I Found the Doctors Behind Epstein’s Creepy Medical Machine | The Daily Beast Podcast

What did seem fairly evident to me was what a well-oiled machine the system was. Within Epstein's own little universe, and just how. quotidian. And matter of fact it the system was within Epstein's own little circle. Like this was something that he joked about. with his brother, like it was that well known within his little circle. There's an email exchange between him and his brother where his brother's like, who's the gynecologist in New York that you used to send your victims to?

And that's the word. That's the word that he uses victims. You sort of feel like you're taking a swim in the cesspool of humanity. You don't necessarily come away from reading Jeffrey. Epstein emails with, positive view of humanity. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and one of the most interesting pieces that I have read of late that stemmed. from the cache of 3 million Jeffrey Epstein files,

is a piece that appeared in the court by the senior writer E.J. Dixon, about the incredible medical network. that Jeffrey Epstein set up to ensure that the girls. he was trafficking to his friends and indeed, using himself, were treated for sexually transmitted diseases. And how he approached the whole nature of sexual health. And one of the things I find most ironic about him is that,

people who spent time with him would say, oh, he was a germaphobe. He would never shake your hand. And I'd think, what are you talking about? This is a man who had sex with three strangers every day. Not like once a year, but every day. He was, as we know, sexually incontinent in terms of his appetites. And what I found interesting about the piece. When I sent it to people, nobody wanted to read it. I got friends back saying, oh no, no, no, I don't want to read about this. How depressing. But actually what it is, is a really interesting insight.

into the scale of his sexual enterprise and the organization. that he applied to it. The assistants were constantly booking appointments for these girls. and his sort of pussy wellness tests that he called them, and his extreme knowledge of women's sexual health. Anyway, E.J. spent ten days plowing through thousands of emails. to string together a narrative which really explains.

well the scale, the organization, and the really disturbing nature. of this very disturbing man. Let's get into it. E.J. Dixon, thank you for joining us. And I found your piece absolutely fascinating. I mean, you really did a good job pulling together. the scale of this thing that.

Jeffrey Epstein was running this sort of. I don't even know how to think about it. But the first thing that sort of caught my eye. was you described him as fastidious. What did you mean by that? He. It's a good question. What really struck me about the emails that we cited in. the story was just how health conscious he seemed. And it's not really what you would think about somebody who was running this.

massive sex criminal operation that that he was so conscious. of these women's health and by extension, his sexual health. But he really was he had a system. He would fly these women over, he would put them in these apartments. and he would demand that they get tested almost immediately. And he would send them to these doctors. And he was very systemic about it. He was extremely fastidious in and at least that respect.

And I'm assuming that the loss of these girls. Well, we know a lot of these girls came from Eastern Europe, came from Russia, where one can assume they had fairly rudimentary. access to any kind of sexual health clinic. Yes. And I and I should just specify from the outset that we know very little. about these women because, of course, the emails are redacted. So we don't know their ages, we don't know their names, we don't know whether they're underage.

We don't know whether they're they're of age. So when I refer to them as women, I, we don't know whether they are. women or girls. So we, we just know that they but we do know. that a lot of them are of Eastern European descent. because of the language that they use in their emails. We can tell that a lot of them were Russian or Polish, because of their signatures in their emails. So yes, I do. I do think that is a safe assumption to make, that a lot of them came from countries. where they did not have great access to reproductive health care.

Well, and one of the other things that Jeffrey Epstein. is famously supposed to have been is a germophobe. Like there were descriptions of him refusing to shake hands with people. who wanted to do the elbow bump or the fist bump. A great irony, as far as I can see, because he seemed to have sex with three strangers a day at a minimum. Can you talk about why you decided. to approach the Epstein story through the nature. of his.

his obsession with sexual health? Yes. It's terribly ironic, right? Especially now that we know from his medical records that he tested. positive for multiple sexually transmitted infections multiple times. He tested positive for chlamydia in 2015, and he tested positive for gonorrhea, I think, in 2016 and 2018, at least. So it's terribly ironic that he was so obsessed with hygiene. And. Tell me something. Let me just interrupt you to ask.

Is there ever did the word condom ever appear in any of these emails? Because I can't help thinking, why on earth wasn't he just wearing a condom? Yes they did actually, and it's interesting that you bring that up because there is. one specific exchange that we don't write about in the story, but, he talks about one girl testing positive for an infection called your, I don't know, I pronounce it, you're a plasma, which is not a sexually transmitted infection I had ever heard of,

but it was one that he had clearly heard of. because he specifically says in the text messages, oh, I've heard of this. This is an infection that you get just from having sex with a condom. So this was clearly something that he had dealt with before. He had a tremendous, very expansive knowledge of sexual health. as I write about in the piece, he knew quite a bit about women's. sexual health, and he would and he would cite it very frequently. And he would and he talked about these women sexual partners.

having sex with, you know, using condoms with their other partners as well. So, yeah, I mean, he did he did he did use condoms. I think that he was just if I had to, you know, extrapolate from the emails, he was just having so much sex that, you know, ultimately, you know, prophylactic use was was somewhat immaterial. Okay. So let's go back to what made you decide to focus on the emails. surrounding sexual health and the him sending,

his girls, as he called them, on his assistance, as he often referred to them off to, a whole network of doctors. It was a conversation with my editors, from one specific name. that kept recurring, in the emails. It was actually a doctor who we didn't really focus on very much in the piece. It was an email to a doctor, Alexander Shiffrin, whose name only comes up. once or twice, and my editor basically said, oh, we should we should dig into that a little bit more and see if.

there are any other gynecologist that Epstein was making payments to. And it turns out that he was making payments to a number of them. in between the years. I think in the piece, it spans from 2009 up to 2019, just a couple of months before his death. In some cases, these are, you know, almost a dozen payments. to the same gynecologist. He was extremely systemic about it, to the point that he would, you know, his assistants would joke, oh, who was the doctor that were sending these girls to,

they would revisit the same practitioners over and over and over again. So did you. expect or did you intuit from any of the emails. that the doctors understood what was going on here? I want to be extremely careful about how I answer that question, because we have no evidence to indicate that they did. And I spoke to have a gynecologist. who sort of ran in the same circles.

as these doctors, you know, very prominent Upper East Side gynecologist. All all of these doctors had very sterling reputations. And this gynecologist told me, you know, that's very plausible. that they didn't, you know, these these practitioners don't necessarily. deal with, you know, patient billing directly. And also, I mean, we don't know anything about these patients ages. They there might not necessarily have been reason to suspect illegal activity.

You know, young Eastern European women. coming to get checked out for sexually transmitted diseases. It's not necessarily illegal behavior. You know, it might be a little creepy. If there's one guy sending these women to these doctors. or referring these women to these doctors, but it's not necessarily illegal. So, so and also these doctors, in most cases, we don't have evidence that they directly corresponded with Epstein. So it's very, very possible that they, you know, were not aware.

about any illegal activities. And he had his assistants, his coterie of assistants, booking a lot of the appointments. Right? Yes. That's correct. And then the other thing I found interesting was that he would. demand photos from some of the girls when they had some kind of rash. or genital issue, and then they would send it, they would send him a photo, and then he would sort of say afterwards.

he would basically diagnose it to reference your point. about how much he knew about women sexual health. And then he'd say, now you have to send me a sexy picture to thank me. Yes, he he would act like a web. MD of sorts in these text messages. It was almost as if he was it was, a power flex, in some way like that. He was using, these women having sexually transmitted infections as an opportunity. to sort of show off his wealth of knowledge about their bodies.

Each I can hear some people thinking, well, isn't it better. that he did this, that if he was going to create a network, for, for his. friends and for these girls where these girls would be servicing his, his largely male friends, isn't it better that they had good sexual health? Wasn't he, in fact, doing them a favor? I think that's a really good question. Because these doctors, you know, they take a Hippocratic oath, right?

They take an oath to serve the patient. And I think that, you know, at least some of these doctors were even. if they did, you know, if they did suspect something, they probably were placed. I could see how they were placed in a real moral dilemma, you know, because they, you know, as you note, they take an oath. to serve the patient and to treat the patients. They don't take an oath to treat Jeffrey Epstein.

So even if they suspect something might be going on, like ultimately their function stops there, you know, they treat the patient, they make sure the patient is healthy and beyond, you know, real physical abuse. They can't really, you know, or, you know, the patient being underage, they can't really. the scope of their. treatment kind of stops there, you know, is is kind of what these physicians. I spoke to explained to me, like unless, unless they had they suspect. that these patients are being severely physically injured or they're underage.

Like there's not really much that they can do other than ask, like, are you okay? And if the patient is of age and says, like, yeah, I'm okay. There's not there's not really much that they can do. Like the moral responsibility stops there. So I, I can see the arguments that, you know, even if these physicians suspected something. that they were sort of, you know, put in a tough position. And by treating these patients, you know, they fulfilled their their moral obligation for sure.

In terms of Jeffrey Epstein's moral obligation. You know, I think when we're talking about somebody who has sex trafficked. hundreds of women and girls, you know, I think morality kind of flies out. the window when, when we're talking about somebody like that. I was going to read from two emails in the piece. You need family. He says, naming an antiviral medication commonly used to treat herpes.

In one particular gross email from 2012, he advises an unnamed woman. make sure you take some form of antibiotic for the pussy clear scene or some such. You've had many dicks in just a few weeks. Yeah, I think what was most. shocking to me, I sort of started out reporting this piece. thinking, well, obviously the gynecologists are complicit, right? They knew exactly. Or maybe we're going to find some evidence that the gynecologist were complicit,

you know, that they that they knew what was going on. And as I said before, I did not find any evidence suggesting that, but what did seem. fairly evident to me was what a well-oiled machine. the system was within Epstein's own little universe. And just how. quotidian and matter of fact it. the system was within Epstein's own little circle. Like this was something that he joked about. with his brother, like it was that well known within his little circle.

There's an email exchange between him and his brother where his brother's like, who's the gynecologist in New York that you used to send your victims to? And that's the word. That's the word that he uses victims. And and he hasn't answered the question in the email. But I think that's really telling because it just demonstrates. that this was just a codified practice within his circle. And the fact that his long time assistants would, you know,

as early as 2012, as early as 2015, knew who to send these women to, you know, knew. how to make these appointments, knew which phone numbers to call. I think that's that's really telling and really. disturbing in terms of who should have asked these questions. And, and at which point. Yeah. And the organization of it just suggests a scale that I mean, we know, obviously, that more than a thousand women have come forward,

but it's hard to understand. that scale until you see the medical system. that he's put in place to try and minimize sexually transmitted diseases, although he obviously doesn't succeed very well. With that, I want you to read another quote from your piece. I was crystal clear that the real risk. for casual sex in new with boys is disease. He wrote to one girl, I believe you either chose to carelessly disregard. what I had said or intentionally ignored it.

So it sounds like some of the women were balking at his protocols there. Yes, absolutely. There in that specific exchange, again, you know, going back to the idea of control, he's basically upbraiding this woman. for contracting herpes, and he's accusing her of having sex. outside of whatever their arrangement was with another partner. As we know full well, he's. regularly introducing these women to other men to have sex with. So clearly it's not about the fact that they're having sex with other men.

It's about the fact. that they're having sex with other men that he has not sanctioned beforehand. So it's it's clearly about the fact that he doesn't have control. over their sexual interactions. And it's not about the fact that they're actually having sex with other men. And. Yeah, and there's also a lot of evidence of the women. becoming very uncomfortable with, being seen by the gynecologists. You know, the women saying, I don't feel comfortable being seen by a male gynecologist.

I don't feel comfortable, getting a full workup. And this is often before he even meets the women. He's talking to his. The women of. him, his female associates, and the women who appear to be recruiting for him. And they're sort of mocking these younger women, for being uncomfortable. with being assessed by male physicians. And they're saying, oh, well, she's got to get used to that, you know? Oh, well, you know, she can't be she can't be uncomfortable.

You know, mocking these women for being uncomfortable with something. that, you know, is outrageous, like, why should this older man, who you've never met, dictate that you be seen by a male gynecologist. who you've also never met and demands that you send him? You're, like, in gynecology results like. And the. And there are just these outrageous Texas. techs where they're just, you know, mocking these young women for, like, poking at these insanely intrusive protocols.

He was just he was just all about control in any possible form. And presumably. he wanted to be able to guarantee the friends that he was. supplying girls with, that these were clean girls. and that they weren't going to pick up any diseases, ostensibly. But again, like, I think it was less about that and more about him. exercising control because ultimately, I mean, he's there are many texts.

exchanges and many emails that I found where the women would say, you know, send him photos of sores. on their genitals or say, you know, I do. You know, I have contracted something. And he would be like, oh, it's fine, just come on. The trip anyway, or oh no, it's it's it's fine. Like you're totally fine. Just send me, send me a sexy pic anyway, so. I don't think it was so much that he like, I don't think it was so much about.

It was so much about the fastidiousness that you, you know, that we were talking about earlier. So much as it was the fact that he wanted to exercise total control. over it was like he was playing Barbies, you know, with with the women. in his circle. He just wanted to have total control over everybody around him at all times. Well, despite his medical. fastidiousness, he manages to contract gonorrhea at least twice. It appears from from your piece. Can you tell us what then happens?

Because. one of the doctors that he's, talking about explains how two of the girls. he wants to get treated immediately should go to. And I'm assuming this is a sort of travel clinic. I hadn't come across it, but that they should go to a clinic in JFK. to avoid getting put into the health department system here yet. So it's a text message exchange.

with his personal physician, a guy who's based in West Palm Beach. And, he says that the girls were it's unclear. whether or not. they actually contracted gonorrhea, but he says the girls were exposed. to gonorrhea. And, the doctor says that he will give them a shot at a clinic in JFK. so he doesn't have to report their. contacts, including, presumably, Jeffrey Epstein, to the health department, which is standard procedure if you contract an STI. So that doctor feels a little bit.

more on Epstein's side, that suggests that that particular doctor. understood more about what was going on. I don't know. if I would necessarily say there's enough evidence to, at least from the materials that I reviewed to support that, but I think there is evidence from that exchange. to suggest that he certainly thought Epstein was above the system.

and was willing to participate in him avoiding, you know, the repercussions, I guess, or the implications, that come with participating in the health care system, for sure. Right? I mean, I read it as him having some sort of familiarity. with Jeffrey Epstein that this couldn't have been the first time that that Epstein. had sent someone to him that had contracted. or had asked his advice for someone who'd contracted something, and they were trying to figure out how to minimize that.

That. Yes. Contraction. I guess that's certainly true. I mean, he had he had, he had worked with this particular physician two years prior. So, so that is when he had contracted gonorrhea two years prior. So that is certainly true. So how large was his network of OB GYNs? It was fairly substantial, I found. I believe I have to count them. But I believe if I had to estimate.

he, I found evidence of him making payments to prob. if I had to estimate like half a dozen, ObGyn in New York City. And he also had a network of OB. gyns that he or his assistants. were in touch with in, West Palm Beach. and, New Mexico, as well as in New Albany, Ohio.

And we know he had homes in all of those locations. Wow. So it's really. a very it's a very wide network. Most people have one doc. So the idea that you have a, a national network of doctors. is, is kind of crazy when it's all to treat one thing. Can you talk a little bit about his relationship with the dermatologist, Steven Victor, too, because he also sent girls to see him. He had a, relationship with this guy, Stephen Victor, for a few years.

And there is this one email exchange where they appear. to be arguing over money, where Stephen Victor essentially says, you know, I, I have kept quiet about treating your girlfriends for free. I haven't spoken to the media. And in exchange, like, you refused to invest in my projects. And he's, you know, upset about that. And so I reached out to him asking like, hey, what? What did you mean by that?

And he was like, yeah, this wasn't really like a codified agreement, essentially. Like, I didn't say I wouldn't talk to the press. in exchange for treating Epstein's girlfriends for free. That's hard to understand it. What's in it for him? And this Jeffrey Epstein did, in fact, back his, I think, cosmeceuticals company that he wanted to start up. Yeah, I mean, it seems it seems fairly clear that there was. there was some form of financial incentive involved. Yeah. So.

what did you feel at the end of writing the piece? I mean, I was very disturbed as a reader, but what was it like actually, by the time you'd finished writing it. and you understood how big and how organized and frankly, how sinister. it was? It's an interesting question. Because this piece was the result of sort of, you know, spending ten days. completely buried in these, you know, thousands. and thousands of emails,

that and you sort of feel like you're taking that swim. and the cesspool of humanity as, as a result. And you kind of. Yeah, I remember texting all my friends being like, I feel like I have to take a shower after I file this story. Yeah. It's not it's not necessarily. You don't. necessarily, come away from reading. Jeffrey Epstein emails with, positive view of humanity.

I will say that, and especially as a New Yorker, you know, somebody born and raised in New York, as I am, you kind of just walk around wondering, like, how did so many people know about. or suspects, so much. for so long? Well, it's a very it's a very interesting way. into the Epstein story, and I really recommend that people read it.

Anyway, E.J. Dixon, thank you for joining us. And congrats on the piece. Thank you so much for having me. Well, this was a bonus episode of the Database podcast. I do hope you enjoyed it and well, write and let me know what you think. Put a comment on YouTube. Don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast for moment. by moment updates on whatever is going on out there,

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