I’ve Seen Trump Up Close. Why I Know He’s Failing | The Daily Beast Podcast

Isn't interesting that The New York Times has delved into this. There was so much hand-wringing over, over approaching it, during the Biden years, and they got so much flack for it. And there was a question of when, when is somebody going to really tackle, Donald Trump's, slowing down because you can see it. He is different than he was. He doesn't have the same amount of energy. He's not as coherent as he used to be. He's always been not entirely coherent, but it's different now. He's slower. His speech is slower.

You can see him falling asleep sometimes, or appearing to fall and fall. asleep in the Oval Office, I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And today we have the host of Katy Tur Reports. Katy Tur, you will remember, really made her name during the first Trump election. She was assigned to cover him. The assumption was that he was a joke of a candidate. And of course he became president not once, but twice. And Katy Tur has reported doggedly throughout the ten years.

that Donald Trump has been dominating our political cycles. So let's not waste any more time. Let's get into it. Katy Tur, welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. Yeah, I'm. This is the first time that I'm here. I can't believe it either. And I want you to come back regularly. I would love to, So, listen, you've been covering Donald Trump. since he descended his golden staircase in Trump Tower. Since he was a joke, since he was a joke.

And now, of course, he's still a joke, but in a different way. He's the president of the United States. He's the president of the United States. So what? What difference do you notice now between his current, and when he first started? He's much more I mean, Donald Trump has always been very much himself, but he really is himself now, in a way, that feels pure. And I think that's partially age.

I think when you get older, you just become much more yourself. You don't care any longer and you're less, willing to, I don't know, to to suffer the niceties of the world. So that's part of it. But also he's surrounded himself now. with people who say yes to everything he wants to do, people who compliment and, and, and help him with his deepest urges. Whatever he wants to do is right. Whatever he thinks is right, he is brilliant. He's like, I chat bot, he's a chat.

GPT right? He's surrounded himself with people who are ChatGPT. you type in ChatGPT is Katy Tur wonderful in chat to people tell you, Katy Tur is the most wonderful person who has ever existed. And here are all the reasons why that's what he has surrounding him now. So he's a bit like a sort of fable in a way. He's sort of mirror, mirror on the wall. Who's the fairest of them? I think that's a very good description. Right. And everybody is around him. So let's talk. I mean, in in his first term. when you were following him, he would frequently single you out.

You wrote a fantastic book about this. Unbelievable where. And it was a memoir of your covering him for, what, 515 days? In ten days? 110 days. Actually, I was five days off. That's at every once in a while I pick it up. and I just flip to a random page and it is like, it's a good book. It's a really good book about a moment in time that does not still, to this day, feel real. And yet here we are, ten, ten years later. So here we are, ten, ten years later. He used to pick on you and call you little Katie.

Today he's picked on a different Katy. Katie Rogers of The New York Times. who's written or co-written a long piece about his flagging energy, I think, and his, working at the white House is what they've called it, aging in the white. And interesting that The New York Times has delved into this. There was so much hand-wringing over, over approaching it, during the Biden years, and they got so much flack for it. And there was a question of when, when is somebody going to really tackle,

Donald Trump's, slowing down because you can see it. I mean, you could see it. during the campaign, even he I was talking to Maggie Haberman about this. He is different than he was. He doesn't have the same amount of energy. He's not as coherent as he used to be. He's always been not entirely coherent, but it's different now. He's slower. His speech is slower. You can see him falling asleep sometimes, or appearing to fall and fall asleep. in the Oval Office, or I think it was a national prayer breakfast or so.

Well, he for some event. when Doctor Oz was in the office and the poor man who'd come to talk about. GLP was reducing and price collapsed and literally his legs were up in the air, and Donald Trump was sort of standing there in a daze. But, earlier in that press conference, there was that. But then earlier in the year, during the beginning of the administration, when he was at the National Cathedral in DC, I forgot what the event was for. But I believe the priest it wasn't the National Prayer Breakfast. The priest was admonishing the administration. for its treatment of immigrants.

Anyway, during that, that sermon, he appeared to be falling asleep there, too. He's different. I mean, he's what? He's 79 years old. He's lived out to be 80. Anybody at that age is going to start slowing down. So were you surprised that the times, suggested that his day now. starts at midday, that it's basically working hours and midday to five? No, I mean, in the first administration, he pushed it back to ten.

or even at sometimes even later in the afternoon, he had executive time. That became a big, point of, jokes. What's he doing during during his executive time? He's watching television. Right. What were you doing? You know, he's watching all the networks. think he has them all on on his, in his dining room or in the residence. Remember? Remember when, Fox and Friends would, could tell. he was watching because there was one light on in the white House. They would monitor one window, and that one window with the light. on, they would call him out and say, Donald, Donald, I know you're watching.

Oh, how he would know that. And he would. I remember him calling it. Yeah. But he would be up there at those hours calling in. We're not seeing that quite as much. I think part of it is, yes, he is slowing down. Yes. There are questions about his cognitive abilities. Sometimes he slurs his words. Sometimes his speeches make even less sense than they used to. You. There is a lot of chatter and gossip online over some physical things, like the dragging of the leg, the. the bruise on his hand, the swelling of his ankles. I'm not a doctor. I don't know what any of those things add up to, but he is 79, right?

And also, if you saw them in a relative, you would be concerned, are you okay? Anything going on. Right. Well up with your hand. Why why is that a bruise. And and he claims the bruises. are to do with the fact that she shakes hands when he's on aspirin. And listen, I'm on aspirin every day, and I've got a bruise on my hand. Why are you on aspirin every day? I've got a family history of heart disease, so I'm on aspirin every day. Okay. But I would you like to know more of my. I know, but I'm curious. I'm.

You know, should we all be on aspirin every day? But. So there is some validity to that. I can't tell you how it adds up with I can. I'm not a doctor, but I can't tell you how it adds up with the swelling of the ankles, or the dragging of the leg, or the falling asleep in the Oval Office. But, you know, this is it's a new thing for us to have presidents. who are this world, right? We had Biden and now we have Trump. Biden was a few years older. He really started to decline in the last few years. He was starting to decline. So what happens with Donald Trump? Is this just the beginning of a precipitous slope down?

In terms of his his health? I don't know, but he can he's 79. Is Trump the new Biden. we're going to have to see? There was, Shane Gillis, the comedian who does a truly brilliant Trump. impression was saying on on one of the podcasts, that's the best way I can describe them. That I think he used the term Trump has Biden brains, or he's getting close to Biden. He's got Biden brain.

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, the narrative is bubbling well. And also because he's so visible, we can see it all the time. I mean, Biden didn't do as many press conferences. No. Donald Trump loves a press conference. He loves the center of attention. But the trouble is, all our attention is on him. So we are watching this, you know, micro moment. By micro moment, I mean, when he doesn't appear on camera for a day or two days or three days, everybody starts to freak out and wonder if he's died. Remember that earlier this year today? And he came out and said, I haven't died.

I still yeah, but I mean, I think not. to be not to get on the bandwagon and to push back a little bit. He is doing much more than certainly Joe Biden did. He is out there in a way that past presidents haven't even been out there. He does give access. He's constantly on television. So I mean, he might be slowing down for him and slowing down. because he's getting up there in age, but he is still very much, mobile. I mean, he's he's doing overseas travel.

He's coming back, he's handing out Halloween candy. Sometimes these trips are one day. I mean, he is very much, still engaged. He's not doing the same amount of travel that he used to. I mean, the domestic travel has certainly declined. He's not doing those rallies. He's not standing in front of a crowd for an hour or two hours, three hours. in, you know, Grand Rapids, Michigan, any longer. And I think that's telling. But there is. this has got to be relative to him and not necessarily relative to Joe Biden.

I went to the Christmas party, during the Biden years. And and he came out at like 8:00 and he gave a speech. to the assembled room of journalists. And you could not understand a word he was saying. Right. It's different. And do you think that journalists have learned. from that moment and are now going to be less afraid of actually. covering things that are sort of evident in plain sight? I think so, I think I think it is still tricky. to wade into because, again, we're not doctors.

And it's a it's really difficult to, to diagnose somebody from afar. And you want to be careful with that. But I do think that there is, we have a job to acknowledge the reality in front of us. And when somebody is behaving different or slowing down. or doesn't make sense or is hiding information. I mean, he talked about his MRI, and we've given you all the information about my, his MRI, he says, but doesn't give you actually any information about the MRI.

I think it's it's a reporter's duty. I mean, it's part of the job to point out, hey, you got an MRI. We don't know why, right? Right. And it's the second time you've been to Walter Reed this year, I think. Yeah, exactly. So you've been. I remember he was very cagey about his Covid diagnosis as well. during the first administration. Right. And how sick he was and the needing of the monoclonal antibodies. he's gone after Katie Rogers, who wrote the piece. said she's ugly inside and out.

He called you little Katie. He called, a Bloomberg reporter recently. Peggy. Quiet, Peggy. First. of all, I was quite surprised that nobody in the. I think it was on the airplane that he called the reporter. Peggy, I was quite surprised that none of the male correspondents, or perhaps they didn't. I didn't hear it just say, hey, Mr. President, that's not okay. What does it feel like when you are the butt of that angry.

presidential attention? Oh, my God, it feels like a wave is crashing on you. You try to ignore it. I certainly. it became so routine during the campaign for me, for him to call me out, that you just you keep going. about your your job, you stand up, you smile, you give your report. I would wave to the crowd, because I think if you show. any weakness or you show you're offended, it's so much worse. So didn't you have. to have security to get you to your car after he began picking on you?

Yeah. The Secret Service walked me to my car after one of the events where it got. got really ugly. Which I think is insane. And then we NBC had security. full time, with us wherever we went. That was a completely new thing. And at the time, it was a very big deal. What kind of country are we living in where reporters. need armed security to go out and do their jobs? This isn't people would say this isn't Russia. This isn't some third world country.

This is the United States of America. And it shouldn't it shouldn't. You shouldn't have your life threatened. when you're doing the basic job of journalism. And Donald Trump ushered that that new era in. And it was scary. And there were a lot of people saying. this was not okay, we can't live like this. We can't accept this. But then he was elected president, right? So all of that now became normalized. So why does why don't the guys on the plane. or the or the gals on the plane speak up in defense of the reporter? I think it's because it's become normalized.

And does he do it as much after men as he does after women? No. I mean, the administration will say he's an equal opportunity, insult her. And there is, I guess, some truth to that. Certainly he does go after men that he doesn't like. I mean, he went after Jonathan Karl recently in a sort of crowd of reporters. Yeah, of course, but the the way that he talks about their physical attributes, for women, I think is, is different is different. And what do you are not physical attributes.

The way that he puts a well is the insoles. Yeah. Yeah in a physical way. Right. And what do you think that's about. What is he actually saying there. I think he's saying you know, you don't matter. You why would you think that you have the authority to question me. He's diminishing them. Right. What is the I mean, you said when he did it, you just keep on doing your job. There's nothing else you could endorse. What do you think Katie Rogers thought when she saw him sounding off in a fury?

Just saying. She's an ugly person inside now. I don't know, but I imagine that she thinks the way. everyone does, which is I'm not looking forward. to the flood of threats that are now going to be coming my way. And it's not just angry vitriol online, although that can feel very isolating. It's the it's what comes with it now. It's the personal threats to your safety that any time. he singles you out you have to or his crowd singles you out.

You have to embrace yourself for. And then thinking about what you need to do to make sure that, you know, one crazy person in that crowd doesn't act on, doesn't act on, trying to silence you. Right. So let's talk about another theory, which I didn't know about, which is referenced in in Katie's piece today about Trump believing. that we are basically human.

beings, like batteries, and that we have a finite amount of energy. I can't believe you only just learned I can't believe it. I mean, it's like it's like hearing about a theory from Victorian England. This is literally what the Victorians, used to think that we were like batteries. We had a finite amount of energy. And this is the reason why he doesn't exercise. Also puts leeches on his body at night in order to suck out the bad blood. Oh, no, he doesn't. I'm joking. No, no, I know, but I was going to say this. That's probably quite a lot of work for the leeches to do.

Can you explain this theory? You knew all about it when I referenced it to you, so I. Oh, yes. This is one of the weird. The weird, theories of Donald Trump has about health. It's he's been talking about it for a long time. Is part of it was. Why is the president of the United States not exercising right? Obama exercise. Clinton exercise. You saw him jogging or George W Bush. Bush exercised. But why is Donald Trump not exercising? It looks like he needed to exercise. Or that's what doctors would say. And his pushback to that was, I move my arms a lot on stage.

when I'm when he's doing that. Yeah, when he's doing that, when he's giving rallies, speeches. But also I don't need to exercise because exercise is actually bad for you. because your body is like a battery and you have only. a certain amount of energy and a battery the way you do in your body. Right? In your body, the way you do it, a battery. And when that energy runs out, you're dead. You're gone. So why expend extra energy running a triathlon, or playing, physical sports or lifting weights?

You're just you're just hastening yourself to the end, right? Well, he's clearly got very good DNA because he eats McDonald's. He eats steak. He doesn't appear to eat any veg. I know, it's so funny. My cardiologist says if you eat a hamburger more than once. a year, you're going to drop dead. And yet I'm looking at the president of the United States. So housing McDonald's. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's remarkable. So this is not a great time for him. I mean, you. you made the point that he's surrounded by yes people, but he's got Marjorie.

Taylor Greene who was one of his biggest fans, is leaving his polls. Bad. Really bad. Even though he keeps saying that great grocery prices. are high, despite the fact he keeps saying they're low. And there's clearly a buildup of steam about the health premiums, which are going to, in some cases, double or triple for people. or quadruple or quintuple, in fact. Jeez. Okay, so that's even worse. Yeah. We we highlighted a couple in Oregon, Eugene,

Oregon yesterday who pay around $400 a month. Now they're retirees, right? For their health insurance, it's going to go up to $2,400. a month in order for them to to pay for their health care. That's unaffordable. Well, it's unaffordable. And also it's so foolish politically, I would think, because this impacts people in every state. It's not just a blue state. Thank you for saying that. It is so confusing to me. I do not understand the basis,

by which Republicans do not want to give Americans health care. Right? Do not want to fund health care. It doesn't make sense for the economy, because just getting people sick. and and forcing them onto the health care system becomes a drain on it. But then also the people who use the Obamacare. subsidies most are in deep red states. We have a map that we show every time we talk about this, and it's it's kind of become tired. But I want to show it every time because the, the deepest red places.

are the places where the subsidy subsidies are used most. So you see, Texas, lots of people on the Obamacare subsidy in Texas. But Republicans in Texas, by and large don't want to extend it. It doesn't make any sense because your electorate wants it. and you're there to represent your electorate. You're there to make sure that your electorate, gets taken care of. And yet this is a, an arena where you say, no, I don't I'm going to I'm going to ignore the needs of my voters,

and I'm going to instead prioritize the needs of who is it? The special interests. What is it? Well, it's as a consequence of the big beautiful Bill. Right. And it's about giving the ultra rich a tax break. So they get a huge tax break on the way they financed the tax break is by, not continuing with the health care subsidies. But again, that is not representing their constituents. And they I mean, I think that's why Marjorie Taylor Greene says there's. going to be a Democratic win of the House in the midterms.

Right. Health care has been Kryptonite for Republicans. The last time the Republicans, were swept out of. the majority was during Donald Trump's first term midway through. And it was because of Obamacare. They tried to repeal Obamacare. They said they had a plan to replace it. They never had a plan to replace it. They were not successful in doing that. And the Democrats ran on that. They ran on Republicans trying to take away your health care, and they lost. And this looks like it's going to be a repeat of that. I mean, he he campaigned saying, oh, I have a concept for health care,

but we haven't seen the concept. Well, there was going to be an outline the other day. They went from a concept to an outline. but never revealed it after a big GOP revolt. Speaker Mike Johnson calling the white House and saying, nobody wants this. That being said, there is reporting out there, from a number of outlets. that say that what we're going to see in this next year in Congress. are going to be a number of discharge petitions, including ones on health care.

What is Republicans? What is a discharge petition? It's what happened with the absent file. So in the House you need the the leadership to or even. even in the Senate you need the leadership to bring a bill to the floor. Okay. They've got to put it on the agenda. In order to circumvent that, you can get a majority of House members. signing off on a petition to force the bill to the floor. So which is what happened with the order. for I've seen, the Epstein bill to get to the floor. They needed all of the Democrats, and I think 4 or 5, Republicans.

Right. And they got that. And that's why it ultimately went to a vote. So we could be seeing more of those. on health care, Democrats getting on board with it. And then are there going to be five Republicans, six Republicans, or even more signing on to say, no, we we think this is important. We need to extend those subsidies. It's not just Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's worried about it. There are Republicans in Congress who do see the tidal wave coming. and do understand. that these subsidies, without them, people are going to get very upset.

It's life is already unaffordable. It will become even more unaffordable acutely. So, when these, subsidies go away in January. Well, I can't imagine any of them will get reelected because it's and also, this is a payment that people make every single month. And if your health care premiums are going up, as you said, with a couple in Oregon. that you talk to. for X, that's that's literal money out of your account every single month, this is like a one off payment that you kind of cringe for.

And then, you know, you forget about it for a year. This is every single month where you just don't get health care. Well, you don't get health, and then you're just hoping. that for this year, without health care, you're going to be okay, right? And you wake up at three in the morning every night. hoping that you're not going to get ill, and then you're worrying that the worrying. is going to cause stress and you're going to get some sort of illness for that. Of course, it's shocking. It's just such a shocking state of affairs. So, look, you speak to tons of people, you speak to Republicans,

you speak to Democrats. What are you hearing among the Republicans about how they manage Trump? It's flattery. Flattery. It's always been flattery. Tell him he's great. Thomas. Poll numbers are wonderful, right? Tell him he solved and stopped eight wars. That he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. So is that so? When he says out loud, my poll numbers are the best they've ever been. They're absolutely fantastic. When we know that all the recent polls have had him at his lowest,

does he actually believe they're good? He's always been shown selective polls. You know, during the first campaign. when he watches television all the time and there's lots of stuff, then he's shown. like a Rasmussen poll or some other poll that shows the numbers are different, or internal polls that are, that are cherry picked. I mean, he's he can he's shown different information. He sees what, we're reporting on television. That's why he calls us fake news. So he literally lives in his own information bubble.

And I mean, not just saying that is how sort of denial way. That's generally how it's tended to be. You know, I don't have a full insight into exactly. what's put in front of him on his desk, but that has been, the standard. operating procedure with Donald Trump now for many years. So he might be getting some, bad looking polls. And and you do see him acknowledge it to a degree. because he's talking about affordability more, right? He's now trying to claim the Democrats made up this word affordability.

And nobody, nobody even talked about affordability. Right. For the Democrats brought it up. But no, everything actually is great. So he's trying to will the country out of this feeling they have. or the reality they have that prices are up by saying, no, they're not. Everything's wonderful. And he has had that power in the past, to impose his own reality on everybody else. He has been successful at it. There are real questions about whether this time. is going to be different, because people are still very upset.

They do feel like their lives have gotten. more expensive and their wages have not matched that. There was a really interesting analysis of the poverty. line, by an economist. And I'm going to be. interviewing him soon, but he talks about the hangover from Covid. and the reason why everybody felt better about their finances in Covid. is because they weren't paying for transportation. They were paying for child care. Two of the biggest expenses, that we experience in daily life. Right. So suddenly,

you know, they had an extra $30,000 because they weren't paying for daycare. They had an extra $20,000 because they weren't driving, you know, they weren't they weren't commuting and their $80,000 salary, their 100,000, $220,000 salary felt flush, flush. And now that we're back after Covid, all of those prices have come back. All those costs have come back. Health care, health care. is going up, but also childcare and transportation is back. And with food prices going up, you don't feel flush any longer.

You feel angry about how everything has gotten more expensive. and how you can no longer keep up with it. So you had a moment where you felt good and the and the taking back of that, of that power, that financial power, that ability to save, the. ripping it out of your hands really makes you pissed off. Right. And and that's why Biden had to deal with it. And Trump is facing the same headwinds. That is interesting. And also people shopped less because you couldn't go out to the shop. I mean, it was just.

I mean, a lot of online shopping, there was a lot of online shopping, but it's hot online shopping for slippers and robes and a sweat pants. Well, that that's true. And also people doing up their homes. So there was a boom in the kind of home industry I'm on the board of Sony. and everybody was re re equipping their homes with better sounds. Yeah. But you didn't. have that incidental shopping in the way that you do now know. Now things are back and we're all out and about. And also people weren't spending on travel, they weren't spending on restaurants.

So all of that sort of extra spend. And you see a lot of spending on that now too. And that's all gone up because food's gone up. Revenge travel expenses, revenge travel, revenge travel. That's a great term. Okay. So the other thing that's going on with Trump and that it keeps coming back. despite all his efforts to distract, is the Epstein files. What do you have any sense of? What even are the Epstein files? I mean, the Epstein files. are all of the investigative material that the FBI and DOJ collected.

when they were looking into Jeffrey Epstein and his alleged crimes. There's an idea out there. among crazy conspiracy theories, but also among a lot of regular people. who are, you know, not totally looped into the conspiracy world. that there's got to be more. There is a guy who was exceedingly wealthy, can't really explain. how he got so wealthy, who had a ton of powerful friends, was friends. with presidents, was friends with royalty, was friends with billionaires.

Every, you know, the who's who of the 90s and the early 2000. And at the same time, he was friends with all these folks. He had his own private island where he was abusing girls and everyone. Everyone seemed to know about it. And he was Donald Trump's best friend for ten years. He was doing all those sort of had a falling out over a piece of property. in, I think, 2004, and there's a ton of video of the two of them together. partying, dancing, at Mar-A-Lago.

He was at Donald Trump's weddings like they were they were very close. And this idea that everyone kind of understood what Epstein was doing, and some of them maybe may have even taken part. And when he got, arrested for it initially. and then got that sweetheart deal. Well, why did he get a sweetheart deal? Who did he know and what did he have? Were there? Was he did he make some sort of backroom deal on information, or did he have leverage over, some big, powerful people.

that really didn't want to see him fully punished because they were worried. about what he might reveal about them. So there are these questions that have been festering now for a long time. And when Donald Trump came into office, he appointed his labor secretary, a man named Alex Acosta, who was a prosecutor in Florida, who gave him that sweetheart deal. And then all of a sudden, the Epstein stuff started to explode again. And the appointment of Alex Acosta came under scrutiny, and Donald Trump. ousted him and tried to separate himself from Epstein and did.

so successfully, so much so that the belief among the MAGA world. was that Donald Trump was actually the one who exposed Epstein. He was the whistleblower on Epstein, and he was going to unravel this. disgusting pedophilia ring. that was operating in the highest levels of government, the highest levels of society. And Epstein was a part of it, and Donald Trump was going to reveal it. That's why we have to elect him again.

in 2024, because he's finally going to get to the bottom of it. Right? And then he didn't. And then he came in and his DOJ, said, yeah, we have the files, we're going to release them. and then didn't hand it over a bunch of binders full of nothing. to a bunch of these conspiracy theorists who had been chomping at the bit. And then there were renewed questions. Why exactly are they not revealing the information that they promised? And does Donald Trump know about this? He must not know about this.

He's always been insulated from it, which I find to be fascinating, totally fascinating, because there's all these images. of Epstein and Donald Trump together, and he has the power, the the you. The lateral power to release all the information, right? If he wanted to. Yet he's not going to do it. So I think the natural question is what is what is in there? Is there any more incriminating emails? More embarrassing emails? Are there financial transactions? What? I mean, the girls, by and large, have said that they didn't see. Donald Trump behave badly.

There's one that has that says that she was groped or assaulted by Donald Trump. He's denied this. But if it is really. if there's nothing there about Trump, but if it really is all about the Democrats, why hasn't Donald Trump released it? Well, and why also and by the way, that was one of the best explanations. of the Epstein files and the whole story of Epstein that I have heard. Concise, chronological, very clear.

What do you make of the fact. that Trump's former personal lawyer, Todd Blanch, who's now. the number two at the Justice Department, personally went down to meet. Jeffrey Epstein's former partner in crime, who was sentenced? Ghislaine Maxwell. Obviously, I'm talking about. he was sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking. And then moved her from her. jail in Tallahassee to a prison camp in Texas. What the point of that was?

What was the point of it? What are you getting out of Ghislaine Maxwell. that you haven't already got out of Glenn Maxwell? What do you what do you want? Maybe it's a better question out of Glenn Maxwell. And they released a transcript. And in it, she exonerates Trump. She says how nice he was and how she never remembers him doing anything. She doesn't even remember him much, really, in relation. to Epstein or showing up at the various properties. But that's contradicted by the emails that she's sending to Epstein.

Right? The ones that were released by the estate. Right. The 1 in 2011 where he says Trump is the dog that hasn't barks. And she says, I was thinking about that. And then he says, Virginia Giuffre. It's redacted in the email. But then the Republicans say it was Virginia Giuffre. Trump spent hours with Virginia at my house. Yeah. And this was pointed out. And Todd responded, that, you know, it was George Conway. I think you don't really know how to be a prosecutor. You don't know what you're talking about.

But yeah, she was moved to a minimum security. or lower security prison club fed, as they call it. Endless were it's white color crimes. It's not sex trafficking. You don't go there if you're a sex trafficker. Right. She's in there with Elizabeth Holmes. Who was the. Yeah. You're a bouncer. The behind there are not you're not you know, you weren't. you weren't sex trafficking. You weren't sex trafficking girls. Yeah, exactly. So why why? I mean, I think those are all really big questions. And, they do cast just another dark shadow.

over Donald Trump's involvement and over, his reluctance to release the information. Why do you think he finally said release the Epstein files? He was trying to lead the parade. He said the parade. It was. He saw a mob coming after him. Right. And instead of allowing the mob to overtake him, he turned around and led the mob out like he was leading the parade. You had a jailbreak? Fantastic.

And you had a good jail. Good. I can't take credit for it. I heard it a few times from from a few people. Right. But it is great. That's why. That's why you saw the mob coming and decided to lead them. Exactly. Tastic. Yeah. The what happened in Congress was you had Marjorie Taylor Greene. and Thomas Massie just being completely headstrong. about the Epstein files and standing with the victims and refusing.

to back down on it, refusing, to succumb to the pressure. of the president of the United States, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Now, is Marjorie traitor Greene. Donald Trump is going after Massie, going after his marriage, making fun of him, and Marcy's laughing it off. He called the white House, called Low and Lauren Boebert into the Situation Room. That was it. I know it up into like to some office in the West Wing, into the Situation room. in order to pressure her to try to take her name off the discharge. petition, he kept calling Nancy Mace, the president of the United States was playing phone tag with Nancy.

Mace, who, by the way, wants to be governor of South Carolina. She he couldn't get her on the phone. to get her to take her name off the discharge petition. So when the imagine being Nancy Mace and having Donald Trump call him, what she doing, what she's saying to her assistant. Oh, I'm not here. Tell him I'm not here. Tell him you can't find me. Tell me you don't know where I am. What a night. Can you imagine that? Dodging a phone call from the president of the United States?

Well, I can, if it's Donald Trump. Yeah, but if you're a Republican and you need him, especially if you need him to endorse you, if you want to run. for governor in South Carolina, that takes some, some, some real guts. So when the the Arizona rep. got finally seated after her special election, where hava. the discharge petition has enough votes to go to the floor and I, you know, I had. Don bacon on I asked him, is this going to is this thing going to pass? And he said, absolutely, there's going to be a jailbreak of Republicans, maybe 100 Republicans who are going to vote for this because.

jailbreak, because that's what it feels like seeing, well, being imprisoned by Donald Trump's. personality, a jailbreak of Republicans coming out and voting. Yes, because they don't they understand their constituents, and they don't want to be the ones saying no to releasing files about a pedophile. Right. And then when, when they when they was obvious. it was going to be a flood of Republicans, Donald Trump over the weekend suddenly reversed himself.

after all of this pressure, after months of calling anybody who wanted. the information a loser and saying he didn't want their support anyway, he suddenly says, no, I think we should all we should all see the files. And I encourage all the Republicans to get behind this. And so not only did you have all but one of the Republicans in, in, in the House, you had every single Republican senator as well saying yes to this. He had no choice. Right. It it slightly reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld, which I don't know. if you remember, where George pretends that he has a house in the Hamptons.

and all his friends know it's not true. And so he has a car and he says, right, we're going out to my house in the Hamptons. And all along the drive out there, you're trying to figure out. how is he going to get out of this? Because at the end, we know that he doesn't have a house. And this there's a very much. a feeling of that with Donald Trump here that we know he's in them. We've seen that. He's in them. Elon Musk said that he was in them. He tweeted that he was in them when they were having their spat.

And he then deleted the tweet. So it's just very curious to know what we're going to find. And also odd for cash. Patel, who's the head of the FBI, and his number two, Dan Bongino, who before they joined the FBI, were constantly stirring. the conspiracy. of the out of the Epstein files, which now doesn't even feel. like a conspiracy anymore. No, and that's true. We had reporting yesterday from, Ken Delaney in Carolina. and I believe, Laura Brown Lopez about Kash Patel's future.

and how the president was thinking of replacing him. So he's doing so soon. Right. So let's talk about Kash Patel, because obviously, one of the things. he used to do before he came in, he was a t shirt salesman. But he was also very active on X, constantly going after Christopher Wray, who was then. He was a former, FBI know. He's a former DOJ prosecutor. Right, right. But going after him for misuse of the government jet, which you have to take at a certain point because it's about your own security.

He's now come under enormous pressure himself because he's got a girlfriend. who's a country singer. And the government jet appears to be ferrying her. And she's got a Swat team protecting her, by the way, as well, which he is concerned, isn't doing a good enough job. Right? I know that he, says that she gets threats and that's why. he justifies a Swat team protecting her, which is extraordinary and not normal for, a girlfriend to get for a girlfriend of the FBI director. Listen, when during the first administration,

when we saw a turnover in the cabinet, it often was tied, to misuse of government funds using a private plane. That took a few of the, cabinet members down the first time. So it wouldn't be surprising if Kash Patel's misuse of funds, you know, using that chat, giving her a Swat team escort, if that's what did him in. There's a history there of Donald Trump saying you can't. This is this this bounty is not for you. This is this is this is this bounties for me, not for you.

You can't you can't use it the way that I use it. You don't have that same authority. That being said, after we reported that the white House, put out a or Caroline Leavitt claims she showed the reporting to the president, the president laughed, called it fake, and then, happened to have Kash Patel. in the Oval Office and said, let's take a photo. to show them that everything's great. And so there's a photo of them. that she released to try to push back on the reporting. But Ken Dilanian said that even amid that, after the reporting came out,

he got a number of texts from his sources within the FBI saying. that it was true and that the rumblings were there and they were getting louder. And perhaps his, position was under threat. and would would come to an end soon. But, you know, when Donald Trump feels like he's being pressured to do something. or when he feels like it's been, you know, released. the information that he wants to get somebody out has been released, he'll backtrack and and support the person in order to prove that the, the reports were false. Right.

And that he doesn't want to do what the press is pushing him to do that. Right. And yet, at the same time, you know that a presidential hand. around the shoulder offering support is worth nothing. Nothing. I mean, he would remember he would say, I've got full confidence. Yeah, well, it's the words you never want to hear about yourself. Someone saying, oh, I have full confidence in them. because you're like, oh, the end is yeah, the end, isn't it? It's just a weird signaling. So the other thing that has laid Donald Trump a bit low, and you saw him. sort of slumping off and poor Melania in her wonderful high heels,

kind of trying to stay upright on the lawn as they go to Marine Force One. Espadrilles were made for by the way. Exactly. Although I suddenly thought, oh, that's why they've ripped up. Jackie Kennedy Rose lawn and paved it. so Melania can trot around in her very high heels, which she does admirably. Actually, I can't do that any longer. Anyway, the point I was getting to was Lindsay Halligan failure. to nail James Comey and Tish James.

Yeah, I explored this yesterday on my show. And whether the failures in court, including the Comey James thing, will. Damage him in. Congress, this this idea that he's invincible, this infallibility, and this inevitability that Donald Trump has, that he's all powerful, that he has full control over every aspect of government. and is marching us toward authoritarianism, that for the first nine. months of the administration has, you know, scared people.

And lots of folks have gotten in line. You look at all. the business leaders who have showed up at the white House, bearing gifts. But the way in which Republicans haven't said a peep about losing their. authorities, like the power of the purse or the power at a tariff, and the fear. that's been, pulsing through DOJ go against Donald Trump. You're going to get fired. These embarrassing moments in court, these embarrassing failures.

in court as as evidenced by the Lindsay Halligan thing, doesn't it just kind of show that they're a bit bumbling. and that they really don't have control, that they are incompetent, they're incompetent, and they can't get people to really. they can say they want somebody prosecuted. They can they can say that they're a crook. They can say that they're disgusting and should be in jail. But you need to present evidence in a court of law. You need to follow procedure in a court of law and when you can't.

get somebody who is qualified enough to do the basics, that does kind. of prove a measure of weakness. Well, she has fantastic hair. I don't think that Donald Trump is going to call Lindsay Halligan, who was a runner up in Miss Colorado. Ugly or little, or any of the or. Peggy. He's definitely not going to call her Peggy. But she turned out to be pretty damn incompetent in the courtroom. Yeah, I mean, she didn't know how to get an indictment.

And it's so bad, in fact, that they may never be able. to bring the Comey case again because the judge dismissed. Dismiss it without prejudice. I'm not a lawyer, but I think that means that you're allowed. to bring the case again. But in the case of Comey, there's a footnote in the ruling, right, that says you can't just bring a indictment. against somebody to stop the, statute of limitations. And it was about to run out on. Yeah, it was I think it was five days. And so now the case is gone. I had the five day run out the clock.

They were trying to and there's a usually a grace period. if something gets thrown out. But because the indictment was, I guess, not real, not valid. He's saying you've already you've lost. You've lost your your time. It's up. It's over. And there are now questions about whether the government would be. would be successful if they did try to bring the Comey case again. They can bring the James case again. But if they lose the ability to bring the Comey case again, because. Lindsey Halligan messed up because she didn't understand, how indictments work.

Because but that's not even what they ruled on. They ruled on her not being legally appointed. Yeah. Because Donald Trump put somebody into that position. who who was not allowed to be in that position. Right. And was taken that would be second interim attorney. Yeah. Which shouldn't have happened. It's all very legally complicated. But essentially he's got to nominate somebody. and that nomination has to get through the Senate. Yep. It's got to get through. In Virginia a couple of Democratic senators. who are not just going to rubber stamp somebody with no qualifications.

or somebody who seems like a hatchet man, hatchet man for Donald Trump. or it's got to be appointed by, I think it's judges. Again, it's like it's very legally complicated. Regardless, she was not legal. She couldn't even bring the indictment if she wanted to. Somebody else would have needed to sign their name. But again, they couldn't. get anybody else in the office to sign their name to this indictment. because they didn't think that the crimes Comey. was accused of were actually prosecutable.

They didn't believe that they could get a conviction. And when you are a lawyer and DOJ, if you don't believe you can get a conviction. because the evidence is not there, right? Don't bring the case. Right. And it seems to me, you know, we talk a lot about Donald Trump being a brilliant television producer. And this is the sort of episode where he is forcing. his will onto the DOJ. And in a television show, that would be very dramatic. But in real life, there are consequences. It doesn't make sense. That's not how it works.

And it's been thrown out. So actually, it's a good example of the institution holding. We're constantly told, oh, the institutions are folding, there's no gatekeepers, there's no guardrails. But actually that's exactly what happened. But don't hold your breath because if it goes to the Supreme Court, who knows? Who knows, who knows. So final question, because I feel like we've been very thorough on on. everything that's going on right now, is has there been an uncertainly?

It feels as if there has. But I know you're watching it much more closely than I am. More grift in this second term because I took notes. Joanna. Oh, you took excellent notes on this. There's been a lot of alleged grift. I'll be careful. And I'll say alleged grift. Alleged grift. Okay, so, look, the Donald Trump has, crypto behind him right now. The family has made $800 million from crypto. sales in the first half of this year. Wow.

This is a man that's embraced crypto in a way no president has before. Well, I'm not sure any. I'm not sure Biden would have understood. What? Chris, I don't know if Donald Trump understands what crypto is either. But he understands it enough to make a hundred. You remember the Virginia golf course auction earlier in the term? So not so. Donald Trump held or his family held an auction for holders of his meme coin. Again. Meme coin. Right? Yeah. It's a thing that's digital. And you could buy it. It's like if whatever. Right. And it's sounding like an NFT.

I'm hearing echoes of NFT. The highest bidder, highest bidders would get tickets to this event. at his Virginia Golf course, where he was going to make an appearance. The highest of highest bidders would get access to the president. You know, I think that in past presidencies, we might lose our minds over that, right? I mean, I think we'd lost our minds over that. with the Trump Hotel during the first term. He talked about the Emoluments Clause and gave everybody a crash course.

in a very archaic term from the 1700s. that nobody had thought about for, for 250 years. But not now. Not now. This is a two day news story, and then it goes away. The winners, by the way, went to the golf course. I think he made he made $148 million of this. Wow. Winners went to the golf course and were let down by the access. that they got to the president. So it has Trump University, the stench of Trump University all over it, of course.

There's the ball room. There's the ball room. $300 million raised for this ballroom, ripping down the east wing. and building this ostentatious gold, and marble ballroom at the white House. Have the plans even been certified and approved? I don't think he cares if he's going to reboot. Well, do you think he's actually going to build something? Yes. Well, he has to. There's a there's a wall in the property. I know there's a hole there, but I mean, have we seen the beginnings of any building?

I think they're still in the demolition stage, but I'd have to go in and see what. what we can, what we can find. And the people at the Treasury were told not to take pictures. And you only get a bit of a smush view. From, the positions that reporters can see at the white House. So I'd have to go see what the updated images are. But again, $300 million. It's raised by private, donors. But a lot of these private donors have business with the federal government. or have business with Donald Trump, or want to get close to him.

There are crypto billionaires, their sports teams owners. They're financiers and tech bros. The tobacco companies, media companies, Comcast, Amazon, Apple, meta, Google, all these people who have business with. or have business the federal government needs to sanction. Right? So it's pay to play. It's pay to play. There's that. The pardons, you know, the pardoned, the Binance guy. There's a guitar playing. $400 million, which, you know, it's going to cost ton of money.

in order to make safe for a president of the United States to fly in. I think God, by the way, that's 100 times more. 100 times more than every foreign gift given to the United States since 2001. Wow. 100 times more. Yeah. He got a gold crown from the leader of South Korea, which felt very on the nose. And then there's, I think what is most egregious. and makes no sense politically. Donald Trump talking especially he did this during the shutdown.

when people were in bread lines, when they were at food pantries, when they were not getting their paychecks. He talked about how he deserved and might sued his DOJ for $230 million. as recompense or restitution for the investigations. that Jack Smith, launched against him. And by the way, the Senate. snuck in during the shutdown bill did to end the government shutdown, a little provision that would allow senators to also sue the DOJ.

for having their phone records, seized legally, by the way, by Jack Smith during his investigations, which just smacks of self-dealing. It's it's potentially could be hundreds of million dollars that the DOJ, which, by the way, categorically believes that the 2020 election was stolen. That's what you have to believe to be at the head of the DOJ. And so categorically believes that these investigations were a hoax, right? I had missed that detail about the senators, what they would compensation, they would be in charge of saying.

yes or no to paying Donald Trump and these senators and that money. Joanne, it comes from us. It comes from times I I'm just thinking of how much tax I pay, and I do not want it to go to Donald Trump's compensation fund. Yeah. So it's how can can't have health care. but they can have hundreds of millions of dollars. in theory Katie the Democrats should be romping home with this degree in theory. Do you feel they, on top of all this. in the way that you've just laid it out?

I think you see glimmers of it. I think they have been better at marshaling. a response lately on health care in particular. They were very good. on getting on message during the shutdown. And even though they, you know, were the ones that signed on. to ending the shutdown without the subsidies, when you look. at the polling broadly, Americans are blaming Republicans for the shutdown. And broadly Americans are blaming Republicans, for affordability issues.

which include, Trump, which include, health care. So they've been better at it lately. They are still trying to figure out. exactly how to go after Donald Trump in terms of the term oligarchy. I know Bernie Sanders wants to use it all the time AOC uses it. Mamdani has been very successful. on just hammering affordability, affordability, affordability. But I don't know. I think there's still quite a bit of time. And who knows? Democrats are they have a tendency to to chase the bouncing ball.

or the next sparkly thing. And Donald Trump, part of his success is that he. floods his own right and just scandal. The narrative moving forward. I mean, I'd forgotten about him trying to buy himself $250 million. Well, a quarter of $1 billion. for compensation for something that everybody's forgotten. Yeah, exactly. So when you have that much information coming at, you, a firehose of information.

coming at you every single day, it can be hard to remember, right? What to focus on, what to focus on. Right. Except that the health care premiums doubling, tripling, quadrupling. should give them the perfect opportunity to head into the midterms. You would think with with a real subject that's impacting real people. and will already be nine months in by that point, kicks in in January. There are lessons to learn from.

There are a few lessons that Democrats, I think should learn. from the last election going into this one. And one of them is that voters didn't see them as caring about them broadly. They thought Democrats were more focused on things like pronouns, small cultural issues that didn't necessarily affect them. And because of that, they weren't focused on affordability. They weren't focused on quality of life. They weren't focused on the needs of voters. That's what they said. That's what voters said in focus groups. That's a that's what voters said in exit polls. It's what voters said, about the Democratic Party.

They would say they're weak and they're out of touch. So Democrats need to focus on. on things people care about right now, which is their grocery prices. If they're going to take the polls. and less on the cultural issues, do they take that message? Because what the Democrats have always had a hard time. doing is separating, separating out the Twitter class. The loud voices on Twitter, right. The cultural class, from everybody else. believing that Twitter is and the bubble that you might live.

in is a real conversation is is where the country is broadly. Well, and I thought it was very interesting. to see the report that came out this last week that said. that a large percentage of political commentary. going on on social media platforms was, in fact, from foreign agents. Oh, yeah. That's interesting. How much of that is is real and how much of it is not also, you know, I have Yaya Rosenberg coming on today to talk about that. And he says, don't underestimate it.

Don't just say, because these accounts are from overseas, that the rise in anti-Semitism for instance, is not real here, that it's all being, fed and fostered by just bad actors. These accounts are being followed. They're being retweeted. Disinformation. The sentiment is being disseminated broadly, and his argument is that it is a real despite where they are located. What they're tapping into is real. But I think what happens often is that they see small bonfires.

on social media started by Americans, and then immediately. throw fuel on it to make it a larger conversation, trying to try to distance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're being incredibly effective. Yeah, I, I yeah, I think so. I think you're right about that. Although sometimes I wonder if we just all got offline. and started talking to people again whether we would, whether we'd feel those divisions as acutely as we do. Gallup had an interesting poll that showed, broadly, Americans agree. on some core Democratic values very broadly. Well, and I think. 40% of Americans believe violence is not the answer.

to solving your political issues. Right. Well, and I think, you see, whenever there's a crisis in America, I'm always. sort of mindful of how neighbors immediately pitch in. You know, that you're flooded. I mean, there was a great report on NPR this morning. about the impacts of the floods in Texas and how the neighbors. had all just pulled together to help each other. And actually, one of the, guys was saying, actually, we're better off. as a community now than we were before because we all talk to each other. Similarly, with the fires in L.A., neighbors helping neighbors, in a way.

And yet we're living at a point where we think everything is in crisis. We all hate each other, and I'm sure that's driven by foreign access. I'm sure. Well, Katie, what are you doing for Thanksgiving? Are you cooking? I have 23 people coming to my house. 23. 20. Wow. People. Okay. And are you cooking or is Tony cooking? I did my cooking already. I made I made 50 spanakopita triangles. I'm Greek, so. Okay, that's my specialty. And then, Tony and some other of the dads and the grandmas are cooking the rest.

Fantastic. I'm going to have a glass of wine and lay up on the couch and chill. So you're not broadcasting on Thanksgiving? No. Gosh, I think it's the first time in 15 years that I'm not working Thanksgiving. Well, you deserve the rest. Enjoy the rest. And then please get us it. And then quick question about Ms.. Now, does it feel different that you're no longer working for MSNBC? Working for Ms.. I love it, I'm happy. I'm really I feel we feel. there's a real community spirit to the company now.

We're all in the same space and our new location. It's nice. The studios are great. I've seen people. 30 Rock is is is a wonderful place, but it everyone feels very siloed. It's a really old building. and there's just pockets of newsrooms or news gatherings. This in this new iteration we are all together. I've seen people I haven't seen in ten years. When there is a breaking news story, like, say, the judge dismisses the Comey case, you can hear everybody talking about it in the newsroom, which I love. I miss that about a newsroom.

So I feel great about it. I feel like we're we're breaking news. I like the new graphics package. I'm surprised at how easy Ms.. Now rolls off the tongue. I was worried about that. But I'm happy. I'm All right, well, we can take that sentiment. and roll into Thanksgiving with it. going to be great. okay Casey. Thank you very much. And I love being here with you. Good. Well, I want you to come back. Well, it's very clear that Katy. Tur pays extraordinary attention to what's going on.

That felt like a deep dive into Donald Trump's first ten months. And we've still got two more months to go before he calls it a year. Anyway, happy Thanksgiving. We'll be back tomorrow with Michael Wolff. We're doing a special episode of Inside. Trump's Head, where we talk about Donald Trump and his food. and what his love of burgers actually says about him. And if you're looking for some holiday entertaining,

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