I Know Why Trump's Pathetic Circus Is Collapsing | The Daily Beast Podcast

He shakes it up. I like watching him. Unlike other politicians, that's been a huge part of his power. and success is the entertainment. But failing at even this inconsequential stuff like the Great American State Fair. feeds the correct view that, wow, he's kind of a copper, isn't it? Here we are trying. to this authoritarian boot can't even make the trains run on time. Bread and circuses. As has been said leaders for thousands of years, it's fine if you've got the bread,

but just the circus alone and giant ballrooms for rich people. and giant tax benefits for rich people, and giant crypto scams for rich people. While I can't afford meat at the grocery store, that doesn't go down so well. I'm Johanna cold. This is the Daily Beast podcast, and sometimes I love this job so much. because I get to talk about the thing that I'm most obsessed by America and. the state of it right now with people who've been thinking about this for years.

Today's guest is a favorite of The Daily Beast podcast, Kurt Andersen. He's an author. He's a soothsayer. He was the co-founder of spy, and he explains why America is so in love. with characters like Donald Trump and the characters around Donald Trump. So today we talk about the 250th anniversary. We talk about UFC. We talk about the sycophants around the cabinet table. And, well, we talk about how do we get here?

How did we get here and what happens next. So. before. we get into it, very quick reminder, please press the subscription button. We are independent media and we appreciate your support. Now Kurt Anderson let's get into it. Kurt Anderson, the man who created the phrase the fucking of America. And I couldn't help thinking, and I don't know if this is me.

being a snob and I want to get into this conversation with. Yes, but when I saw the erection of the Octagon. on the South Lawn of the white House for the UFC fight, which Donald Trump has chosen as his cultural emblem. for the 250th anniversary of America, I couldn't help thinking, oh, Kurt Anderson foresaw all this with the fucking of America. Is that what's going on here? I think in his case, yes, it is, but as as I wrote in my book,

Fantasy Land, there is a long history and much of it fine and good. I mean, America is this motley creation. of of of ordinary people and small democratic multitudes, right? So it's not all bad. And I love country music and I like boxing and, you know, so it's not exactly a snobbish,

you know, oh my God, censorious. It is this idiotic, highly politicized. use of, of pop culture symbols in this case, in this really debasing way. You know, I don't know if you saw the movie. Idiocracy, if your listeners have, but I'm sure lots of people have seen it. I mean, people mention it in the comments all the time. Well, and it was as Mike judge, the great filmmaker,

animation guy, whatever director. created this film that I thought in 2006 was terribly over. the top about this future where America has. is run by idiots and morons and, and and kind of, you know, reality show carnival like freaks and show business. Well, here we are in so many ways. And indeed, people mentioned your comments. I, starting in 2017, couldn't get Idiocracy out of my head.

Anyway, the president in that movie is this, you know, showbiz mad man who shoots shoots. an automatic weapon around Congress and and but and dresses. in this WWE costume. Well right. And the UFC by the way, in addition to I mean, unlike professional wrestling, it's absolutely real. I mean, people are really fighting.

It's a show, but they're not faking anything, right? So there's that. So it's not Hulk Hogan. Well, but it's not Hulk Hogan although their characters. But but it's real and it's legit. But it is a descendant of WWE, WWF, the McMahon empire of Showbiz Wrestling in which Donald. Trump years ago was a character himself literally got up on. Right? I remember he would get under the ropes and get up and like, Vince McMahon and everything.

Well, now, of course, his Secretary of Education is is. the separated wife of Vince McMahon. Sex trafficker and sexual assault accused Linda McMahon, who's in charge of basically dismantling Linda McMahon. Linda is dismantling the Department of Education. Yes, that was her. And again, task. The richness of the ironies. She's the secretary of education. This person who, you know, made professional wrestling.

as huge as it became in the 80s and 90s. It's remarkable. So it is, but it is a this cage match of people who, you know, can fight well, but it's it has basically its attraction. is that it has no rules or has very, very few rules, unlike boxing. or right or actual normal old fashioned Olympic sports. This sport was invented in the last 30 years for this purpose of show business.

So it's, you know, I mean, and you can do anything, right? You can kick, you can bite, you can you can't bite or you can't bite. So it has some room. It has some rules. But you can you can, you know, it's. but isn't the goal to get someone in a chokehold. So they, so they go to sleep. Well, you know more than I do if that's if that's the case. No I don't think they they don't. I think I don't know I don't think people become unconscious during the fights. But but it is it is all but that I think.

But but the symbolism of him using the ultimate fighting sport. to show himself as the ultimate fighter in theory. for the American people, but really for himself, indeed. And as his pursuing a stupid war more than stupid war. A war that is hurting America's place in the world. in all kinds of ways and making us look weak and incompetent. And having a cartoon figure, Secretary of War.

out there like some, you know, animated character. talking about how great war is and how wonderful our war fighters are. It's all of a piece. It's the same comic book. understanding of and presentation of the world and their. the way they think about how the world ought to work. So you have written, I mean, you mentioned Fantasyland,

which is a fantastic book explaining America's obsession. with story land and conspiracy theories. and religion. I mean, what did you see in Donald Trump when you first started. mocking him at spy magazine, which you were a co-founder. of with Graydon Carter? What was it in Trump? And I know we've talked about this before, but I can never get enough of it. And by the way, we have to come on to your lobster roll chic in a moment,

which people wrote about in the comments last time you were on. But but what was it specifically. about Donald Trump that you spotted 40 years ago? All of. his features, salient features today the the. braggart, the bully, the liar, all of it. The the the craving to the point of what looks like addiction to me.

Attention, all of those things. I mean, you know, later on and while we were doing spies, then the, you know, oh, let's execute these accused. defendants who were later exonerated, the Central Park five. Exactly. So it wasn't initially any political thing at all. It was just, God, what an asshole this guy is. And what? So that was it. And he was, you know, as we were starting spy in the late.

mid late 80s as New York was kind of coming back from bankruptcy. and all that he was and he was this extraordinary character. in this also moment where tabloid newspapers had suddenly become. a big deal in New York City, especially, as well as American culture. And he got them both to cover him relentlessly. And and it was it was he was putting on a show and,

you know, and, you know, we were, I don't know, at least jeering from the. cheap seats, you know, and, and doing journalism and trying to expose him for the liar, bully, braggart he is when he was still purely a joke, he was just a rich boy who had built a couple of buildings. and pretended he was king of the world and talked back then, starting in 1988, about being president, starting in our first issue of spy,

where he was saying I could negotiate the missile, you know, arms control treaty with Russia in an hour. I know everything I need to know about missiles. So he was the guy. He was the guy. That guy already, right? If you want. to know what's really worth your time when it comes to losing weight, skip the guesswork and get weight loss by hymns. Hymns offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved. GLP one medications that now includes the Wagon Pill.

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Just visit Hims. to get a personalized, affordable plan. That's I. And then just explain to me one more time. and then we'll come on to your lobster roll weekend. Where, what is it about America that. that produces a character like this.

and that people even knowingly we know he's a Braga, we know he's a liar. We know he's a bully. All that stuff still buy into the story of him. What is it about America that lead needs to live in those narratives? Well, there's various kinds of fictions. and narratives that all people, but. exceptionally Americans. I mean, we talk about American exceptionalism, and that is one of our extreme ones, is is. we can make our own truth and live our own stories and invent our own lives.

And that's why we come here from other countries. We'll start afresh and guilty as charged. Well, and create a new version of ourself, create a new country. So it was as it was working well, you know, had a good side and occasionally a bad side. The bad side was kept in check by, oh, the enlightenment founders, for instance, and their descendants ever since, until the last half century or so, when,

you know, the fetters came off and, and things kind of went off the rails. And so this it was, it was as though we had this. chronic condition which which had its good side. And America was fun, and America was more interesting than, say, Canada or, you know, it was it was, you know, and full of interesting. oddballs and various ethnicities and characters and all that. And so, you know, I think, for instance, and in terms of precedents,

President Andrew Jackson, great populist Democrats, moldy and I guess larger, and I think. who Trump has sometimes modeled himself on, he has a portrait of him in the Oval. Office. Well, well, he, you know, was a horrible. genocidal person as regards Indigenous Americans, for one thing. So I'm sure Trump, to the degree he knows about that, thinks that's great. But he was he but he was also this actual military hero, general everything.

Anyway. So he gets elected president and his first inauguration, he opens. the white House, you know, the fairly new white House to anybody who wants to come, you know, and and it's 20,000 people show up. right in a city that probably didn't have a population of 20,000. Right. And obviously pre social media say yes and pre high security and everything. Right. And they trashed the place basically they fill it up. They trash the place. There are too many people.

President Jackson himself get pushed up against the wall. His people I mean you know no Secret service. then somehow managed to get him out a window and he escapes. And then they lure the crowd out of the white House. And again, it's winter. It's March with with barrels. of whiskey and ice cream. So, I mean, talk about an American iconic event again. So, you know, we'll see what happens on on when what's it called.

UFC Freedom Fights 250 happens or the. Great American State Fair thereafter. Right. Well, so the Great American State Fair is supposed to be this huge concept. which several artists agreed to do, thinking it was going. to be like a national state fair, like the bicentennial was 50 years ago. Right? So Martina McBride, the Commodores, Florida, milli Vanilli, who knew they were still going of poison?

Oh, really? Okay. And now it turns out that all pulling out because, as you say, as you mentioned at the beginning, Trump is able to politicize anything. And they discovered it's actually basically going to be a Maga concert. Yeah. Well, and they immediately pulled out, which is I has to be, you know, a humiliation and embarrassment and causing lots of shouting. around the white House and panic because I believe this thing. was announced on Wednesday. They started pulling out on Thursday.

You know, I mean, so. Right. Yeah. One wonders what the conversations between Rick Grenell, who is part of it, or whomever was organizing this in the white House, and the the representatives and agents of these performers, like, as you're suggesting, I'm sure they were told. Oh, no, it's just it's the great it's the 250th. It's great. It'll just be a national celebration as opposed to, inevitably, because of what Trump and MAGA and, and, and.

and Donald Trump's obsessive posting on his site. indicate is that it is indeed a. Republican MAGA event and would be will be now. it's a little seems a little disingenuous that they had no clue. of this inevitability, but maybe they don't pay attention. A lot of people don't pay attention to the news, I don't know. Well, it's possible they don't pay attention. It's possible that they were told other people were taking part, and so they thought, well, if the Commodores are doing it, or if,

you know, and other by two like, oh, you know, McBride is a big star, you know, and she's millions, right? Millions. So if you're told Martina McBride is going to be headlining, probably like, oh, it's going to be like Live Aid or one of those big concerts. that sort of bigger. The sum of its parts is bigger than the artists. And the comeback when these people pulled out is, oh, well, look, she she performed it the white House when Obama was president.

Like, yeah, because he was a normal president, right. You know, not because he was a Democrat and she therefore she probably. I don't know, I mean, could or would have, might have performed. at a George Bush thing, too, you know, again, in the age before every move of everyone is, is, you know, you're on our side or the other side politically became. a besetting tragedy about America. Well, and Rick Grinnell, who was in Trump won the German and or the ambassador.

to Germany and then God. because in fact, everybody says Trump was like, he's gay. He can run the Kennedy Center. He ran the Kennedy Center until everybody pulled out of performing. at the Kennedy Center, apart from, I think, kid Rock, who will perform anywhere for MAGA. So they shut the Kennedy Center down because Trump was like, well, it needs to be for renovations, right? And of course, it's not just the Kennedy Center, it's the Donald J.

Trump Kennedy Center. So they've shut it for renovations, i.e. they can't get anybody to perform there anymore. Now, Rick Grinnell's concert is is disappearing. It's just it's like, what is it, sponge sugar that's just melting in front of him? Well, the thing is, you know, and of course, he answered. in his social media way immediately when Mrs. McBride pulled out. Oh, you have always been a woke lefty.

Not as far as I know. She's a country singer. I mean, yeah, you know, they all say, oh, like Dixie chicks, alluding to something from 25 years ago about people who objected to the Iraq war. You know, I mean, that's their answer is, oh, you perform for Obama and you're just a woke lefty. I mean, the idiocy and reductive. binary quality of every reaction like that is, oh, you're against this. Well, then this it's just it's pathetic.

It is entirely pathetic, you know, and gets them nothing. except for, you know, among the shrinking. cult hardcore who are as stupid as they about like, oh, it's this or it's this, you're with us or you're an idiot. and a sheep. So it's but a guy who ought to know better, who ought to have some sense of, how dare I say dignity.

or shame or whatever, like just, oh, my God, this is embarrassing. I'm just going to shut up. No, they never do that. They always spit back. They always spit back. So I tell you where they weren't spitting back around the cabinet table. at the cabinet meeting this week where we we were texting back and forth. The the New York Times sycophantic meter. Did you have a favorite among all of them? Who was the most sycophantic, who held on to their power?

And my favorite note was just the way that Scott Besson. had written resilience down there. And I think he wrote mind resilience. Yeah, yeah. I mean, those those motivational sort of Instagram. What? Well, they're motivational statements. It's so sweet that the Treasury secretary has to write out. that piece of paper when he's meeting his boss to know. Well, it reminded me of if indeed is that,

as the New York Times reporter. reported, that it was this sort of self-soothing, you can do this. Come on, Scottie. Or maybe I mean, more charitably, I guess he was just saying, here's. the themes in my future television appearances I need to yeah, this is the talking point, right. But whichever it's it's it's sad. Well, he said he'd also written Operation Economic Fury, which was quite a good phrase for him to say in the meeting. I think indeed.

And no, and I mean, again, somebody who not only ought to know better. I mean, he was a completely legitimate financial person, you know, kind of like, you know, the the wash of his, of his sector, of the financial industry, who, who by being such a sycophant and being in his presentation, such a. kind of a. weenie in the way he presents himself and in his, you know, well, his Uriah Heep, isn't he in David like, oh, Mr.

Trump, said Mr. Trump. Well they all that but he is the most Uriah Heep in the sixth. Well we could. in fact label each of them as, as the fictional character that they best. Oh, what a good idea. Yes. And also if you're watching at home, please. This is a perfect place to put in your comments of who are they most like. Yes, yes. Well, Rubio. And again they did this. I love data and I love infographics. And they did this wonderful. They analyzed 12 hours of cabinet meetings, which is only like one. cabinet meeting.

Several but and who spoke the most. And at each meeting. and about each thing with the little color coded charts, it was great. And who flattered the most. Yeah. And they color coded by sheer speaking or flattery. It was great. I loved it. Anyway. Marco Rubio, to my surprise, actually, was actually spoke. the most and was the most flattering. Yeah, the most obsequious. Now, they left Pam Bondi out because she was a pretty obsequious flattery. But like, they left her out because.

it didn't work. Yeah. And also she was a writer of motivational notes to herself. Do you remember during the hearings. we got some shots of the little notes that she was writing to herself? I'm surprised they still allowed cameras to, like, go down to. I don't think they realized it. They. Because otherwise they would put something over the paper. a bit like I'm doing here, although it's a woefully small list, but that's happened so many times in the last 30 years. I remember with the first George Bush like message, we care, remember?

I don't know. The idea that you have. to be reminded that you care when you're the president is also fantastic. But so Rubio was the most significant and best. and and Vance and Nick were, you know, the runners up. You know I thought Vance was the least sycophantic. No words. No, not the least sycophant. Less psychoanalytic than than. Yeah. And then it was interesting. Who was the least flattering and head of the CIA, Ratcliffe,

which sort of conformed with like, okay, he's one of the least embarrassing. of those people and seems to be more or less doing his job. But that's partly. because he's under the radar, so he's not thrusting himself forward. Right? True. But, you know, I mean, again, here's somebody as one thinks, like, how are these people thinking they're going to get out of this? And what kind of career are they going to have less, right. You see, he and people like him are still thinking it appears, or else they actually have some this much integrity instead of zero.

Like I'm thinking about, you know, this is only going to last another, you know, two and a half years. Like I got to figure out the rest of my life. And the less I'm out there saying you're the greatest president or leader. of any country in history, which literally some of them say, the better. You know, Duffy, the transportation secretary, who Sean, who's made himself. a reality television series while he's supposed to be running the department. That's what he was before he got this job. Right? But but you're supposed to give that up if you are running the Department.

of Transport. Well, but you work for a president who who every day was to put on a show. So I don't think that's a problem with the job. unless he gets too much attention. No, it's just a problem for the public. Well, yes. You mean the guy who has to run the aviation system of America? Yeah, I guess that is a problem. I think so, I think drive around for a few months. with your family being filmed for your reality show. Yeah. That's right. And then he said, I managed to get some work done in the back of the RV that he borrowed. Yes. Yeah.

So it is. And again, I mean, I can imagine people listening to this or watching this and say, oh, look, there's so many more important things to talk about. The world economy is being ruined. The, you know, as, as we mentioned, you know, America's place in the world was being diminished. There's a horrible war going on that we can't seem to get out of. That made no sense to. And now the joy that we've held up 20% of the world's fuel. Exactly. All that, all these consequential things they could say.

Why are you talking about this silly stuff? Well, it's summer is one reason, but but but you know, I mean, what's interesting, it's part of it is consequential. because it's why heretofore he has been so popular. because so many people like him and vote for him, especially not necessarily the hard core, because, hey, this guy is fun. This guy is entertaining, right? My belief is and I've seen, you know, focus group results to show that it's true.

is that lots of, say, the younger people who don't pay that much attention to news. And maybe we're even very aware of Trump first term. This guy is running in 2024. Hey this is this kind of this guy is interesting. He shakes it up. He's I like watching him. Unlike other politicians. That's been a huge part of his power and success is the entertainment. So talking about his attempts at, you know, entertainment at, you know, indulging his mania to build.

and fix the reflecting pool and overpay and a no bid contract for that. and all this, like, just all this, like, let me do this, let me do this stuff. that he can just do and order as opposed to, you know, negotiating with Congress. to pass legislation or negotiating with Iran to stop this madness. He can just order it done and, and and to see it. So it's consequential in that way because it's part of his governing. power has been. But here it is, along with.

trying to do things that, you know, some Republicans are objecting to, like pay 1.8 billion to people such as the January 6th rioters, are substantive. things causing problems, but failing at even. this inconsequential stuff like the Great American State Fair or, you know, is like, wow, it feeds. the correct view that I think is spreading among more.

and more and more people that, wow, he's kind of incompetent, isn't he? You know, he's not, you know, here we are trying to this authoritarian. who can't even make the trains run on time. You know, it's it's like, what is the benefit to the public. because the public are willing to forgive. all sorts of weird nurses if there is a benefit. But if there is no benefit, if they're paying higher prices. at the pumps, if their neighbors are being picked up by ice, correct,

then things feel destabilized. And I think that's what makes people anxious. Correct. And bread and circuses, as has been said. leaders for thousands of years, is fine. If you've got the bread, you know. Right. And but just the circus alone and giant ballrooms for rich people. and giant tax benefits for rich people and giant crypto scams for rich people. While I can't afford meat at the grocery store, that doesn't go down so well.

Well, and I do think the slush fund for himself, him suing the Treasury. himself or the DOJ or whoever it was and then deciding that. this is the settlement and it's 1.77 the settlement with himself, with himself, where he's now going to pay people. who've been, in theory, weaponized or who've had the Justice Department. weaponized against them either January 6th rioters,

as you just mentioned, that surely is going to set people on edge. I mean, I don't know how anybody who even knows a policeman is okay with that. No. Exactly. Well, I've wondered about that. for about January 6th, ever since it began being excused. Right. Well, when he pardoned everybody on his first day that to so and, you know, I mean the, the, his, his second level of sycophants, not the circle. in the cabinet, but but the Republicans in Congress.

are also certainly in the US Senate are beginning to like, just be pissed off. Like, what are we getting out of this? He just got rid of two of our good, solid, you know, senators, sitting senators Cassidy in Louisiana. and and corn in Texas. for no good reason, except he wants a more, you know, in one case, a corrupt person like him who is also. an absolute, unwavering sycophant.

Right. Well, the parallels with Ken Paxton and him are almost, well, they're surreal in terms of biblical style divorce. and been impeached, you know, corruption charges. I mean, he's the thoroughly unpleasant man. Even the Republican Party in Texas said he's unfit for office. They were taking out ads against impeached him. for his fellow Republicans in the legislature. So yeah, it's it's remarkable. And of course, because as he has been in so much.

in this year and a half in office, driven. by retribution and revenge against Cornyn for not being, you know, for being 98%. supported instead of 100% supported against the legislators in Indiana. All these people, I mean, he's wasting so much time and money. and attention in this attention. economy on defeating his not even political. enemies, just personal enemies, the people who don't.

want to be in the bunker with them all the time and follow who's every order. I mean, spending the time punishing those people, not for any policy reasons. As you know, left wing. Democrats primary, you know, moderate Democrats. That's a whole different thing. You know, maybe wrong or maybe right or but it at least has, you know, a basis in reality rather than just you offended me. I'm killing you, right?

You know, I am your father, but. And also now. But to the Democrat point. Eugene. Carol. Well, exactly. And Carol, of course, who. he sexually assaulted many years ago be true enough. that he should have to pay a fine for having defamed her by denying that. and then doubling down on it when he was found guilty, and then being fined another 80 million instead of just a few million. And so now he's got his Justice Department criminally investigating her.

and the people who may have funded her legal cases, which is, I mean, so wrong on so many levels and so. pathetic and awful. Yet. given the the storm of awfulness. that he brings about and his administration brings about like, I mean, a story that might have in the old days, like it would be a weeks long story, like discussing.

how bad this was and the the abuse of the Department of Justice. And what a waste. You know, it barely a one day story, right? You know, I mean, and that's, you know, that's where we are and, and. and also. in the case against Aegean that was going through the courts, they already deliberated this issue and the judge threw it out. So at this point, bringing it back, and their argument. is that she didn't declare funding that the case was being funded.

And she perjured herself by saying, which is just. I mean, I mean, we could go on and on about the degree to which he ran on. We must stop politicizing the Justice Department as was done against me. And of course, it was never true of the Justice Department. You could make arguments about some New York state court. state prosecutions, but it was never done. And now he's doing it as it's never been done before. It's, you know, again, one of the true, cliched things about Donald Trump.

is that, you know, every accusation is a confession. Well, every accusation is a confession. And this is an accurate. And here not even a confession. An accusation is here's what I'm going to do. This thing. I'm, I'm, you know, without basis accusing someone else of having done. so. It's I mean, it's there's. at this point there's nothing new in this in this administration.

It's just, you know, the shark has jumped. so many times and so high that just another shark. Well, yep. Hadn't done that before. Oh, cage matches in the white House lawn. Yeah, that's a new one. But it's it's just still it's like. And it is. The phrase jumping the shark came about as a matter of TV writing. You know, the happy days. This is what writers in a writers room do when they've run out of good ideas. They're going to have Fonzie ski and the shark jumps out of the water.

And that became the meme for that idea. Well, to the degree that the Trump administration and Trump's whole shtick. is more than any other president ever, including Ronald Reagan, is a show. that's that's the level they've reached, along with the guy who's, you know, days away from turning 80 and, you know, is obviously showing the signs. Not good ones of of being that. All right. One of the things that you tweeted out.

this week has been knocking around the internet, but I wanted to just revisit it because it's extraordinarily prescient. It comes from mad magazine and it's Donald Trump as The Wizard of Oz. When did this come out? January 1991. And of course, I was well into my adulthood. virgin middle age by then, and so I was unaware of this and mad. But it's extraordinary. I mean, I was we were in the middle of doing spy and.

and having our own coverage of showing. Trump's bullying and duplicity and. corruption and. deeply cynical kind of criminal view of the world. Well, here he is. The premise is it's one of these standard, you know, eight panel cartoons about about Donald Trump. He is advising he is the wizard, as in The Wizard of Oz, advising the Tin Man and the Scarecrow and the lion and Dorothy.

What to do as, of course, famously in the end of The Wizard of Oz, the Wizard does. And instead of saying, oh, just believe your courage or believe. you're smarter, all the things happens in the movie, he says, don't be a sucker. You know you don't need a job, Scarecrow. Jobs are for suckers or or tin man. You should tin what? You're plastic. You got to be replaced in plastic. And it goes on and on. Just encouraging him to lie, cheat, steal and be a cynic.

It's it's with very with specifics about, you know, it's just a ring. So true. I had no idea. I mean, like, hats off. Whoever wrote this 35 years later, I don't know if you're still alive. Whoever did this mad man cartoon, but you saw the future. You saw the future. And I want to refer people to your. You tweeted it, right? So you exit it out. What is your ex account called? It is called KB Anderson, KB Anderson.

It's worth going. and having a look at the whole thing. because blue Sky, if you prefer blue sky and I. can't remember what my handle is on that, but there I am. Okay. I once had a blue sky. It's all to, you know, threads, blue sky, all of it. And then you just I just another subset of it. you got to get there to I am on subsequent I'm saying oh on the notes part. they're like, oh you should post this on Substack notes. Well I should I am definitely sure I should maybe I did. Yeah I.

Anyway, whatever you get your socials. You should look for this because it's so prescient. It's alarming. But let me read a bit. I mean, he tells the story. Scarecrow jobs are for losers. Scarecrow get into junk bonds or any real estate schemes, or get control of a union's pension fund. Better still, become a televangelist. There's a world out there just waiting to be taken. Oh, there's a world out there just waiting. And then at the end, even better in a thing that, you know, we wouldn't have done in Spy then.

Not because it would be too edgy, because I just wasn't that aware of it. He sits, you know, Dorothy down on his knee and basically. is grooming her like, hey, when you're old enough, you know, you know, we can. That was just when his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. was the beginning, of course. Yeah, like no shades of Epstein. I mean, how about this? Stick around and I'll put you up in a penthouse. with a limo and ten grand a week in spending money. In a couple of years after you fill out.

You could be my steady bimbo. What an invitation. I mean, you know, I mean, no, it is remarkable. Is he is unfair. I want Melania to read this because I wonder if she did read it. She sent her this in the post. And by the way, reads a mail. But speaking of Melania, you know, of course he Donald Trump, I believe, this morning said in a true. social post about, oh, doctor, Jill Biden. We haven't even talked about that. Yes. Well, he said like because in her new book.

she talks about how interestingly and obviously, frankly and when when Joe Biden was fumbling. and not answering and doing his disastrous debate. in June of 2024 with Donald Trump, she thought she she says now in this book, I thought he might be having a stroke, as one would think. And of course, what does Donald Trump say? Not like I'm glad to see some frankness about whatever she says.

Well, why didn't you go run on stage and see about him, as any loving wife would? And that's the thing I would like to have Melania see and say, really, what would I have done in that case, when on stage, what would Melania have done? You know, I mean, because we all remember Wendy Deng when, when in the case. in Parliament, when someone tried to throw a cream pie at Rupert Murdoch, Wendy Deng, his then wife, and he's had it all since then.

Yeah, she leapt across the table to protect him. And I think the person who had thrown the pie. tiger wife, tiger wife, tiger wife, he's had a few more since then. No, I mean, the thing about the idea of Melania Trump doing that, who can barely touch him or, you know, doesn't want to spend time with him, obviously would like go into some mode. that we have never witnessed, even a hint of kind of that kind of,

I don't know, normal spousal, you know, defense. I mean, it's just it's again, every accusation is a confession. Every accusation is a confession. So Kurt Andersen, the last time you were on we. you were in your Connecticut home. Lovely home, if I may say, because I have been there. and you were wearing a gingham shirt, which a lot of people commented on. and said they approved of your this was someone's term.

and it was a brilliant, a lobster roll chic. Yeah, I'd never heard that. And I'm fine. I'll take it. Yeah. I don't love lobster rolls, but great. How can you not love a lobster? I know, I know, I think they'll be selling them on the South Lawn. The good ones are fine. But anyway. Yes, that was nice and, well, you know, you know, we, you know, we don't talk. Always wear ties and jackets. Look, you have you have some Montana cowgirl. Well, this is my this is my. Yeah.

This is my shirt from Sara. Summer. Last summer. It's summer. And, you know, you know, I don't know this. This is less lobster roll and more like barbecue, I guess. But. again, very UFC. Well, the bounty of barbecue truly. I mean, I grew up in Nebraska. I like going a rodeo. I like going to, you know, drag races and. giant car fights. And I love all that stuff, you know. But and, you know, I loved it when, when everything didn't,

wasn't a political signifier, you know, and when we weren't in a forever war. Well, this isn't a forever. Well, I mean, it depends how it could be a forever war. Well, it is. I mean, news is not yet open. No, but this guy, I don't think. is ever going to send in, you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of troops to somehow not back out. I mean, that's an interesting thing about more seriously, about this war. is his his basic disinclination to,

you know, actually commit to like, no, we really have to fight this war. because it's important, because he doesn't think it's important. He knows it's not. He just let's bomb some stuff. Let's blow up some things. That's all it's about, and let's bring them to heal. As I was, I'm. able to do with all of my cabinet members and the entire Republican Party. Let's bring them to heal, and we'll starting to kill them, and we will kill them. And by the way, Oman Ally will blow you up to. He said the other day. Yeah.

You know, so it's all talk in this case. Talk that also kills a few thousand people and destroys, you know, threatens to. and teeters the global economy and everything else but his his. so far. I mean the taco part of Donald Trump. Trump always chickens out in terms of actually doing more. than just wasting munitions and, and and wrecking the economy. and the global political order besides those he.

he the idea of getting into a forever war. of, you know, any of the kinds we've been in in his, you know, lifetime effectively I mean, since World War two, Vietnam or. Iraq or Afghanistan. He just he doesn't want he understands in his basic way, not as a matter of virtue or. isolationism.

God knows he's not an isolationist. We've discovered. But just I don't want to be the guy who gets in a terrible war. because I remember being, you know, 20 years old. when Lyndon Johnson and then Richard Nixon were fighting Vietnam. And that's not what you do, not what you do. Again, I'm not implying any moral feeling. I'm implying, like, that's the quagmire that destroys presidencies. Well, and he understands the value of pictures. and television, and he doesn't want the. he doesn't want the images of body bags coming back of American soldiers. Right.

And he understands that the power of those pictures. of the bombs that they put out with videos at the beginning, sort of intercut. with gaming images, can be very powerful. And then people move on. They don't want to see that. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, the other thing. And again, it's not as important as as. the Iranian regime's resilience. And to to not be destroyed by. this war is their skill,

really remarkable skill in the first month or so. of those of those the Lego, probably I mean, the skill. both of, you know, visually and speed, the speed of each of them, responding. to real life events and the sophistication. of the take, you know, not too much. We will crush you and kill you. Praise to Allah.

I mean, it it was just it was absolutely brilliant. And you know, so much, I hate to. say, but so much better than I can imagine the United States doing whatever. the United States equivalent of good propaganda to support. even a just war like, say, Ukraine against Russia. It just wouldn't be as good. It's like, wow, somebody, somebody in that, you know, corrupt. military dictatorship, theocratic regime,

you know, is giving the kids some, some leeway. to do great propaganda. Yeah. Well, who knows what's going to happen. Who knows? I mean, also, frankly, a genius move to figure out they can close the Strait of Hormuz. There's 1500 tankers sitting in the Gulf. which was able to get out, which presumably. I mean, that's the thing. Again, I want the the book on this to know. Like, what did they know?

I mean, of course, I guess they knew that I hadn't ever thought enough. about how a scenario like this could play out to say, well, of course they have this power that is not nuclear. But like next best thing. And unlike nuclear usable. Right. It's and it's more effective in a way because it's the slow. choking of energy to countries that rely on it. Correct. And you know, there had been a prelude with, you know, like out of town rehearsal with the Houthis.

firing drones and things and saying, look, this can be done. Like it wasn't out of the blue, you know, that. it had been demonstrated, you know, essentially that this could happen. Well, and all the experts in Iran before they were fired. would red team on what happens if Iran closes the Strait of Hormuz? I mean, it's been known by Foreign affairs and intelligence analysts. that this is a potential choke point for for global affairs.

And obviously that was said to him surely sometime before this war started. And he just, like, ignored it as he didn't hear it as he does some things. And, you know, for whatever set of reasons, you know, Bibi, who was so persuasive. in presenting in the Situation Room how this is going to be great and. and we're going to, you know, the people will rise and all those untruth.

that didn't happen and, and this, this three week war of liberation. and suddenly a democratic Iran didn't happen. I mean, it's it's it's it's astounding in a way, but it's just an extreme version of what he is, which is he doesn't listen experts. He knows what he feels. He knows what he wants to see. He wants to see him all blown up and and surrender, you know, immediately. And so he did it. And, and he had, you know, a more. successful and sophisticated and intelligent.

autocrat in okay, is not yet an autocrat, I guess. But tell him. No, no. It's good, Donald, it's good. Do it, do it. You know, there we are. And he fell into the trap that the previous five presidents. refused to fall into. Right. Well. And. Yes, indeed. And had not and refused. to entirely sign off on. that. For instance, the two state solution being a wink, wink, nod nod. Yeah, this is still what we hope to do.

And saying no, no. You know the far right of Israel should get what it wants, I agree. Go for it. You know, short of so far, you know, annexing the West Bank. just because the Gulf states is Gulf state friends would find that problematic. And of course, his vice president, JD Vance, very cleverly and quickly signaled. that he was the one person in the room. that didn't like this idea, and now he seems to be being punished. He'd been sent off to Pakistan to organize the peace deals.

He's been put in charge of fraud. I mean, I think Trump is doing everything he can. We had Jen Welch on the podcast on Friday and she was making the point. She said he's just wrapped fucking JD Vance into oblivion at this point. He's just loading him up. Things to do. Because JD actually has signaled his distance with the president here, which is, you know, and again, that's all about playing for 2028. because what do you have to do in 2028.

to be a successful Republican candidate in this stage when apart from Trump, there are tremendous fissures, to my mind, deeper fissures. than in the Democratic Party between the, you know, the pro-Israel. and anti-Israel isolationists and not all of it. traditional Republicans economically and and, you know, people who sound like, you know, Bernie Sanders, Tucker Carlson. So there's a lot of fissures there. And how if you're JD Vance or Marco Rubio, but JD Vance, how do you play that?

How how much can you afford to distance yourself. from Donald Trump and, and these nonsensical, incompetent, stupid. national security policies? Now? I mean, there's still two years left. You steal your boss, right? And but once, once he's once. once he leaves office, depending on how that goes. You know, it's a very, very tricky thing for the Marco Rubio's.

And and JD Vance is the world to be figuring out. And you know, it's again just on the pure. I guess it's chess chess game. level of politics. Really remarkable to see. And given that again I mean, I guess he has some beliefs. and I suppose Marco has or had some beliefs. Donald Trump doesn't and, and, and much of those surrounding him don't.

So it becomes more of a pure game. It's not like, oh, what can I get for the policies. I really want for those people? It's just like, how can we be the center of action and and be as powerful as possible? Well, and we know that the one thing he's going to do. is try and undermine them because he doesn't want them to succeed him. He wants precise, scorched earth. in terms of the people apart from him, a child of his and I. When people used to talk about Don Jr being a child of his, that he would like to succeed him. But you don't go to his wedding because he's got a golf game.

And to think about Iran, obviously, you know, I don't know at this point. that Donald Trump Jr had a real chance to be a nominee for president. But I can imagine I could have imagined him running, I mean, if his father. urged him to. But he seemed to be signaling that, you know, he doesn't want anyone to follow him. I mean, it is one of the you know, it's. not it's not an exceptional way. to be somebody, you know, within sight of the end.

Right? I operate a deluge, and I don't give a fuck what happens. after I go to the Republican Party or even kind of sort of, you know, let's say Don Jr, let alone JD Vance or Marco Rubio. Okay. Well, we have an early copy of your new book, The Breakup Curtains, and it's not out until September, so we're not going to talk about it. But it's very exciting to have it and it's so big.

I'm glad because it's going to take me several months to read it. Yeah, well, I'm glad you go out in the summer. It's a summer read. And by the way, yes, it's not out until August 18th, but August 18th. Okay, August 18th and preorder anytime. Preorder. The Breakup by Kurt Anderson. Kurt, thank you very much for coming into the studio. It's always I love my job so much because I just get to talk about the thing. I love the most, America, with the people who have such original, interesting. takes on it. And you saw 40 years, 40 years ago.

the crazy that Donald Trump brought to the world. And and here he is. Well, here he is. And it's Donald Trump's world and we're just living in it. True. And it is. It's always a pleasure. I can't wait to. read The Breakup Kurt's books, because Evil Genius. is one of his books, and Fantasy Land, another of his books, really get. at the crazy elements of America.

I loved when he said America's just more fun than Canada, although Canada's suddenly looking much more attractive. than than it has done on the occasional visit. I've had that anyway. I know we have a lot of Canadians watching, so I'm very curious to know. what you think. Is America more fun, or is it just more crazy than Canada? And actually, Canada is going to have the last laugh if you have been. Thank you for joining. Don't forget to subscribe! Big shout out to our production team Ryan Murray,

John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.