I've Got the Proof: Trump Is History's Worst Idiot | The Daily Beast Podcast

Who is this guy? The gray bearded guy. Does anybody know who it is? Well, everybody said, gee, that looks a lot like Jeffrey Epstein. Who? Trump is an idiot. There are no lessons to learn from watching Donald Trump except what. not to do. Could this be emergency signals emitting from the president saying, I've had enough. Get me out of here. What more do I need to do to show I'm not fit for office? All these theories, you know. Trump is a master. Biden is playing us, and he knows what he's doing.

This is bullshit. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. You are in for a treat. We have a smorgasbord of drama for you today. We have Melania Gates, we've got JD Vance, we've got Viktor Orban news. We've got the Strait of Hormuz, and of course, we've got my new crush, Pope Leo the 14th. And to go through it all, tell us what to think and frankly, help us all stay sane.

We have David Rothkopf. But before we start our conversation, just a reminder if you haven't subscribed. to the Daily Beast podcast, please. do smash the subscription button wherever you are. The reason we can bring you. conversations like this is because we are independent media. So we really appreciate your support. Thank you for doing that. And now let's get into it. David Rothkopf,

I need help with my mental health. I need help with my mental health. David, there's so much going on. As as they say, as the Jews say on Passover. What makes this day different from all of it is. So we've got JD Vance's worst week ever. We've got Viktor Orban's loss. We've got the Strait of Hormuz being locked down by the Americans as we speak. We've got Trump and Rubio at the UFC match. We've got Melania Gate, what's going on there?

And then we've got Eric Swalwell. We've got Eric Swalwell, who looks promising. to be the Democratic candidate for the governor of California. Okay. But first, David, first, we have this. Please. Go, Pope Leo, go. Pope Leo yeah, I know you got it, but I'm like a Jewish boy.

from new Jersey, as my prior comment just indicated. And I'm like 100% pro Pope Leo. I'm totally converting. I'm totally converting. I love this guy. I love his responses. He's clearly not going to get bullied around by Trump. He took a swipe at Truth Social this morning. He took a swipe at Trump this morning. But I think, you know, let's pull back the camera a little bit. The music helped set the mood. Trump's not content going to war against little countries like Venezuela.

He's not going content going to war against a fairly big country like Iran. Now he wants to go to war with the Vatican. And and he is in the midst of the biggest battles that just him. JD Vance went over, had a fight with a Pete Exxon stuff, said stuff. The Vatican got in trouble, got into a fight with it. The undersecretary of defense, Elbridge Colby, met with people from the Vatican, apparently, according to the story last week and said, you don't want to mess with us.

We're the United States of America. We've got armies and navies and air forces. You don't want to go and and and cross us, or you're going to end up with another schism. Like he made a reference to the Great Schism and an Avignon papacy. And then you have Trump. going after the Pope and saying he doesn't like him, that he's weak on crime, that he has a bad foreign policy, that he likes his mega brother better.

I mean, literally. It's fantastic. And I'm just for those who missed it, we have a great story by Tom. latch on this morning in The Daily Beast, where he's quoting, the Pope, he's quoting the Pope, and he just says, I have no fear of the Trump administration or speaking out. loudly of the message of the gospel, which is what I believe I am here to do. And you referenced him talking about truth social.

He said, it's ironic, the name of the site itself say no more. I mean, thrilling to see someone stand up against Trump like this. Yeah, but I mean Trump's you know, Trump, we always say, is unhinged. This is going even farther than this. What is the next step beyond unhinged? You know, he, in his true social post attacking the pope, said that the pope wouldn't be the pope if it weren't for Trump.

That's right. But he only got the job because. Because he would be able to tackle or deal with Trump, right? Of course. Because everything comes back to Trump, because he's such a narcissist. Well, right. But you know, it minimizes and minimizes the role of the College of Cardinals. It minimizes the whole concept in Catholic theology. that, you know, God has some role in this whole thing. It says, no, it's all about Trump. And then what does he do next?

He posts a picture of himself as Jesus healing somebody. Okay, I think we have a copy of that for people watching this podcast. who haven't seen it, can we put up the picture? I hit that wait a minute, wait a minute. That's that's that's me in there. How did that make. That's not the picture. Trump has never looked that good in his life, even with the eye.

For those who don't, who aren't watching this but are listening, David. Rothkopf has inserted a picture of himself. as Jesus, blessing somebody, as a riff on the Donald Trump, picture of himself. Do we have a Donald Trump one? That I had nothing to do with that. Oh, yeah, you and I. Yeah, me and I, we're we're we're really tight terms, but but, I mean, can you imagine any other world leader.

running pictures of themselves saying, oh yeah, I'm God? No, that's me as God. I met maybe Margaret Thatcher. at one point, but no, I can't. And who is he ministering to? I sent this picture to a few people this morning to say, who is this guy, the gray bearded guy? Does anybody know who it is? Well, everybody obviously in all of the social media said, gee, that looks a lot like Jeffrey Epstein, which just proves.

it's not just cerebral and just proves. You're absolutely right. I know what I said. I didn't think of it as being Jeffrey Epstein. I was thinking more of kind of Eric Swalwell, JD Vance, I mean, doesn't look like any it. Looks much closer. So look closely at looks. Just like David. David, just before we go on, I want to describe it. for people that might not have seen it, who are listening to this podcast.

So it's a picture of Donald Trump that he's created on guy. in Jesus like robes, basically blessing. someone who looks as if it's he's on his deathbed. And then this concerned looking white people looking on this, there's no person of color in the picture. Well, there's not there's no people of color in heaven. Obviously. Right. Obviously because of the visa restrictions in heaven, obviously. I mean, this is but this is Trump to you and he's got light emanating from, you know, every part of his body.

Yep. And, and and he's a deity. And in his own mind he's a deity. And it's got to be in his own mind because literally in the course of the past. month, he has alienated every major religious group on the planet. In the days between Ramadan, Passover. and Easter, Trump alienated Muslims, making fun of them and his, you know, praise be to Allah remark. Of course, it's the same guy who tried to impose a muslim ban. in his first days in his last term, and he said any Jew.

that didn't support him was an idiot and now is gone. After all the Catholics, in just a matter of days, you know, this is political suicide, but but it's also kind of. bizarrely self-destructive, narcissistic, megalomaniacal lunacy. With spring gearing up, my. guess is you might be making plans to paint the town red.

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And you've got to wonder. because Trump won Catholics. 55% to 43%, I think it's so. But right and not over Joe Biden, of course, of Kamala. Well, yeah. But nonetheless, look at his cabinet. JD Vance, the poor schmuck who's had the worst week of his life. Well, and we'll get into that in a minute. Yeah I'm excited. Yeah, but.

But but JD Vance. just put out a book saying Catholicism means everything to me. And and his boss is in a fight with the pope, and, Well, and let us not forget that JD Vance last saw the last pope. The day before he died. Yeah, well, JD Vance was his last visitor. Well, that and no, I bet that there's a there's that's a sign of something. one suspects and and and on top, on top of this, Marco Rubio.

got no one doing what posting Bible quote very serious about his Catholicism. RFK Jr comes from the most. famous Catholic family in America. The cabinet is full of Catholic. Did one of these people speak out? Has a single one of them said, you know, attacking. the Pope and presenting yourself as Jesus is a little uncomfortable for me. Well, I'm sure they're all sitting around going, we love it.

You're absolutely this is a good new Ralphie. Why don't you take over the church? The head of the church. I mean, I'm sure they're just sycophants in a way, as they all want to do. Yeah. And who does this leave Trump with? Evangelicals, that's all. And, you know, he's got one man who's the head of his faith office. who is a story in her own right, who is the one who does these laying on of. hands and. Always makes me laugh with the laying on of hands, because we know he's supposed to be a germaphobe. And when she leans in with her hands, you see him.

looking kind of slightly quizzical about the whole thing. Yeah. But, you know, he's like going with it. And and so here we are, folks in 2026 with a president. who thinks it's okay to say, yeah, I'm God, I'm, I'm, I'm God. I mean, his performance doesn't suggest he isn't. omniscient, all knowing, infallible being. But but he thinks it's okay.

And so, you know, goes back to your first comment. You know, you said your mental health. I I'm not worried about your mental health, Janet. You you seem very sound and grounded to me, but the president of the United States, he's. Did you see what he posted after he posted the picture of him? As Jesus. Go on. What did he post? He posted a picture of a Trump hotel on the moon. I did see that which which would be great if he would put a Trump hotel on the moon.

and go and go and run it. I mean, I could see him as a general manager. No, no, I think we could get a lot of people behind that. The Lunar Trump Hotel. Right, was with or without oxygen. But this is literal lunacy. It's, you know, lunar lunacy on the moon, I mean lunacy. Lunar lunacy is what I'm trying to say. Lunar lunacy. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene said it's an Antichrist spirit, this this insane posting of himself as God. Well, you know, she's pissed off because he wouldn't.

support her candidacy for Senate in Georgia, right? And he wouldn't let her in the cabinet. But at least now she's outside of it so she can say what she thinks. Well, I'm glad somebody can say what they think. Well, and they're saying all that. They're saying you're the best. I mean, who can ignore Pete Hicks US. entreaties every time he has to get up and say something where he has to go. And all this is possible because of our great president. who is committed to doing the right thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. I wonder if could these be could.

these be emergency signals. emitting from the president saying, I've had enough, get me out of here? What more do I need to do to show I'm not fit for office? Please tie me up and take me away with that. You know, like that suggests that there is a healthy impulse somewhere. in Trump that I just don't believe exists. In fact, all these theories you know, oh, Trump is a master Biden. He's playing us and he knows what he's doing. And this is one distraction after another. And it's all part of his 4D chess.

This is bullshit. This is a decaying 79 year old, addled, ignorant man who is also losing his marbles. And what we're getting here is the incoherence of an incoherent brain. I wrote a I wrote a piece for you guys over the weekend in which I assert, and I will defend this, that Donald Trump. is the most powerful idiot in history.

I think you may be right. I mean, it's just it's astonishing. How does how did it happen, David? I mean, we can't go through how it happened again. But you do, you know, I mean, I thought there was a glimmer of hope. One's always looking for glimmers of hope. There was a glimmer of hope in Hungary over the weekend. You mentioned it was J.D. Vance. His worst week ever. J.D. Vance had obviously gone over to stump for Viktor Orban, and there was a wonderful moment where he was standing on stage.

and held up his cell phone and said he was going to call President Trump. And the first time President Trump didn't pick up, and I thought, oh my goodness, he's going to humiliate J.D. in front of a Hungarian audience. But in fact, he picked up on the second time around. But but last night, Viktor Orban, who's been in power in Hungary for 16. years, actually conceded and conceded gracefully and said, essentially. the people have spoken and Petr make a has, has taken over.

And I wondered if there was a sense of relief for Viktor. Orban that actually 16 years doing this is quite enough. It's double what we Americans allow all presidents. But I wondered if there is a moment where you've just had enough. And he realized that he was squeezed between Trump and Putin, and this isn't fun anymore. Well, I mean, that that that may be so. And I'm sure there's a lovely suite waiting for him at Mar-A-Lago. because Trump loved him and, you know, had him there.

And, you know, he'll make a lot of money and whatever he does next in his life, as he's supported by the oligarchs and others, his agenda, he advanced around the world. I would only push back and say Trump doesn't. like losers and Viktor Orban has gone from winner to loser. Well, yeah. And I think Trump's going to like Viktor Orban less, because what's going to happen. is the new government, which won by a ton of votes, in part thanks to JD Vance. You know, JD Vance went there last week.

He went put his arm around Viktor Orban. And immediately Hungarian polls showed Orban's rating went down. Plummet. If it fell because of associations with JD Vance. Well, and probably Orban thought, good Lord, I don't want what happened. to the last pope to happen to me, said, but the case. Yeah, just JD Vance is going to be like, you know, those. those sort of, nursing homes where there's a cat that's on the bed. Oscar the cat, Oscar the cat that goes inside the cat and the.

Cat, the cat of death that hops on the bed and you go, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Go away. You're not here for me. My time is not up. But. But JD Vance is going to be the cat of death of this administration. because he put his arm around Viktor Orban. and immediately his ratings plummeted. But Orban, you know, is not just a symbol. of how somebody can fight democracy, embrace the Kremlin, attack Ukraine.

and impede the EU and succeed, which is all the things that Trump loves. Orban, you know, became a. kind of a convener of nutcase right wingers from around the world. This kind of global coalition of anti-democratic, ethno nationalist that includes Bibi Netanyahu and Narendra. modi and Erdogan and Bolsonaro when he was in power in Brazil. and Melaye in Argentina and so forth, and this hub.

that facilitated that and funneled money to European, right wing movements, from Russian oligarchs, that's going to go. But worse, the new prime minister, who won a greater than two thirds. majority, swore from the get go that he's going to hold them accountable. He's going to investigate, he's going to go after their corruption. and all I can say is the stories that's going to turn up.

about Orban and the Russians and Orban and Trump. and Orban and CPec and Orban and American right wingers, and Orban and right wingers across Europe, it's going to be super. damned uncomfortable for Trump and all these others. So it's not just a loss. It's not just a road map for Democrats here on. how do you defeat somebody like this? And by the way, punch line, have a huge turnout so they can't cheat their way,

with little, you know, maneuvers, into a victory. You have to have a huge turnout. And you have to say you're going to hold them accountable, but. it's it's it's also something that could have, long term negative consequences. Thanks to these investigations that are going to start now in Hungary. And so. you want to you want a feel good of you want to. you want to like a little feelgood moment.

It could be that this year. we see Orban go down, there will be an election in Israel. And Netanyahu is increasingly unpopular. as his war with Iran becomes less popular. You could see Netanyahu lose. and you could say the right wing MAGA, Mike Johnson, GOP control, at least of the House go. And today, there's a new report out from one of the leading political. analyst firms in Washington that says that they could lose the Senate, too.

So this could be sort of the beginning of the end of global MAGA. And, and and that's that, you know, that's something. that, you know, maybe some of that, triumphant music. we had at the beginning, you know, could go along with as well. That's so interesting. I hadn't thought of it from those. from that perspective, the two things I was left with were.

does Trump look at this and think, you know what, Viktor Orban's mistake was holding an election. and we should not hold elections and we will lean in further. to our attempts to disrupt the midterms. And then I thought, why isn't Gavin Newsom standing on the stage with Viktor Orban? Because Newsom pops up wherever there is a good moment. And if I were the Democrats, I would be studying the the, the open. decline or defeat and pay to, make,

this incredible win, actually. Yeah, of course they should be studying it, because what they had was a guy who was very clear about where he stood. And and let's be honest, he's a center right candidate. He is not, you know, you know, some wacky liberal candidate, but. said he was pro NATO, said he was pro EU. said he was anti corruption, said he was pro-democracy. You know, those were the things that the people of Hungary were looking for.

And then he worked and he worked and he worked to get this big turnout. I think they got nearly up to 75% turnout, record turnout in Hungary and all of those things. And this promise to hold Orban accountable was the formula. And although Hungary is a little country and far from the United States, that kind of clarity and message, that kind of clarity on accountability, that kind of grassroots effort to get a big turnout are all key.

And then there's one final thing that there is key, and that is this is not an election year or I frankly think. a period in which things are about left versus right. This was an argument about past versus future. Orban wants to turn the clock back. Trump wants to turn the clock back. They want to go to old laws. They want to go to old ways. They want to reverse global trends. The candidate that is going to be. embraced is going to be the candidate who says, no, I'm about the future.

I'm about how do we do better tomorrow? I'm about how do we succeed in a global environment. with new competitors and new technologies and, and, and deal with the reality of today and the future. And so I think elections will be passed versus future, not left versus right. Okay. So I have a question for you along those lines then. Has there ever been and you're sitting in front of a very erudite book bookshelf.

Yes. Has there been, ever a president who has dumped his vice. president mid mid range mid presidency? Because if I was Donald Trump and I were looking at what happened. immediately in the polls, in Hungary, when JD Vance stood. at the rally holding Viktor Orban's hand as they raised their hands together.

And I looked at JD Vance coming home. somewhat slumped from the talks in Pakistan. The rain, rain, the Iranian, the Iranian peace talks. Am I thinking I should dump JD Vance? How can I get someone else in here as fast as I can? I feel like Trump has broken other norms. Why couldn't he break this one? Well, first of all, let's not ignore. this has happened multiple times in our history. It happened multiple times in the presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Well, he went through vice president. He went through several vice presidents and and, of course, you know, Richard Nixon had a vice president who was had to resign. because he was, being prosecuted for crimes for which he was later found guilty. And he had to switch. But but, you know, he he nonetheless had to switch, in the middle of the stream from Spiro Agnew to Nelson Rockefeller. So it's out there. I mean, we can find other examples in history, but,

you know, Roosevelt's the best such example. I think, you know, Trump kind of likes this idea. that there's a battle for succession between JD and Marco Rubio. It was very interesting that here. in the middle of these negotiations, as you mentioned at the beginning, he sends off JD Vance, who has no international experience. at all, has never handled the negotiation to go with a team. that had no capability to understand the issues, nuclear issues and others.

We sent five people. The Iranians sent 60 people, 60 people. They sent 60. We sent five, one of whom was Vance, one of whom was Steve Wyckoff, whose track record as a negotiator and in these kind of matters is terrible, one of whom was the president's son in law. Nobody was a nuclear specialist. Nobody was an Iran specialist.

And, you know, obviously, but, you know, even Vance wasn't empowered to negotiate. He had to apparently, according to reports, walk out of the meetings. on a regular basis to call Trump to see what it was okay to agree to. So this whole thing was a sham. But the interesting part of this is this in this administration, which has got it, the State Department got it. The intelligence community essentially eviscerated the National Security Council, gotten rid of all its best people, the Department of Defense.

There's one person who is secretary of state and national security adviser. who has some experience doing this stuff, who is JD Vance's rival? And he doesn't go to the negotiation. That's Marco Rubio. He goes with Trump to a wrestling match. What? Well, this massive, important negotiation is taking place. Trump goes with Rubio off to a, UFC match in Miami. How weird is that?

Well, and how unserious? I mean, we've said many times on this podcast that they are ultimately. an unserious government, and that felt like the most unserious comment of all. were, of course, they were obviously maybe JD Vance was kind of frantically. texting them or WhatsApp ING them or signaling them because, Rubio kept showing his phone to Trump, which again, seems like such a strange gesture that what you imagine,

you know, world world negotiations going on here. are being sort of shown to Trump in between some pings and yelling. And, you know, with Trump, you know, he probably brought. Rubio along like he was a prop. Oh, look, I have the secretary of state here. He's going to do this kind of thing in a desperate effort. to impress the UFC crowd. You know, like who you know, he's like, who's he trying to impress?

Some, you know, steroidal, you know, over, over pumped up, you know, aging wrestler or. you know, the gangsters that are attracted to the UFC crowd. This is one of the weird things about Trump is for decades, it's it's he's been drawn to the fight crowd, to Don King, to going to fights, to being ringside.

And, you know, everybody in the United States knows that the crowds. that go to these things, it's it's this whole kind of dark underworld. It's one of the few places where the underworld comes out in public. dressed in shiny suits. And, you know, two revealing dresses and, you know, it's it's it's kind of their equivalent. of the Met Ball or something like that, you know, where. they get to go out and and show their stuff for each other.

And I think Rubio was there as a train market. I think he was there as a prop to say, hey, look, I'm president. I got this guy. He's dealing with that war over there. And oh, look at the chokehold. That's a pretty good chokehold where, you know, hey. Well, maybe he maybe he's getting. strategic ideas for a chokehold in the Strait of Hormuz. Well, he did come up with a real banger. Did me. you know, the Iranians had a blockade which was screwing up the world economy.

Trump's talks, his fake talks as sham talks to distract. from his genocidal threat from last week break down. And he goes, oh, I've got an idea. Well, blockade their blockade. We'll have a double secret, super duper blockade, which will put us, you know, in charge of things and show that we can do a blockade, too. Although what does it do? Does it make oil prices go up yet? Does it make the world economy less stable? Yeah.

Is it easy to do? No, no, the experts are right now, I talked to one last night saying. this is very complicated. It's very hard to do. And it raises a lot of interesting questions. And I'll just give you what. what happens the first time a. Chinese flagged ship wants to pull in. or out of an Iranian port, and they encounter an American vessel, are the Americans going to fire on a Chinese ship?

Are they going to block a Chinese flagship from its mission? Are they going to escalate this. into a global confrontation between the world's two superpowers? Because Trump got into a stupid war and he doesn't know. how to get the fuck out, because that's where this leads. And that's why this idea is one of the dumbest ideas. that you could possibly imagine. And soon Trump is going to have to try to find a way to step down.

From this one, because it's just going to make things worse. It's enough to turn one into a prepper. There was a good line on Saturday Night Live on on the weekend, which I don't normally watch, actually, but I happen to watch Weekend Update, and they quoted Trump as saying, Trump doesn't understand why Iran doesn't understand. that it's got no cards when it's literally holding a street. I told I was a very good line, which sort of actually weirdly sums up.

the whole situation that that nobody even knew before we started. bombing Iran, that Iran had the potential to hold up the Strait of Hormuz. Well, I didn't know, but there we are. Well go. On. Everybody knew every every war game, every war game that has ever taken place. Well, well that's true. I know that's true, that that is central to all the wargaming that goes on. in the intelligence community. Yet what I really mean is why didn't Trump know that?

Why didn't he think this might happen? Why didn't Marco Rubio, with all his many jobs, how did not he understand that this was a possibility? Well, I go back to my earlier point. Trump is an idiot. Trump doesn't take advice. Trump had people around him, including reportedly JD Vance, who very quickly. was out there leaking stories about how he was against this whole thing. You know, saying, don't do this. even apparently, you know, the the the chairman of the Joint.

Chiefs raising Cain, was advising caution. And Trump said, no, I understand this better. You know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna ignore all the evidence and all the history. and all the war games and all the experts, and I'm going to do it my way. And of course, it's, you know, there was only one person really egging him. And, you know, I we need to be honest about it.

It was Bibi Netanyahu, because Bibi has gone to every president. for the past 25 years and said, let's attack Iran and every single. president, Republican and Democrat, has said, nah, I'm not that stupid, baby. 93 million people. This is a big country. It's very complicated. Geographically. It's difficult. They have a lot of leverage over the rest of the world. They can make help in the region with all their proxies. But Trump fell for it because he's a mark.

Trump is the sucker. He's not the master dealmaker. There are no lessons to learn from watching Donald Trump, except what not to do. Except what not to do. So you wrote another very good column for us on Friday. about what on earth was Melania talking about when she got up there. and said, I don't know, Jeffrey Epstein? Never. Jeffrey Epstein, never met Jeffrey Epstein? Who is Jeffrey Epstein?

I mean, what was she talking about? What what was that about? Well, I mean, there are two questions there. I think that's a good question. I think another question is, how does Donald Trump's wife. walk to the podium in the white House. and not have Donald Trump's. team know what she's going to say? Have Donald Trump say he didn't know what she was going to say? I mean, this guy obviously can't manage a war.

He can't manage an economy. He can't manage what's going on in the United States of America. But he obviously he also can't imagine the house he lives in. He can't manage, you know, the people. around him is the inner circle or his wife. And I think that's, you know, a bigger, you know, sort of red flag to everybody. And the fact that this, this woman who America. detests comes out. and brings the story back to Epstein at just the moment, Trump.

has literally started a war to distract the country from this scandal. And so it is a story of dysfunction. And also the things she said were such lies, like, oh, I had no relationship with Epstein. And so then immediately, you know, hundreds of pictures of her. and Epstein pop up and she said, and I didn't really know Julian Maxwell. and, and all of a sudden, you know, email, texts, hey, let's get together.

Oh, I love you. God. You look cute. And that thing, it it's. just ridiculous what she is saying. And I think, you know, the prevailing theory. And you'll know more about this than I do because of you. You know, you guys track this stuff very closely, but the prevailing theory. is that she was trying to get ahead of some stories. that seem to be on the verge of being released, by a woman who was deported from the United States,

who was part of this Jeffrey Epstein underworld. And her name is Amanda Garrow, a Brazilian model. And she came to I think she came to America on the Easter Express. She was brought to America by Jeffrey Epstein and a guy. who then turned out to be her, the father of her son. Right. And this guy is who is a sleazebag modeling impresario in the in the, in the. in the same vein as Trump, who then, with this woman dabbled in diplomacy.

I don't even know how you do that, but they like, represented. in the U.N., you know, a couple of tiny Caribbean nations. You know, this. this guy apparently called up the white House. or whomever he knew and said, this woman is a pain in my ass. And she got deported. And so she's angry and she says, I'm going to spill the beans. And she's, you know, she did a kind of a nothing burger of an interview, with, Spanish newspaper El Pais over the weekend.

But apparently she's going to do an interview with CNN. Maybe more will come out there, but Melania is afraid, and, you know, she doesn't seem to care about. anything else that's going on in the world except this, my final. But my final point that I'd like to make, which is that Melania goes out. and he says, she says in your voice, not my, I did not know Jeffrey Epstein.

And and seems to think it's. really important to differentiate or separate distance herself. from this horrible sex trafficker. when she is married to someone who has been credibly accused. of serial sex abuse of rape. and who is a fraudster, a criminal who is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. Jeffrey Epstein is one of the worst people that any of us can imagine.

But and here's an important distinction. Donald Trump is much worse than Jeffrey Epstein. and Melania Trump is married. Well, she seemed very keen to have the victims. give evidence to the oversight committee. And of course, Donald Trump is mentioned in the Epstein files thousands of times. We know there's a dump of 3 million files.

His attorney general, Pam Bondi, was fired. over her handling of the Epstein files. So either Melania is trying to get ahead of something. Perhaps this is in response to Michael Wolff's case against her, where he's suing the first lady using the New York anti-SLAPP suit, and that cases is on the judge's desk at the moment, and they're waiting to hear any day whether or not the case can go ahead. So it's a mystery. And she's also very clearly, as she did in her Melania documentary,

indicating without. getting divorced that she is separate to her husband. So her husband appears many, many times in the Epstein files. She's calling for the oversight committee to start talking to the victims, and she's saying that she was nothing to do with it. It's also odd that she came over in, at the time that the modeling world was sort of peak modeling world.

The the agencies were essentially run by, a guy, a really nasty guy called Gerald Murray. Then there was Jean-Luc Brunel, who ended up committing suicide. in a French jail accused of underage rape. Trump. Trump had a modeling agency. And Paolo's, Polly, the man who says that he introduced Donald and Melania. So for Melania to say she didn't know Jeffrey Epstein when she came. from Eastern Europe, which was where Jeffrey Epstein literally.

was collecting girls and bringing them to the US is really odd. I mean, it's just. Well, it's more that it's more than odd. And you talk about this on your other show, but you know. Melania was involved in a lot of really sleazy business. You know, it's kind of horrible. And yet there's some deal afoot. I don't get it. You know, you're like a media bigwig, so maybe you get it.

But there's some small wig. I'm a very small wig, I think. Well, but you know, the what? What? Like why isn't this a story? Why isn't that? Why isn't why haven't people figured out how she got her visa? Why don't people write about this part of her past? Why don't it seem salacious enough to get a lot of clicks? Why? There seems to be an agreement someplace? Or are they all just afraid of getting sued? Well, it's a very good question. I think. I think people have covered it, actually, and I think,

I mean, perhaps not enough, but one of the things. I'm curious about is, in theory, this is an incredible immigrant story. This young girl arrives from Slovenia and then ends up. as the first lady of the United States. It should be an incredible the ultimate immigrant story. You can come here, you can marry the president of the United States. What an extraordinary journey. And instead, it's shrouded in mystery, especially her first ten years here.

and her own documentary about herself, where. she would have the opportunity to either create this myth. or at least lean into the myth, which is the ultimate American dream. The American story she just spends on the 20 days. in the run up to the inauguration, where she's just surrounded by people. She's paying her stylist a fashion person, her event planner. I mean, there's no sense of a narrative.

of her life in there whatsoever. Well, that's because I think the story of Donald and Melania, it's not the American dream that you've just described. It's kind of the anti American dream. It's the story of a guy who broke the law, who operated on the edges of society, who alienated people, who hung out with gangsters, who was involved in sex trafficking, who was a serial sex abuser,

and a woman who was part of that world. and sort of played it to suit her own purposes, end up achieving. unimaginable success, despite the fact that everything we think about the United States. being a moral country, being a country of laws, being a country. where the best get ahead, a meritocracy would suggest.

that these are the people least likely to succeed. And it confirms what a lot of people think. that the way you get ahead in the US is you break the rules, you play dirty, and then when you have enough money, you can cover up the bad parts. and you can make yourself look like you are good. Now this is an old story. It's happened throughout all of human history, but. it's happening right now in front of our eyes. And it doesn't just you know, it's not just a political story.

It reveals grotesque. dysfunction in the United States of America right now. That this is what we lift up, this thing that we should be putting down, putting aside, putting into jail, condemn. is what we are exalting and empowering. So another politician who's got himself into trouble. was the California front runner, Eric Swalwell,

who was running for California governor. And then at least four, if not five, women have come out and said they were sexually abused by him. One woman says that she was raped by him not once, but twice. Very, very quickly, unusually quickly. Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, the senior Democrats around him. came out and said, that's it. You're done. The campaign is over. He had some flailing around and said, the only apology io is to my wife.

Then he apologized, and now he's pulled out of the race. What are your thoughts? It's a very disturbing story, but it dovetails with what we were just talking about. because it reveals. some real problems, both on, you know, that exist. on the Democratic side of the ledger as well as the Republican side. Everybody says that what Swalwell was doing, was well known that it was an open secret.

I think that's why a lot of those people spoke out so quickly. But why didn't they speak out before? Why didn't the fact that he was behaving this way. be an impediment to him getting to where he was, because he was about to become the governor of California, he was going to win the primaries and become the governor of a state. that is the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. And Democratic leadership, who knew about his past?

Apparently let it get that far. and worse, you know, or equally bad, he thought that this was something he could get away with. And, you know, this goes that relates to the Trump story. If you have enough power, you think you can erase the blemishes, you think you have immune impunity, that you can behave however you want. And obviously, this guy had the arrogance.

to think that that was the case. And, you know, I met Eric Swalwell a few times. I've had meals with him. I've talked to him. I certainly didn't know him well, but I knew him and he was, you know, sort of bright eyed and ambitious. I podcast he appeared on the podcast. He was very tough on Trump. He seemed like, you know, he had a real future in politics. I didn't know anything about this other side of him. But it's deeply disturbing.

to then discover, that this kind of thing exists in the Democratic Party. It actually exists across our society. Men, powerful men, still can get away with what they want. I think one of the worst parts of the story. is that these women didn't feel secure in their jobs. They didn't feel safe enough to call out what was happening as it was happening, and there weren't mechanisms to stop it from happening again.

These things need to be fixed. first in the Democratic Party, because the Republicans are elevating. serial sex abusers and people credibly accused of rape. And, and, and so clearly they're not going to do anything about it. They elected the guy who said, I can grab them by the pussy. Right. Doesn't seem to be disqualifying for a Republican. Right. And so if there is going to be any hope.

that we are going to sort of restore. any decency to America, it's got to come from the other party. There are only two. There will not be a third one. Not for a long time anyway, given the rules of American politics. and and the Democrats haven't been doing what they should be doing on this. And this reveals that we also have another situation where there. like four members of Congress right now, two Democrats, two Republicans. who are guilty of stuff that should get them kicked out of the Congress.

And there's even bipartisan talk about kicking them all out of the Congress, which would be more people getting kicked out. than have been kicked out since reconstruction. And, and and so, you know, I just think, you know, you look at Trump and he's a lunatic and he's a terrible president. It's doing terrible things. And he's a tool of the oligarchs and all the stuff we normally talk about. But I also think we need to talk about that. He is a symptom,

of a country that is broken right now. And if we are going to recover, it's not just going to take. an election victory of somebody with a different name. It's going to take, commitment. to make values, make following the law. to make merit important again. in the way that they used to be.

And, and and we're, we're a long way from that. Right. I had, you said you had Eric Swalwell on your podcast, and I had tea with him. at about a month ago at a friend's house, and she was having a sort of, you know, she was having an introductory tea for him with various people in New York. And it was a really small group there, about 12 of us. And we sat around talking, and I only made one note from it, which and it was sort of an off the record thing, but my only note was concerned for his own safety,

and he spent a lot of the time that we were together, and it was probably an hour, an hour and a half, talking about his own safety. and how dangerous it was for Congress people now and how, they were targets and how his wife was frightened by it. and how Congress people, for the most part, could not afford security. And I was thinking about it through the lens, actually, of Jasmine Crockett, who said that now when she goes out, she has to wear a bulletproof vest.

And obviously, you know, it's smart to be wise about what feels like. increasing levels of political violence. But I couldn't help thinking when I went back. and reflected on the conversation that actually, in some weird way, by focusing on his need for security, he understood that he was in a dangerous position.

and that actually his enemy was himself and I. I wrote a column about it for Substack, which got quite a sort of. quite a good response, but just that sense that I think in that meeting, even a month ago, he knew that the walls were closing in, and the next day he was on CNN and we had an exchange back and forth. because I wanted him to come on the podcast. He seemed a lively, a lively congressperson. He was clearly the front runner for for what's such an important job.

And as you say, it's the fifth, fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. And yet it just all slipped away from him. And he has no one to blame but himself, no one to blame but himself. What a waste. What a waste. It it is a waste. And and, you know, I think when he was speaking about these, safety issues, you know, as I think his dad was a cop, I think his brother was a cop. He was a prosecutor.

He was very involved with law enforcement. He was very involved in common sense gun reforms. And a lot of his political positions were good positions. But being holding a good position. does not absolve one of the responsibility to be a good person. Well, and it's not a good position to have a former staffer. say that she told you to get off repeatedly to get off, and he wouldn't. Ever or to take advantage of somebody is a clearly drunk.

or any of any of the other things that that, that he did. But again, this goes back to this thing that we've talked about several times. here, which is in our very. stratified society, people at the upper echelons, because of power or money, feel that they have impunity. They feel they can cheat, that they can steal, and they can operate by different rules, that the rules that apply. to little people don't apply to them.

Look at Ellen and all his wives and his kind of breeding ranch. Look at the accusations of people like against people. like him, of of of of corrupt behavior. I mean, last week Trump tweeted out promotion. for Palantir stock in, in, in, you know, in the middle of a day. And we're just like, yeah, okay. They can they can get away with all of this stuff. And we're living at a moment where the rich and powerful. are in a separate country,

you know, kind. of Uber United States of America where they, are having their way with us and we are paying the consequences. And I really think that this is what. 2026 election, 2028 election's going to have to be about. It's going to have to be about whether we can and, the sense of impunity of what. a very promising politician, Jon Ossoff, running again for senator in Georgia,

has has referred to as the Epstein class. The Epstein class in America is the problem. It is what drives inequality. It is what drives the sense of impunity. It is what puts people who are in need, down, keeps them from getting the services they need. It is what draws us in closer to the Orban. and and Putin and oligarchic governments around the world.

This period, this ascendancy, like the robber baron period. in the late 19th century, has got to come to a close. Or the idea of the United States. as a land of real opportunity is a land where all of us have a chance. Is over. And that that's the those are the stakes in this coming election. And in the next one. And each of the things. we've talked about today illustrates had just how I the stakes are.

David Rothkopf, you had one job today. You had one job which was to help me with my mental health. And now I am plunged into gloom again. I am plunge David. Insufficient. Disappointing. Disappointing. It may be that a bit of despair. is a sign of mental health these days. A bit of despair is a sign of mental health. Maybe. And maybe it will galvanize us to stay alert to quite what's going on.

Look, let's just go back. Auburn lost. You can defeat these people. Anne Applebaum, a great journalist about this. stuff, has an article in The Atlantic now that says Illiberalism is not inevitable. We have a glimmer of hope here. Netanyahu can lose the Republicans in Congress can lose. Trump, as we have talked about week in and week out, is getting defeated. day in and day out, in court, battle after court battle.

In in terms of pushback from the international community, there is hope. So. So don't despair. Don't just focus on the negative. Johanna. Feel better. Accentuate the positive. And also, as we were just beginning to record, a court had thrown out. Donald Trump's case against the Wall Street Journal, which is also a sign of, of hope. It's a sign of hope, David. All right. In that last two minutes, you've you've taken me from the floor to.

I'm back. I'm back out dancing again. We will stay vigilant. The Daily Beast, which is why we hope you will subscribe to us. And you will join us again next Monday. For more conversations with The Daily Beast global affairs. columnist David Rothkopf. David, go about your day and have fun and. and think about converting to Catholicism. Yes, boss. Yes, I'll convert. I have to have my bar mitzvah.

Nikkei. Folks, I think you have it annulled. Can't the Catholic Church deal with that? Well, just annul everything. I'm. I'm married to a Catholic woman. Does that count? I think it does count. I think I think it does count. And it didn't. RFK junior get one of his marriages annulled? That was a different pope, though. This is a new pope. It's a new Catholic church, for. All we know. RFK junior actually ate one of his ex-wives. We did. We just. I mean, the things we don't know about RFK Jr,

are are scarier than than what we do know. And I think we're about to learn more about RFK junior, because there's a tell all book coming out about him this week. Isabel Vincent from the New York Post, I believe. I'm talking to her tomorrow, and I'm very curious to find out. I know you got it. That's okay. You got it. Because this is another one of those cases, like Trump is from. the bottom of society in the worst possible ways and manages to make his way. Here is a guy who was a heroin addict with a brain worm who has been a crackpot,

for decades and, and and and somehow. he ended up in the cabinet that that's kind of special. And of course, he's launching his own podcast. So I wonder if he will interview himself about the book that's coming out. By the way, that is the last thing you made a reference to acid. How the better Melania impression and the better. Melania skit this weekend where on SNL UK?

I agree, I agree it was definitely it was a very good one. She emerges out of a hedgerow and it's very funny. Very funny. And also it's so good. There's a very good observation about why, just to set the stage for people. It's three people having a barbecue in a rather grim British backyard, and someone says, why are we having a barbecue? And the guy says, because the sun was out four days ago, which is exactly. why you would have a barbecue in the UK because someone spotted the sun once.

Yeah. That, by the way, is British optimism. Joanna, that is the kind of thing that should buoy you as you face the week. You know. It's not me. I carry it with me a few times, David, that. the sun was out four days ago and we should have a barbecue. Exactly. The sun is out four days ago. Everybody. It's spring. It's spring. So, highly recommend your columns in the daily Beast. The two one on Friday, one over the weekend. And of course, there'll be more columns coming this week.

I hope David and we will see each other next Monday for more mental. health, more mental health with David Rothkopf. All right. See you then. See you then. Bye. Have so many favorite parts of that conversation. The theories about Melania, JD Vance's worst week ever, and Trump. as historically the world's biggest idiot that he is a mark. that Bibi Netanyahu has pleaded.

with the presidents of the United States. as long as he's been in politics, for them to join him in a war in Iran. And they have always said no. And here he has found what David Rothkopf calls his mark, his useful idiot to follow the Israelis into, into a war with Iran and who knows where it ends up, but certainly not in peace talks with JD Vance at the helm, at least not this week.

So let me know what your favorite part of the conversation was, or what. you think is going to happen with this Trump government. and Iran or or this Trump government and frankly, anything. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devin, Roger Reno, Ryan Murray, Rachel Parsa, Heather Pizarro, Neil Rosen.

The house.