I Know Why Trump’s ‘Mad King’ Act Is Spiraling | The Daily Beast Podcast

I created a Venn diagram ten years ago, trying to explain Donald Trump. as simply as possible as three circles. Lying. Stupidity and mental illness. And then in the center is Donald Trump. And it's a hold up. People have been saying, I mean all kinds of people. and with diagnostic precision what they think of Trump's mental disorders. But this is, you know, we always say, oh, it's beyond it. Where's the bottom end?

But this week it is it is a it is, you know, the Mad King caricature seems truer than ever. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. Oh my goodness. Trump is mad kicking it. RFK Jr is lying to Congress and apparently, according to rumors online, JD Vance is contemplating resigning. Who better to pull all this apart like Sunday's.

roast chicken than Kurt Anderson, the author. and of course, the one time customer of RFK junior. from whom he bought cocaine when they were both at Harvard together. Okay, no time to waste. Just before we get into it, can I remind you, please press the subscription button. We bring you independent conversations. because we are independent media, and we really appreciate your support. And we're trying to get to 700,000 subscribers in the next few weeks.

So let's get into it now with the author and thinker. And sort of brilliant observer, Kurt Anderson. Kurt Anderson, I've been so looking forward to talking to you. because you've been monitoring Donald Trump for the last 40 years. Is this the week that he has finally gone completely bonkers?

Well, you know, I have. Yes, I have been a student of Donald. Trump's for, 40 years. And, and then I did write a book, you know, a decade ago I was writing it and came out. the first year of his first administration called Fantasyland, which was. in one sense a history of American religion. and American conspiracy theories and crazy theories and iffy grip. on the unreality and all those things that Trump. then became the poster boy master of fantasyland.

Suddenly for that. So, yeah. And this week, with the particular. religious quality of madness that we're seeing is quite something. And, and, you know, and again, for ten years I have. I created a Venn diagram ten years ago trying to explain. Donald Trump as simply as possible as three circles, lying, stupidity and mental illness. And then in the center is Donald Trump.

And it will hold up. and and and last time I was with you, we talked about his stupidity. and how that is an important of those, the tripartite Venn diagram. But, you know, mental illness, is, is there too. And, and and I do think I mean, people have been saying, I mean, all kinds of people and, and with diagnostic precision. what they think of Trump's mental disorders. But, this, this, this is, you know, we always say, oh, it's beyond it.

Where's the bottom? And but this week it is, it is a, it is, you know, the Mad King caricature seems truer than ever. Yeah. And I wondered with, I mean, actually, as we're speaking, I can hear the most heavenly sounding birdsong in the background. I'm assuming you are somewhat in the, in rural America. I am in rural America. And that's not an effect. That's actual. Those are actual birds. Yes, I hear them here in rural northwestern Connecticut.

Well, it sounds my point is that it sounds somewhat celestial. And of course, Trump this week posted himself as Jesus Christ. What were your thoughts when you when you saw that? Well, my first thought was, no, it's not Jesus. He's a doctor now. Of course he has his lie. His lie, which was at odds with his vice president's lie. Was that that? No, no, I thought it was a picture of a doctor.

In in in the clouds. Where the where the glowing orb. And, you know, robe of antiquity, you know, like doctors. So, yeah, that was remarkable. And and, you know, again, it's his ignorance. and the ignorance of a God who has. of who's, you know, and the most important part of his political base. is a Ben Jellicoe Protestant Christians. And and yet he is more ignorant of Christianity.

The Bible, all of it than I, I am, and I'm pretty ignorant, you know. It's remarkable. And so he didn't know. Oh, it's just. Yeah, it's it's me as God is me as Jesus. Whatever. And posted that and and and it started getting him in real trouble, you know, I mean with the general cracking up. in various ways over Iran and war and all these other things. that are core Epstein that are core to the MAGA.

devotion have been, you know, this is a new one. Like, wait, okay. He didn't know he was a dummy about religion. And, you know, call it Corinthians, you know, miss misnamed books of the Bible and all the rest. But they forgave him. This seems less forgivable. together, of course, with, thinking that he can slag Pope. Leo as a new foil for his, anger and and by to put it in this.

Well, I was going to ask you the pope. Pope Leo suddenly seems to have, I don't want to say risen to Trump's bait, but he seems. up for the fight with Trump, which is not actually something we've seen. So directly from the Vatican before. And he's certainly gone after warmongers, and he's on his Africa trip this week. What do you make of him as a new opponent for for the.

I mean, let's face it, the Democrats are not doing a brilliant job. It seems like it's been left to the Pope to turn out to be. an unexpected opposition. Well, the Democrats, Republicans, they're all politicians. And Americans hate. all politicians categorically, even if they like individual ones. Right. So but the fact that he's an American and a guy from Chicago, you know, is, and it puts him in a whole different category, you know,

rather than just some foreign guy, some Italian guy. Although they do, they all look so similar. Don't I think they look very similar, maybe because of the way the same outfit. That's that's not accidental. Joanna. I always that is. that part of it that they're all supposed to look the same, I didn't realize. Well, have you ever seen a picture of, you know, a conclave? Yeah, they all kind of. They're all, you know, old guys, some of them black old guys now, but, you know. Yeah. And the thing is, though, about Leo is in his. He doesn't really rise to the bait.

He still stays, you know, keeps a smile. And, you know, it's it's that, like southern lady. Oh, bless his heart. Bless you. Bless your heart when they're saying you're an idiot. And he said about this when he was some reporter. ask him as he was on his way to Africa, about Trump's true social madness, about the Pope Leo being weak on crime, which is pretty hilarious. Is it as if he's running for office?

He simply said it's ironic. The name of the site itself meaning true social. It's ironic. Say no more. I mean, so it's just like he he just it he doesn't come out, fall out and blasting some Trump inner response to Trump way. He says he says it in his pastoral wise way which is kind of beautiful. I think. Yeah. And, and and he seems to have hit a nerve with Catholics and non-Catholics alike. I can't tell you how many people I've heard this week saying, oh,

I'm converting to the Catholic Church because me, you and I both. Yeah. And and the thing is, Leo, unlike his predecessor, Francis has been embraced and liked by the conservative American Catholics. for not being so woke and being a woke, which I believe Trump called Francis. If not, Leo yet. But wait, it's going to happen. And you're hearing it here. Trump is going to, at some point call Jesus to woke.

He just is, because he was, by their standards, you know, to to die, to woke all those. But anyway, it's coming. But, you know, I think the Pope has handled it well. I mean, he hasn't he has it. You know, it's still he doesn't mention Trump, nor. nor did he mention Hegseth when he was saying this guy, you know, or the war mongering shouldn't be a thing. Well, and and Hegseth also,

quoting from a prayer that was actually, largely or partially fictional from Pulp Fiction, there was one line from this short. verse of Ezekiel 2517, I think, in, in the Tarantino's and his co-writer script. And then and, Hegseth quoted the whole thing. He had gotten it from one of the fliers and one of the aviators.

who were in the search and rescue mission for the downed American pilots in Iran. Okay, but he didn't say that. He just said it was from Ezekiel. And it was in his monthly Pentagon prayer. Christian prayer service. So the people who say, as they have to me online, oh, you you're this is not fair. He he didn't think he was quoting Ezekiel. He thought he said it as though it was a prayer. They showed his audience. acting as though they're being serious and Solomon prayerful. Yes he did.

I mean, and it's hilarious that this guy who is the most. cartoonish G.I. Joe tough guy and always quoting. biblical lines, of which there are plenty if you take them out of context. in the Old Testament, of violence against people. He was using that in this, in this, in this, superhero military character way that he is Pete Hegseth. He's a, he's a Joe is a different version of the of the,

you know, cast of cartoon characters that Trump and has built around it. But he there you go. It was it was amazing. And then and then the the follow up to me was he was, at a press conference, in the Pentagon later after that, he was, asked about the from days. before about the Trump, Jesus, eye image, and, the the fact that the Iranians, the Iranian government had shared.

an another eye video, of Jesus flying into that picture. and basically whacking Donald Trump and casting him into hell. And the reporter asked him about that. And, and and Pete Hegseth answer was, that's detached from reality. Right. I mean, yeah, it's just so, so. hex Seth is certainly one of Trump's top goons. The other and I know he's a great favorite of yours.

because you once famously now bought cocaine off him in, when you were both at Harvard together is, of course, RFK Jr, who is doing the rounds of select committees this week. And, well, it was really something else. And we have some we have some clips that we want to play. for you, to get you to comment on. But he seems to be I mean, it's possible. that Trump has realized now that he could be a bit of a liability.

for for Trump and for certainly going into the midterms. Trump has come in over the top of him and actually hired a real doctor. to run the CDC. Erica Schwartz, who went to a liberal college. She got her degree from Brown University. She actually knows what she's talking about. She was deputy, surgeon general. So and shockingly, she's a black woman. Shockingly, she's a black woman. So it feels as if Trump.

is doing his best to stiff, RFK junior, the talk of vaccines is less, but the talk of vaccines. nevertheless came up at the first hearing he was at on Thursday morning, where, when asked. well, when it was pointed out that, measles had actually been. eradicated from the US in 2000, he was then pointed to the fact that, according to the numbers.

which are now going up, because he's sown such doubt around the measles. vaccine, and in particular MMR vaccine, saying it's causing autism. This year we're on track to have 6000 cases. of measles, in a country that had eradicated it. And his excuse was, well, if you look at other countries, look at Mexico, we're doing better than Mexico, which is, of course, not what you should be comparing it. to should be comparing it to the fact that two years ago in the US, we didn't have any cases, of, of measles.

So what what do you make of him, a year into his job as health secretary? Well, Trump, we can't let him off the leash. and let him do what he wanted as he said he would when when he, when he. was endorsed by Bobby, in during the 24 election. And then when he got in because he didn't care about any of this. However, I have been surprised. from the get go, almost most of all, of all the Trump policies about his.

letting Robert F Kennedy Jr do what he wants with Health and Human Services. It's not just vaccines, it's it's this gigantic the public health. enterprise at CDC and FDA. and all the rest of of the United States. so that he can do that because son is not. it's a it's a it's a it's it's. this group is part of the coalition that Bobby Kennedy helped.

get him in 2024, as well as let's not underestimate. the thrill to Donald Trump of being a Kennedy. He's a Kennedy. He's a Kennedy. That's why he he chose him. But he did. He does and did have this. You know, anti-vaccine, anti-science, part of the coalition that was important. He doesn't need that now. And I believe it's because most. people that Donald Trump knows and talks to, at Mar-A-Lago or wherever think this is nuts.

And things like the, the undermining of scientific research, but from the National Institute of Health and all of that is crazy. And stop this. So I think he's finally gotten around to saying, yeah, this he. I have had I have gotten what I'm going to get out of Bobby Kennedy probably. So I don't need these freaks anymore. Like, yeah, we'll put in real people, running the health services. Like, you know, you don't want to give him credit, but it's again, it's and it's not really credit.

Exactly. It's what I've said from the beginning of his, his time in office. Trump's, which is that it's it's, you know, it's a monk housing by proxy. syndrome where he, it's like a nurse who creates. sickness and death and then cures it to prove that. Well, that's what he does. He creates these problems and then look, there's a there's a peace settlement in, in in Lebanon. Oh, look, we've got we've got, you know, new, head of the CDC who believes in vaccines, all that stuff.

He created problems. And, and if people are unhappy or terrorists to some degree, he solves them. And that's what he's kind of done, I think, although quietly. Because why make a ruckus if he doesn't have to? With Bobby Kennedy and the Health and Human Services thing. and I and that's and, you know, all these people, including Bobby Kennedy, I think are looking for ways out. And he's got a way out because he's got independent celebrity. Even though this is, you know, like, as with Kristi Noem and Pete Hegseth.

and the rest of them, this is the only time and the only. presidential administration in which he could get a cabinet position, period. End of story. But he can carry on it. That's why he's started a podcast, for instance, and why he's he's looking to, you know, 20, 29 or sooner. to figure out his, his, the next phase of his career. Okay. So we have a clip from the trailer for his podcast, let let's just hear it.

For decades now, Americans have been told that we should trust the system, but our children are sick, are chronic diseases exploding, and the answers that we've been given are working. Many of us have come to the conclusion that government actually lies to us. I'm Robert F Kennedy Jr, your HHS secretary. This podcast is about telling the truth, especially when it's uncomfortable. Well, first of all, he is the government. He is the government that's telling us untruths.

Did that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, the thing about the government, you know, the government doesn't tell the truth all the time. I mean, it's been a part of the Republican pitch since 1980. And Ronald Reagan, right? It's like he's running against the government. He became president. He's still kind of running against the government. And the worse than the scariest thing that. has ever happened is I'm here from the government and I'm here to help you. This anti-government, posture of Republicans,

when they're controlling the government is, you know, is. is the great catch 21 of the great catch 22 of Republican governance. And here we go. You know, I mean, yeah, I exactly I mean, a president. who is told whatever it now is, if they're still keeping count 64,000 lies. and for and and, in his time in office. and and and Bobby Kennedy who's whose hold second career after being a.

decent environmental. lawyer in the 20th century and and, you know, and my cocaine dealer, he, you know, he, he hitches wagon to this brand new thing, which is anti-vaccine, missing misinformation and falsehoods. Thanks to, you know, the internet, which came along just as just as he decided to make this switch to,

this different, whole, different political coalition. that that he he has to know must be. I mean, I would think unless he's depending on how mentally disordered. he is, that his his, well, you know, his family or him, and his is cousins and nephews and everything. And, you know, his father and his uncle. and his both of his uncles would surely feel like this. This is this is the worst of our variously bad Kennedy, offspring.

Yeah. There's a new book out by him. I interviewed the author, Isabel, Vincent earlier this week, actually, which goes into his absolute self. loathing and guilt about him not being able. to live up to the Kennedy family name. And she gets hold of, what she's. given by a friend of his late wife, Mary Kennedy. Several of Bobby Junior's diaries. And so she's able to weave in his self reflections throughout the book.

and juxtapose them with what's going on contemporaneously, which gives an insight. into the fact that he's an absolutely tortured, completely tragic figure. I highly recommend it, because I know that well, as you say, he was your cocaine dealer, although you bought coke off him. once at Harvard, and I blame L1 Noriega and he was it. So I I'm proud of that. I only bought it once and and it was a celebrity. And it was, and in fact, you rifled through his, contacts book.

when he went to get his stash for you, and and you found the Pope's number. I wonder if it's still working. I wonder if it's a direct line to the Vatican or if it was just seen. That's been updated for for the subsequent ones. I don't know. That's a good question. And by the way, I just want to remind you that was a. that was a Daily Beast exclusive. You got about that rifling through the day. Well, it was a fantastic story. It was my favorite story that you've ever told me. I think, of you buying Coke from him when you were both students.

Anyway, I won't make you retell it. But one of the things that was so striking about your analysis of him, again, you having observed him over the years and sort of your circles. having overlapped, is that he's reckless, he's dangerous, that he's a liar. And we saw him lying full on, at the hearing yesterday. And we're going to play you a bit of that. Congressman. Woman. Terry Sewell, says to him, why did you suggest that. that black children should be taken and re parenthood.

and he says, goodness, I don't even know what that means. That doesn't make sense. I never said that. She says, yes, you did. He says, well, find me the tape. So we're just going to we're just going to play. You the clips, to to show you that. In a 2024 podcast interview, you suggested. that black children on ADHD. medication should be reprinted. You said every black kid is now. just standardly put on Adderall, SSRI, benzos,

which are known to induce violence, and that those children. are going to have to go somewhere to get reprinted. There is a lot to unpack in that comment. I know that you've already answered several of the questions. I was going to ask, and so I'm just going to rephrase them. Mr. Secretary, you've already admitted that you are not board certified. physician, and you've already admitted that you did not go, to medical school.

Have you ever repented or parent? Did I should say a black child? I don't even know what that phrase means. And I doubt yes or no answer. I doubt that I that friend oh is not going to answer something that I didn't say. You absolutely said it. I'd like to hear the recording. Well, we have the recording for those who caught that exchange yesterday. And for those who didn't, we have the recording here. It is psychiatric drugs, which every black kid is now just.

And put on Adderall. SSRI, benzos, which are known to induce violence. And, and those kids are going to have. a chance to go somewhere and reparative. to live in a community where there will be no cellphones, no screens. You'll actually happen to be all sorts. Well, and that was a year after the other famous thing. that he denied saying, as he has denied saying again and again.

and again in various ways, that it. No, I've never said vaccines are terrible. I never said this to esteemed pediatrician should be put in prison. All these things that are there, I mean, in this he is like Donald Trump. just denying things for which there are a million receipts. But but yes, no doubt he. Well, there you go. There he is saying that and denying and you know, you probably pass a lie detector test. He probably forgets it. because he says a million things that somebody in his position already. always has. And, you know, I don't know how strong his mental capacity is at this point.

But I was saying a year before that, I think in 2023, he was he was busted. for having set at a big at a dinner of some kind, a fundraiser, I believe. That oh, it was after Covid, but not long after 2023, saying that Covid had been engineered to spare Asians and Ashkenazi Jews. So his habit of saying this horrible lot is,

you know, to stoke racial. hatred, is, you know, part of his M.O., part of his, well, I wonder how long he'll last. So will you be listening to his podcast, Kurt? I, I will listen, I, you know, probably once or twice. I mean, I, I'm, I sometimes hate watch so deeply that I, or I hate listen, I guess I don't really hate listening yet to a podcast, but but I have I want to have a sense of what it is.

But I think I think, as with many pieces of media these days, I will rely on others who spend their time finding the. the juicy bits and reading and listening to the clips. But yeah, I mean, there he is. And again, it's it's, it's interesting, isn't it, that, he'll be out there with the podcast. As you know, the vice president's wife has one. And I guess, you know, you know, it's it's it's a thing you do now. if, if you're in this administration, which is,

you know, a subset of show business, I'm pretty confident that nobody in the administration has actually listened. to each Vance's podcast, because it's actually rather subversive. It's all sorts of children's tales, where the child is basically fighting. the corporate man, including she starts with Peter Rabbit. and her her, conversation is all about how important public libraries are. And do you go to the library and aren't libraries wonderful?

So you don't play wolf ring lunatic to me. Radical left wing lunatic. So you mentioned earlier that the public. really doesn't like politicians, which is part of the reason. that the initially certainly they liked Donald Trump. Two congressmen got bounce. this week, Eric Swalwell and Tony Gonzalez. One Democrat, one Republican. I have to say, I had tea with Eric Swalwell.

about a month ago, and I wouldn't have anticipated this. He seemed surprisingly straightforward and normal. I mean, it just goes to show that you can't tell anything from a from. a sort of an hour's meeting with someone when they're on best behavior. But what did you think of this development? Well, good that. I mean, they they didn't they bounce themselves. So that's good. That wasn't required, to go through a whole censure process and pressure.

Pressure, pressure. No, I mean, it's it's, I think. the fact that shame. or whatever, the combination of. whatever the correct word in this day and age is for what, was being the pressure that was being laid. on felt by Swalwell and I guess perhaps Gonzalez as well, that there are still, you know, lines and standards. And even if, you know, there are all kinds of more egregious lines.

being crossed by other members of Congress every day. about, you know, condoning horrible Trump. policies or being corrupt. You know, in themselves in, in, in, in campaign financing and everything else. But, you know, I, I think it's good. I personally had never been a big Swalwell fan, but. I don't I never spent a lovely hour with him, as you had. So, no, but seriously, I was not a fan.

And I felt as he was, an uninteresting, you know, opportunist. And and I was not happy, for instance. And the stuff he like, Chris Kirsten Gillibrand said right away, unfairly and stupidly about, Mamdani when he was running for mayor, you know, and he's, I'm. so I obviously that seat. will be, easily filled by another Democrat.

And if we're getting into the weeds of the political ramifications, the fact that, he was probably going to be the Democratic, candidate of the two, candidates for governor in California, he will no longer he is no longer going to be that so. that that's, you know, getting it, getting it clear just for, you know, forget him, forget whatever it means about the moral compasses that still exist. in the house of Representatives and in the political media generally.

Good. He's gone. Is my feeling about him and and Gonzalez. as well, you know, I mean, good. And, so when they can still do that, as they did. with Santos, you know, a couple of years ago. I mean, it's a. it's a tiny morsel of old fashioned normalcy. Yeah. Although Eric Swalwell is, is denying it and Tony Gonzalez can't deny it. because the woman that he pressurized into having a relationship.

then set herself on fire and, and died by suicide. So that would be hard to deny, though one can't help feeling. he probably would have denied it if he could. Well, oh, you know, we can we can make a bet right here. that in a year or months or whenever, whatever time. But, I want to get as many women, claiming,

accusing a person of such a thing. And it's no longer 2017 where you could say, well, it's going too far. Everybody's, I don't know. My irritation is, is certainly to, accept the preponderance of accusations, but yes, we'll see. He's been convicted of nothing. But now since he's he's he is is, foregone the possibility. of having to defend himself in, in in, in a congressional, investigation and will almost certainly,

I would think, not be charged with any crimes for these, assaults or, but whatever they were, he may face civil suits, but we'll see. So he can, you know, he's in a position where he can. probably get away with denying it forever, you know? I mean, and which is the beauty part of, of of of resigning and removing yourself. from actual due processes of any kind.

Yeah. Although it was interesting to read about another terrible case. of a Democrat in Virginia, the former. lieutenant governor, shooting his wife. and then shooting himself. because he'd not been able to recover from, from accusations of. women when he'd run to be governor of Virginia, that he had sexually assaulted them and he'd basically run out of steam. He wasn't earning anything.

He'd set up his own shingle because he was a lawyer. And it's interesting. to think about what what happens to Eric Swalwell at this point. He he seemed utterly plausible as a congressman, although apparently there were. all sorts of rumors and people said, oh, we knew we'd. we'd heard about these things. But I wonder how you unless you embrace religion or something. I'm not sure how you bounce back from something like that. Or Tony Gonzalez himself. And they both apparently is still remaining married.

Well, in the question, the question unlike the former governor. in Virginia who was being, divorced by his wife. And I think that's at least as I read the reporting, what. prompted the murder and suicide? But, you know, I mean, I guess it's interesting, ordinarily, in the past, when Congress people left Congress, even under dirty, conditions, they, of course, became, lobbyists.

So, I mean, that that would be the obvious thing for Falwell to. But this, this, this thing that is to say, it's. so accusations of sexual assault and the cancellation. that, occur seems to have. As far, it looks to me as though that that hurts. the the lobbying future as a career option. So, yeah, it's a good question what a guy like that does. I mean, you know,

because we're whereas, it's possible that such a person, if they haven't been pedophiles as well, can could for instance, get a, a Partizan left. in his case, liberal if not left, media position. But yeah, I don't think I don't think that's in the cards at all, for him. So I don't know. But. Yeah, well, maybe I'm, I'm just a jerk.

I don't care either, but, you know, whatever. Well, I don't care either. But again, how is it possible that Donald Trump, who's got, I think, 28 accusations of various, levels of sexual abuse against him, how is it possible that he's able to have the top job still? Yeah, that is the question. And it's it's it relates to the previous conversation about. basically the religious nature of Donald Trump,

that that he's an anointed one, by God, which many, many. millions of people in the United States leave that in some way. He is is is it's a providential move by the Lord. And, you know, again, does he kind of, sort of. maybe believe that in some of these days, you never know. And that's the great conundrum of Donald Trump. Is it just lies or does he also believe it? And it's the conundrum of con men, con men forever, con people forever.

So, but it relates to that because. Donald Trump has always. in this as a kind of because he was so famous. in his way and pushed it and pushed it and was so unlike any other politician. He he he he left, he he. he dispensed with having the normal rules of, oh, that's wrong. He's done apply to it right from the start. Like when he called McCain a coward and just everything that oh, that's.

he's done now, you know that starting 11 years ago he was doing. and he escaped that for a decade. I think, the demigod quality. among those who truly regard him as some in. some celebrity ethereal celebrity world where normal rules don't apply, which was a remarkable thing to have pulled off for him.

But I think it's I think the The Shield is, is losing its power and juice. And I and I really do think, I'm hopeful indeed that in the next. day, my day and certainly, you know, months from now, and God knows, 942 days or whatever remain in this term. He, he's it's losing. He's losing that. I mean, inevitably there will be the people, you know, figuratively and literally in the bunker with him. Maybe not literally, because I don't think anybody's.

except maybe Stephen Miller is enough of a believer to stay in the bunker with him. But, I think his his true believer, I think the true believers, my sense. is that the true believers are, are, you know, peeling off. There are all sorts of rumors, online. So they must be true. And you did write a book about conspiracy theories that JD. Vance is going to resign, that the war has pushed him too far, and that he actually might resign if you would.

JD Vance, which is a big hypothetical that I understand. Yeah. Would you would you resign or would. you try and get the rest of the cabinet behind you? And in section. four of the 25th amendment, that's a very, very interesting question. Very true. There's and I hadn't heard the rumors of his resignation. It is probably the only. shot he has and becoming the nominee, you know.

But but it's a, it's a it's a long shot. And and none of these people seem. like they take the long shot, so they take the risk. I mean, it's the, to me, the explanation of the cowardice, craven cowardice. of, of, of elected Republicans in Washington is they have they. they are grotesquely risk averse, like, oh, I won't stand up. and say he's wrong about this or that because I'll know I want my job. However, in his case, I mean, he could go on unlike, say, Eric Swalwell,

he could have jobs and business and speaking. and, you know, being on Fox, whatever, he he could have a job. But if, if, if he thinks he can be I don't think a Republican, can be nominated. Who is a Donald Trump who, you know, isn't basically. I know I'm serious about keeping out of dumb wars, you know, I mean, the the the one of these, these important lies.

that he told about, like, no, I, I'm the guy to vote to vote for. If you if you don't want us to get into wars, you know the people I knew who. who had become Trumpers, the few people I knew it was all about that. It was about free speech and no wars. Right. Well, so but I think if if, if Tony Barnes has a, I mean, anything can happen. And of course, anybody who's ever been near. the Capitol building thinks maybe I could be president.

But I think I think JD Vance is out of luck. A he's a terrible, unlikable person as a politician. So that probably what I think, may is a problem for him from the get go. So it would be interesting, if he, if he resigned because it would make. Oh, wait, this guy actually believes in something. And, you know, to be maybe fair ish, he probably kind of does believe in that as as Tucker.

Probably, you know, I mean, these awful people. who believe all kinds of awful things aren't without. actual beliefs, unlike Donald Trump, who has an actual place. Right. And JD Vance is clearly ambitious. He's 41. Were he to resign on a point of principle, it would give him a much better platform from which to run in 2028. Do as you say. He's he's not likable as a retail politician now,

so who knows whether or not he would win. But in the time he could go off, he could certainly make some money, and it would be an interesting position for him to take, given that he. he did call Trump the new Hitler or America's Hitler. He already said I was right the first time. But no, he didn't even have to say that. I mean, he can say, you know, and as you make an interesting point. to that in terms of next stage, let's say is not president and certainly.

not president, 2028. to be a guy who, on a matter of principle, you know, it wasn't because I hated Trump or whatever. It was because this is just wrong and it's and I understood. And we should not be fighting these wars. Let's say that doesn't get him the nomination in 2028. It's still it's a good way to start, like having, you know, a political career that makes you.

look like you have some backbone, right? Right. It could be. Yeah, it could be a good move, because I don't see, you know, I mean, the other thing to thinking about and I don't. The 25th amendment, I just don't see it happening. I mean, again, he can get crazier and crazier, and then it could be unavoidable. when he's, you know, found prancing naked in the Lafayette Park or something. You know, I guess, which is what happened to Boris Yeltsin. Do you remember when Yeltsin came for a visit and was found drunk outfits.

going wandering in his underpants down Pennsylvania Avenue? Yeah, yeah, but I don't think Donald Trump has the vodka issue that Yeltsin had. Supposedly he does not drink, although he describes himself. as having an alcoholic personality, which is why he doesn't drink. I know, but know which which I, and I've talked to recovered alcoholics, a recovering alcohol about this very thing. which says there is a certain kind of,

unhappy sober person who who, or where it comes out in all these pathological ways, you know, and he, he couldn't quite well be one of those. Well, it's it's excellent. Talk to you a grounding for someday. And, a semi. celestial experience with the Connecticut birds in the background. Many thanks for joining us and hope to see you again.

Bless you, my child. I'll take it. And thank very much. Bye. It would be a miracle if we had a politician. who resigned on a point of principle, wouldn't it? And J.D. Vance is certainly young enough to do it. He's 41. His wife, Uche Avancer, Cambridge and Yale. educated lawyer, is putting out a subversive podcast.

for children on reading and reinforcing how important. public libraries are as they are being cut by many Republicans across the country. So who knows what's going to happen next. But, but put a comment. Tell us what you think. We've just heard what Curt thinks. Tell us what you think. Put it in the comments. I read and reply to as many of them as I can. And we love, love hearing from you. So if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to press the subscribe button.

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