I Know What Trump Will Do After Crushing Defeat | Inside Trump's Head

The imperative for him is to seize as much attention as he can. So the Democrats, if they win, will be trying. to impress upon the world that it is a new day. Donald Trump, for his part, will be trying. to impress upon the world that he still controls the stage. So we can pick the day. What's the day he invades Cuba? There will be a series of these kinds of Trumpian things greater than anything. Actually, I think we've imagined he will not be humbled.

The idea of humility does not exist in Donald Trump's soul. Therefore, he will do the opposite. Not retreat, but attack. Michael. Joanna. Welcome to Inside Trump's head. For anybody new joining us. We go inside the president's head because. Well, explain why. Michael, explain briefly why we do this.

Because if nothing else, in American politics matters. except what Trump is thinking at any given moment. It's a caprice. It's a fleeting thought. It's a, Well, certainly. it's certainly uninformed and unschooled. So whereas in most, most in every presidency is a function of enormous numbers. of people contributing information and analysis and thoughts.

and of and of a whole. political operation that concentrates on cause and effect. If we do this, then that happens. None of that is really operative in Trump's. White House, the last white House or this white House. Everybody around him is relegated. You know, they're they're waiting for what he says,

but they really aren't contributing anything. Certainly not very, very much. So it's all about what? What sudden flashes. of inspiration or resentment or. Payback. or desire for sudden new way to make a buck. that is, comes into his head. That's the that's the rule under which we now live.

So we go inside his head three times a week. You've written four books about Donald Trump. And I am fascinated by him as a character because as he said to you. when you went to interview him. in 2016 as the race was really hotting up, why did he want to do this? And he said, because I want to be the most famous man in the world. And miraculously, he has achieved that. He's inside everybody else's head and then some.

So I thought today, Michael, well, a we should ask people. to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This is a slightly different podcast to to the other political podcasts out there. It's we have independent owners and that's why. we can bring you this independent conversation. And so please feel free. to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And we appreciate your support.

We thought today we would do a single topic issue, which is. let's imagine we are waking up on November the 4th. What do we think we can expect? So this is the day after the day after the midterm election. The election has taken place and now we face. a potentially very new reality. We should also discuss discuss whether that's challenge.

that maybe it won't be a new reality. Maybe it's more of the same, but let's maybe we won't know. Also, I mean, it's possible that it will be so tight, especially with the Senate, that there'll be endless recounts, of course. And, and, and a very real. possibility is chaos. Chaos for days or even weeks. But let's let's just begin with assuming it's actually clean. I mean, all of the numbers, the indications.

and, the. I don't know, the hope among Democrats. is that it will be a clean sweep, it will be a blue wave. And God knows, there's certainly a rationale for that. The unpopularity of the war, ever rising prices, the mass men in the streets, Elon Musk all over the place. I, I can hardly think of a, a a positive,

a positive recommendation going into this election. And clearly the Republicans are terrified. and they are planning for their own defeat. So let's assume that we wake up the next the next day. He's certainly lost the house. And and with a strong likelihood that he loses the Senate. So what's in his head?

How does he react to that? And I want to. something that I, I mean, I've been doing this now for a very long time. Ten years of of of Donald Trump. And one of the things that is clear and confounding about him, especially as a politician, and let's just understand. politics is not just about winning, it's also about losing. And that's the nature of democracy.

If you can't lose and there's no, no democracy, all politicians live with this central fact. It's actually the central fact is that all or close to all. are going to lose at some point. Losing is part of the job, the business. Trump. truly doesn't. It's not just that he doesn't acknowledge loss, doesn't accept loss. I don't think he I don't think he understands loss.

I don't think he sees he I don't think he lives in. a world in which he can ever lose. So even when he does clearly lose. bankruptcies, lost deals, wives, wives, whatever it is never a loss. He has the ability not just to misrepresented as victory,

but actually he has the ability. to create, to create a, a a. a world, a rationale in which he wins. Not just the draw, not just us coming to terms with it, in which he is the winner and obviously, obviously in 2020. That's the the the most glaring example of this. I mean he loses. We know he loses. Everybody knows knows he loses.

The numbers are very clear that he has lost. And yet continuing on for four years until 2024. and continuing into the second administration, there is no acknowledgment, and I believe, no understanding on his part that he has lost. Interesting. You don't think that he knows at some basic level. I mean, I always think his triumph after 2020 was persuading as many people.

as he did, you know, sensible people that. that they had to say out loud. Of course you won. You won. The election was stolen. Well, the first thing I don't think he did persuade any sensible people. He may be persuaded. A bunch of nutcases who came to be his closest. coterie after after 2020. And there were a lot of people who understood. that they had to accept this.

This was just the table stakes. If you wanted to be in a a Republican. of any kind of standing, you just had to say, yeah, okay. Well, you know, maybe Joe Biden didn't win, but nobody believes that except Donald Trump. And the reason that he could cast this, this kind of spell, this kind of gas in the air, is that he actually believed it.

You you are with him. And I have been with him. And which he in which he then propounded. all of the reasons why he has won. It's always this crazy math. The numbers. Are you going? What? What is he talking about? But you see this in his eyes, this absolute conviction. Absolute enough that you realize you cannot challenge it. If you challenge it, he's going to. You will no longer be part of his reality.

Right? Well, I suppose he was certainly, auditioning for the job, but I was actually thinking of someone like Jay Clayton, who ran the Southern. District of New York, you know, a famously independent jurisdiction. and who went up for his confirmation hearing. as the director of national intelligence. Was was so brilliantly cornered by Jon Ossoff, the senator from Georgia, who said, isn't it humiliating that you can't say that Donald Trump lost in 2020?

Aren't you humiliated by that? And you would think. Jay Clayton would be a person who would have figured out an answer for that? There is no answer. There is no answer. There is only you cannot in any way hedge on this issue. Donald Trump, if your audience is Donald Trump. and of course, he is always, always an audience of one. But just just let me go back to 2020.

and following the following the election, you know, there's a couple of days in which everybody is going, and I was. I was very close to this, very much on the scene and, you know, a couple of days and people are saying, well, maybe, you know, I don't know, let's, let's see. And that was, I mean, and I mean, a couple of days, this was Tuesday. The election is held by Friday. It is absolutely, incontrovertibly clear.

the people within the Trump circle go to him, sit in the office with him and say, Mr. President, you know, there's no we we can't recover from this deficit. These numbers. It's just even if every cheek that you're mentioning is true, we still don't recover. We have we have lost the election and all. I mean, two things happen then.

Trump refused to. accept that, refuse to acknowledge it, refused to understand it. And all of these people started to. started to leave the white House. I mean, you know, if, if, if they didn't resign, they just stopped showing up. Hope Hicks, perhaps the person, one of the people closest to him. in that first, first term just stopped showing up because they knew. Everybody knew.

And then this other group started, led by Rudy. Giuliani, started to coalesce around him. But even those people and maybe there were some of them were were absolutely crazy. The MyPillow guy. But, but also their opportunists. This is it. We the the the the the key to Trump's success. is just saying just agreeing with him. But the thing the thing is. that I have never, ever and everyone.

I know around him has never seen him. break ranks in his thinking. He's never stepped out of the role. He is always absolutely convinced. So he's really the greatest actor of all time, which he may also be, which he wanted to be at one point, didn't he? Or he's just just deluded and, you know, self deluded. And I would think that that is it.

So let's go. November 4th he loses the election. He loses both houses. Let's just posit that, but he's unable. to to acknowledge. the loss. Acknowledge his loss. So what happens? Okay, but but why is he unable to acknowledge it? Is it because it's a giant humiliation?

Is it because, as you say, he's sort of sociopathic and can't see it? Yeah. He just. Yes. I think you're you're you're you're misunderstanding. There is no word. There is no loss. Donald Trump loses. If Donald were Donald Trump to lose, he would not be Donald Trump. Therefore he cannot lose. Therefore, you know, therefore, at some. at some fundamental level, he kind of gets or has learned.

that when you claim victory, it is victory. Or I'll even go a step further and somewhat. even more psychologically complicate this. In his world, it is a world of attention. The most famous person is the winner. So yes, elections numbers. what what what ever. But all of those, those, those people are concerned.

with little people things he's concerned with the with something much larger. The attention that is focused on him, the fame that he has received, that he has earned. And nobody can compete with that. in his mind in Trump. And that is sort of true. I mean, there is nobody is famous. I mean, one of the Democrats issues is they don't have anybody. that can even meet him a quarter of the way there in terms of celebrity fame.

Imposition of character of his own character on the rest of us. Yes. And so before and let's let's come back to this, but, but with a, with a degree. at this point to say that that this kind of. Donald Trump's. character, his own makeup, this whole way of seeing the world. means that actually he has he has won quite a few times, actually won.

So although we're going into this, I mean, we're positing that he. that that he's going to lose and, and many, many people and I think. perhaps most Democrats believe actually. at this point that he is is going to lose. But he might not or he might come very, very close, so close to victory that,

that it will seem like, like winning. And how does he do that? I mean, just never, ever in the people around Donald. Trump will tell you on a, on a really constant basis. Never, never, never. And they're all skeptical, by the way, never, never discount Donald Trump. And they will say and they will kind of shrug. And this is why they are with him, by the way, and they will shrug and say, well, I don't know. He has some magic.

So even though. the the first. nearly two years of this second term. have been, by any measure disastrous, alienating of voters across the spectrum. You know, yielding some of the, the worst approval ratings of any modern sitting president.

Could he yet pull something out of the bag here? I you know, I don't know. I mean, it's it's I mean, we've seen this before. How many times do we have to see it? This is a man who should never have been, who shouldn't be in the presidency. It's just crazy. It's just inconceivable that actually, he was elected. and elected twice, so. So let's just keep that in mind. That as that. No, that that the day after might always.

I believe that the day after will be a, it will reset. everything that we will be in a, in a, in a world in which, in which, which will be very problematic for Donald Trump. But on the other hand, it could be, the, the reset could, could be that we, we non Trump. people are are again once more smacked in the face by.

by this Trump reality that we that we can't comprehend. Right. And there is this Trump shame as an element of a people sort of. either refusal to tell the truth. that they want to vote for Donald Trump when they're talking to pollsters. And also just a sense of, because he's so. bullying and difficult as a character. So many people say, well, I really don't like the guy, but I do like his policies.

And amazingly, people say things like, I don't care that the gas prices are up. We must remain safe as a nation. Iran must not have a nuclear weapon. I mean, I do think he's managed to sell the war to some people. I actually, at this point have zero sense whatsoever. of what's going to happen. I feel like the last three elections I've completely called wrong. I've no sense. I can't tell how liberal the bubble is that I live in. I mean, it's pretty liberal, but I'm trying to.

You know, all my social media is set to allow lots of right wing things so. I can try and get a balance, but I find it really difficult to know at this point. Well, in think of this, I think it's a good thing. You know, you're applying logic to this. Donald Trump has convinced people of certain things, even if we feel these are reprehensible things. Nevertheless, he might have convinced them, the more the war being an example, but.

I, I'd argue that it is actually something beyond that. He's really not convincing anyone. What he is doing is imposing himself on people. And this is part of the attention thing of creating. a world in which people can't are kind of resigned to Donald Trump. Can't imagine a world without Donald Trump come to accept Donald Trump. just because he is the most famous man in the world, if somehow he sees. us, snatches victory from defeat on November 3rd,

I'd argue that that would be the reason Donald Trump is, is just. just has created a vacuum in which no one else exists. Right? And it's almost an inevitability. So if it's bad, what does he do? I think the thing that I mean, many people are concerned about is, okay, he doesn't accept defeat as he didn't in 2020. and then proceeds to try to do something about it. So,

you know, and clearly, that's. one of the things that can happen in, after November 3rd, you know, and there's a, you know, a lot of scenarios going on here. You know, this, this scenario of, of. of getting Mike Johnson hapless, hopeless, suckered, sad to see Mike Johnson. not to certify the,

the winners in the House of Representatives. Right. Not not to give them their congressional seats. I think on the at the beginning of January, there's, Mike Johnson's. the protocol is that he welcomes in or his clerk. welcomes in and gives each new congressional member their seat. Yeah. It's actually technically the clerk that does this. So Mike Johnson and the the clerk. whose name now escapes me, but who is a seems to be a.

a diligent, bureaucratic kind of person, would probably have to be replaced. So Mike Johnson would have to find a lackey to do his bidding. I mean, that's a that's a scenario that some people have offered. And, I think what's wrong with the scenario is that. it would mean I think this would be the 120th Congress. So there would not be a 120th Congress.

So all of the Republicans who actually, actually would, would have to vote for to sustain Mike Johnson would not have jobs. So what I mean, they are all yes, a devoted to to Donald Trump. But more than that, even they're devoted to their own jobs. I mean, well, what they do and they don't get a salary, they don't get. they don't get off the space that that would be.

So that seems far fetched to me. But right now, at one point, this, protocol was suggested to Nancy Pelosi, and she turned it down when she was speaker of the House, it was suggested. she didn't welcoming and new Republican congresspeople, but she nixed that idea. Right. So it's not the first time that it's been thought about, is my right? Yeah. I mean, Nancy Pelosi has seems a far cry from Mike Johnson. Oh for sure. But just in terms of it being a channel that someone could use.

to stop a new Congress forming, that's all right. But and the other thing that he does is, is, is it's just chaos. Chaos is Donald Trump's friend. And and that's really chaos comes. will be a question of how close this is. I think the race is going to be so. determinative. That is to say, the, the, the Democratic vote.

is going to be so great that, that there's not going to be a lot of room for Kay. I mean, it's just going to be binary black and white. But if it isn't and remember, there's all this money. the Republicans have, have, have, have marshaled they're going there now. doing their, you know, they're turning on the culture war stuff. So who knows in the in the end. And remember we're in a polarized nation.

It comes down. It is everything. It is always at least in these last, last decades very close. So if it is close, that's the area in which case gets the grow. Who will be with Trump when he's absorbing the results? Paint the scene for me. Is he lying in bed strewn with greasy hamburger wrappers? Does he have his empty ice cream cartons?

You know, crushed at the bottom of the bed is Natalie Harp flitting around, giving him lovely MAGA love notes. Is he sitting there in in the Oval? Where does he watch this stuff? And it is Susie Wiles there. Is Stephen Miller there. What do you think will actually. paint me a scene of how this information is going down? I mean, I like the scene of him with the greasy hamburgers, but it is. it is actually will be relatively professional.

I mean, he may be. he'll be upstairs in the residence for some of this, but, and then people will be coming back and forth giving him, giving him, updates, and he might come down. That's not I mean, I would imagine. that he will come down once, do a pass through, have a couple of conversations, then he will go back up and in. and he will be with several people, in, in the residence.

And they will be they will be waiting upon information and. but there may be there will be a couple of hamburger trays there. Yes. And will the family be around? I mean, we doubt that Melania will be there. I mean, she made it very clear in her. documentary was she wasn't there for the 2024 results. She was like, I'll write it on the news. I'll watch it on news. No, no, there won't be any, any any family there.

No. It's just it's just him. They'll be you know, I would imagine Susie Wiles will will be there. You know, there might be some congressional people there. I mean, Mike Johnston, it's not, not impossible that. that he would there, there or he would show up at some point. And then there are a set of political people. who are probably, well, actually, they're probably downstairs getting the,

monitoring all of the election feeds, and it's JD Vance there. Will JD be hovering around? Probably not, but there will be someone there I will guarantee who would be like, yes. So he's got some flunkies around him. Natalie Hart will be there leaving him little kind of notes. He's not acknowledging that he's lost because he doesn't even conceive of.

losing. It's how does he use this moment to get more attention. Right. And and it's also one of the ways he doesn't lose. is that when, when when a loss occurs, it's someone else's loss. So so he's going to if the if the loss is. is is big and if the loss is clear, then he will begin to blame us. Who is at fault? And in fact, Susie Wiles sitting with him in the residence.

as this information comes in, is herself clearly in the hot seat. Mike. Mike Johnson in the hot seat, John Thune in the Senate. If they lose the Senate. And John John Thune, he hates anyway. So clearly John Thune. But largely this will be the Republicans. who have undermined him. The Republicans who are less MAGA than they should be, have undermined him that this election was lost because,

because because he. wasn't on the ballot, because he wasn't on the ballot. So therefore he hasn't lost it all. He hasn't lost at all because it wasn't really about him. Will he also I'm sure he will, I guess, call out those Republicans. who purposefully distance themselves from him, took his name off their websites,

didn't want him to come to their states, got caught on hot. mics like Ken Paxton, the Republican candidate that Trump put in. to Texas saying, oh my goodness, that Trump had a palooza. The the midterm RNC was a disaster for us. Our numbers have gone down. I'm not allowed to do anything around my campaign. It's all run out of the white House. He will blame all those people. He he, he will. But on the other hand, if Ken Paxton actually wins.

and that is still very possible. Very, very tight race. It's a very tight race. Then that will be a victory for Trump. Then he will claim that as a victory. You see the people who win or the people I pick, it's these other people who are, you know, who are terrible candidates. and who don't represent me and, and, and who have to be purged from the party.

The party has to be purged, and it has to be everyone in. it has to be replaced with a with with with Akin. Paxton purse. I can't even begin. I mean, I mean, I'm not sure there are many Ken Paxton people are there? I mean, Ken Paxton is a bit like Trump is one of a kind. Yeah. I can say yes. I think the the point would be everybody in the party has to be. absolutely abject, subservient and on their belly.

in front of Donald Trump, no matter no matter. their incompetence and corruption. So I guess the worst thing that could happen for everybody is. if the results are close. Everything starts being challenged in courts. There are endless recounts. The confusion that Donald Trump has managed to sow over. the American election process will take root even more,

and we could be in a state of chaos for several months, probably less than several months, but certainly for, for, you know, a good, you know, 60 days. Yeah. So several months. Yeah. Well, a couple of months. Yes, a couple of months. Right. And, Yeah. No, I mean, I a close. election is going to be a disaster. So we don't often talk about the Democrats on the podcast.

because we're so fixed around what's going on with Donald Trump and his acolytes. And the chaos that is often accompanying them are. But if you are a Democrat looking. to lead the party in 2028, how do you play this? I think it's really a question of of the day after is a new reality. And and if it's a very if it's a loss,

God knows if it's a close, close election. That's also a different sort of variable. And if it's a sweep, yet another, another kind of reality. And, and so who adapts to that best. I mean, we, we we just don't we just have no idea yet. But each of those things will be will suggest. a different trajectory to 2028.

So in 2020, it was sufficiently close that it took. several days for Joe Biden's eventual victory to be announced. There was then the slow build. up to January the 6th, when, of course, there was the storming of the capital. Then, of course, there was the whole investigation into it. People were jailed for it. Then, of course, Trump miraculously, you know, in an incredible,

as he's always saying, no one's ever seen anything like it. And he's right comes back in 2024, the J6. rioters are pardoned. Do you think Trump will have learned from that process. to try and maneuver things faster? I mean, is there a world in which there is, you know, some of the more. MAGA nuts or indeed the same J6 rioters.

react much more quickly to the results of the midterms? I mean, I guess what I'm asking is, do you see the possibility of real violence again? I don't. I mean, but that's that's that's because you live in the Hamptons. That's awesome. And I am. Yes, perhaps. And because temperamentally, I still believe this. This stuff gets worked out somehow, in an orderly way.

You know, and in fact, you know, having been on the, you know, on hand for, for 20, 20, all of this stuff happened all of the, the, the, the attacks on the, on the, on the Capitol all January 6th, all of the, the Rudy Giuliani led lawsuits. None of this. And it's a it's a kind of it's a kind of,

misinterpretation of history. that the Democrats are favor. none of this at any point ever had a. a scintilla of a chance of changing the outcome of the election. This was sideshow stuff. This was Donald Trump's stuff. This is Donald Trump, as you know, just his his just bid for more attention.

Keep me in the news. Which ultimately got him elected president again. So. So yes it did have have an effect but it doesn't have an effect. on the actual on the actual process. And I don't think it will have that effect either. And in fact, you know it wasn't that it wasn't particularly confusing. So by Tuesday night, yes. It was still close. It was going into the, going into the morning.

But by by, in fact, Thursday, it was absolutely clear. there was no question that was the election was was was clear by then. It was won by by Joe Biden. No doubts. And then Trump started his acting out. So that's the question. Does he does he do that again? And the answer is yes. I mean, the answer, he will understand that. what he has to do on the day after his,

the imperative for him. is to seize as much attention as he can. so the Democrats, if they win, will be obviously, celebrating, obvious, obviously trying to. impress upon the world that it is a new day. Donald Trump, for his part, will be trying to impress upon the world. that he still controls the stage, that it doesn't make any difference.

They may say they want and they may act like they've. they've won, and maybe they've technically have won. But the reality is it is still Donald Trump's world, and he will do everything possible to make that case, and he will do everything possible to make that case the day after. and then the day after that, so we can pick the day. What's the day he invades Cuba? What's the day there will be a series of these kinds.

of Trumpian things greater than, you know, greater than anything we've seen. Greater than anything. Actually, I think we've imagined Donald Trump. will not will not go willingly. He will not be humbled. And I think that's that goes back to this idea that he never loses. The idea of humility does not exist in Donald Trump's soul. Therefore,

therefore, he he. he will do the opposite, not retreat, but attack. So instead of going into a lame duck period, even if he loses the house. and even if he loses the Senate, you think he will charge on regardless. So Cuba, what else do you think he might do? Well, and the other thing, remember, if if he. then the Democrats, whoever controls Congress becomes his enemy.

So what the where does Donald Trump flourish best when he has an enemy? Right. Conflict? What is the nature of the tension conflict. So this kind of feeds it up. And the Democrats, of course. And and I imagine that, that that fairly soon we will start to see this. and we will have to start to talk about, about this, that the Democrats, well, at least if they win, they will try to pursue Donald Trump.

And, and I say now, as I will say then, and how well has that worked out for them in the past? Well, and as you say, he thrives on conflict. He wants enemies, he provokes enemies, he creates enemies. And everybody hates him. His own people around him hate him. I mean, the people that work with him, although, you know, part of the MAGA base still loves him. Yeah, well, people who don't know him love him. Anyone who doesn't does know him, hates him. So, I mean, it's not possible to be in the company of this man.

and not develop a real, real, you know, just a visceral. fury when it comes to Donald Trump. Well, Michael, we've got some exactly two weeks until the midterms. It's 14 days away tonight. We're actually performing on stage live at the Terra Grand Ballroom in LA.

No tickets left. So we are not really here. We are really there. We're here. And there were everywhere. We're like Donald Trump, we're like Donald Trump. We're everywhere tonight, Michael. And in two weeks, obviously, we'll be live in our studio as the results come in. We don't know whether or not there'll be chaos. We don't know who will win. Nobody knows. I mean, that's the excitement of of an election. It's the excitement of democracy. And it's actually one of the things that Donald Trump has brought to. democracy is a new sense of of high stakes.

And so we will take you through on election night live as we know it. You'll know it, and we won't be. You can go to CNN for the numbers, but come to us. for what's in Donald Trump's head as a downloads. We'll be live on YouTube. We should make it clear we're not live on every platform. that we're on, but we'll be live on YouTube. And yeah, we'll be giving you the psychological insight into. what's happening at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Amid the hamburger wrappers. and the Twix papers and everything else that he likes to eat. And Natalie harp by his side. and Natalie harp by his side, and his wife Melania. Well, not unlikely, not by his side ness. She's looking for content for her TV show, and she might not want. content of her husband losing. because she knows he's a loser or she might want it.

That's true. She might. She might want content of her husband losing. It's clear to everybody, that this is an election like few others. So our live stream will be the day of the election. We're going to start at 9:00. We are going to have cocktails. We are we're going to need cocktails, and we're not going to be doing. the numbers stuff. We're not CNN, we're going to be live on YouTube, and you're going to be rattling around inside. Trump's head telling us what you can see in there.

9:00 geez, my bedtime. Not on election night. It's not. big thanks to our. production team Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passa, Heather Pesaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many BBC tier members now. There are two many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.