I Know Why Royals Can Never Shake Epstein Scandal | The Daily Beast Podcast

This is one of the problems with researching in this era. that so much the material. Actually, ironically, the Epstein material is often there, but once it gets into the hands. of the British government, it seems to be destroyed. And though the King has said in public that the court role is take its course, and all papers will be made available, certainly as late as December. Police protection officers were receiving letters saying that they were. being reminded of their obligations of confidentiality, not to talk.

So it's the same old story of window dressing. And that is the problem with Charles, that if he is found to have, in effect, been perverting the course of justice, then he is in trouble. himself. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast, and today we are examining. what is going on in the House of Windsor in Buckingham Palace, in Windsor Castle, with King Charles, with William and Kate. And of course, how are they all responding to.

Well, to, frankly, the disgrace of Andrew, still eighth in line. to the throne, formerly known as Prince and the subject of Andrew. Lone is awesome book entitled. Regular watchers and observers of this podcast may remember that. we had Andrew on the very week his book entitled was released in the US. We've been having him back to give us royal updates ever since. And I guess I really wanted to know.

what's happening with the whole questioning of Andrew. You all remember he was taken in on his 66th birthday. ten days ago and subjected to 11 hours of police questioning. Well, since then we've really heard nothing. So what's going to happen? Is he going to be charged? Are there other investigations going on? Or do we think this all gets kicked under the royal rug? Well, no one better to explain this than Andrew Loney, who spent three years. writing the book and whose paperback of entitled Will be out in May.

We had a couple of technical difficulties, I think it's fair to say when we were doing this. So if you hit a bit. where Andrew's face is pixelated or you can't quite hear, stay with us. I think we ironed out most of the issues. But in case we didn't bear with us. Andrew Loney, it's fantastic to have you back on the podcast. Thank you very much. We had you the first week that your book entitled came out, and since then the Madness around the man formerly known as Prince Andrew.

And now, just humbly, Andrew has only gotten wild. He's lost his title. He's all over the Epstein files we saw ten days ago. He got arrested. You are keeping meticulous notes. on his whereabouts and what he's up to. But, Andrew, what have been the most damaging. allegations against the man formerly known as Prince Andrew in the Epstein files? Gosh, for me, there's been so much material.

I mean, it's it's been, extraordinary for me to see it because it's gratifying. to see that a lot of the stuff that I researched has been backed up by, what's there? I mean, I think there are two things. One is the shamelessness in which he behaved, and the fact that these girls were brought and they were joking about them. and having playrooms and playtime. So that's the sexual trafficking side. But I think also just how shameless he was in terms of sharing. confidential information with people like Jeffrey Epstein.

I think it really makes a very, very strong case for him to be charged. I don't think with misconduct in public office, I would actually go after him for treason. I mean, the stuff that he's giving, is is, is diplomatic secrets. There is material there which is, which is very damaging. If it was to be seen by a foreign power. So, you know, I hope that that's. the material now is there for the police to investigate him. They fought shy of this for years, despite people like Di Davis, the former head of police,

protection, saying that there was a case. in spite of Virginia Giuffre, asking him to investigate. So, but it is extraordinary. Each day brings fresh disclosures, fresh connections. I think also, it's really made clear the very deep role. that Sarah Ferguson. had in the whole operation and, and how the tentacles were spread. so widely into so many different countries. I mean, I my own feeling is this is a story, actually about national. security, about how it's very easy for intelligence services to penetrate,

Britain using the royal family because they have no oversight. And some of them are very greedy. And, I mean, we've got a story breaking in Britain. at the moment about Chinese spies around Beatrice. But, I mean, there being Chinese spies around the royal family for years, and don't seem to be that concerned. Andrew, I can't believe that you're actually saying. out loud, in full seriousness that Andrew Marr. But Windsor, you think should be tried for treason.

Can you just explain a bit more? And also how serious treason is, or if treason is very serious? And I don't say it lightly. But, you know, communicating with a foreign power is, in fact, what he was doing, I think is, is treasonous. I mean, one of the things I've been talking about in the last. few weeks is a document given to me by American intelligence. saying that, Andrew was operating with. It's actually headed, political corruption.

Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. It's dated the 15th of January, 2026. And I think we've we've had several stories emerge in Britain recently. Tim Chipman, who is political editor of The Spectator, wrote a diary. last week based on his own Whitehall sources. That, the great concern is that this is a national security scandal. I've getting a lot of my intelligence sources saying to me the same thing. This is how it's going to break, and we're getting intelligence. But sources talking to the press now, leaking stories.

because they're being blamed for not having kept a proper eye on Andrew. and Sarah Ferguson when they did, and they complained about it. And I think we may even have talked, on one of our previous occasions of how. Mrx took stories about Andrew's activities in Kazakhstan to the Queen. private secretary, and was sent away with the Flynn in their ear. So, you know, I know from talking to my sources. and one of them I interviewed actually at the National Arts Club when I saw. you in December,

that, the intelligence sources. come across Andrew and Sarah Ferguson, not because they were targeting them, but because they were associating with people who were under observation. So this is really serious. And I think, you know, it serves as a sexual and financial allegation, so on. And so can you bring us up to speed on what what's happened. post Andrew's questioning by the police, they turned up on his 66th birthday. He was, led away.

What has been the results of that? Well, we don't know what the result of that has been. I mean, he was, questioned for 11 hours. That may just have confirmed what, they knew already. We don't know if he's going to be brought in again. It seemed to me a slightly heavy handed approach. because he was only going in for questioning. He could have just presented himself with a police station. My own feeling is that, like Mandelson, he was a flight risk. and he was about to disappear somewhere, hence the early morning raid.

But at the same time, Private Eye reporting that the, King and Andrew. were both warned that the police were coming early than fact, came slightly later than they normally do. Normally. It's five in the morning. And he was allowed to get out, you know, get dressed and shaved. and be ready for them. But I. think what's going to happen now is we're going to have a long period. where the issue is going to be subdued, to say. they're going to be conducting their investigations. I hope they will be interviewing some of his associates, like David.

Rowlands, his secretary, Amanda Thirsk, etc.. And I hope also that the King will be allowing, members of staff. the protection officers, the ballots, their queries to actually give evidence, and be released from the NDA so they can actually tell the truth of. what was happening. I can't recommend your Substack highly enough, because it's full of all sorts of details as these things seem to be happening. Can you talk to us about the most recent revelations.

of Jeffrey Epstein having a put out keeping. girls in, apartments in Mayfair, and also the fact that Andrew. seemed to have a Ukrainian girlfriend in an apartment in Mayfair, which is a very ritzy part of London, for those who don't know it. Yes. It's an interesting story. I mean, it was in the book. No one seemed to pick up on it. And, I do know that he was. also running at least two mistresses in New York.

I've got the addresses and the names, one of whom later committed suicide. So, it's, I suspect that Jeffrey Epstein was paying for them because Andrew wasn't. someone who put his hand in his pocket very easily. But, of course, Mayfair is very close to Buckingham Palace. That would have been very convenient. And in fact, I had an occasion. just just a few days ago with someone turned up on my doorstep, a paparazzi saying that here was some pictures of Andrew. with one of his mistresses, which he wanted me to see.

So I think we know that Andrew had mistresses all over the place. What do you say? They're mistresses. What's the difference between a mistress and a girlfriend at this point? He was divorced, right? So he's entitled top girlfriends? Yes. Well, I mean, you know, it may be a rather old fashioned word. I think the thing with the mistress is, that she was paid. He paid for the call. Someone paid for the accommodation. And so she was a sort of kept woman. So I think that's where I would make the distinction. There were lots of girlfriends, of course, coming and going, and there were lots of escorts coming and going. I mean, he was a pretty indiscriminate,

but I think there also seemed to be this woman who, I would say there were trafficked, but, because it seems to be in. a consensual relationship, but clearly were kept by him. So Gordon Brown, the former British prime. minister, has now weighed in to to try and connect. the sex trafficking of girls through one of, the UK's, airports. Stansted. Can you bring us up to speed with with what's happening with that too?

And how does that connects to, the former Prince Andrew? Well, it's an interesting intervention by Gordon Brown. It's not clear whether he had this information for years. And he's only now going public with it or is only just obtained it. He may well, for example, have asked to see his papers. because he had vague memories of this happening. I think the problem with with these flights is that we don't know. who the girls were often just said female, and many of the flight logs.

have been destroyed. And this is one of the problems with researching this area that so much. the material, actually, ironically, the Epstein material is often there, but once it gets into the hands. of the British government, it seems to be destroyed. So there's the logs, for example, for Buckingham Palace, which, people. have asked to see, first of all, were withheld on national security grounds. And then it was said that they'd been destroyed. We've got, I think, 11 now, police forces looking at, the, the different airports around Britain and woman that were brought in,

some we think for Andrew, some woman have come forward. The men on Sunday have written a story about one woman who they don't name. I've certainly got some other names, other individuals. who I believe were brought in, his driver used to go to Heathrow every Sunday afternoon and pick up. two women, who were brought to him on a Sunday afternoon. So I think, you know, if people are talking, the though should be enough, evidence and hopefully they will then.

testify to, to actually bring charges on the sex trafficking as well. I think, Andrew, this is a story that has been dogged by suicides. Virginia Giuffre, Jeffrey Epstein himself, Jean-Luc. Brunel, the French model modeling agency owner. And now this is, I think, the first time. hearing of Andrew had a mistress who committed suicide. Yes, yes. I'm going to put some of this material on the paper, so I better, better be careful what I say. But,

Yes. I mean, as you say, the. number of people in this story seem to hide rather mysterious deaths. I mean, this the suicide may be explained. I want to do a bit more research. and talking at the moment to her best friend, who's also a model, who has the story, but, it does suggest that. there is a much darker side to the story than I think people realized. And when you asked, I suppose. what was most extraordinary about the Epstein revelations? It is this role, the darker side.

I was being fed all sorts of stories about sort of. satanic abuse and murders and, unexpected. deaths, and I ignored those because it just seemed to be, kind of, plausible. But it's something perhaps one should look at. Again, it's very interesting. to see what's on the internet, to see what's in these files, which which go beyond the story as we've understood it so far. So as you. pointed out in your book and is now becoming clear.

from the release of the Epstein files, Prince Andrew had been, the source of various complaints, internal investigations. Why has it taken so long for people. to take these allegations against him seriously? Well, I think, you know, it's been a sort of loosening up process. So, entitled kind of started the process.

And then we had some leaks, that were written up. I mean, showing that, for example, both Andrew and Sarah had lied about how long they had known Epstein. Then we have Virginia Giuffre's book, which I think humanized the whole story. And then I think the these Epstein links. releases, I mean, they've been various stages of them. have just piled on that pressure. So we've reached a tipping point, and I think it's now, you know, very difficult for people to, you know, say we can't do anything. There isn't evidence. But you're absolutely right.

I mean, you know, when my book came out six months ago, there was no reaction. Both, you know, the palace, the police. and the government could have done something. I've continued to fight to get access to Andrew's files. Certainly people. who were speaking up very vociferously in Parliament. last week had refused, for example, to talk to me like Chris Bryant. So I think people really feel more prepared to talk, perhaps that things have changed. I'm certainly getting a lot of people coming forward, particularly in the last few weeks,

with stories again, much more prepared to go on the record than they were before. So I think it is just this drip, drip feed of stuff, which is just put. his position is totally untenable now. But it is extraordinary. I mean, they could have done something in 2010 when, Sarah was found selling access to Andrew's a trade envoy. Nothing happened. We've had press coverage of his relationship with Roland's. and others for 15 years, and nothing has happened. There was a high court case in 2022 where unexplained monies.

were being paid to the York family. Again, nothing happened. We know that the palace tried to shut the story down time and time again. Famous, occasion with ABC Television and Amy Robach, where ABC. pulled their program for fear of losing access to the Royals. So there have been plenty of opportunities to, to do something. And I just the will wasn't there. People were afraid. Perhaps there was still I mean, as there is remains.

a culture of deference to the royal family. Even with the parliamentary debate, it was only about Andrew. because he was a common citizen. And we still haven't got the position where any members of the royal family can be, put up to any. form of scrutiny in Parliament, which seems extraordinary. So, you know, there's some way still to go, I fear. What position does this put King Charles in. with his younger brother being forced out of Royal Lodge and squeezed.

into the much smaller, still five bedroom Mash Farm on the Sandringham estate? I mean, how is the king handling all this? Well, I think actually, public opinion seems to feel that. he's doing quite a good job. My own feeling, and I think also what you can see on social media. is that it's the same old strategy of, say, doing very little, leaving it too late, and hoping the problem will go away.

The problem for the king is that, and the four walls. are going up to protect him for plausible deniability. Is the king, we know was involved in the settlement. Probably putting money into it, but certainly in the discussions. He was co ruling with the Queen for the last few years of her reign. He was well aware of, of, of the problems and did nothing. in fact I think acted to prevent some of this coming out. And he has pled occasions, even in the last year.

or so, to to be much stricter with his younger brother. I mean, moving him to a five bedroom house, and sort of removing his titles doesn't really count. And though the King has said in public that the court law must take its course, and the all papers will be made available. Certainly as late as December, police protection officers were receiving letters. saying that they were being reminded of their obligations of confidentiality,

not to talk. So it's the same old story of window dressing. What's happening in public. and what's happening in private are very different things. And that is the problem with Charles, that if he is found to have, in effect, been perverting the course of justice, then he is in trouble himself. Wow. I mean, this story is so wide and so deep. And, I mean, there's all sorts of speculation. that Charles is going to abdicate and pass the throne on to William.

What are you hearing from the people around. Prince William and Kate about how they think of Andrew. and how they're planning once Prince William takes over? How are they planning to contain Andrew? Well, William has no illusions about Andrew. He doesn't like him personally. He can see the reputational damage he would prefer to, have. a little longer, to bring up his family before he takes on the throne. I think he would prefer that Charles clears up the mess.

And that could. be the defining legacy of Charles, that he addresses this. I think there's a sense, as there is with Keir Starmer here as prime minister, that. in some ways the punchbag could be left there as the lightning conductor. No one really wants the role and he can tailor take the punches. And then the new successor. can come in with, with, with a clean slate. But I do think it is making the likelihood of.

perhaps Charles saying that his health is is not good. And the tea should perhaps stand aside for those reasons. And William coming in and William then making all the changes. that I think he would like to make and I think a needed. So, for example, a streamlining, further streamlining of the monarchy, all the titles for non-working roles removed, the Crown estates looked at so that there aren't non-working. royals like Beatrice and Eugenie on subsidized accommodation.

Perhaps. looking at removing exemptions in the freedom information. that some reforms of the royal finances, and particularly. the Duchy of Lancaster and. and Cornwall. So I think there's a lot that could be done. that would satisfy public opinion. And the question is. whether Charles is prepared to do it, or it's going to have to wait for William. And, you know, the big unknown is how ill Charles is and how long Charles will survive. And so, in some ways, the palace is kind of waiting for events.

to take their course. And then I think we'll make their decisions. You talked before, on this podcast about Andrew. famously being the Queen's favorite son and the Queen indulging him. We know that Prince Philip sort of created the job of special business. envoy for him, so he had something to do once he left the Navy, the Royal Navy. To what. extent do you think the Queen and Prince Philip actually knew? He was sort of funneling in prostitutes in quite the way that he was.

Did they know, for example, when he was going to say Thailand on. official business, that he would have 40 prostitutes. entertain him over over the weekend? I mean, I get that they might understand. Oh, he's the second son. He can be a little out of control. He wasn't faithful to to Sarah Ferguson, his wife. But did they have an understanding, do you think of the sheer. extent of his his corruption?

And frankly, I mean, I don't want to sound prudish here, but debauchery? Yes. I think they did. I mean, you know, when I studied Traitor King and saw Edward Gates fall, it was clear that he was being closely monitored by his own protection officers. And everything was reported back to the palace and, noted, and so I would be very surprised if, it this went I mean, it would have gone. to the to the monarch's private secretary, but it wasn't also raised with, the Queen. And subsequently now with Charles.

And I think Charles probably would have been briefed at the same time. as the Queen. You know, the stuff of some of the stuff was appearing in the papers. Not not the 40 prostitutes in Thailand. But, you know, I do. I talk to the head of the Foreign Office. who certainly went and made representations. and presumably raised things like that with, the Palace. And again, the line was, you know, to send them away, we've had the story of a suitcase in Kazakhstan with the $5 million. again, and MI6 sent away the palace didn't want to know.

And, you know, one of the arguments is. the queen just stuck her head in the sand and just preferred not to know. But I just find that very difficult. I mean, she she ran a pretty tight ship, and she knew what was going on, and they would have been trying to head off any possible stories. that might have appeared in the press. So, I think they were well briefed. And, you know, the hope was this stuff wouldn't come out. And indeed, if there hadn't been this release of Epstein material, they probably would have got away with it.

As I say, no one showed much interest when my book came out. It's only really this material the last few weeks, which has really been. the game changer. This seems to be suggestions to in the files that Andrew was. clearly learning all sorts of bad habits from Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, Epstein was very experienced here. He was. he was kind of tasking Andrew, you know, to see people. I mean, extraordinary stuff, inside information about the public ownership of,

Royal Bank of Scotland during the banking crisis in 2008. I mean, this was very sensitive information that that, you know, should not have been shared with outside, figures. And Mandelson was doing the same. I think the interesting thing is that if Mandelson is charged, it will be very hard not to charge Andrew. But, you know, they're already creating a narrative that, Andrew's position was not a public servant, that it. there has been too much coverage from to get a fair trial, etc..

So we're kind of being prepared for some sort of fudge that, where Andrew actually doesn't go to trial. The last thing the royal family wanted to trial. I mean, they closed down the barrel trial a few years ago. for fear of what he might say in in the dock. And that is the fear with Andrew. Is he going to say that Charles never even knew about this? And why is he being punished? And so I. have my suspicions that, either Andrew will be,

moving to, Abu Dhabi, though. it's not such an attractive prospect as it was. Or, or they will find some legal, technicality not to charge him. Well, I mean, this is just it's such a remarkable story. So, Andrew, what can you tell us also about Fergie? Sarah Ferguson, who was married to Prince Andrew. and turns out to have been a just as greedy. Yes. Well, I think that's the extraordinary thing.

You know, just how blatant she was in terms of. of trying to hustle money out of, of of Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, they were always talking about sums of 15,000. pounds, and I, my figures were 2 million. Well, we've now got, a lot of testimony showing her. asking for 20,000 150,000 at a time, but it's a great mystery. Where is she? And what does the future hold for her? I mean, she sold a house for 4 million pounds only a few months ago,

which may have been in the names of her daughters, but presumably. she has access to that money if she so wished. She's been running around the Middle East trying to catch money off various rulers. there, and I think she can still feel that she can make. some sort of comeback. And I think she might. I mean, she is the great comeback kid. The Houdini of the royal family. And, she will, I suspect, do. a big tell all interview, write a tell all book,

make lots of money, not care now. about the damage that she can do to her own daughters. She may well, in effect, turn state's evidence. and and talk about what she saw, and incriminate her ex-husband. This happiest divorced couple ever seem to have broken up. very, very quickly once, Royal Lodge was off the agenda. So, you know, it is a great unknown, but, I have no doubt that.

whatever she does, it will be in the interest of Sarah Ferguson. Do you still believe that Andrew, formerly known as Prince, is a flight risk? Yes, I do, I've talked to one of my sources about this the other day, and they said, he. So, a confidant of not being charged, that he doesn't seem to worry about it. I think the problem with with where he goes is he he can't be seen to go. somewhere where the ruler is close to the British royal family, because then that would create an embarrassing situation.

So he's got to go somewhere, where, either they, they don't have any control like China or where they can, plausibly deny the fact that they had anything to do with the escape. But, you know, I think the problems with, with Abu Dhabi in some places would be named is, you know, the royal family is close to those ruling families, and they won't want to jeopardize that relationship. And clearly, there would be a public outcry, if the public here felt that, King Charles had aided,

Andrew in his escape from justice. Well, that was a very funny cover. Of of Private high magazine, the British satirical magazine, which had a picture. of, Andrew looking at his watch and talking to a policeman. And he says to the policeman, officer, what is the time? And the officer says back to him, about 25 years. If in your scenario,

Andrew is. charged with treason or even if he's charged with, you know, misbehavior, public misconduct, what is the actual time. in jail for for something like that, were he to be found guilty? Well, misconduct in public office, has a maximum penalty. of life imprisonment, so it can be quite serious. But that has a high bar in terms of convictions.

It's very rarely used. Most of the people are low level officials, who get a couple of years. But, you know, what they do is, is actually often a sin of omission. It's it's someone who's off duty who didn't intervene. when a crime has been committed. It's not about to be basically giving sensitive information. to potential enemies and certainly, people who shouldn't receive it. There is an. argument that he will get a couple of years in an open prison.

Justice will be seen to have been served, and it won't be too bad. I mean, a bit like going to Wood Farm, probably, you know, just sit there and watch TV all day. So that's one scenario. The other is that so the other charges are brought more serious ones. like the sex trafficking, and he goes to a high security prison. and he's in isolation, and he has a pretty tough time. And in some ways, that would be a very neat solution. for the Royal family, because if he's in isolation. and behind closed doors, he can't really create much trouble.

And I think they're probably. playing the praying that that might happen to Fergie as well. But, you know, there's less of a case against Fergie. She's not a public official. She clearly hasn't been involved in sex trafficking. But I do think that there is room to investigator under the Companies. Act, under charity law. The. Revenue and Customs should be looking at her. So, she may not be off the hook either, but it's that. this this is unchartered waters, and it'll just it can go in. so many different directions depending on, who's prepared to come forward.

The evidence. It's there. And Andrew has a very, very highly paid, lawyer who has a reputation for getting his clients off. And do we have a sense of timing. in terms of if they're not going to charge? Andrew, formerly known as Prince. What a mouthful. Would he get cleared in some way? Yes. I mean, you know, he they could decide that, though.

They the, the Crown Prosecution Service could decide. that they haven't got sufficient evidence to bring a prosecution. I think there would be a bit of an uproar if that happened. They could just try one of the lower charges. They could say that they were waiting to amass more evidence. And the investigation may take some time. Kick this into long grass, and hope that events. and say overtake whatever they might happen.

I think the latter is is is the most likely. And there is no obvious timeframe. You know, there's there's clearly a lot of material. in this Epstein files that would seem to me. pretty conclusive about what he did, because we see these emails, but they may want to question a whole series of people. and March in that case, will take time. And so this could be years. And that may be the, the neat solution. that, that basically nothing happens for two years while they investigate.

Well, Andrew has promised to come back on the week. your paperback is released so we can stay on top of all. the new details that you have. And many congratulations for staying on this story. It's a time when you've faced a lot of hostility doing it. It was a hard book to report, and yet, look what you've uncovered. And then the icing on the gas. was the Epstein files, which just contains. so much more information.

that reinforces everything you were saying. Well thank you. Yes, it is gratifying. And, you know, it's exciting. You know, the sense that books, you know, I was only a small part of a collective effort with lots of people. But it is exciting that, you know, people can be held to account, a hopefully through, through good journalism and books. I love talking to Andrew Loney. We first met each other. 40 years ago, though I can hardly bear to say that out loud.

When we were both new graduates in London and Andrew was a literary agent, he was a publisher, he was an author, and his books. have increasingly gone on to have amazing influence. Anyway, if you've enjoyed the podcast or you want to leave us a comment, please do on YouTube. You can become a beast to a member of the Daily Beast community. Online. You get lots of extra content and exclusive content. And, please don't forget to join my new Substack.

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