I Know Why Trump Made Epstein His Best Friend | Inside Trump's Head

At Mar a Lago. There they have a beauty contest for what they call. what they're calling Calendar Girls. And they recruit all of these girls. that come down to Mar a Lago for this beauty pageant. When the girls get there, they find that it's an audience that consists of two, and it's only Donald Trump. and Jeffrey Epstein. Michael. Joanna.

So this is a special episode. We thought we would do some special episodes throughout the holidays. And this is one that is going to trace the relationship of Donald Trump, our current president, with Jeffrey Epstein, who died mysteriously. or possibly not in one of America's worst jails. And the Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. refers to it, of it all is the one thing.

that has consistently unsettled him all year. Well, the other thing is, you know, I, I mean, we've gone from his complete. denial about our relationship with, with Epstein. and to a understanding, I think many people. seem now to understand this and and the evidence. in in emails and other documentary.

material establishes this, in fact, a very close relationship. And certainly in my conversations with Epstein, he was always very particular about the fact. that they were the closest of friends. for, well over a decade. Right. So. where do we begin, Michael? I mean. Let's begin at the beginning, and I actually have a beginning.

Were you there at the beginning? Nothing would surprise me. Yes. I was not there, but. a very close friend of mine was there. In this would have been in the late. 80s, probably 1988. And, and it was in. a, restaurant downtown.

And my friend was there. with a man by the name of Charles Allen. Now, Charles Allen is the father of. of possibly the uncle. It occurs to me of Herbert Allen who now runs Allen and Company, and Charles Allen was in fact the founder of Allen and Company. So one of the senior most. financiers, in New York City.

And at this point in the late 80s, Charles Allen was emeritus, I think, in the firm, quite old at this at this point, but very much still a presence in, in New York, someone, anyone who is, who was in the money raising business and Trump was certainly in the money. raising business, would know and want to know. Okay. And, and Donald Trump.

at this point was what a well known real estate developer was. He sort of at the beginning of peak Trump was this when he was on the front of the. New York Post all the time. Yeah. I mean, this would I think I think the art of the deal. was in 1989. So so that would have been that would have been the first flowering. of Donald Trump's Donald Trump's fame. But but he was a person trying to do deals.

in, in New York had done a few significant. I think he had done the Commodore Hotel. That was his first major, major project. And he was very much on the scene and trying to be on the scene. Okay. So Charles Allen brings them together. No, no, no. Charles Allen is just in a restaurant in New York having dinner. Just without without,

nothing to do with Donald Trump except Donald Trump then. comes into the restaurant and, and greets Charles Allen. And the important part introduces him. I'd like you to meet my, my associate, Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey. Jeffrey, let's note the Jeffrey. The Jeffrey of it all. The Jeffrey of it all.

So that's the first moment that I can put, Trump and Epstein together. a witness, somebody I know, a piece of dialog. There it is. And two people and very much. And and and at the intersection with an important person in New York City. So Trump was sufficiently friendly with him. that he was calling him Jeffrey, even in 1988.

And my and my associate. So it was a kind of, you know, I mean, clearly they have, they have they have a relationship, possibly a business relationship, a flirtatious relationship. I, I don't I don't know the nature of the relationship, except that. that would indicate both Jeffrey and my associate that we are not, that we that we are that we are well inside of an established friendship. Okay.

And Jeffrey and Donny, two boys out on the town. Two boys out on the town. Yes. So, the next point. at which I can put them together is a story. that Epstein told. And, and I think this occurs in. not long after, maybe 89, possibly 90. Trump, Trump's father.

makes him look at a piece. of real estate in Brooklyn. Now Trump's entire. thing is to get out of the Burrows, to establish. which is where his father's real estate business has flourished in Queens. Right. I think in probably all the boroughs, it just is. Fred Trump was active everywhere. but in Manhattan because Manhattan was too expensive to glamor.

You know, the glamor premium, you know, a Fred. Trump was a low rent real estate guy. And he was not looking to be. what Donald Trump came to look to be, which is so ugly. I'm a guy. Donald Trump wanted the wanted the spotlight. Fred never wanted the spotlight, just wanted the profits. So. And and Fred was always unhappy.

that his son was pursuing this this, this Manhattan dream. and at this point in time, but then was trying to restrain him. Go look at this piece of property in Brooklyn. So, Trump calls up his friend. Jaffe and says, you know, I gotta do this, you know, will you come? Will you come with me? And, and possibly.

he said, and bring some girls because. Trump. then shows up in the limo in front of where Jeffrey. Epstein lives, which is on the East side, not in the big house. He would come to inhabit, but in an in an apartment on, I believe, on 69th Street. But I could be. Wrong in a starter apartment complex, considering what would. become of his real estate portfolio. Yes, yes.

I thought you were going to say in in the Sinatra apartment, because Sinatra apartment then had an apartment over there also. In a in a, you know, a building that Epstein could have inhabited. But anyway, so Trump, Trump shows up the limousine, and the the. the detail is that the, the limousine has a, a,

what is that sliding roof? Right. Sunroof. Right. And so he pulls up and Epstein is outside. waiting for Trump, and he is with two girls. And each girls has a large dog on the leash. Each girl has a large dog on the leash. Yes. And I, as I recall in the telling, they are Afghans. So. And Trump stands up, puts his head through the.

through the roof of the limousine and says, no dogs, no dogs. Of course, he did, because Trump is a man who's never had a relationship. with an animal, let alone a dog man's best friend. And Epstein says. no dogs, no girls. So, and that results in them all. Trump makes his decision. Dogs, the girls, and they all pile into the limousine.

and, head to Brooklyn to look at this piece of real estate. and, and it's, as I recall, in Epstein's telling, it's a, it's a piece of, it's a piece of land. There may be buildings on it, but it's basically a large tract tract of land. And as they look at it, everything says to Trump, if you if you, if you buy this, if you become a Brooklyn real estate developer, I don't want to have anything to do with you ever again.

What's this? This is it. You decide between you. Your decision is between me and Brooklyn. And remember, this can't be. True, Michael. This must be. This must be apocryphal. Oh, I don't think so. Why would it be? I mean, it makes perfect sense. Epstein is from Brooklyn. Neither of them want to return to Brooklyn. Brooklyn is glamorous now. Then it was not. Get me out of Brooklyn. And Trump certainly didn't want to be there because his,

you know, his he was only there because his father was instructing him. This is what you have to you have to do. And Epstein doesn't want to be there because he he wants. to have nothing to do with it with, with Brooklyn. And and I think this goes to the there. kind of relationship, which is, which is competitive. But they're kidding each other. But it's it's some something something is going is going on.

a set of insults back and forth that, that. I mean, that that rings quite true. Well, and I suppose it shows a kind of intimacy to that. Epstein felt comfortable saying to Trump, it's me or. Brooklyn and Trump thinking, of course I don't want to be in Brooklyn. I want to be, the center of attention in Manhattan. Exactly. And then Trump says, you know, I'm not gonna I I'm, you know, I'm.

just doing this. My father just making me do this, and this is this is never going to happen. And then they head back to Manhattan and I believe, and they end up at a restaurant, a restaurant called Mortimer's, which was on 75th and Lexington. Right. Which was. Upper East Side at the side the. The society restaurant of the of the 19,

you know, of the 80s and 90s. And, and they are turned away. They're turned away. Why are they turned away? Because they have two enormous Afghan dogs. Well, it could be because of the dogs, or it could be because it's Donald Trump. It's not, you know, he he has not yet arrived. Or and he's still looked at as a, a guy from the boroughs. Right. An arriviste.

Right. So they're very, very, so Trump is, is. very unhappy with this, furious action, actually. Well, and humiliated. Humiliated. And, and that is so that's the end of this. That's what that's what I know of that. Of that. Story. So bad day all round, forced by his father to go and examine. a piece of real estate in Brooklyn, he never wants to by force, by his friend,

take two Afghan dogs in a stretch limo that he doesn't want. And then he's rejected from a posh restaurant, which would symbolize his arriving in Manhattan. And in fact, he was rejected and humiliated. It's a little bit like what happened to him at the 2011, white House Correspondents Dinner, when Barack. Obama humiliates him by poking fun at him. It's a consistent theme throughout his life revenge.

And the theme. He is always trying to use his own fame and notoriety to counter that. And in fact, that's the next the next. moment that I know of. In in his relationship. with, with with Jeffrey Epstein. And and I'm unclear on who knows who first, but this is the moment at which Robert Maxwell,

the, Just the right killer. Of Glenn Maxwell. And the disgraced British tycoon. Yes. Steps in. He's not disgraced yet. Quite. Yeah, quite the opposite. He is at the top. The pinnacle of his. Of his moment in time. And I think this is 1990. And he steps forward to by the Daily News. Still a very significant newspaper. I mean, people barely know the Daily News exists at this point.

Right? But it was then. It was then, you know, a significant newspaper. You could argue, actually, it's the largest circulation newspaper in New York at the time. And, and clearly in Donald. Trump's interest, I mean, Donald Trump becomes a Donald Trump. basically because of the attention of the New York tabloids. So he and and again, I'm. not sure who knew Maxwell first.

Whether it was Epstein, whether it was whether it was Trump, whether this is the moment that that Epstein meets Maxwell gets. introduced to the to the Maxwell family, which obviously would have, repercussions, decades later. But, but. Trump becomes or represents himself to Maxwell.

as someone who can help get this deal done. He knows he knows the, he knows the real estate interests in New York. Real estate is a is. a major advertising category. He also knows union people, union people. And at that point in time, the newspapers were highly unionized.

You couldn't do a deal if you didn't have the cooperations with the unions. And Michael, just just remind us, who owned the New York Daily News at the time? Who was Maxwell buying it from? I, I, I believe that was still owned. at that point by the Tribune Company. Michael, I'm enjoying this trip down memory lane. The Maxwell's the daily news.

It all seems so much more innocent than. Well, yeah. I mean, these were two guys just trying to make it in the big city. I mean, it is really not more than that at this point in time. You know, I mean, Trump was. building a profile. Epstein didn't have a profile. I'm not sure he did. He want one maybe I, I don't I don't know, but he was actually interested.

You know, this whole idea of, of, of the Daily News of having an in at a major New York newspaper, knowing the owner, getting involved in whatever. And remember, Maxwell was a crook. He would go on to be a, you know, one of the great crooks of the, of the time. How much were they attracted to that? Attracted to the what would we call that? The, the not blue chip.

side of of of someone, someone making his mark because they were both of them. Not blue chip guys trying to make their mark. And this is. fundamental to this, to this, that they were both outsiders. Epstein an outsider. Trump an outsider. The guys from the boroughs trying to make it in. Manhattan.

So, now. A couple of things happen here. First, first of all, the the Max Maxwell buying the dealings. Maxwell is a crook. And he is shortly to be found out and his ownership. of the Daily News collapses. Well, he collapses first. He goes, he kills himself or is killed. or slips and falls.

off of off of his yacht called the. The lady killing. Yes. And then he's, So anyway. So then then the paper becomes, part of the estate which is in bankruptcy. It's a it's a, it's a disaster. But then Epstein, at this point, actually, both Epstein and Trump. step forward and get involved in, in,

the purchase of the paper by Moore Zuckerman, who's another real estate guy in, in New York and Zuckerman and, and Epstein actually become become close. friends. I. Mean, meanwhile, we should just point out, not only does Robert Maxwell die. in mysterious circumstances like Jeffrey Epstein goes on to do, but he pillages. the pension fund of his British newspapers.

to the tune of half $1 billion, which is an unheard of scam. Just the scale of the scam at the time was was almost beggars belief. And of course, he was busy in his own way. as an outsider trying to compete with Rupert Murdoch. So in the way that Jeffrey and Donny were hanging out, Robert Maxwell was in. a battle to the death with Rupert Murdoch, but it turned out to be his own death.

And tracking that this is the moment when, when Trump's business empire goes into extremis. So Trump's bankruptcies Trump. Trump has to has to manage and navigate. several major bankruptcies at this time. I mean, deeply threatening to to all of his, all of his interests, including the fact that he has personally guaranteed.

much of the of the of of the loans that the banks are now calling. And when you say his businesses, what were his businesses? Were these simply I say simply, but were these purely real estate at this point. Purely real estate? Well, and I mean, gambling game, I mean, I mean, he has, you know, he. Casinos, That he's expanded into Atlantic cities. He has a building projects in the city.

But but these are all, he has, he owns briefly an airline. So he has bought Eastern Airlines. Why? I remember all these businesses, the names of these businesses from, from, a half a century ago, I don't know, but eastern ran. the shuttle to Washington between New York and Washington, DC.

Oh, what a metaphor. That he owns that corridor, that shuttle flight to Washington. Right. Well, he didn't own it for very long. Also a matter for a. Matter of fact, as I recall, he missed his first. His first payment. And, and then and then that went into bankruptcy. And that was, that was itself a legal kind of how did this happen?

Because if you miss your first payment in the bankruptcy, that means. basically, pretty much you've lied about your sources of financing. It's not as if your. business, the business as you projected, did not do as well as you thought it would do and put you in extremis. But from the first day, you're in extremis. And, so why that was. And, and actually, Epstein would always chortle about that.

How Trump got away with, with the, with the eastern shuttle or as it became, of course, the Trump shuttle. But it wasn't only that there was a whole set of bankruptcies. You know, the the Atlantic City bankruptcies, the, the problems with the New York real estate. and the fact that suddenly he owed. the banks $1 billion. Wow. Now, this is where where,

where Epstein gets kind of deeply involved with Trump's with Trump's. businesses, which which is that, you know, what am I going to do? Trump is like, what am I going to do? And, and. it was then Epstein's suggestion, one of the key things. So he managed basically, I mean, his, his, his, his situation was so extreme. that that effectively.

the banks had to agree to take a bath on this, that they, they said, we are we are going to forgive you these deaths. Now, how that came about is another story which which. I think is completely unclear. But they forgave him. these debts of up to about $1 billion and when. So the problem there, though, is when the banks forgive you. your debts, that becomes income.

You have to pay taxes on it. In theory. And obviously if and and or. would seem apparent that if you can't pay, if you don't have the billion dollars to return to the banks, you probably don't. have the half $1 billion that taxes on that money is going to cost. And it was, again, Epstein chortling his claim,

that he was the one who told Trump. that actually, none of this because of the nature, the nature of this, you really haven't gotten the money. It never has come in as income and exists. And forgiveness sort of exists, in a different order of ether, unknown to the IRS that, you just don't have to pay it, which Epstein would then come to later.

maintain was one of the key reasons that we've never, to. this day, have never seen Donald Trump's Donald Trump's tax returns. How is it possible that we haven't seen his tax returns? How is it possible? How was all of this possible? How was any of this possible? Yeah. It's true. I'm finishing your sentences at this point. It's horrifying. It's horrifying, and it's fascinating. So. So what was Jeffrey Epstein doing at this stage?

I mean, obviously he was was he post the Ponzi scheme that he got caught up in. but managed to avoid and someone else went to jail at this point. So he was. Horsburgh, a man, but a gentleman by the name of Hoffenberg. And this know this. This would have been just about the same time. Right? So they were both caught up in weird financial. Weird weird financial. No. And it's important to understand that that's what. these guys to not be blue chip.

So everybody understands blue chip is you know, your financing is in you know your collateral was is. is sufficient. You have relationships with, with established banks and bankers. with, your your what, your. what you're supposed to be you are part of a financial establishment. These two guys are not, and, you know, people. in the real estate business are often, you know, there's,

you know, there's blue chip real estate guys. And then there is guys who are not blue chip real estate guys. Trump very much not a not a, a blue chip real estate guy. And remember, this is a moment in time, you know, a great debt bubble, which is in the process at this moment in time of, of bursting. Although there will be many debt bubbles afterwards. But in which there was you could you,

you know, if, if you were willing to. What would be the let's let's think of the, if you could fake it, if you were of the fake it to you make it variety. It was a pretty good time. Except when the bubble burst, then you get, then you get caught out. and Epstein himself, what did he do? What was his business background? Certainly it not not blue chip.

I mean, it's always the questions, the questions equally about Donald Trump. and Jeffrey Epstein are always, where did the money come from? How did they get this, this, this, this money? You know, I mean, I mean, Epstein describe would later describe. when Donald Trump bought Mar-A-Lago. He bought it from, essentially a loan provided by construction unions.

in New York against promises of work that he would deliver. Or all of this, again, is is, less less then blue chip. Less than blue chip. Okay. And is possibly illegal even, but, you know, you're always straddling the line here. And remember Donald Trump, who's been in litigation throughout the entirety.

of of his career, this became his fundamental talent. I can walk the line, you know, and walking. the line means not only that, you have to have the, the moral flexibility to do that, but you also have to have the stomach for it because, you know, people are going to come after you. because you're going to you're going people are going to try to. hold you accountable for that. And Michael, we've had on the Daily Beast podcast over the last few months,

two women that hung out with Epstein and said that Epstein would take them. almost as trophy girlfriends, they were both models, both gorgeous. One was Stacy Williams, who was a Sports Illustrated model. The other, Cleo Glide, who was a model for Yves Saint Laurent. She was a muse there, and they both described. going with Jeffrey Epstein walking down Fifth Avenue. when he was by this point installed in his big house,

and walking to Trump Tower and Donald Trump certainly. jumping on Stacy Williams and groping her in front of, Jeffrey Epstein, who then did nothing, did nothing, and then berated her in the elevator on the way down, shouting at her, why did you let him do that? You know, you know, I think this this this would have been just in the. keeping the chronology straight. a bit later, I think that House.

comes into his possession in and I you know, it could be a year or two of think, but I think it's about 96. Okay. So this is the. So maybe he didn't maybe they didn't set off from the house then. because they were both models in the late 80s, early 90s. But they described walking down Fifth Avenue. and Clio glide was wearing a short white dress. And. listeners of that. podcast will remember he said, oh my God, you look like a nurse.

You look like a nurse, Donald. Like this. Do you have another friend who can wear a similar dress? And I'm going to arrive at his house and pretend you're two nurses total. And that was always, I mean, first thing, that Epstein was always in a, in a like, like that kind of gag, like he was a big gag guy. But it was sort of evidence of them playing with women, toying with women and being in on, in on the jokes together.

Yeah. At this point, that's what I mean. That becomes, I mean, there are two, two basis of their relationships. really money and and money and women and goodness. And matter of fact in so in 1992, I believe, and this is right after, you know, this is the Daily news, the Trump, the bankruptcies, doing all of what, whatever they're doing. But in 1992 is the count, the famous calendar girl party,

which is that they have. Like the Calendar girl party. You know, at Mar-A-Lago there they have a beauty contest. for what they call what they're calling Calendar Girls. And they recruit all of these girls to come down to Mar-A-Lago. for this, for this beauty pageant. And, when the girls get there, they find that there are only, that it's an audience.

that consists of two, and it's only. Donald only, and. Jeffrey Epstein. Donna and Jeffrey. And this would so this would be at Mar-A-Lago in, in, in 1992. But again all it's always the. the girls, the beauty pageant girls. The models is a is a foundation of of this. And there's a story from about this this time, you know, 92, 93 ish when,

that, that Epstein told. about Trump at a, at a. night place, night club. ish then I, you know, sort of a restaurant, but, you know, a hot place, at that. time called the China Club. And and Epstein says, and this is later he's. telling this he's no longer Trump's friend,

and is painting Trump. as much more despicable than he is. And he describes Trump Trump as, as going behind the bar and, you know, effectively attacking the bartender, in a rather in public view. A woman bartender or a male bartender. A woman bartender. Attacking a woman bartender. Yes. Coming up behind her, you know that?

Let's. Oh, that. Old trick that coming up behind you? Yes. Right. And this is the period. So this is because of 93, 93, 94. And, you know, Marla maples is now coming into this picture, but it is. also the, the moment in which Epstein and Trump are sharing a girlfriend. This is. a Norwegian model.

And, and who I whatever. the arrangement is back and forth, I mean, again, they're, they're, they are playing with someone and they are this is their shared. not only girlfriend but kind of a shared joke. And I think, you know, there's reason. it's, you know, I would say sort of likely that his reference. to this secret that we have in the birthday letter.

So remember, the birthday letter is in 1993, right? Jeffrey Epstein's fifth. Letter from Trump to, Jeffrey Epstein. And he refers to our secret. Wonderful secret, a wonderful secret. Okay. And that was the Norwegian girlfriend they both shared. The, Well, we can, it would not be unlikely that that is what the references it was.

And that seemed to be a theme. for Jeffrey Epstein, too, because he and Prince Andrew, who they. Andrew, formerly known as Prince also shared Ghislaine Maxwell at one point. You know, I mean Trump and Andrew. No, I mean Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew also shared and Maxwell. So this was one of Epstein's things that he was quite happy to share. Girlfriend. Oh, I. Think I think yeah. No I think you what which that makes you know, I mean, the last thing that,

that Jeffrey Epstein wanted with any of these women. was permanence, right? That's what he was most he was allergic to. And, you know, at one point in my conversations. with, with Epstein when he was looking for. how to rehabilitate his reputation, and, what could he do? What could I said?

Well, you could get married and have a family. And he said, I would rather go back to jail. Well, lucky for him, he made the right choice then. Yes. But he. said he said to you I would rather go back to jail. Yeah. They lived in this, this world, in in which there was no pretense. and no value at all to domesticity.

Just the, the. the very idea was contrary to everything. And this is both Trump and Epstein, everything that they wanted to achieve. And Marla maples now comes into the, into. the picture, Trump is married to a van. The marriage is. not the, you know, I think.

probably principally in name only at this point. He, but he becomes involved with, with Marla maples. They're we've discussed this. I think we've discussed this before. There's references this to the in the in the, Epstein emails, Marla maples becomes pregnant, where she tells Trump that she's pregnant. Trump goes to his friend Epstein and says, what am I going to do?

Epstein says, she's not pregnant. I guess just what they tell you to to, to get you to marry them. And, you know, if she's if she's pregnant, I'll send you, you know, a year's supply of. I'll bet a year's supply of, I think, baby food, diapers. And at any rate, Trump. then actually confirms that she is pregnant.

and then goes back to Epstein and says, well, what am I going to do now? So at any rate. So, so he comes back to, to Epstein and says, hey, you know, I, I think, I'm kind of screwed here. She really, really is pregnant. And then so they go into a big debate about. what can he do in that situation? How do you convince her to get an abortion? How do you, Yeah. I mean, it's,

it's sort of both. tragic and comical to to imagine these guys. who have no sensitivity to this whatsoever. No, I had no idea, actually, of how you think about something. Something something like this. And but at any rate, it actually. it actually results again here in some. kind of old fashion notion of what you have to do of Trump, of Trump.

getting married to Marla maples, and she has the child and, and then subsequently, of course, they get a divorce. Right? So the child is Tiffany and of course, he got divorced from Ivana, got married to Marla, got divorced from Marla. Married. And then and then we come in to the, to the to the Melania period. And, and. so Epstein.

and Trump, what they are doing, you know, the fact that that suddenly he's become, you know, married to Marla maples is not an impediment. to to the life they otherwise lead. I mean, it is a life of, in constant pursuit of women. And Epstein himself, at this, at this point is more and more involved. with with, less Wexner and Victoria's. Secret and all of the all and the.

the whole new world of models that that opens up, up to him. and they become both of them involved in modeling agencies, financing modeling agencies. Love, you know, essentially establishing this, this conduit to unlimited number of, of, women, girls because they are.

they are models of. uncertain age. So, Michael, we've covered a lot of ground here from them. arriving in Brooklyn with two Afghan dogs in a stretch limo to Donald Trump owning. a modeling agency, Jeffrey Epstein having an investment in a modeling agency. Trump owning Miss Universe, them having models audition for just the two of them.

I, and now we hit the Melania years. I wonder if this is a good time to to end this episode and then pick up. next time on part two of the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. It's a good place to end, because this is this is, Melania actually begins the next phase of Donald Trump's life. Which of phase is still. depending upon how you look at it in.

Does he work night goggles, night vision goggles? Cassata likes a green. I can't stop the my Instagram feed is full of people. miming her reading that book, and it is remarkable. that she still struggles so with the English language. When she's been here 30 years. I'm not saying I can speak Slovenian, and I know that she can speak. five other languages, but English.

One, we have never heard them. Well, of course we've never heard them, but we have heard her English. And for someone who's been here for 30 years, it's it's complicated. But obviously she spoke Slovenian to her parents when they were here, her father still here and Slovenian to Baron, to Michael. I hope you're having a very happy holiday season. I imagine you running around with little lanterns up. and down the Hamptons, high streets, singing in parades. You know, that's me, Joanna. You got me.

I've got you. In fact, I know you're probably curled up in your study reading a pile of books, and I hate going back through all your notes on Jeffy and Donnie. But really, Jeffy? Jeffy puts a whole new a whole new, face on on their relationship now. I mean, these are 2 to 2 guys joking around through the 80s and 90s. Two bad guys hiding in plain. Life is not a serious proposition for either of them,

or it certainly doesn't seem because it's it's, I suppose, not serious. It's it's a sort of both the guys on the grift. and both guys looking for to, for, for women who then they're trying to get rid of. And then both guys bullying. and threatening other men. Great guys. The best guys, greatest guys.

All right, Michael, go back to your Christmas pudding or whatever else you're eating. And let's recommence this conversation in a couple of days time. Great. Good. And we should thank our top level members. And they are Sandra Clarke, methinks. Travel with Karl Andrew Beaver, the Kappa Nader, Harry Clarke, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel Dog Lover, Em Griner, Fulvia, Orlando,

Herbie, Andrew Miller, Lars, candy, Bonzo, Val, love, Francesco, Andrea, hotel, Bo Kok, DC, Sharon. Shipley, Connie. Rutherford, Karen. White, Heidi. Riley thank you all. Thank you. Devin, Anna and Jesse, without whom?