I Know Exactly What Trump Will Do to Hegseth | Inside Trump's Head

Hegger's is fighting for his life inside this administration. This news conference had an audience of one. He is defending himself to his boss, Donald Trump. You know, Trump is in a position that he likes to be in, the position that gives him the most satisfaction. Maybe I will fire him. Maybe I won't fire him. Let's see. Minute to minute he doesn't know. So that's what this press conference was about. Please, please, please, Mr.

President, don't fire me. Will he be ignominiously fired? If he is fired, he'll be fired with a post. He'll know his fate when we all know his. fate. Michael. Joanna. I can't stop smiling. Still. I can't stop smiling. And we've had so many wonderful comments from our epic. 4.5 hour live feed last Tuesday.

But, well, I guess I guess that's what being a. being on the winners, the winning side gets you. Oh well I wonder. But I did get reprimanded. One of the things I love is our conversations with our viewers. and listeners. I did get reprimanded for being such a fool supporter of saying. that Ron DeSantis was a competent governor of Florida. And I found that a little gobsmacked in myself as as you know.

Okay, well, I'm here to to eat some humble pie or eat crow, as they say. I then looked to in fact, many people sent me details about, DeSantis and the $10 million fraud, some money that appeared. to get siphoned off to to his campaign, which shouldn't have done so. I am I'm I'm reassessing my point of view on Ron DeSantis, though I will say the Florida economy has been strong.

It has been strong. It's getting less strong. But it had a moment of being pretty. So you're holding on there. He's not as bad as some of them. He's not as bad as some of them. All right. So we've got a lot to get to. We've got to get to Hedges and his ridiculous press conference. he just had now. And I want you to know that if you're disruptive. and start moving around, I'm going to have security remove you. because that's what he said or that's what his people said to the press. We're going to talk about, obviously, everybody's favorite character, your favorite character and mine, Stephen Miller going to talk about Dana White.

And what was that at the white House podium yesterday? The press briefing podium. Very strange. What is going to happen to the war? Will Susie, while stay loyal and, well, Trump as a fighter? Oh, and I guess why not? Let's throw in a minute or two on 60 minutes and Trump's performance there. If you're just joining us for the first time. Michael Wolff is the Boswell to Trump's Johnson.

I think that's the right description, isn't it? I dare. say it is not remotely the right description, but, since you've probably neither read Boswell nor Johnson. Will. Will. It's a meaningless description anyway. Description, but I haven't I? I went to a screening of Long Day's Journey Into Night last night. and met one of my absolute heroines, Jessica Lange, and I'm still a little struck from it, I would say so.

So forgive me. Anyway, you've written four books on Donald Trump. That's what I'm trying to convey. for people who are joining us, as I said for the first time. I'm the chief content officer. for The Daily Beast, and thrice weekly we venture to go inside Donald Trump's. head to figure out what the hell is going on in there, because we've never seen anything like it before. So, Michael, Pete, thoughts? I mean, two interesting things.

Interesting that they that this news conference indicates. that they are taking this move by. Massie seriously. And but at the same time of course dismissing it. and but but not dismissing it enough not to take it seriously and and. and a mountain immediate news conference. to for Hargus to defend himself. But I mean because the Massie thing is, as they seek.

to point out performative, Massie is in his last days. It's still a it's still a Republican Congress. It's Massey's last licks. Which which, you know, the. the Pentagon in the white House could could have ignored this. And it would have it would have gone away on its own. On the fact that that this Congress, that this lame duck Congress is not going to impeach,

impeach the secretary of defense, they might with a new Congress. But this Congress is not going to do that. So that's that's that's number one. But number two, which may be more relevant, is. that Hagans is forget Massie in the Congress. In Congress, Hager is fighting for his life inside this administration. So again, there this news conference had an audience of one.

He is defending himself to his boss, Donald Trump. And Trump is probably now you know, Trump is in a position that he likes to be in. I mean, the position that gives him the most satisfaction. Maybe I will fire him. Maybe I won't fire him. Let's see. Minute to minute. He doesn't know it, but but what Trump likes to do, likes to feel. and likes other people to understand.

is that all of the power is in his hands. And, this is true about so much less. than it was before the midterms of the power he had. But he still very clearly has the power. Either to, to get rid of Hagans. or to let him continue in his job. So that's what this this press conference was about. Please, please, please, Mr.

President, don't fire me. Right. Okay. We've got, for those of you who haven't watched it. And why would you watch it? No need to watch it. But Michael and I have watched it. Here are a couple of our favorite clips. This is not patriotism. This is sabotage. You know, five years ago, America was humiliated in Kabul, Afghanistan, and every enemy on Earth took notice. But somehow, as the president pointed out yesterday, no impeachment.

vote for Lloyd Austin for that terrible withdrawal. Not even one vote or no impeachment. vote for when he went AWOL for over a week. No impeachment vote for when he let a Chinese spy balloon. fly over the country for over a week. You see, President Trump ended that kind of wokeness and weakness peace. through strength, not as a slogan, but as a way of war. I mean, I just I mean, blaming, you know, this is nothing to do with what came before.

It was pretty strange when Lloyd Austin disappeared for a week. and didn't tell anybody. But, I mean, I noticed a few things. First of all, Pete had a very dry mouth. He'd come out with a bottle of water, or there was a bottle of water. for him at the page, and he didn't use it, perhaps. wanting to avoid a Paul Ryan moment, but he had dry mouth. He looked nervous. His face was puffy. He looked like he absolutely hadn't slept. But he did look as if he practiced the speech.

You know, I, I, I, I if I were pagans, my mouth would be dry too, because I mean, it it is this, this moment in his career. It is the most important moment. Will he be ignominiously fired? And he'll be fired. If he is fired, he'll be fired with with a with a post. So he'll know. He'll know his fate when we all know his fate at that singular moment. And will it come? Will he? Won't it come?

I mean, he he has no idea, because Trump has no idea yet. Right. That's such a good point. All right, we've got another clip here. President Trump is willing to do what no other president would. He did the tough right thing, not for politics, but for the safety and the security of the American people. That's leadership. He did not kick the can. He kicked their teeth in. I mean, it's just the language is just so,

so not worthy of an American secretary of defense. Well, I mean, I don't think that that's that. that the language is worthy of Donald Trump. And again, that's who this is about. And the whole Trump thing. And I think we can get into that because it, it, it reflects on the Stephen Miller appointment.

It reflects on this on that. That weird Dana White interlude. that it is about fighting Trump. This is Trump. I am a fighter. Trump really has no other message than that. I am a fighter. I will fight my battles. I will fight your battles. I'm a fighter. My cats run my house, my world, my universe.

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head, that 60% off your first order, plus free shipping. and free treats for life when you had to smalls.com/head. I'm a fighter. Okay, so that brings me to your excellent Substack. post this morning, which is about that very theme. I'm going to read a little bit because I did. I did think when he was talking about fighting you, I mean, it immediately takes you back to. Butler, Pennsylvania, in his first words after being shot at were fight,

fight, fight. And I'm going to read a little bit from your column again, for those. who haven't, who haven't read it, and we can recommend. you can subscribe to Michael's column, Howl on Substack. And you say Trump is a stupid man, but he is keenly attuned. to a few personal narratives, among them his Playboy. swagger, his wealth, and his aggressive pug nasty. He's a counter puncher. He often proudly explains. You come at him and he comes back harder.

Is that what he's doing with Stephen Miller? Yeah. Very much. I mean, that's always this is part of this is doubling down. This is, this is you think. you think you're going to make me Ben, but I'm never going to bend. I am in that is always. That is his singular narrative over the entirety of his political career. Then there really is, if you parse it, no other narrative.

I'm a fighter. I will oppose anyone who opposes me. I am this to be a fighter, to be someone who never bends, who never admits to anything is my identity. That's that's what you're seeing here. That's the story that I am telling. And that's the thing that you can always be sure. You may not like me. You may not agree with my policies, you may not even know my policies. But what you know, the thing that you know,

and it's greater than anything else, is that I am a fighter. Fight, fight, fight. That is the thing. And remember, Trump is such is a is. a simple man and he tells a simple story. So. And the story is is the the simplest narrative. In the third act he's when when the hero is up against it. He doesn't give up. He comes back even harder.

And that's, that's actually. and let's let's remember that has worked for Trump. So the Stephen Miller thing is and that's when when he appointed Stephen Miller. And we went over the other day the the exigencies of why he appointed. Stephen Stephen Miller again, not a plan, but because Stephen Miller was the. the loyalist person, the the the the most loyal, most available person.

at that moment when he had to appoint someone, when Susie. Wiles had stormed out of the out of the white House. But when he appointed Stephen Miller, that was his lead. Stephen Miller is a fighter and God knows Stephen Miller. I'm not sure I would call it a fighter, as I would call it in, in someone. implacably, unable. and uninterested in compromise of any sort.

So exactly the kind of person you don't want. in the chief of staff role, which is essentially a management role. Management is the process of compromise, really. And then and then, this day in a white thing day, I mean, I mean, okay, that was not serious on any level. It wasn't serious. The expectation that Dana White would take this role. And then Trump was actually forced to say it was a joke. We should explain what the Dana White moment is.

But just before we do, I just want to come back to one thing on Stephen Miller, which goes to the point of why we do this podcast. and why I always find your point of view on Donald Trump so interesting. And you have written four books on him. And as you say, he's been inside your head for the last ten years. But but what I found remarkable on, sort of Friday, I guess, when he appointed Stephen Miller was how much discussion. there was about people saying, well, and I'm on television and in traditional sort of media about.

how could he have appointed Stephen Miller? But this is a, you know, a middle finger to the Democrats. Why is he doing this? This makes no sense. And you think your point of view and what we have been trying to do. in this podcast is to explain what goes on in Donald Trump's head. And it's not the usual political logic. Joe Biden would not have made this appointment. Bill Clinton, when he got shellacked in the middle in the midterms, hired Republicans.

That's not what Donald Trump has done here. He's taken his most aggressive, lieutenant, as you say, deeply loyal and the architect. of the most unpopular policy, which is immigration and the, you know, the masked men in the streets. And he's doubling down on him. And I think it's important just to remind people of that. I don't understand why people have found it such a surprise. appointment, because it feels a Trumpian appointment. And just remember that it is it is a remember.

that this persona of the fighter has been the one thing. that has consistently worked for Donald Trump. That's number one. Number two is that, he. he has his he has no other playbook, right? I mean, it just it just isn't there. He does one thing. And so that one thing has worked reasonably,

if not incredibly well for him. And he's going to do it again. And and the other thing to to remember is. it doesn't have a lot to do with policy here. Stephen Miller and you. might say well well this, this is an indication. that he's going to double down on the, on immigration. But then we saw on that 60 minutes interview that he was. kind of qualifying his stand on on immigration.

So policy is always separate from persona. Persona is fight. implacable stubborn never give up. And it is fight in itself. And that's the Dana White point. So Dana White is the head of. of the UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship. And that's there was a UFC match. a couple of months ago in a couple of months ago.

Well, it was July, right? It was to celebrate America to 50 already. July already quite a number of months ago on the white House lawn. Trump has always been a UFC fan. And and so Dana White, who's not involved with politics, who has never been involved with with with been been. not a media guy, not a not a. a not a flack basically.

He's he's the manager of this, of this company that promotes fighting. So and that's all all he wanted. Trump wants the identification Dana White a fighter. And then and then he invited Dana White to be his press secretary. and to bring along a, a little, a little group of his top fighters. So it's just fight, fight, fight. And he did this on Truth Social. He puts out a Truth Social saying that because there's no press secretary post.

Katie Zakaria because she only lasted five days. Not a fighter. Not a fighter. Well, except she was busy out on, very right wing. media blaming the white House for not having briefed her properly. But she's, I think, well and truly disappeared now. But, Trump put this out and it wasn't clear. if he actually meant UFC, Dana White or many people. then pointed to the fact that there was a deputy press spokesperson in one of the.

But that was that was clear that. that was just you're just you're just lost in social media there. It was clearly Dana White, the fighter, because he then invited. the other fighters in the Dana White retinue to accompany him. So stay off social media. But then there was a conversation about, had he made a had he made a mistake? But, but it was really a joke. But then what was really remarkable was that he then got Dana.

White to the podium, who looked somewhat incredulous that he was there. And they then had a sort of funny press conference. And just just to note that I think Dana White, in his job. as running the UFC, makes something like $200 million a year, as opposed to the press secretary, who I believe makes. less than 200,000. But anyway, anyway, Dana White's clearly not going to accept the job, but it was just the sort of moment of taking something.

I mean, you know, I'm sure Trump is furious with the press over. the last week, as well as being furious with many other things, everybody furious with everybody except himself. And so it was a way of sort of mocking. the whole concept of the white House briefing. And let's go back to what this portends. Trump now has this thing that has this thing has happened to Trump in. in existential moment in his presidency and in his political career.

Broad repudiation from every. from almost every aspect of the country. and from his own party, a kind of national. waking up and saying, this guy is. is incompetent and loathsome. and doesn't deliver on anything. So now he has to.

Now he's got two more years in office. How does he react to that? And and again, the usual thing, the politically, the politically tried and true. method is that you then try to compromise. You say, okay, that's you, you admit to your defeat, you try to try to target the, the reasons for your defeat.

in which you might be able to, to deliver some compromises with the other side. Right. And and you are then looking for. And remember, in a traditional presidency, you really are looking for. the things that you can now accomplish. with a, with the opposition in charge. So in that accomplishment, when you're the president.

is usually measured in legislation that you can pass. Okay. That's not something that Trump is interested in. That's not a measure that he acknowledges or accepts. And again, so what is the measure? The measure the measure is the attention he receives and the. The the the persona. He maintains what he has to be.

What his goal is always to be. Is Donald Trump bigger, greater than ever before? This is going to be a problem for how to how to achieve that right now. But as I say in, in, in, it's always important to. to remember he keeps doing what he has always done before. So we will see. I'm I'm I would be absolutely positive this this.

not necessarily not not really a reversion to. but an increase of this persona of. I am implacable, I give back always harder than I get. I am the, I am the UFC champion. I am the UFC champion. So. I guess Hargus is also trying. to do that in his in his speech today. What did you think of Donald Trump on 60 minutes?

I'm assuming you watched it. I did, I did, and I found I found it. So having said all that about about him. being the fighter, what we also see, and this was. the kind of split screen is a person who doesn't know what he's going to do. I mean he hasn't found he's sort of casting. casting about for how he takes. the Trump narrative forward.

So there was suddenly this compromise on immigration. And there was you know, there was a sense that the, you know, that the war had had had, had had contributed to this defeat. I mean, it was a moment if you were if you don't know Donald Trump, when you could have possibly sensed a kinder, gentler Donald Trump. And I will tell you, kinder, gentler,

gentler Donald Trump, Donald Trump does not exist. Yeah. So did you feel that he snowed 60 minutes? Do you think they caught him? In a brief moment of reflection, what do you think we saw there? I think we I think we saw a temper Donald Trump. So he has not yet come up. Remember that Donald Trump is a performer. So he's throwing out things and he's a you know,

he throws out things to see how they play and, and, and he, he's looking for, he's looking for the line that he will pursue. And again, he's looking for the simple line that he's that he will pursue. And he hasn't he hasn't found it yet. But but he will find it. Well, he found a line yesterday. and that he was telling people the war in Iran was basically one. I mean, we've heard that endless countless, many times and lets you know,

we should we should come to that. because that is still going to be the main, the main problem. He faces an interesting thing though, I that that he reverted. on, on social media basically to the the election being stolen again. I mean yeah. You know again that's a line throwing out these kinds of things. You know one of the things you know, he threw out the softening.

on immigration to see how that played with MAGA. So so all these things are, are, are testing. But but the truth social going back to the election. being stolen was that was was that clear reversion. He goes back to what he has done before. I know it's almost like he's testing it. For those who didn't read it, I've got it here. Does anybody really believe that this election was honest? How could the polls be so wrong?

Some early voting dumps were so large. that it was impossible to win, no matter how many people went to vote. It's all about the machines, which are far more important than the voter. Exclamation point, president DJT. what does he mean? It's all about the machines. Yeah, exactly. Because his obsession with the machines, which he doesn't understand, in which. which he trusts that perhaps other people won't understand. So we have a a possible conspiracy in the machines.

Now, now, this has been been resoundingly rejected. Fox news had to pay almost $1 billion. because it, in a moment of its own weakness, in its own panic about where its audience was subscribed to. Donald Trump's view of of elections. as being machine driven and the machines being. being manipulated by weird foreign powers and God knows.

God knows what. But here he is. He is back to that again. Right. And Dominion, the voting machine company, strongly fought back. And as you say, they got a settlement of 750 million. And the head of Tucker Carlson, who at the time was the most popular. Fox News host, added 9:00 evening show. Right. And there's another voting and suddenly can't remember. the name of the of the company who is now continues to sue Fox.

That will cost them probably another close to to $1 billion to settle. So the machines trumps. Trump's machine narrative. It doesn't hold up to anyone but to Donald Trump. Right. And it didn't seem to catch fire with any of his traditional MAGA supporters. I would disagree with that. That that it did. I mean, this became a Maga, a Maga tentpole.

No, no, I mentioned this. I mean, this this most recent one this time. Yeah. No one I mean, he is in this intractable, intractable position, which is that the this victory was so overwhelming, so overwhelming in so many places by such numbers. Nobody believes. Just a little whiff. We shift this way. 22,000 votes this way.

It's millions upon millions of votes, right? The country spoke very forcefully. And he put this I mean, it's it felt like a tempered truth. Social sort of. It's all about the machines, which are far more important than the voter. Exclamation point. But it didn't it didn't catch fire in anyways, all I'm saying, and again, that's what he's looking for. He's looking for a line that he feels comfortable with, that he's getting response to that, that can that can carry this story.

I am the fighter forward. Right. So there's a sort of weird strain among MAGA. And by MAGA, I mean sort of people like Megan Kelly and Elon Musk, which is. and I don't know if they're doing it just to change the subject or whatever, but is this sense in which they're supporting Russell Brand, the entertainer. who on Monday, so yesterday got. sentenced to ten years in jail in the UK for rape. And he's now become a sort of I mean, it's a sense of it.

gives you a sense of how sort of weird and, and lost the MAGA movement. is that they've suddenly come out and basically supported Russell Brand. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, what does it get them for to make Russell Brand the face of MAGA? I mean, that's completely confusing to me. And and by the way, Trump has also, suggested. that Russell Brand,

you know, has gotten a raw deal. Russell Brand, I mean, a real, well, probably. because Trump knows that he's been accused by, you know, what is it, 28 women of sexual abuse. And and he's managed to stay pretty much out of it, apart. from each Jean Carrolls settlement against him. And he's probably thinking, oh, I can't believe that Russell Brand. is going to jail. Why didn't he fight more? It's hard to see that anybody wins by supporting Russell Brand.

Yeah, I'm sort of, I mean, really stunned that that the go to here would be, of all people, Russell Brand, Russell brand. Right. Because even the Tate brothers got shown the door. and the and the defense here is is vociferous. I mean Megan Kelly is is a you know has elevated Russell. Brand to a, to a kind of MAGA sainthood. Yeah. It's bizarre.

I don't know why Megan's doing that. And and Ellen two, you know. So there is this this thing. Let's I mean, let's do a little a little epistemology on this. is that there is is, you know, the the the MAGA movement, the Trump movement has represented this, this idea or ideal of manhood, and of masculinity and. Yeah, okay. We, we we got that.

But in fact, in the midterm that, that that played nowhere as far as I can tell. I mean that was, that was a gun issue. And so, so to continue to toe that line, Russell. Brand as the as an avatar of masculinity, I mean, completely, completely confusing to me. Now, of course, what one of the things Russell Brand converted to MAGA.

ism and Trumpism and conservatism and evangelicalism. So that that that makes him. one of their people to defend, I suppose. Well, and Russell Brand. seemed to be living out Trump's philosophy, as explained to Billy Bush. That you can grab them by the pussy. and they'll let you you can just do anything you want. And I think it's that post me to, as you.

say, manhood thing, as represented by the Tate brothers. and these really unpleasant male characters. And I don't know why they're doubling down on Russell Brown, because juries aren't supporting that anymore. The jury found him well and truly guilty. Yeah, well, I think juries tend not to support that. Including the case against Donald Trump, of course. Yeah. Well, for the most part, actually, juries find juries. You actually get a very low conviction rate for rape.

It's very, very low is way under 10%. Well, historically that's true. But in terms but it is not in true and not true in terms of. of very high profile cases and especially high. profile cases against people with some amount of celebrity. Well, and also where there are more than one, more than one accuser and then there's. a pattern of behavior which was what was apparent with Russell Brand.

I mean I mean I just don't get it that. I mean, we know the message from the midterms, the message from the midterms was not in any way, shape or form. You know, we we want our, our, our men. to be, to be rapists, free and on the prowl. Right? Free and on the prowl. Let's go back, though, you know, because I, I, I think. one of the interesting things as, as Trump tries to configure.

where he goes here and one of the hurdles he, he has. and I don't see how he gets over it in any way, is the war in Iraq right? What what what does he do. This is not going away. So on unless he and and he is now sort of, sort of. in a position where he has to make some move. Can he just let this trail on unresolved,

declaring that he's, that he's won, but, but somehow, incongruously, it's. it being very clear that the Iranians have not lost. What does he do now? Well, the Strait of Hormuz remains closed, too. So even when he's busy saying, oh, we've won the war, we've won the war, and it's going to wind down pretty quickly because he he even he realizes.

the war was a big cause of why they lost the midterms and the knock on. effect of the price of gas, etc., etc.. The Strait of Hormuz is still closed. There is still that. Exactly. It's not exactly closed. Well, it's nothing like it. I mean, I mean quite a quite a quite a bit of all is, is getting through. But what he have, what we have created is a precedent. in which the Iranians actually do control the Strait. of the Strait of Hormuz, whether they're allowing us to go through or not.

They could they could change that course at any moment. They have control of the Strait of Hormuz. and which is, which is a, a, a a, a. significant departure from, from where things stood before the war began. So we are in a much weaker position than we were before the world. The war began. What does he do about that now?

I don't know, and he doesn't know. And what does? He doesn't know. He's clearly got no idea. And the people around him don't have any idea to. And they're all kind of looking to him very clearly for some sort of solution. And there was an expectation that he was going to go. in and bomb Iran again. Right. Which he may which he may do. I think all of these these no good options now sit in front of him.

I mean, he can he can begin a massive a massive new bombing campaign. against the Iranians, which would further exhaust our munitions supply. and which might well, in fact, might likely result in exactly. the stalemate which a massive bombing campaign has already resulted in. So. So does he want to do that? Well, and again, that would be doubling down on the very thing.

that his vice president has said cost them the midterms. So that would be a Trumpy thing to do, to ignore the fact that it's so unpopular. and to go in and have some action for action sake. Well, yes. But but actually that that would probably be another option, which is I go in, I do something, I do, I do what's limited bombing. So I do a performative bit of bombing for a couple of days. Then I declare victory and we get out.

Performative. His, his situation is how do I declare victory? And if I massively bomb and nothing changes that, that's hard to declare. Victory. I mean, he's already that's what he's doing now and no one is believing it. So that would be just be be, you know, even in the Trump world to double down. on something that that in this instance doesn't get him the victory. Even the, the even the ability.

to credibly claim victory, even if it isn't a victory. I, I don't know, I mean, he's not. yes, Trump is stupid, but nobody is that stupid. Well, he was. stupid enough to start a war that five previous presidents. decided against because they knew it would lead to the Iranians. closing the Strait of Hormuz so he can't get out of it. And so that means.

to me, the most likely thing is, is a level of capitulation to the Iranians. And then we declare victory. But it but it might be that. he just lets this lets this go on. It could be actually Trump's ultimate revenge that he just. that this situation continues on and he hands it to the next president. Oh, well, I would have thought, though, that that might bode.

well for Pete Hegseth, because if you fire Pete Hex, doesn't that suggest that the war was somehow a mistake? Yeah. Well, yes. But it also means that he can blame it on Pete Hegseth, right? I suppose that's true. Where I, Donald Trump, I've often thought that our comparison. I would fire Pete, and then I would blame it on Pete, Pete,

Seth, and, and then I would send in, you know, Jared and Steve Wyckoff to get any possible deal I could get. Right? Literally, you say to the Iranians, just. We just got to save face on this. You get whatever you want, just give us some face. saving stuff here, no matter how meaningless. Well, he might well do that. That would at least be a solution for him. But I do love your description of Donald Trump not knowing if he's going to fire.

Pete Hex, not knowing if he's going to be fired, and sitting there. waiting for the Truth social post which will reveal all. So I have a question for you mentioned earlier, Susie Wiles storming off after. Trump had berated her yet another time for the performance at the midterms. Does Susie Wiles remain loyal? Well, you know, loyalty is understood in different kind of ways.

Does she remain publicly loyal or, at least publicly respectful? Yes. Does she do everything possible? In private? Undermine him? Yes. It's just so unpleasant, isn't it?

It's so. It's so peculiar. And. And I'm assuming she's going to undermine. Stephen Miller or try to undermine Stephen Miller. How could she most effectively undermined or Trump, you know, just. I mean, she's going to be, a most mindful of her own interests here. And one of the interests, by the way, is her daughter. and her daughter's future career, Katie Wiles, that that was part of the tension within the white House.

is that she kept promoting her, her own daughter. And, you know, part of the. the rub on Susie Wiles, or at least the understanding of. of Susie Wiles priorities. is that she was intense, intently focused on her own reputation and her. and her her coterie of people, including her daughter.

And it was often pointed out she wasn't really that concerned about. about Donald Trump and, and the kinds of things that he said. which might cause him in the administration discomfort. She could live with that. And that's probably why she lasted as long as she did, in fact. But but at the same time, they're protective of herself, her reputation and her people.

So now we're in a situation in which. she has been publicly, and, so what does she do? Well, you know, she's a, you know, she's an adept political player. She has her self-interest to protect here. What? In other words, what she can get out of this and continue. to get and what her what her daughter and her people can get at the same time.

You know, she's, she will look for all, all, all options in which to, to put the knife in. Interesting. Well, perhaps she'll go and work as an advisor to Jensen Huang, the CEO and founder of Nevada. I talk about a lot understanding character, and in particular,

looking at the world through the lens of the seven deadly sins. And this story has everything sex, betrayal, ambition, lust, power, money, greed, a mean at an epic level. I think the more important top line is, is corruption. So betrayal the and not, not not just that. Well there's another interesting aspect of this. I mean first thing this came to light within the, within.

within the administration I mean first. Commerce Department investigation. Well let's just back up. Let's just back up and explain what's happened. So Jensen Wang, the founder of Nvidia, which is basically been a massive driver. of the rise of the American stock market recently and absolutely essential. in the rise of the big AI companies, which now make up 45% of the stock market.

It turns out he's been having an affair with someone. Probably not uncommon for many CEOs, except. that it turns out that she was a Chinese spy. The Americans knew she was a Chinese spy, but didn't tell Jensen Huang. And now the board is investigating Jensen. and trying to figure out what to do. He's apologized to his family. Inevitably, they always do that. But it's a bit of a mess, and it's unclear why the Americans didn't.

tell him when they had the intelligence that Alice Wong, no relation, was indeed a Chinese spy. Well, we don't know what the American what what the US government told him. Remember. And we don't know what Donald Trump knew exactly. And and Donald Trump, I think we do. I think we do know because he came out or that Nvidia came out and said, we assume that if the Americans had known that.

she was working for Chinese intelligence, she would have told him. Well, I think in this kind of situation, it's very important. not to believe, not to trust anything said by anyone. And, and of course, Donald Trump and and, Mr. Huang, speak often. seem to have developed a quite. a close relationship. Mr. Wang seems to be seems to have become Donald, one of Donald.

Trump's main connections to the to the tech industry, to the AI industry. And Donald Trump has become Mr. Huang's one of his major supporters. and the tech industries major supporters in government. So, so how is it that if the United States government actually. was aware of this, that that that Donald Trump was not aware of this?

That seems that seems improbable? Well, they the intelligence services have said that. they told him he says he has no memory of being told. Exactly. Yes. I have no memory of that. Yes. Okay. We can we can reconstruct that and says, of course he knew. Of course he was aware. Does. And then, yes, he probably would have told. his friend Jensen. Anyway, that's not that's not unreasonable on any level.

But the other fact of this is, is that this was an, an investigation. that begun in the Commerce Department, this fact of this, of this relationship. By the way. The relationship was with. another with a Chinese woman also named Wang. Right. Alice Wang. And and the headline in the New York Post. yesterday was Wang Wang Bang bang, which was the front cover that went viral very quickly.

So, but anyway, it began in the, in the Commerce Department, the relationship and her likely status as a, as working for the Chinese government also was, as I understand, inadvertently established in this investigation. But then this investigation was taken over, was removed.

from the Commerce Department and became a Justice Department investigation. Obviously the justice in within the Justice Department. Trump himself would have much more control over this. Todd Blanch is the attorney. general, is the president's personal attorney. In fact, if not, name and they could have handled this there then. However, this was from somewhere in the executive branch. leaked to the New York Times.

So, this. this leak was obviously obviously not good for Mr. Wang, but also not good for Donald Trump. and not good for the AI industry itself, which is has a lot of, a lot of proponents. within the administration, but also a, you know, a pretty clear circle of people who are.

skeptical and, And have other ideas about this. I mean, in fact, the, the MAGA, the MAGA base has more. and more proved itself to be very anti, AI and of course anti data centers. And, and Nvidia basically is what does Nvidia do. Data centers. Well and it also makes the chips that everybody uses in data centers.

You and I have a little data center. We could we could go again on our. we're not going to go again on our data center dispute. But what do you think happens here. Why do you think you've softened your line on Ron DeSantis? Maybe you could slip it on data center. Well, I'm very curious as to what happens with Nvidia here. It lost 5% of its value yesterday. If Nvidia catches a cold, which this may turn out to be,

does the stock market get Covid is my question. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what it has old is, is a very strange Lee built company. I mean, he started Nvidia 30 years ago. Essentially it was a video gaming company. And then they discovered. that they designed semiconductor chips, which were incredibly useful for AI. And that's how the company grew suddenly, so quickly. And it's now worth, you know, $4.5 trillion,

or at least it was it was becoming less valuable yesterday. But it turns out that there's. no successor within the company, no obvious successor within the company. And he has a relatively flat. organization with 60 direct reports. So it's unclear if you took him out, which perhaps. a regular public company might do. That it would be as successful as it is.

So, yeah. No. And I think that there's a lot of governance issues with which, which make it very hard for him, for him him to be removed. But. I, I think. there's an there's also a larger picture here. I mean, he is one guy, one of these tech guys. among many of these tech guys who have. who have created themselves as a, a,

a guys, individuals. who have this enormous control over the, the US and the world economy. Number one. Number two, whose own money? And, Jensen Kwang is one of the richest men. in the world at this, at this, this point, their own. money has given them entitlement at a level, you know, at a certainly at a robber baron level of entitlement or.

or probably greater, probably something we have never quite seen before. And they have all made or at least. a good number of them have made relationships. And I think we can fairly say. dubious relationships, semi corrupt duration relationships. with, with the, with Trump and the Trump White House. So is it all about to. crater in some way?

And, and I think. well, I mean, I think they, I think all of these guys are entering a, a, a new, a new phase of business and life. And what does that mean for the tech industry. and the economy? Well, it's, sobering. It's a it's a sort of sobering moment for the economy, I think.

But but what I find really strange here is that Donald Trump keeps saying. he who wins AI wins, that. the battle is between the US and China. And here we have what appears to be his close friend, Jensen Wang, possibly inadvertently giving information to the Chinese. And at the same time, Trump, because of the Trump administration, they've lessened regulations, with with the Chinese that have given them.

the Chinese, expanded access. to Jensen Wang's products. Right. And he has maintained Johnson Wang has meant. we should totally let the Chinese have chips. This is ridiculous. Not not letting them have chips. Trump will be in China next week. It will be incredibly interesting to see how this resolves. I spoke to three CEOs yesterday, each of whom is a billionaire, none of whom thought that Jensen would, would lose his job over this.

One of them pointed to Jeff Bezos and said Jeff Bezos didn't lose his job, and he was sending dick pics on his phone. Which of course got got, surfaced in the National Enquirer. My point was, well, he wasn't you know, Lawrence Sanchez wasn't actually Chinese. And as far as we know, possibly giving secrets to the Chinese. I guess it depends what he was telling her. What? Their pillows, I just was. So the three CEOs that, that you were speaking to yesterday.

Do you think, Are they having affairs? I mean, what do you think? Question. You know, you know, they didn't think, you know, these people. Are they having the first and is every tech, see? Oh, having an affair? Yeah, it's a really, really good question. I mean, I think Jensen's leather jacket and his hair was always a signal. Actually, it's a very good question. I don't think the three people I spoke to or,

But you never know. You never know, do you? You never know. Rupert Murdoch, obviously a billionaire of of some significance, married a Chinese woman. And, who many people in his company, notably Roger. Ailes, said was a Chinese spy. And, and then he divorced her. And Rupert Murdoch's then began saying she was a Chinese spy.

Well, and interestingly, she's alleged to have also had affairs with Tony Blair, former British prime minister, and Eric Schmidt, former CEO of Google. So interesting that I've always been interested by that scenario. And which which scenario exactly. Spying or having affairs with billionaires? The. I was thinking more of the spying aspect of it, because Wendy Deng. then introduced Rupert Murdoch to his current wife, who's Russian.

So Rupert Murdoch has been married to a Chinese woman and is currently. married to a Russian woman, the former mother. in law of one of the most. notorious Russian oligarchs, Roman Obama. Anyway, it's fascinating. Trump will be in China next week. Obviously will be will be following him there. But, it'll be really interesting. to see what happens to Nvidia stock over the next week and to Mr.

Wang and to Mr. Huang, whose kids both work for the company, interestingly. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that this is, Right. This is quite a story. Well, it's a story that's given way to tons of memes, which we're going to. play some of them now, but I think my favorite was probably the video. taking off. Usher with him and of course, celebrating his famous leather jacket. You think he's had his has he had other affairs?

You think? I would like to know about Jensen. I would like the full profile of his personal life. I suspect you're going to get it. I suspect there are so many people crawling over Jenson. Wang's personal life right now. There was a positively gleeful episode of the daily podcast This morning. We're recording this on Tuesday morning. I listened to it this morning. It's very rare that you hear them quite as gleeful as they were over this.

But as you say, I'm halfway through the Elon Musk documentary, The Alex Gibney for our Elon Musk documentary. Do you have a screener on that? I got a screener because I had to I had to beg to get a screener. because it it it blinked through New York movie houses, I think possibly because it's four hours long so people can't commit to it. Well, could you give. Can you give me a link? Because then.

we can discuss. And another thing that I wanted to discuss. is that Elizabeth Holmes movie, which I saw, I never go to the movies, but I forced myself to go to the movie theater. because everybody is seeing this, this movie. And I thought it was a masterpiece. Interesting. You thought. I mean, I was really bawled over by it and I thought, oh my God, this is, this is an extraordinary one of the most. One of the more extraordinary movies I've ever seen.

I thought this would have been a novel, that I would have given almost anything to have written. It was a it was just just a stunning story of, of of. of of characters who, who were at odds with themselves at every point. which and I think is for most, most humankind,

we are at odds with ourselves at every point. This was just more vivid, more vivid than I've ever seen. this kind of that kind of thing portrayed. Interesting. Did you read the book Bad Blood? I did, which I didn't like at all. Oh, interesting. I loved the book. I thought that was the. I thought that was a guy who didn't understand anything about human beings. Go on. What do you mean? I mean, I thought he understood a lot about science and a lot about business.

He just didn't understand anything about human beings. And this film, on the other hand, was all. about the humanist of it, the pathetic humanness of it all. Interesting. Well, it's a different perspective on it. I found it frustrating because I think once you've created a company, I thought there wasn't enough of the crime in it. And I also think if you're getting to spend,

a month with someone before they go to jail, you want to know. some very. obvious questions about what it's like facing the idea. of spending 11 years in prison when you've got little children? Well, I think I think you got that, actually, I think that that was delivered very vividly. If it was delivered in the in a show not tell way. And again, I think that was the, that was that was one of this. It the novelistic aspects of this.

It was all shell all show very little tale. Interesting. Unusual for a documentary, by the way. Yeah. And I mean, the one thing I did think watching the Elon Musk documentary. and I'm only halfway through because as I mentioned, it's a four hour documentary, but it's really interesting. Is a and they've got incredible access to people, which may be a sort of theme between the two of them that are.

what's so interesting about you can see everything is the, the access they have to Elizabeth Holmes and moving in with her. and and Alex Gibney has amazing access to, certainly Elon Musk's first wife, Justine Musk, who actually wrote a piece for us. when we when I was editing Marie Claire about Elon. And she talks extensively about him, as do other. ex-girlfriends and what she was, his ex-wife.

And you get a lot of information from the person that actually started Tesla. Martin Eberhardt you'll get me a. I will do my best to get I will do my best to get you a screener. We can discuss that because Elon Musk, I mean, not just the movie, but. Elon Musk is a central figure of. totally that we ought to be dealing with. Yeah. And I actually wonder if they had released it a week later after he'd. been so resoundingly defeated, given how much money he put up, 450 million.

for the Republican Party, whether or not it would have caught on more. because it was in New York theaters. I don't know about the rest of the country, but for very little time, maybe one week, maybe two weeks, I try to get to see it in a theater, and I couldn't, but it's. a really fascinating portrait into him. Okay, put it on the list. Okay. So what else? We've got two limericks, Michael.

So our first one is from Paul Watson. 8809 King Maga Memnon decreed. that Persia be knocked off its steed. When war did not sell the orange one fell, defeated by pride, lies and greed, and edits is back with another one which got a lot of traction. He put it in the comments, or I shouldn't assume edits is a man. Edit might be a woman, and it's put it in the comments. And then Garfield jumped in and said that he'd been trying to get a rhyme.

with two of the words here, which will become evident in a moment. And then there was a whole discussion. about it in the comments, which was really fun. Anyway, this is from edits. If ever a political duo blue, it's big chance. It's the sorry combination of Trump and Vance. As everybody knows, the Emperor has no clothes and the vice emperors not wearing pants. I thought those were really fun. Very nice, very nice. All right, so we will be back on Thursday to go inside.

Trump's head, where I think the mush might be firming up as he realizes. that he's going to have a different scenario for the next two years. And we'll we'll find out if he still has a job. I will see you then. I'll look forward to it. Big thanks to our production team Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passa, Heather Pesaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many BBC tier members now.

There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.