influences and deepfakes.

If we don't teach them how to spot misinformation, democracy is completely doomed. Thoughts? Oh, thoughts. I love that question so much of this. Microphone one here I would reach over and hug you. Maybe I'll do it anyway is because that. kind of bookends an early question you had. We talked about flight, the quality in terms of institutions. This has to do with flight to quality in terms of information. more broadly is why does The Daily Beast?

I don't mean to be pandering, do so well, as people have come to trust. what it represents is supposed to things that just seem to be coming. and going on people's blogs out there, is that it is. It is branded content that you can trust. And what we're seeing with the. the confluence of so much information is how do you break through it? Well, this is one of the reasons that Donald Trump is the sultan of insult. As we've talked about earlier, he does that to break through the kaleidoscope of information out there.

He gets attention by insulting people and breaks through. How do you get through in a more reasonable way with information? You can trust that it's not just offending people. To get attention is to have branded sources. And that's where you need media. That's not just sort of people inventing something on TikTok, putting it out there. and getting caught up in an echo chamber of referencing it. Branded media really matters is going to become more and more important. I think you know, Steve Brill's work, of course, as news is very important.

for helping to brand sources, because what it says is. what is from Daily Beast, what's from The New York Times, what's from the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal that could be trusted. And we all make mistakes, but they correct it, too. Okay, good. Well, I like that answer. All right. So a question the only answer you like. No, I liked other ones too. All right. We've been talking for an hour and a half or 2.5 hours day for 2.5 hours. All of the essays and homework kids submit now are just written by ChatGPT.

They aren't learning how to think critically or write anymore. How do we even fix this? And then another question. I think AI in the classroom can actually be helpful. if we use it to take away the busy work and let teachers. actually teach students in a one on one ratio. I have an editor for another magazine that I write for. If I if I knew you better and I would, and we were just talking off the record, I'd tell you it was fortune magazine who uses AI a lot to edit material.

And he's admitted to me he's the the the business editor for fortune, which you would think, what else is there? Unfortunate, but there is apparently other things. He said. It's that my work defies AI editing, and I'm very, very proud of that, is that if you're putting together with a truly different approach, which what universities should do is to help you not just source information, but to find unusual patterns with lateral thinking. Yeah, there's a lot of good analytic vertical thinking,

but then there is lateral thinking, which is finding relationships. between seemingly unrelated things that a really good paper should come up with. I tell my students at final exams, you could use whatever you want open. book, computer, AI, whatever you want, and, and, and, and I'm not concerned because I just know that I'm going to give them questions. It would just be impossible for a sane person. to think of those questions for a rational thinking system, to be able.

to put those pieces together, it's going to be often. not to give it away for next year's exams, but sometimes there'll be a strong. personal component to answering a question, comparing it to panels we've had in class and readings we've had, and it was the right kind of and breaking news events. It's impossible to have so many different types of inputs. that could be integrated in a way. that that was created, that moment for that student to do that, any AI model could be trained to give that back to you. Yeah.

If you are going in for a radiology exam, radiologists perhaps are in trouble. because there's a certain repetitive pattern of looking for what. the broken bone is or what the organ is that's malfunctioning. If it's a CT scan or something like that is, I can see that there are areas, but if it's something that's truly novel, the human body is not that novel. We have perhaps some new dread diseases and viruses that come along, but for the most part, finding systemic problems is not going to be novel. But if we create novel information, those papers should be not.

It should not be a problem. So. So let me ask you something then. Final question. Do you think your your students are better. educated now than they were 15 years ago? Well, you. know, we've had a problem in higher education for a long time. If you go back 80 years. and to the Baltimore Sun, somebody in your line of work, H.L. Mencken, said, great old universities like my own, tend to teach.

living languages as if they were dead, and dead languages as if they were alive. Right? We have had this problem for a long time, and it's not an AI issue. It's not technological disruption. It's not the disparagement of higher education. It is. It is to not think of education as a religion. Religions have a stable, static quality to them. Education needs to keep learning and growing. But like any profession, we can get lazy and just put it on cruise control. So I think that's such a poignant close.

Thank you. Thank you again to Geoffrey Son. from the Yale School of Management for joining me. And thank you. If you have been watching. Don't forget, you can subscribe to The Daily Beast, smash. the subscription button wherever you get your podcasts. And a big thank you to our production team John Romero, Brian Murray, Rachel Passa, Heather Pissarro, and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now.

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