I Know What They Really Say about Stephen Miller | The Daily Beast Podcast

Stephen Miller is one of the most despised people in Washington. Now, there are a lot of rumors. that circulate about him that, you know, he sleeps hanging upside down. like a vampire bat and spent his childhood. pulling the legs off of small insects. I've talked to. people who worked with Stephen Miller every day in the Trump administration, and one person, cabinet level said to me, he's the biggest asshole I've ever met. Hakeem Jeffries, the incoming speaker of the assault, said, I'm not going to work with Stephen Miller. They're Democrats and Republicans who don't like Stephen Miller.

I think Stephen Miller is going to have a damn hard time getting stuff done, and he's going to turn behind him to say, are you with me? And there's not going to be anybody there. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and today we are unpacking the last week. with David Rothkopf, and we're looking forward to the week ahead. So we're going to be talking about the potential impeachment, the future of JD Vance, and what is happening with the CEO.

and founder of Nvidia having an affair with a Chinese spy. And Donald Trump said he was fine with it. It's all very odd because he keeps saying. that it's between us and China in the AI race. And what do we have here? We have, well, we have conspiracy and intrigue, and we have David Rothkopf to help us walk through it. David, welcome to the Daily Beast podcast.

David Rothkopf, Joanna cold. What a great week it is. What a great week. You predicted a blue tsunami last week and you were right. It happens once in a blue moon, but I think, I think it, you know, if anything, I underestimated. because I thought it would be 53, 54 in the Senate. Looks like it may be 56 in the Senate because of the way. Mississippi and Alaska are trending. It sort of thought it would be 235 to 245 in the house.

And it looks like it's 259. Right. And 59. Yeah. So Democrats won big. But the other thing we couldn't have predicted was. how many sort of exciting new voices. that, you know, nobody expected any Andrews of South Carolina. Nobody expected Mississippi. Nobody expected Gina in Texas.

Nobody expected every Texas seat would go blue. Every North Carolina seat would go blue. The win of Keisha Lance Bottoms in Georgia. How fantastic. How moving her story of going by. There is a little six year old wondering what it was like in the building. Oh my God. And Abdul said Jackson and Maine. and Turek and in Iowa. Oh my God. It was just there were a lot of surprises. There were a lot of surprises.

And we're going to get into some of them, and not least Donald Trump's reaction. If you're joining us, I'm Joanna Coles, chief content officer of The Daily Beast. David Rothkopf is one of our favorite contributors. He's also a former Clinton. I worked in the Commerce Department for Bill Clinton, and now he runs the. We should point out the ironically titled Deep. State Radio Network, which I highly recommend. And he writes a brilliant column for us,

were as many times a week as we can persuade him to write for us. But, David, let's get into the Susie Wiles of it. all, the Stephen Miller of it all, that Donald Trump of it all. And then I guess we should do a drive by the Dems. But we should think about. we should think about what's left for this last two months. before the Democrats gets worn in in January and Congress changes. David Rothkopf, what are you hearing about Stephen Miller? Well, Stephen Miller is one of the most despised people in Washington.

You know, there are a lot of rumors. that circulate about him that, you know, he sleeps hanging upside down. like a vampire bat and spent his childhood. pulling the legs off of small insects. But, you know, seriously, I've talked to people who worked. with Stephen Miller every day in the Trump administration, and one person, cabinet level said to me, he's the biggest asshole I've ever met. So how does that ogre for the next two years? With a new Congress sworn in in January?

Well, first of all, the Congress. typically deals with the white House through the chief of staff. And Hakeem Jeffries, the incoming. speaker of the House, said, I'm not going to work with Stephen Miller. There are a lot of people that aren't going to work with Stephen Miller. They're Democrats and Republicans who don't like Stephen Miller. I think Stephen Miller is going to have a damn hard time getting stuff done. And, you know, his main thing is lashing out. Okay. We're going to we are the storm, he said at the Charlie Kirk funeral.

And I think he wants to be the storm, but I think a lot of people are, you know, he's going to turn behind him to say, you know, are you with me? And there's not going to be anybody there. Stephen Miller is not just incredibly unpopular, but he's seen as the architect. of a policy that Trump himself said over the weekend. may have been the reason he lost, which is the immigration policies. I mean, Trump said maybe our policies were too strong.

Maybe I should work with the Democrats to roll it back. Complete contradiction to putting Stephen Miller in there. You know, I mean, he met before the election with Jared Kushner. He is sort of known for reaching out to people, and he said he's not working with him. The people I talked to in this administration, I wrote a book about all the people in the last Trump administration. They hated him. One of them, who was a very senior person who cabinet level person, said, he's the biggest asshole I ever met.

And you know, that doesn't bode well for. Trump and several levels. One. You know, this job has been called deputy president. When the president's sort of out of it, it's shadow president. means that the second most powerful person in the world. is a guy that many people think sleeps, hanging upside down like a bat. And, you know, it's.

that is childhood pulling the legs off of small insects, a creature of the night. He seems very much a creature of the night, doesn't it? Definitely. And not one. But but also, you know, Trump's. going to have a problem because there will be. leaks about everything he does from within his own white House. And you know how I know? Because the very first thing Stephen Miller did. was he said, anybody who leaks, we're going to prosecute.

I mean, he's terrified of it. And he immediately said, you know, we're going to we're going to go after people who do that. And so there'll be leaks. I personally, I know you've you've. some of your other colleagues, but he would be out immediately. I didn't. But but but I do think. he won't survive 2027 in the job. You don't think he'll survive 2027? So you're giving him less than a year? Yes. I just because he will piss too many people off.

He's the point person with the Congress. Trump will realize that whatever remains of reputation. or relevance for him hangs by the threat of Stephen Miller. But isn't that why? Isn't that why he's put him in? David Trump is always best with conflict. We know that he loves the idea of. On the one hand, he's saying, yes, I'm going to work with the Democrats. On the other. He brings in Stephen Miller.

Well, yes and no. He does. He tends to he tends to revert to conflict. But something's different here. And this is the thing that watching him this weekend was so clear. He has acted. Did you know that you. you literally licked your lips when you said that you literally looked. You licked your lip because it's so delicious. It's what you're saying, I think. Well, it is, it is, and I did. But here's the thing.

Trump's not as powerful as he was. Trump's power was deluded. It's one thing to be a tough guy when people think. that there are negative consequences, but that's not where Trump is anymore. And look what happened over the weekend. You had Republicans saying, oh, we need to look into corruption. People like Ron Johnson, senator for Wisconsin, who is like a Trump soldier. Yes, sir. I'll do whatever you say. We need to look into corruption because there's some new stories.

bubbling up about corruption at HHS, but also other corruption stories. You had a other people turning against Trump. or turning against JD Vance or JD Vance turning against Trump, or, you know, just wherever you looked, people were distancing themselves. So it's just not going to be the same. If Trump the tough guy, if people go, okay, bring it, buddy. You don't have the power.

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or click the link in the episode description. That's incognito.com/beast. Well, let's talk about. that corruption accusation in the Health and Human Services department. brought by Kali Means, who recently left and went on Joe Rogan last week. and in an extraordinary interview actually basically labeled, accused,

leveled, basically leveled accusations. at Susie Wiles and said you cannot get anything done. and there's some kind of money behind it coming for the Republican Party. There has to be some financial quid pro quo for any kind of policy. I don't know how naive Kali means is or what. he thought he was going to get done there, but the accusations were pretty damning. Susie Wiles then said that she was going to sue him.

He then counter, counter. I guess, replied or he just replied. We don't need the counter there. Okay, I'm going to take that out. He just replied on Twitter saying, you know what, please keep all all your records. Because if this ends up in court, bring it. So it was very, I mean, I guess it was the sort of high emotions after such a loss, but it was a real insight into how policy is made.

Not not that we even need insight that this is a very corrupt institution. or a very corrupt government right now. But it was it felt like an insight into how stuff gets done. Well, the thing that makes it different. from the accusations that it's pay for play and pardons, or the accusation. that foreign governments are paying him to get their way, or the accusation that his kids are making money off of this, or Jared Kushner is making money off of this,

or there was a story in the New York Times and op ed in the New York Times, the detailed how the lot mix are doing and the white cops are doing. So the thing that makes it different from every single one of the other. accusations of corruption is that the call is coming from inside the house. You know that you have got Republicans now saying this and that's what's different. You see it everywhere. You know Randy fine who's one of these right wing nutjob congressmen. started saying, well JD Vance will never be the president.

because JD Vance has struck said Israel is the reason that Trump was. because JD Vance wrote, you know, this post. in which he said, well, Trump lost because people thought, you know, they didn't like the war and they didn't like the position on Israel. And so, you know, and there's this whole thing is JD Vance in this JD Vance out. And Trump, when he was asked about it in TV this weekend, he wouldn't. you know, he wouldn't get behind anybody. Certainly not giving him the vote of support.

You would think a vice president would get. So and it can only get worse. Right. Because you know, the Republicans, don't feel this guy has any more juice. And he doesn't, you know, I mean, I think one of the things that we don't fully appreciate. was how much of what Trump got done in the first two years. was due to the fact that the Senate and the House. just sat down on their hands.

and said, we're not going to do oversight. We are not going to remind him he doesn't have the power of the purse. We are not going to do anything to slow him down. And that gave him, like the green light to go out and spend money. that he didn't get allocated and act and, you know, pass, you know, laws or for example, implement tariffs in a way that was illegal. Any other Congress would have fought back. And now he's got a Congress that's going to fight back.

And I think, you know, if people know this intellectually today, but they're going to have to start living with the reality. And every single dose of that. reality is going to weaken Donald Trump. Yeah, I mean, he's really been running it as a government of one, hasn't he? And now he can't do that anymore. Yeah, he's he's been acting like a king. Right. And he is just not going to be able to do that.

And he's going to get challenged on a lot of things. And the Democrats have a very clear, you know, set of issues that they're going to challenge him on. And, you know, I get the impression from talking to people on the Hill. that they understand that the goal needs to be send up simple bills. The very clear message, get the Republicans on the record on these things. And if Trump vetoes it, get Trump on the record. and then try to override the veto and things like,

a c a subsidies. because 10 or 20 million people are about to lose their health care. because of the way the big Ugly Bill was written, and they're going to but pass a simple bill, say, are you for people getting kicked off health care. or are you get it, send it to Trump or you for it or you against it. Communicate about it. Do the same thing with the Iran war, the same thing with the tariffs. The same thing with the ballroom,

you know, make it very narrow and specific. And then there's a whole bunch of other folks in the Democratic Party. which can actually walk and chew gum at the same time. That'll be running investigations into HHS or running investigations. into pay for play pardons or running investigations. into the contracts that Don Jr whatever getting. And you know, just to add to this welter, one other thing that seems likely to happen this week. is that there is a Republican led effort to kick out Pete.

Right. This is Congressman Thomas Massie who got primaried by. Donald Trump is out in January but is using what time left. He has to whip up support for a an impeachment against Pete. Right. But there are other Republicans who are saying. that they're going to step up and do this then. And so, you know, this is just. a whole new world for Donald Trump. You know, even in his first term, he didn't he didn't.

deal with this much stuff. And he wasn't as big an outlaw. You know, I mean, the first term, there was always somebody saying, you know, you can't do that. That's against the law. Well, that hasn't happened for the past two years. And and all of a sudden it's it's going to happen. And you know, he doesn't he's not getting good advice. Did you see Todd Blanche this weekend. On the weekend shows and and and and you know somebody. you know he said was responding to the thought that you know people should lawyer. up that Robert Garcia said in the press release like shouldn't I.

He said well every single person in this administration has a lawyer and that's me. It's like, you know, about the Constitution. It's like, well, actually, no, for the Constitution, you represent the American people. You're not the lawyer for the people in the administration. But he was I mean, he lost it on a couple of interviews over this weekend. because he knows he's under siege. And today, just literally as we were going on the air, I think the fourth. senior person quit DOJ, the head of the civil division,

and you've had that of the civil rights edition of Division, and you've had the head of the National Security Division. There is an exodus at the Department of Justice. because these people are lawyers and they know what's about to happen. So I don't normally recommend Joe Rogan, but I do recommend that interview. with Carly Means, because I stumbled on it by accident and couldn't stop watching. It was like a car crash. In terms of you saying.

the voices are coming from or the calls are coming from within the white House. It was an absolute coruscating indictment of the corruption going on right now. And as you say, Todd Blanche running around saying that he'll be defending all the cabinet. secretaries, all the people. that the Democrats are suggesting they're going to investigate. It's sort of fascinating. What do you think Susie Wiles is going to do, too? Because Donald Trump was yelling at her last week. She had, apparently, according to Michael Wolff, offered to leave the week before.

He was like, no, no, no, stay. Then when the extent of the damage and the extent of the loss came in, Trump had to have obviously someone to blame. Screaming at Susie Wiles. She stalked off. Do you think she now, poses a danger to Donald Trump? I don't think she poses a danger to Donald Trump, so long as she's on the Trump payroll.

And one of the things that Trump said when he announced her departure. was that she was moving over to the Trump political operation. Now, what is the operation like? You know, he's not running for anything else. What that means, though, is that, you know, they're going to pay her some consulting fees or something. To, you know, be part of a group of advisers. Right. And, and I, you know, to me, as soon as I heard that, I thought,

hush money, you know, they're going to try to figure out a way to keep her quiet. And, you know, I mean, you know, maybe she will. But again, you know, we saw this in Watergate. We see this, you know, in every movie Martin Scorsese ever made. Right? You go after one person, you squeeze them, they start to squeal, they start to turn it. That's how every. You know, that's how the mafia gets turned over by the FBI.

And all it's going to take is one of these things. to say, oh, there's corruption in the white House, and this person and this person is guilty, and you're going to end up with that person or the other person. saying, well, I better talk to save my ass and and so forth. Now, some of that's not going to happen. Well, Todd blanches in the DOJ, the investigations will happen. The prosecutions may wait two years.

But on the other hand, you know, there's a story out there this weekend. that Stephen Miller is real nervous. because he doesn't think Trump can protect him again. Again past couple of days. Trump's like, I'm going to give everybody pardons. But but Stephen Miller knows. he could get prosecuted by states for some of what happened. And and and so a lot of these people are super nervous. that there are jurisdictions and the majority of attorney generals.

in the United States right now as of Tuesday for Democrats. So, David, does a presidential pardon not protects you against. lawsuits from states does not. So what is the point? What is the point of a presidential pardon. that protects you against federal prosecution? Only federal, state or local it does not protect. And one of the big things that happened on Tuesday that people. didn't pay as much attention to is majority.

of governors are now Democrats, the majority of attorney generals. now Democrats. And that gives a huge advantage in laying the stage for 2028. There's even, you know, there's even a little interesting story in so I can throw it in an apprentice. But have you heard about the Electoral Compact? This, this there is this effort, but a bunch of smart people figured out. that if states represented.

more than 270 electoral votes, all agreed. that they would give their votes to whoever won the popular election. henceforth, without a constitutional change. The electoral the, the the result of the election will go to the winner of the popular vote, which works better for Democrats in the long run. And over this weekend, just this weekend, Josh Shapiro, the eager to be seen as a presidential candidate.

governor of Pennsylvania, said I think that's an interesting idea. We need to look into that, and there are now enough states to do it. So there could be all sorts of knock on effects from what happened on Tuesday. So that means that Hillary Clinton would have won in 2016, that Donald Trump would still have won in 2024. Yes, Hillary Clinton would have won. And you want to know something? It's good that you bring that up because I you know, I've heard so many people.

for the past six months say, well, a woman cannot win because Kamala didn't win. And, you know, my reaction to that is what baloney. Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. Kamala Harris got more votes than almost all but one presidential candidate ever. All but two presidential candidates, ever. But now look at the now look at the results from Tuesday. They're going to be 157 women in the House and in the Senate. Over a hundred Democratic women,

first woman governor, first black woman governor. ever in Georgia, in in Georgia, you know, all sorts of firsts. Well, first Hispanic woman in Texas, first Native American woman in New Mexico, first governor of Texas, first Native American senator. who's a woman from Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan, Peggy Flanagan. And it's just like things have changed. Another big loser in the election, as far as I'm concerned,

is conventional wisdom, the conventional wisdom that says. in order to run in a red state, you have to dress up in red. You have to pretend you're MAGA light. Well, that's not what Abdullah well, he's a purple state. But Abdullah, I did it's not what any Andrews did. I mean, I don't think people fully appreciate what a spitfire Andy Andrews. is. It's not what John Assaf did. It's not what James Talarico did. James Talarico.

talked about religious values and so forth, but he also said he's going after corruption. He's going after this very tough agenda. And it's not what happened in Mississippi. Angie Nixon, almost one in Florida. with a super strong message and no support from the party. So all the people who say this is how it is. can't be a woman at first. We have the first openly gay male member of the Senate, Chris Pappas in in New Hampshire.

That's right. But it's fascinating. Right. Barrier after barrier of barrier fell down and with it conventional wisdom. Well and it's generational change to right David. which and generational change in terms of voters to. it is generational change. As we've said here, this was coming. I remember I mentioned that in 2028, the the majority of eligible voters will be born since 1990.

Okay. Which is really profound. But I heard a more upsetting statistic. I'm glad you're sitting down because this one. this no, this no, this one is hard okay. The like the election that happened last Tuesday. was the last election in which. Gen Z voters will be the youngest voters, because in the next election, there will be Generation Alpha voters. Wow. Participating. Wow. That's a that's yeah, that's a little sobering.

Is I think the word that we're looking for so many threads to pull on this. tapestry, David. But let's just go back to JD Vance. So JD Vance has been looking well I think I think we must. I think we must because I think some of the blame is to be laid at his door to. Right. He's come out and very quickly distanced himself from any fault. He is saying, oh, it's all to do with the war. But it's not all to do with the war, is it? It's it's all to do with all sorts of things. It's.

not just the price of gas, it's the fact that people don't like Donald Trump. They don't like the cabinet ministers around him. They don't like the war, for sure, but they don't like ice. They don't like the slush fund. They don't like the corruption. There are so many things that this, this voting population don't like about the current administration. Rip soon, soon to be gone by December. Does JD stand a. chance of extricating himself from this, or is he forever done?

If you were JD Vance, would you resign at this point? Would you just give up? Would you think, oh Lordy, I need to write another book? What? What's what? What do you think is going on? He he won't he won't resign because. he's as close to the Oval Office as he is ever going to get. But just like Trump was a big loser and Republicans in Congress. were big losers and conventional wisdom was a big loser. JD Vance was a big loser. JD Vance.

the scene first as supporting. some of the worst stuff of the Republican Party. Notably Vivek Vivek. ad ad. Right. And he was seen as a defender of that. So that puts him in a basket of people. I mean, we're never seeing Vivek again. Right. He's over. And, and I think he's tainted by that. JD was already tainted by the fact that he's super close to Peter. Thiel, who helped put him in place. And,

you know, I had a real bad election. to the were 44 ballot measures about your favorite subject, data centers and 43 times the public said no. You know, there was a major, major rejection. and at least an expression of skepticism about that. And I know we have other stories that compound that, but so JD Vance has got a problem there.

JD Vance is also now seen as disloyal. He started leaking stories when the Iran war started going bad, saying I was the one against it. But then he put this social media post out after the election saying, you know, you know, here. are the reasons the president did badly, like trying to distance himself. And so now you've got. a bunch of Republicans going out there saying, oh, it can't be JD Vance. I would add one other thing, which is, you know, JD Vance, I think, saw his opportunity.

by writing on the, turning point bandwagon, that Charlie. Kirk bandwagon of, white Christian nationalism. But there were some real blows struck to that as a formula. One of them is that the Democrats have had started to reopen, you know, you know, religion, you know, embrace it. Right. Whether it's Talarico or whether it's Hamilton and Kansas,

or, you know, we also Reverend Rafael Warnock and Georgia, etc., etc. but secondly, for example, in Texas, which they depend on, I mean, the Republicans are freaking because they need those electoral votes. in Texas and every single state. wide position went to the Democrats. But the governor, Gina Hinojosa, said her first job is going to be to undo. Republican voucher programs in education, which are deeply despised in the state,

but also the undo the efforts to sort of, you know, ad the Bible around the state. And this is an element of the white Christian nationalist message. We need to be more Christian nation, and it's going to be starting to be put down by the Democrats. So JD Vance is wrong and that is wrong on Wyoming Swamy. He's running. in within the eyes of the Republican Party and distancing himself from Trump.

He is associated with Trump, who was delivered a resounding defeat. And so I think JD Vance has done. I mean, I guess if he had to say there was a winner in the Republican Party, that coming out of this whole thing, it may be Marco Rubio. Well, turning point also lost in Arizona, didn't they? They're based in Arizona. They had candidates there and their candidates did really badly. They still have groups in high schools, but it feels like Turning. Point USA never recovered from Charlie Kirk's death.

Erica Kirk hasn't been able to lead it into the future. in quite the way that perhaps Charlie Kirk could have done. It now feels less and less relevant, although I guess it's still embedding its ideas in high schools. Well, I mean, it's going to try, you know, people are going to try, but but but I have to say, you know, within the Republican Party right now. saying I'm super Trumpy or I'm super white, Christian nationalist. is not going to open a lot of doors for you.

People are going to say, we need to be different in some way. because this was such a sweeping, crushing repudiation. of Trump and MAGA and and people like Charlie Kirk and, and, and this whole hard shift to the right in this country. No. You know, the the job remains. Democrats have to deliver. And it's going to be hard with Trump remaining as president. But it was I agree with you in my.

my fundamental interpretation here is it was generational. Something is changing in American politics. And that's why I see this election as. as having the possibility of being not just a landslide or a mandate, but it has the possibility of being a watershed, a turning point. American politics for a decade, just like electing Trump was. So, David, you were the editor of Foreign Policy. How does this play internationally?

I think it plays in a few ways. You know, I mean, you saw the Russians immediately respond, well, we hope to continue. working with Donald Trump because they know the clock is ticking. You know, they're like, the only way we're going to get the big deal is, you know, Jared Kushner was quoted a couple of days ago saying, well, we need a deal that, you know, gives Putin some of what he wants. And Trump was quoted over the weekend as saying, well, you know, Ukraine may be a slightly different shape. And, you know, we are pushing into there going to be some meetings, I think, in.

Abu Dhabi shortly, where you're going to have the Russians. and the Ukrainians and the US and Europeans talking about a settlement. But Trump is you know, he's clearly on the Russian side. Well, the Russians know that time is ticking there. The Chinese took a kind of more moderate view, which is what we hope to continue good relations. But I have to tell you, the Chinese, because I've had some conversations. in the past week, the Chinese are like, what does this mean? You know, what does this mean for our relationship?

Because they know that the Democrats may be harder to deal with, than the Republicans. on a whole host of issues, on tech issues and on trade issues and so forth. And so they're worried about that. I think in, in, in, in Europe and, you know, other other, you know, allied parts of the world, you know, there is some hope that this, will return us. to more normal relationship with our alliances.

But I can tell you, I have a friend who met with Mark Carney. a couple of days ago, and he said, this is good news for Canada. And Mark Carney's response to that was, I'm skeptical. I believe it when I see it. And so I, you know, there's a lot of that out there to Trump, you know, said shortly before or shortly after the election, I could be like, maybe I'll go become prime minister of Israel.

Israel is now going through. what's going to be an extended process 30, 45 days. And, you know, the president of Israel said to the opposition that he can try. to form a government, but there are all sorts of fragmenting going on within the opposition. Now, it's unclear whether they'll be able to do it. But Trump's already pulled back a little bit from his support from Bibi. and is sort of saying, well, I'll support anybody both, you know, I mean, it's. so it's kind of this weary game of, you know, the wheel is spinning.

Where is it going to stop? Who knows? And I think that's a lot of it. But I think for Trump, you know, the presidents, when they get. in the last two years in office, what they typically do. is they get on their plane and they fly around the world. to places where people play hail to the chief or whatever, and treat them like, you know, big deals because the US is not. The US realizes there are lame duck and so forth. Well, the problem is, I don't think there is many places.

that are going to do that for Trump, as did it, you know, would do it. in other administrations because Trump has bullied Trump, has threatened war. Trump did so much damage to global energy markets with what happened in Iran. Trump has betrayed Ukraine. Trump has betrayed NATO. What Trump did in in Venezuela violated international law. What Trump did with gunning down, you know, people in small boats. in the Caribbean and the Pacific violated international law.

Trump is still threatening to go into Cuba, Trump said again over the weekend. One of his great victories was that he's got Greenland forever. We've got Greenland. Complete bullshit, right? Complete bullshit. There was an agreement struck with Greenland in the Truman administration. that Trump essentially just reiterated, you know, and and so, you know, 75 year old agreement. But but the point is, this is pissed off the world.

And and I think foreign leaders are ready to be done with Trump, and that means he's going to have a harder time getting his phone calls, take it, and flexing his muscles and being the big deal. So I predict. time for a trip to North Korea. You know, time for a trip. Time for a trip, you know, to rekindle an old romance. where they're less they're less caught up in this stuff. So. Well, and I guess. Putin perhaps Putin would, would lay out the red carpet for himself.

Ben Putin may be coming for the G20 meeting in December. Right. Well, he was certainly invited, wasn't he? Yeah. So there is a complication, which I think you were alluding to earlier, David, in our relationship with China and to do with AI, please explain. Well, you know, over the past few days, it has become clear that the CEO of one of our most important.

AI companies, possibly one of the most important I in the world in vedere. a guy named Jenson Wang, who, incidentally, was not. seen as one of the real crazy maniac AI CEOs. Right? He was he was kind of the normie in the group, actually was having an affair, and he actually was having an affair. with a woman whose last name was also one, by the way, who is asserted was a member of Chinese intelligence.

Chinese have denied this, of course. But apparently the U.S. knew this was going on. Trump knew it was going on. Trump did not tell him to stop. Trump approved the sale of certain high end and video chips. to China in the midst of all of this, and now it's all blown up, and it's blown up in a way that the Board of Nevada has said that. they're doing a deep dive into it and Nvidia stock on Monday. I don't know who knows where to end up at the end of the day, but it fell 5%.

billions of dollars in market value lost. Jensen Wong's. daughter was going to do an event in Korea. She's the one of their communications people. And she canceled it, saying there were family issues involved. And so, you know, you've got this thing. which could be a source of tension in the US China relationship. It could be a source of another set of investigations into Trump.

and whether he managed it in the right way or whether he looked the other way. to please the Chinese. But it also comes at a fragile moment for AI, not just because of the election results we talked about, but, you know, the Chinese AI stock market up. got beat up pretty badly a few weeks ago. People have been wondering whether the AI boom. and a lot of the market is lifted by, you know, seven big tech stocks. That is maybe coming to an end.

And, you know, there is some, you know, worry. And I think it may be overstated, but there is some worry. that a problem at Nvidia could turn into a problem. for all the AI stocks at a particularly perilous moment. And so it's a really fraught issue. And Trump's response was, I like Jensen Wong. And, you know, these things happen to people, which is his response whenever a guy gets into some trouble of a sexual nature.

Yeah. So okay, the the valuation of a video at the moment as we record. this on Monday morning is still 4.3 trillion, but it is down. It's down pretty. dramatically, as you say, 5%. But, you know, if it's down 5%, then that means 430 billion divided by two. It's $215 billion. Right. And if a sneezes, does the rest of AI. catch a cold or catch flu or Covid?

I think is is what we're trying to figure out, right? Whereas Trump would say, do they get the kung flu? The intelligence services obviously had floated this to him. Why do you think Trump didn't take the Chinese element of it. more seriously? I just don't know. I don't know if he thought there was nothing at risk. and he made a carefully evaluated decision. I don't know if it was because.

he was given bad advice. I don't know if he thought, you know, these things happen. You know, I don't want to draw. direct connection, but Donald Trump's first wife's. father was in. Czech intelligence. There's a lot there's a lot of people who think that Donald Trump has, from time to time, come up close, you know, in a variety of ways to the intelligence operations.

of other countries. But to be fair, wasn't everybody in the Czech Republic at that time. are in some sort of quasi intelligence? I mean, neighbors were encouraged to snitch on neighbors. I mean, it was something that people got used to doing. Right? I don't want to relitigate all of Donald Trump's connections to Russia. or what he did on trips to Russia, or what the Russians know about him, or what his kids ties to.

Russia or Melania's ties are, or what. I mean, I mean, you know, there was a Russian in the white House last week. celebrating Melania for something she didn't do. because it suited Russian propaganda. This was her, in theory, peace deal with. or temporary, ceasefire in Alaska. It was. which was started by other people and which, you know, the the Russians. want to get credit for, for pausing their torturing of this place.

where people were driven by starvation to eating grass. And the Russians are like, oh, yeah, we stopped this. Let's give some credit to Melania and let's give some credit to us. In fact, they don't deserve any credit for that. But having said that, Trump has a pattern. where when accusations about crimes. are too close to him, he tends to dismiss the crimes. You know, when somebody is accused, you know, I mean, you know,

when somebody's accused of sexual abuse, he tends to say, oh, well, you know, you know, these things happen. And I don't know if I believe the women or etc.. And so all I'm saying in response to your question is there have been. plenty of accusations about Trump being exposed to this kind of thing. Maybe that influenced how he responded to it. We you know, we can't know for sure, but I think there's going to be. an investigation, because these are big issues. And,

and it seems like a big breach. of our system, particularly at a moment. when AI CEOs main message to the world is, trust us, we will manage this all ourselves. We've got our arms around this. And then, you know, you've got. you know, I mean, I can give you ten examples of why we shouldn't. Do you think someone will have to step down as CEO? I mean, he is the founder of Nvidia.

I don't see how he stays, actually, yes, I think he has to step down. I don't see how he survives this. Yeah. And I think if he loves the company he built, he should step down. You know, there may be a halfway measure where they say, okay, he's. going to go in and leave of absence while we are doing our investigation. But I don't think this investigation is going to come out favorably for him. since he's already acknowledged he had the affair.

And I don't think the US would have come out. particularly under Trump and said she's a spy. unless there was a lot of evidence to support them. Well, it's also it seems that there's not very much information. about the company that Alice Wang, as she, was called. There's not very much information about the company. that she was using to buy, I think. 2 billion, $4 billion worth of Nvidia chips. It then looks like she was selling them on.

Or they were. I mean, it's just a confusing picture of the company she was working with. Well, yeah. But you know, when you're in, when you're in an intelligence service, you know, and if you come back and say, well, you know, Jensen. just got back from the white House and he thinks Trump is a moron. That's good intelligence. You know, it doesn't it doesn't all have to be about getting the chips through. If if all of a sudden she was getting and Jensen Long talked to Trump all the time. And Massena is sort of the centerpiece of the US AI.

You know, it's good about AI in the United States. And so, you know, she may have learned a lot of things. that had nothing to do with the sale of chips. Oh that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. It's probably more to do with Jensen's relationship with Trump and intelligence. about Trump himself. And he's probably like Trump and intelligence. Look, she's said we need to be competitive and manufacturer. of the kind of high powered chips that are needed for AI.

Nvidia is the world leader in that. She could come and say Jensen has a bellyache. That's irrelevant. Jensen met with this person. That's relevant. Jensen thinks this or that about this person that's relevant. Jensen was Weil. They had meetings today and he's very upset. That's relevant. You know, this is you know, we're at a point where AI is a strategic. linchpin, not just of American growth, but of the growth of the whole world.

And competition over AI is like competition. over nuclear weapons or missiles were in the past. So getting any information about. what's happening in the field is relevant. And, and, and. it's why anybody who said ignore this, including Trump, is being profoundly naive. Well, it also seems un-American of Trump to, to ignore it, too, isn't it?

Well, it's on American of Trump to support Putin, to support. war crimes against Ukraine, to support more crimes in Gaza, to support. war crimes in Iran, to steal from the United States government, to use the Department of Justice to attack his opponents, to free people who attacked the Congress and say they're the real here. Trump does un-American shit all the time. That's that's who he is. He's the most un-American American.

Yes. And we should point out that that. Putin, having been labeled a humanitarian for allowing. Melania to, in theory, broker a brief ceasefire in Alaska. so people could get out something that had actually been highlighted. and started by the Pope, then immediately bombed Disney Pro, which is, what, 150 miles away from Alaska, killing.

14 people waiting at a train station. to catch a train and injuring hundreds more? I mean, a terrible a terrible attack. Children killed. So this sort of weird, PR moment for. Putin there and for Melania with her, with her two part. series coming up, gives her some content for that. The most cynical of reasons, calling Putin a humanitarian is an obscenity,

giving a white House event to help support. Putin's argument that he's in a humanitarian is a double obscenity. But it's part of what Trump is doing, what Jared is doing, what Wycoff is doing. They are the PR team for Vladimir Putin. How do you call a guy who's responsible for. 1.5 million Russian casualties, the kidnaping of tens of thousands of Ukrainian children, the deaths.

of thousands of Ukrainians, UN trampled. aggression against a democratic state simply. because they were following their democracy, threatening Europe. All of this that Trump Putin is a monster. and he deserves no credit, especially for when he takes. a brief respite from one set of atrocities. and follows it up with another set of atrocities.

And yet that's what they're doing. That's what they're doing. David, how do the Dems counteract that? Well, the Dems, I think, along with a bunch of Republicans, demand support be given to Ukraine. Possibly, you. know, investigate the Russian oil and diesel deal. You know, one of the things that happened last week that I thought. was pretty cool, that didn't really get a lot of attention.

I grew up in new Jersey, so I thought this was pretty cool. Was the governor of new Jersey, Mikey. Cheryl turned away the Russian tankers. that had diesel on because, as she said, they're sanctions. We can't accept them here. And they had to go off to sea and be turned away. So there are tools, including existing laws, that can stop Trump from doing much of what he's doing. And, you know, other ways that Democrats can, you know, express support for,

Naito and others who are standing up to Putin. It's again, the Republicans. look the other way on a lot of things Trump did that weren't legal. This Congress won't. So, David, there was an interview on 60 minutes. with Donald Trump over the weekend. At the end, the interviewer, Ross Douthat, asked him about. how he thought of himself in the afterlife if there is an afterlife.

I thought it was a slightly odd question for a serious TV. journalist to ask him, but, Trump seemed to. think that he was definitely going to heaven. Yeah. First of all, it was an odd question, but Russ Dowd has made his name. as a proponent of religion in all aspects of life. I think his last book, which came out last year, was called something. like Why Everybody Should Be Religious. So this is this is and he's a proud Catholic.

He is a proud Catholic. But this this is what he does. And Trump hemmed and hawed around the question or. I hope I get into heaven and stuff, but that had sort of pushed. And he was like, well, you're not going to get into heaven. You don't do these kind of things. You know, later on in a part of the interview that didn't get on, it was like, well, a hundred years from now when you're in purgatory trying to work this out. And it was I mean, it was a real blow to Trump. But I have to say, the whole interview was much tougher.

than we would have expected from Barry Weiss 60 minutes. Right. He was very you know, he raised the issue of corruption. in the Trump administration, which Trump sidetracked. But he raised it in a pretty tough way. He, you know, raised the issue of the election loss. And clearly, this this last thing forcing Trump. to reflect on his own life, which again showed his appetite. Remember, you know, Trump's regularly asked, what's your favorite book of the Bible?

You like the Old Testament? It's like, no, I like it all. You know, he doesn't know anything about it. Do you think he has? David, it dawned on me. Do you think Donald Trump knows what purgatory is? Well, I don't know, but. he's going to find out over the next two years, because he's going to free on Earth, which would have been a better question. Would have been a better question. And, well, I think it would have been, but I think, you know, it got us there. So that's close enough.

But, you know, the reality is I, I don't know that he does. He did say at the beginning. and he tried with, with that and say, well, you know, I'm a very religious man. and doubt it. Instead of saying, well, what about all the sex abuse and the corruption and, you know, all the horrible things you've done in your life. and the fact that you can't tell the truth instead of going to all the sins. He said, well, you forgive your enemies and he made that the whole hook. And Trump was like, well no I have to be honest. And he's like, well if you go to heaven and they ask.

you can you forgive James Comey. a moment? I mean, is that really going to happen? Okay. Or Nancy Pelosi, he said, can you forgive? And Trump was like, well, no, I think I have to be honest, I can't. They're bad people. And doubt at its point was, well, if you can't, after all. said, after all you've been given, after all you've achieved, if you can't find it in your heart to, you know, forgive them, how can you expect to be admitted and have it?

And I don't know, maybe Trump's going to think about it. You know, we're at a very strange moment in that regard. He's 80. He's seeing the most. profound intimations of his. mortality, in terms of this election result. And the guy he beat who he said was, you know, too weak. but is just slightly older than him. Joe Biden is dying. And, you know, Joe Biden over the weekend said, you know, I'm. not going to be able to promote my book because of the cancer that I've got.

And that's going to I, you know, that's going to be in the public eye. a little bit too, over the next couple of months, as people think about Biden's legacy and, and so forth. We should just point out that Biden's book, Promise Me America is out in. the middle of this month. And he put out a statement over the weekend saying, I'm. not going to be able to promote it very much, but I hope the book will. will tell the story for me, which didn't go well for him. No, I, I think he's very sick.

Everybody I know knows him, thinks he's very sick. You know, he's coming towards the end of his life. And you know, who knows. Will that make Donald Trump very introspective? Whenever Trump is confronted with being introspective, he doesn't go very deep. And he doesn't stay there very long because, frankly, you know, if you were Donald Trump and you had to reflect on who he was. and what his life has been and what he's done. and his transgressions and his crimes and his abuses and everything else, you wouldn't want to stay there either.

Oh, I thought it was, but I do. I thought it was an odd question to ask Donald Trump, though, because Donald Trump. knows he's become the most powerful person in the world, right? He's got more attention than anybody else has ever had in the history of the world. He thinks he's more powerful than God. I think he did, Joanne. But but I don't think he does today. He has been. repudiated in such a profound way. There were no silver linings for Donald Trump. You know, elections are all about spin.

And usually the day after the election, the Republicans would say, well, we won here or there, or the Democrats will say, you know, we made some progress on this point and we'll do better next time. There was none of that. No, but there was a sort of sense. You can see how Donald Trump is spinning it, that it was the war. But I would still make. the same decision again, because in the future I will be thought of. as the man who stopped America being finished by an Iranian nuke. Right? He's already spun that in his head. And he may. He may have he may have spun it.

But that argument, which he's been using now since he started this thing. very nearly a year ago, doesn't work because everybody knows it's bullshit. I know, but it may work for him because he lives in a different world. So the rest of us, maybe it works for him, but. But I don't think. that you would have gotten the Donald Trump we've gotten for the past week. saying, well, maybe I can work with the Dems or I've got to. vacillate over to Stephen Miller, or I'm firing Susie Wiles,

or I'm not backing J events or, you know, he. he is a man struggling to come to grips. with the fact that blue America, red America, the Deep South, women, men, Latinos, blacks, young people, every group except white males, every single group in America's repudiated him. And I think, you know, I, I, I.

this this this is a different world for Donald. Trump this week than it has ever been in history. I thought you could see that in the clips of him on the CBS interview. His face looked terrible. His eyes were super puffy. His eyes were like little slits. You could just see some sort of blue in there. But physically he looked beaten up. I do not envy Natalie Harp, whose job is to show him nice things,

make him feel good about the world, make him feel powerful, make him feel. And and it's just going to get harder and harder to do that job well. As Melania says in the trailer for her new series, everybody wants to be close to power. Except not Melania. Melania doesn't want to be close to power. She wants to be in her tower trying on her outfits in New York, and she's let Natalie Harp take up the position close to power.

I'm sure she's delighted. I'm sure she's the Melania's just getting her cut. She's just doing her job. She's just, you know, whatever her contract is, she's just doing it. Do you think the next two years will be everybody on the Trump. train making as much money as they possibly can? Yes. And getting as far from Trump if they can. Just like the exodus you're seeing at DOJ. I think we'll see other senior officials leave soon. I think other people will lead to leave over the next few months,

you know, and. you know it. You know, you're going to have Trump left in the white House with, you know, half man, half vampire bat and and Natalie. Harp. Well, David thinks that Stephen Miller won't last a year. What do you think right in the comments. Tell us what you think about Stephen Miller. and why on earth Donald Trump would have picked him to succeed Susie.

Wiles, who stalked out of the white House. on Thursday after Donald Trump berated her yet again. She had had enough. But of course, then there are accusations now, by means of Susie Wiles corruption. So. Right. And tell us what you think you know. We love your comments. We talk about them in the house all the time, and we love to hear what you think. And I answer as many of them as I can.

We'll be back with David next Monday. Tomorrow I'll be back with Michael Wolff for more inside Trump's head. What is going on in there? Does he know what purgatory is? Is he going to face it in real life over the next two years? So if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We're independent media and so we appreciate your support. and a big thank you to our team this morning, led by John Romero,

who was 40 over the weekend and turned up for work on his 40th birthday. So repeated thanks to John to Doctor John Gardner for his sterling work. over the weekend, predicting we are in for an even bumpier ride. as the narcissist in chief faces real opposition. and a big thanks also to Ryan Murray, Benji Wilson, Rachel Passer, Heather Pissarro and Neil Rosenhaus. See you tomorrow. So the good news is we have so many BBC tier members now.

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