How Tucker Carlson Could Steal Crown From Trump | The Daily Beast Podcast

He's having a tremendous amount of influence here, and not just on this current presidential administration, but just on viewers and listeners, and people are taking their cues from him. And I think that's what that's what matters. He's more than just a podcaster. He's more than a media figure. I think I really think he's kind of a movement leader at this point. I think he has bigger ambitions and broader aims than just, being, you know, beating Joe Rogan in the podcast game. I'm trying to Kohl's this is the Daily Beast podcast. And today we're going to be talking to someone who has enormous, enormous.

influence over Donald Trump and his cabinet. And he's sort of hiding in plain sight. We know he has influence, but to really understand the depth. of his influence, to understand the history of his influence, we are talking to the author of a new book about Tucker Carlson. Jason Lee has spent the last three years writing about Tucker Carlson. He knew him back in his magazine days, and what he unfolds.

is a really remarkable story of a man struggling in media, dying to be at the center of everybody's attention. He's tried MSNBC, he's tried CNN, he's tried dancing with the stars, he's tried to be a game show host. And what does he settle upon after his Fox News fiasco, where he gets fired as part of the Dominion settlement?

He creates Tucker Carlson Media, snuggles back into bed. with a man he loathes who, in the Dominion emails. It becomes clear he's relieved he's never going to have to think about Donald. Trump again. He snuggles right back up to him and uses Donald Trump. to create the kind of conservative world. that Tucker thinks we should all live in, and that it should be like. Viktor Orban's Hungary and a little bit like Putin's Russia. It's alarming.

It's scary, and it's very well researched. By Jason Angeli. Jason Angeli. this is how much I've just got post-it notes. all over this riveting book on Tucker Carlson. Many congratulations. It's obviously taken you in this and for your life, you will never get back. That is very true. Thanks for reminding me. Yeah. Let's start by you explaining quite.

why Tucker Carlson is as important. as he has become to Donald Trump. He's he's an advisor to Trump. I think that's important to understand. During Trump's first presidency, he was an advisor through the television, through his Fox News show. I mean, he didn't spend a lot of time socializing with Trump off air. or even talking to Trump off air. He was he was one of the few Fox hosts at the time who didn't, you know, kind of love his access and exploit his access to the Oval Office.

Tucker realized that he could drive government decision making, drive policy. making just by communicating with Trump through the television. Through his show, he knew Trump was watching. He would structure his monologues. He would book his guests, all with an eye towards influencing the president. And, you know, he had a lot of success on that. He would, scuttle various personnel appointments. At one point, he was very instrumental in convincing Trump. to call off a military strike against Iran. He was he was someone who Jared Kushner told white House staffers,

you have to watch Tucker Carlson Tonight. if you're going to work in this white House. He was he was that influential. It's mind blowing that that's how people communicated with the president. And and in the book, you also talk about how Trump would call Tucker Carlson. And Tucker Carlson didn't like taking the calls. He would try and get off the calls as fast as he could. Can you just tell us. a little bit more about that before we go back to why he's important? Well, I think he was he was wary of Trump personally,

and he didn't want to get too close to him personally, you know, or Sean Hannity, he would talk to Trump all the time. At one point, he was he was called the shadow chief of staff because he was. so, you know, just involved and kind of in, in things in the white House off air. Tucker. Was I think he thought that if you got too close to Trump, you'd ultimately be destroyed by that. He watched what happened to Roger Stone, who was a friend of his at one point. You know, when Trump when he would talk to Trump on the phone, I think he was he was worried that the calls were being recorded either.

by Trump or by an intelligence service. He tried to keep his part of the conversation to a minimum. And then there were instances when Trump would call him and he would. let the call go to voicemail, which was, you know, kind of the ultimate flex. You know, I mean, ironically or paradoxically, like that. actually made Trump, I think, like him more and respect him more. that sort of hard to get acts that Tucker was playing. And in a weird way, it actually made him more influential. The fact that he wasn't sort of, you know, at the president's like, you know, Beck and Beck and call.

and Trump, I think respected him for that in a, in a way. Right. You've actually got a line here that said he didn't want to get too close. to Trump, concluding that everyone who did like his and Trump's. mutual friend Roger Stone, who'd been convicted of seven felony. accounts for trying to obstruct a federal investigation into Trump's. 2016 campaign, was ultimately destroyed by the association. I mean, it's just such a good observation, both of Tucker's.

and of yours, to pull out about him, because so many people. from his first administration ended up going to jail or really not. being able to work in anything serious again. Yeah, although they've all been pardoned now. So. Well, that's. true, I know, because who foresaw that Donald Trump would come back? So he's communicating with Donald Trump through his top at his Fox News show. And then comes the Dominion battle, where Fox says that the Dominion voting machines have been faulty,

that this is part of why Trump should have actually won the election. The Fox News hosts no, that's not true. Dominion takes them to court and wins the case. And in that case, will you explain some of the emails. that come out, which are deeply embarrassing to Tucker? And ultimately, as part of the settlement, which we learned from Michael Wolf's. book, The Fool, Tucker is the sacrificial lamb. He's part of the the settlement, although, I mean, oh, that's what Tucker thinks.

I mean, that's what he told Michael Wolf. I don't know if there's evidence for that beyond Tucker thinking that, but I mean, that's that's a separate issue. I mean, the Dominion suit in discovery, it produced a trove of text. messages and emails that were being sent among Fox executives. Fox talent. Tucker was included in that. And he was, as those, you know, text messages and emails revealed, you're very angry at Trump, very angry at Trump for losing the like. He thought he thought Trump lost the election. He, thought it was Trump's fault.

He was angry at Trump for, you know, being a sore loser for promoting these conspiracy theories. And, you know, and I mean, one thing. I think it actually is important to say about those texts and those emails. Tucker was actually one of the few Fox hosts. who didn't really go along with those conspiracy theories on air. I mean, he didn't he didn't advance them a lot on his own. And in one instance, he actually shot one down in a pretty prominent way. He took on Sidney Powell, who was a lawyer who was promoting. these conspiracy theories, and he he debunked her on air.

And, unlike, you know, other Fox hosts who were promoting this stuff, Tucker wasn't. So there wasn't as great of a disconnect between what Tucker was saying. privately about Trump and what he was saying on air. That said, some of the the terms we use to describe Trump, you know, as a demonic force, things like that. I mean, he would never. would have said anything like that on air, or so they revealed. You know, Tucker's true thoughts at the time, about about Donald Trump, about the, the legitimacy of the 2020 election,

about what happened on January 6th and how it was, you know, Trump's fault. All of this came out in the Dominion, case. And it was it was embarrassing for Tucker. And it was, you know, embarrassing for the entire network. Well, and there was also, an email, I think that said, and I'm not quite sure. where it is in the book, and I don't want to hold up our conversation by finding it, but where he says that he will just be grateful. never to have to think about Donald Trump again. Yeah, he he I think, like everybody else. after January 6th, thought that Trump was going to disappear.

And and he was. Yeah, he was celebrating that, he, you know, he, he looked back on the four years of Trump's first presidency. and he said, you know, in another one of these text messages. that nothing had been accomplished. And it was a waste. And he was glad that Trump was exiting the stage. And he could he could focus on other people and other things. Yes. I found the quote, we are very, very close to being able to ignore Trump most nights. I truly can't wait.

So it seems doubly extraordinary. that Tucker Carlson went from someone who was a Trump skeptic who ignored. the president's calls from time to time, though he did take them at other times. But he was he was mindful of not getting caught into the president's. circle, that he should then. become so important to Trump, too. Yeah. Well, I think I mean, I think a few things happened. I think one. and I think probably the biggest factor in this is that he was fired from Fox.

And, you know, whether he was fired. as part of the Dominion settlement or not, like, I don't think we know that. But he lost his job there and then and in the process of losing his job, he lost his built in audience. I mean, at Fox, basically anyone who goes on at 8:00 on Fox. is going to have millions of viewers, and you're. Jesse Waters is like a perfect example of that, right? You know, Roger Ailes has talked about how he could put a dead raccoon on the air. that would, you know, get ratings like that's just sort of how powerful Fox is. So Tucker lost that, and he needed to, build an audience on his own.

And he needed to, you know, stay relevant and get attention and one way he has done. that is he is attached himself at the hip. to Trump in a way that he never would have in the First Presidency. And you know, when you say he's a Trump skeptic, I mean, he was a Trump skeptic personally. I mean, ideologically, he was he was a huge booster of Trump. And, you know, I think what Tucker, what Tucker was trying to do was. he was trying to promote Trumpism without Trump himself. And Tucker, in a weird way, became actually more of an ideological.

standard bearer for the MAGA movement than Trump, because Tucker was consistent. I mean, Trump, you know, was all over the place on various issues. Tucker had a real consistent and coherent ideological line. And I think when he when he would criticize Trump on air, it was because Trump was deviating from that line. So Tucker was, you know, by by no means was he, you know, frequently critical or that skeptical of Trump on air. He just kind of sort of tried to pretend that Trump himself didn't exist this.

the second time around, though, he has, I mean, he has embraced Trump. He's he's, you know, kind of relished his role in the inner circle. I mean, during the 2024 presidential campaign, he he might as well have been part of Trump's campaign. He would he would speak at rallies, at Trump rallies. He spoke at the Republican National Convention. You know, behind the scenes, he was, a really key advisor. He was, I think, probably one of the two most influential voices.

promoting JD Vance during the Veep stakes. He and Don Jr were in, in, in Donald Trump's. ear, telling him he should pick Vance. He obviously got his way on there and he was someone. that, you know, Trump I think, you know going Trump, Trump. Just listen to him. I mean, Trump wanted to hear what he had to say. I mean, he didn't he didn't win every argument. And there were times where Trump would not take Tucker's advice, but he was certainly someone who had a seat at the table. But Jason Trump is notoriously vindictive.

against people who he feels have been anti him. He must have seen the emails that came out during the Dominion, case. And of course, they settled for $750 million, almost $1 billion. And at least the way Michael Wolff. writes it in his book The Fall about Fox News, the head of Tucker Carlson was important to the Dominion people. So can you explain the rapprochement between Tucker and Trump.

after Tucker's, dislike of Trump. becomes very public? Well, I mean, you're never really fully out of Trump world, right? I mean, there have been countless examples of people who have said horrible things. about him and then managed to make amends and be invited back in. I mean, I mean, first among them, J.D. Vance, you know, who like Hitler. And Tucker, I think, had to go through a similar process. It certainly helped that when Tucker was sort of,

you know, trying. to achieve this rapprochement with Trump, they both had this. kind of they had they had mutual interests that were aligned. And I think the the first one was like really sticking it to Fox. because Trump was angry at Fox because after January. 6th, you know, Rupert Murdoch tried to disappear Trump. You know, he was, I think, in one of these text messages. or emails that came out in Dominion case, he said, yeah, we're going to try to turn Trump into a non-person. So Fox stopped covering him. At the same time, Fox started to boost Ron DeSantis,

and tried to make him into a plausible presidential candidate. And Trump was angry about that. Tucker was, you know, also angry at Fox for firing him. And, I mean, the first thing that they collaborated on was, the first GOP presidential debate was being broadcast on Fox. Fox really wanted Trump to participate, because obviously, you know, that's a big help for ratings. They they lobbied him. They went to Bedminster, they went to Mar-A-Lago, various, you know, on air talent, off air executives.

Excuse me, were talking to Trump about this. Trump kind of strung them along saying he was considering it. All the while, Trump was talking to Tucker about doing a show with him. And then on the night of the. the GOP first presidential debate, which Trump skipped, he releases a one on one interview with Tucker on, you know, Twitter. It's a sort of service. counterprogramming and and depress ratings even further for Fox. So you know, that was that was kind of the first thing. they were able to collaborate on. I think Tucker, even, you know, even before he was fired from Fox,

I think he was sort of starting to tiptoe a little bit closer to Trump. just because. Tucker I mean, Tucker does have, an ideological project that he's working. on, and he does have a vision for the country that he wants to achieve. And I think he was looking around the, the landscape of Republicans. who are trying to replace Trump inherit his supporters. You know, first among them DeSantis. And he wasn't impressed, and he didn't think any of these guys. could get elected president. And I think it started to dawn on him.

that, you know, Trump was not a spent force. And he might be the best vehicle for, you know, what Tucker hoped to achieve. So even even before he got fired, he was he was, you know, making sort of making a a little bit nicer with Trump. Your Don Jr, who he is close to, he he went up to Maine and visited Tucker. And at that point, Tucker had kind of been refusing Trump's entreaties. And Don Jr talked to him, and not long after that, Tucker went down. to Bedminster, for a golf tournament and was photographed with Trump.

And they had a good meeting. And I think that was kind of the start of, them, you know, rekindling their relationship. Okay. So they bonded over a dislike of Fox News. and a sense of betrayal by Fox News. And then, I mean, quite insightful of, of Tucker. to realize that Donald Trump still had more life in him. because he'd be pretty much written off by everybody at that stage. Yeah. I mean, Tucker, you know, I think in two instances has been sort.

of a little bit of ahead of the curve in terms of, you know, recognizing Donald Trump's potential. I mean, the real the key to him becoming successful at Fox. and rising from kind of he was like on the third tier, the backbench. Yeah, he was a weekend host. the weekend host, you know, wasn't getting good airtime. And when Trump announced his candidacy in 2015, I mean, I people. I think forget this now. But Fox was not supportive. I mean, Murdoch himself was personally dismissive. The pundits on Fox did not think that this was a serious candidacy. They were, you know, they were they would criticize him on air.

And Fox had this, like this basic television problem in that they wanted. to talk about Trump because Roger Ailes knew that Donald Trump was good ratings, but they couldn't they couldn't sort of produce. a compelling debate segment because they didn't. really have anyone to take Trump's side. And, Tucker, you know, among all these conservative pundits, he was one of the few. who took Donald Trump seriously when he announced his campaign. I mean, even though he had personal qualms. about Trump, he recognized that a candidate.

who ran on, you know, on nativism and white grievance, he saw that there was actually a lane. for that kind of candidate in the Republican primary. And he would be willing to say that on air. And because, you know, he's, he's camera ready, he can put two sentences together. He started getting more airtime that way. So, you know, one. And in 2016, he was he saw sort of Trump's potential before others did. And then yes, I think you're right about kind of Trump's comeback. Tucker was a little bit ahead of the curve. And recognizing that he was not the Trump was not a spent force.

And also because, you know, people may forget that. Tucker was at one point on MSNBC, he was also at CNN. And in a weird way, he finds his home. for his theatrical and performance abilities at Fox. And now, of course, since being fired from Fox, he's gone off on his own. He has Tucker Media, Tucker Carlson Media, What is his role now? I know he's an adviser, but is he also raking it in.

and just prepared to say anything at this point? I mean, one of the really interesting questions you raised in the introduction. to your book, and you obviously spent time with him as a young man. You worked with him at one point. All his friends from those days are asking, Does Tucker believe what he's saying now, or is it just, a way of making a lot of money and getting a lot of attention?

And does he also eventually have presidential ambitions himself? Yeah. Well, I mean, I, you know, I, I never I was not friends with Tucker, right. Yeah. I, I, he's someone that I've known for a long time. just because it's a small world of political journalists. And he's someone who's always known everybody. I think, people who knew him a lot better. than I did during those days, I think, or, you know, they're really genuinely, I think, kind of upset by his status, his transformation. And, you know, for the past, you know, almost like ten years or so, I think.

whenever you get, you know, two or more political journalists together in a room, I mean, inevitably the conversation will at some point. come around to Tucker and sort of asking that question, you know, what? What happened? Does he really think these things? Did he think these things back when we were friends. and he just didn't say them, or did he say them? We didn't notice. You know, I can't assess whether he really believes these things or not. It's, it certainly seems at this point that he does. You know, maybe he started off saying them cynically and it was pose.

But I think like anything, if you. if you say it enough and especially if you're rewarded for it, I think, you know, it's only human nature. to eventually kind of conform to those views. I think what matters, though, is that he is saying them. and that people are listening to them and he's influence. He's having a tremendous amount of influence here, and not just on this current presidential administration, but just on viewers and listeners and people or, you know, taking their cues from him. And I think that's what that's what matters. He's more than just a podcaster. He's more than a media figure.

I think. I really think he's kind of a movement leader at this point. And I think one of the reasons I wanted to write the book was, I don't know if I don't know if that's fully understood by most people. I think there's a tendency you know, especially among liberals, to. just kind of dismiss him and ignore him and think that he's just, you know, a podcaster who has an audience, but it's all about clicks and downloads. And he, you know, that's that's he's just saying this stuff for money and ratings. And I actually don't think that's the case.

I think he has enough money. He his ratings are great. He doesn't have to worry that much. I think he has he has bigger ambitions and broader aims than just, being, you know, beating Joe Rogan in the podcast game, Booker and Trump. also have a sort of. showbiz showmanship thing in common. I mean, Tucker. was, Dancing with the stars, which he took fantastically. seriously, even though he was the first person to be eliminated. Can you just talk a little bit about. that desire to.

Well, when I was growing up, it would have been called showing off. But the desire to show off the desire, really for an audience. What's that about me really wanted to stay in television, you know, his his cable news career at that point and hit a pretty serious rough patch. And he was on this MSNBC, MSNBC show that no one watched. And I think he kind of realized that his future at MSNBC was was in doubt. And he actually tried to pivot to to be, a nonpolitical person on television.

You know, he did dancing With the stars as a way, I think, to kind of introduce himself to America as someone who wasn't, you know, wearing the bow tie and sitting at the desk debating James Carville. You know, beyond that, he tried to become a game show host. He filmed these, these game show pilots. And I think he. he envisioned a career in television that had nothing to do with politics. And, you know, I think it's similar to Trump in that. they both just they they want to be on TV. They, they take a lot of, they take a lot of pleasure.

and solace from being in front of a camera. And, and they also have an ability to just, just kind of deal. with any setback and roll with it and keep on plugging away. And there's a almost like a long game quality to them. that, you know, in another context would be admirable, right? That they, they just sort of keep their nose to the grindstone. and keep on working and, and are never they're never they're never embarrassed. They're never they really don't feel a sense of shame. I mean, it was funny when Tucker did Dancing With the Stars.

I mean, this was not too far removed from his his magazine Glory days. And I think that a lot of people who you know, knew him in that iteration. were just, like, horrified that here's this little, you know, it was bad enough. that he was doing crossfire or having this sort of bad show on MSNBC. But this guy's going on dancing. with the stars with the, you know, these third tier celebrities. and I Tucker, you know, for I don't think he didn't feel that he was. he was just like, this is, you know, this is a way to stay in the game. This is this I think this is kind of fun. And and Trump I think has, has that same, that same quality.

And they both and they both are charismatic and they both are, you know, they're showmen and they're capable as entertainers. I mean, the genesis of the book was, you know, after after. January 6th, I was talking to my agent about a different kind of book. And it was going to be about sort of the Republican Civil War. that was about to take place because Donald Trump was, you know, obviously not going to ever run for anything again. And I was yeah, we were right about that. And I was I was talking about the various people.

who were going to try to inherit Trump's supporters and win them over, whether it was, you know, Ron DeSantis or Josh Hawley or Ted Cruz. And I was saying to my agent, like, the thing about it is these guys can stake. out as many anti-immigration policies as they want, as many anti-trade policies, like they're never going to win over Trump supporters because they don't. have his entertainment abilities, they don't have his charisma. And just as a as an aside, I said something like, you know, really. the only person who could do that is Tucker Carlson. And that that became the book, basically.

But yeah, but next, next to Trump, you know, after Trump, I think Tucker. is the the most kind of entertaining, charismatic figure on the right. And I think certainly someone like JD Vance and I think that that that's. one of the things that makes him, so, so relevant. Well, perhaps he'll have to fight Megan Kelly for an. she got that, which that would be quite a battle royale. Yeah. All right. So let's get into what he actually does believe that and these things.

And you talk in the book about how he spends a week. with Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary, really absorbing a lot of what Obama has done in Hungary. You know, Hungary has become and Viktor Orban have become this, you know, obsession of, conservatives in the United States. I mean, they view they view him in his country as a model. And I think Tucker was really responsible for that. Back in 2021, he took his Fox show to Budapest for a week.

And you basically did like an infomercial for Orban and his, you know, his his post. liberal kind of neo authoritarian government, presenting it as a model to American conservatives. of especially on the heels of Trump's first presidency, of what a real, you know, a real conservative leader could achieve when it comes. to restricting immigration and cracking down on the press and, and, and then using using government as a cudgel against your enemies. And I think there were already there were a number of conservative.

intellectuals who had, you know, kind of seized on Orban. at that time and were making their own pilgrimages to Budapest. But Tucker was one who he was able to kind of bring that. to the conservative mainstream. And and that was something that he did a lot on Fox. And, you know, he continues to do he takes these. pretty fringe views that exist on the far, far, far, far right, whether, you know, there are arguments or stories or conspiracy theories, and he smuggles them into the mainstream and he places them in.

the conservative mainstream, and then they they gain an audience with people. who I think if they had encountered them in their kind of their raw form, they might dismiss them. But because Tucker brings them to them and translate them, translates them. and makes them more palatable and seem more reasonable, they they gain purchase. And, you know, I think Orban is a perfect example of that. And the degree to which, I think the Second Trump Amendment. administration is using Orban as something of a playbook.

Orban's playbook is their own. I think Tucker had a significant role in that. Okay. I have a quote which I wanted to read. This, because. it's also it's also so odd, the idea that Tucker's audience. would find a week long trip to Hungary interesting. It's not what you would think of in terms of a ratings driver, but but one of the things he says that you quote from, he says you don't have to watch your country collapse. He said, you don't have to have leaders who hate the population.

or divide their own people against each other, who make the country worse, who open the borders, who increase crime, who encourage people to live on the sidewalk and do drugs. If there's any lesson in talking to Viktor Orban, maybe that's it, which is really quite persuasive when you hear him saying it. with this little bow tie and these kind of preppy haircuts and these shirt. Yeah, yeah. No. And it's so funny to watch those episodes because his interview with Orban is,

you know, the actual sort of interview he has is such a dud. because, you know, Orban or Orban is not a charismatic person. And you really Tucker has to come on at the end of it. and basically kind of tell his audience what they just saw, because the exchange with Orban doesn't do that. But that's but that's so often what Tucker does, he kind of takes this thing. that seems kind of nuts are not all that appealing. And he reframes it and, you know, presents it. in such a way that people are like, oh, okay, that that makes sense. And I think perhaps makes his audience feel more intelligent, too,

because nobody wants to sit and listen to Viktor Orban knocking on. But as you say, the repackaging by a kind of. jolly, Tucker Carlson makes it more appealing. Can you also talk to about his interview that he does with Putin, where he goes. and he thinks that he's going to get Evan Gersh, Wittes, who is a reporter for The Wall Street Journal. And he's been, imprisoned in, in Russia, where he thinks he's going to somehow spring him from jail.

Yeah. Well, you know, Tucker had he he had very much taken sort of Putin's side, I think, in, in Russia's, war with Ukraine and Russia's. bad relations with the United States when Joe Biden was president. He would he would stick up for Putin on air. And then after he was fired from Fox, he continued to. kind of tow the Russian line. And he was rewarded for that. by being granted this, this audience with Putin for an interview.

And, and I look, I don't, I mean, I think, you know, I think any Western journalists would, would do an interview with like, yeah, you make that point in the book, who wouldn't want to interview Putin? Yeah, that's a great get right. And it's fantastic. But I mean, the problem was though, that Tucker, you know, I think in part maybe because he just wasn't prepared for Putin. and his Putin's filibustering. and kind of the history lesson about Russia and Ukraine. But also, I don't know if you wanted to ask hard questions of Putin and. and the interview was just, you know, it was a it was a softball interview.

And it allowed Putin to just steamroll Tucker. Tucker did have this, you know, ulterior motive of trying to free Evan. Gershwin's The Wall Street Journal reporter. who had been imprisoned on trumped up charges. And, you know, I mean, kudos to Tucker for, you know, trying to do that, you know, and he told Putin, you know, this. Why why are you keeping this kid? It's I mean, it was a very I think like the humane thing of Tucker to do. And and I think he had had conversations with Putin's advisors. before the interview, and I think he thought there was a real possibility that he would be able.

to return home with Dershowitz, which, you know, honestly, like. I think he probably wanted to do it just out of, you know, being like a decent human being, at least on this instance. But also, you know, Gershwin's work for the Wall Street. Journal and Rupert Murdoch. And it would be a wonderful thing, I'm sure, for Tucker to bring this, this, this Murdoch employee home. And would Rupert Murdoch couldn't do that himself. So there's a little bit of a one upsmanship game going on as well. And also because Rupert had fired him. But why will someone like Tucker.

And this is something. I really don't understand about this new group of conservatives. Why are they pro-Putin? There's a through. line in Tucker's career of just contrarianism. And I think that is part of it. He also is very, very, very skeptical of American power. and, America's presence in the world. He really doesn't think that the U.S. should be.

and should be a presence, you know, across the globe and should be, you know, just engaging. in any kind of conflicts, ideological, militarily or otherwise. And I think that he questions why the U.S. and Russia should be enemies. He also, I think, has, kind of an attraction. to Putin for the same reasons he has an attraction to Orban. Is this, you know, this sort of, admiration. for Putin's strength and his,

his hard line and his authoritarianism for, for, you know, lack of a better word, I think there's part of him that thinks that Putin. is the kind of strong leader that that the United States could use. I mean, given his. conservative beginnings, it seems almost incomprehensible. that he would switch to the Russian side of things. in the invasion of Ukraine and also in the in the lifestyle.

that Russian ordinary Russian people live, that they have no freedom of expression. They have terrible economic situation, horrible housing. I mean, I don't and I still find it very difficult and very naive of, of him to think that just because Putin presents as a strong man, that that's somehow an answer for a country that, at least in America, still believes in free speech. Yeah. Well, I think that, I mean, even more embarrassing than the Putin interview were the,

the segments, the recorded segments he did for his, his video podcast. in, in Moscow, where, you know, he would go to a Russian supermarket and, you know, marvel at how, you know, all the stuff that was available. and how cheap it was. And he went into the Moscow subway and talked about how beautiful it was, and there were no homeless people. And there is no crime. I mean, either he is just completely naive or he's, you know, he's a propagandist and he knows that people in Russia.

are miserable and, and, you know, poor and have no free speech. And he's just ignoring that. And he's, you know, he's like Walter Terada and like presenting this, completely. false picture to, to serve kind of his own and his own ideological purposes. But, but is that something that he wants here that he wants Trump. I understand they're all in love with Putin. I think Putin is a strong guy and Auburn's a strong guy. But they got seriously want the First Amendment. crushed in America, do you think? Or is that what they're actually after?

Do you think they want a place where you have oligarchs. who essentially help themselves to the country's natural riches, and everybody else is is basically poor? That's a good question. I mean, Tucker, you know, it's interesting he is not. he's not someone who's on board with Trump's, you know, embrace of, you know, these tech elites and kind of embracing AI and things like that.

He is very skeptical of consumer capitalism. He's very skeptical of Wall Street. He's very skeptical of financiers. I think he's very skeptical of, people in Silicon Valley. So I, you know, when when you when you sort of when you bring. in that part of the equation with Russia and oligarchs and the like. I don't know, Tucker. He might not he might not sort of be on board for that. I do think that he seems to believe that you should you he, he likes Trump using the state to,

exact revenge or to, you know, put his put put his enemies or perceived foes in their place. I think that's something that he supports. And I think there's some, you know, analogs to Russia in that respect. But but I do I do think that his, his critique. of, of consumer capitalism, it makes, it makes sort of. some of the things Trump is doing now, I think he doesn't support those.

And he's not incredibly outspoken about it, but he doesn't. He you know, he's not someone who's going to celebrate David Sacks. You know, I think he probably has some some real questions and concerns about. about him and about sort of this project to, you know, embrace AI and, and go into business and relationships with these sort of folks. And is that because they are very skeptical of him. and think he's he's he's just a kind of, you know, performing clown online to drive. clicks, or, you know, they think that he's, he's dangerous.

and that he's going to lead a pitchfork mob of their tours. So it might be less less of these a performing clown that he's. someone who could actually, you know, endanger their project. So let's let's talk a little bit about his background, too, because it's so ironic that his father was actually president. of the American Public Broadcasting, something that actually Donald Trump's,

second time round and the second administration has withdrawn funding for. So tell us a little bit about his background, too, because his mother left him when he was a little boy, which must have left an indelible mark on him. Yeah. His you know, his his father was this remarkable kind of self. Creation. A guy who was an orphan who, was a juvenile delinquent. in high school, got kicked out of high school, eventually became a successful television. newsman, local TV newsman in Southern California.

His mother comes or came from an extremely wealthy and prominent. California family, the Miller family. Henry Miller was her, you know, great great great great grandfather. who I think was the largest landowner in the United States in the 19th century. Based on, the parents get together, they have a short kind of intense, but ultimately failed marriage. And the his mother got sort of became involved in, you know, the sort of the Los Angeles music scene, the art scene.

A lot of drugs. And ultimately the marriage falls apart. And she left the family. She left Tucker and his little brother Buckley. and and the fall and hurt his father. Dick had custody of the kids, which I think was really unusual in the 70s. A single father. Yeah. It's very Kramer versus Kramer. Yeah, very Kramer versus Kramer. And the dad. Dick was, you know, he. I mean, it was a very sort of male household. And, you know, he let the kids kind of, you know, he parented in a fairly laissez.

faire style and at the same at the same time. He was a very, you know, he was he himself was very conservative. He was very much a Reagan conservative. And I think he, he raised the kids that way. And the mom's more kind of hippie liberal influence. It wasn't there at all since she was gone, but it was something to, you know, kind of, work against. Right? Like she was like a cautionary tale for the kids. And, you know, after she. After she lost custody of the kids to to Dick. I mean, I think and then I think Tucker was eight when that happened.

I don't think he ever saw her again. And, I think they talked maybe a few times, but he had never saw her again. And then when she died, she was living in France at the time with, with an artist. She left, Tucker and his his little brother Buckley. She left, each $1 and their will. And that was, you know, kind of the ultimate, Screw you, I think, and and what did she what was the significance of that?

Do you think that that she thought they weren't worth anything? I mean, what she came from an incredibly wealthy background. She leaves them a dollar each. So it's a symbol of something, because why leave them anything? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it's worse than leaving them nothing, right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I and I, I mean, the book is. Yeah. I mean, it's not like a biography per se, because, you know, most of the book is about Tucker's professional career. I mean, I, I think if I were writing like,

a, I just don't know if he's, like, interesting enough or in some ways. significant enough to actually warrant a full fledged biography. If you were, I think I would have spent probably more time trying to tease that. that read aloud of just how much this impacted his views. and what actually happened there. But but it certainly it can't it can't have helped things. And and for a long time he didn't ever really acknowledge his mother publicly. It's only been in the past, you know, 8 or 9 years. that he's he's talked about it and, and told people about it.

I think for a long time. His dick second wife, was an heiress to the Swanson and frozen food fortune. And and she actually became. I was definitely to her stepmother, I think actually formally adopted him. And he would refer to, her as his mother. It was only sort of more recently that he's kind of acknowledged. that his his biological mother was this other person and that, you know, she was not part of his life. So, you know, I, I, I don't know, that's sort. it's a better question for Tucker shrink if he has one.

And then for me, I would love to sit down with Tucker Carlson shrink. But but it does shed some light on him that his mother left when he was eight. And she left him $1 and and his brother $1 in. her will when she came from an extremely wealthy family. Yeah. You know, and it may explain why he, he is. building an audience. and his own media company, and he wants to feel financially successful.

And you said earlier he has enough money. My experience with people who have a lot of money is it's never enough. They always want more money. They always want more money. So you mentioned in the book and you talked about it earlier. There's a moment where Don junior goes up to see Tucker in Maine, and we should just say that he lives half his life in Florida and half his life. The summer months in Maine. Don junior goes up for a hunting weekend. They go fishing and puttering around together and,

Tucker comes, comes down to Bedminster and sort of re ingratiate himself. with, Donald Trump is very influential. in getting JD Vance chosen as, as Veep. Does Tucker want to be a politician himself? You said that you thought he was now leading, a movement. Does he want to have the responsibility of of being president,

or do you think he would be a vice president for JD Vance? I think, Tucker, I don't think he has a burning ambition to be a politician. I don't think he's like Bill Clinton. He's not someone who's spent his whole life trying to become president. I do think, though, that he he has things. he wants to see, achieved in this country. And, you know, right now he has a very good situation in the sense that, you know, when we talk about how closely is Donald Trump, he's closer to JD Vance. I mean, they have a real, I think, ideological and personal bond.

And right now, JD Vance is in complete lockstep with Tucker. On sort of the things that Tucker believes and the things Tucker wants. And he is a fantastic vehicle for Tucker because he has this influence, that said, I mean, I think I could imagine two scenarios. in which Tucker would, you know, run for something himself. And, and the first would be if J.D. Vance started to diverge from Tucker and no longer, you know, advance the same, views or support of the same policies.

I could see him maybe wanting to do it himself. And then the second scenario, and I think this is actually probably more. plausible, is if Tucker concluded that J.D. Vance just doesn't have the political talent you need to get elected president, and that therefore, you know, the things that Tucker wants to see achieve. And you can't you can't do it. You can't achieve those through J.D. Vance. And, you know, I would imagine that he would. he would work for someone else that he could, influence and be an advisor to. And then your job is kind of his own cat's paw.

And and maybe there's someone out there like that. Maybe Bobby Kennedy, junior, I don't know, but if he couldn't find that person, then yes, I could definitely see him saying, all right, I'm just going to do it myself. Yes. One of the other things I should mention is in the book, Howard Luck, Nick has reassured people that RFK junior will not get the Health. and Human Services Ministry, and in fact, it's Tucker who ends up influencing Trump. to give him that role, where he has been enormously influential in a very short.

span of time, and not for the good. Yeah. I mean, during the during the transition, Tucker was someone. who had a hand in a number of personnel appointments. I mean, he was he was making arguments on behalf of people they were considering. whether it was Bobby Kennedy Jr or Tulsi Gabbard or even sub cabinet positions. He had he had people in mind. And, you know, there are all sorts of people. banging on Trump's door and saying, you should pick this person, you should pick that person. And, you know, and there were people, I think, that Tucker.

suggested, who weren't picked, but there were a number who were. And, and, you know, he he has these very tight. relationships with a number of people throughout the administration. So how seriously should we take it when he does things like interview. and give Nick Fuentes a platform? Well, I think we should take it seriously for a couple of reasons. One, I do think he's introducing Nick Fuentes to an audience that maybe. didn't know Nick Fuentes before, and he's introducing him in a way. that is almost serving as an endorsement of Fuentes. I mean, Tucker can do a tough interview.

And, you know, we saw and we saw that back when he had Ted Cruz on, in the run. up to the first, attack on Iran or Wolf, so far, the only attack against. if you're the first, you know, and he he kind of humiliated Cruz, on that show. because he just, he, you know, he was asking Cruz like, you know, how how. what's the population of around this country whose regime you want to topple? And Cruz didn't know. I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was embarrassing for Ted and you. He could have he could have done the same thing with Nick Fuentes. And he didn't. He had this very sort of cordial softball interview with him.

But I think what was interesting to me, at least about the Fuentes interview, was that that Tucker felt the need to have him on. because he had been very critical of Fuentes. and he had, you know, he dismissed him as know. he called him like a weird little gay kid living in his parents basement. And he he he said that he thought Fuentes was a, was a fed, that he was, you know, a government agent sort of designed to discredit right wing voices. And after he made those criticisms of Fuentes, Fuentes went on his own show.

and attacked Tucker and said that he was, you know, a poseur. and that he didn't really support, you know, MAGA and things like that. And they were having this feud. And if you sort of tracked it on social media, I mean, Tucker was losing. like Fuentes, his fans, these sort of disaffected. young men that call groupers vipers. Yeah. The the papers were turning against Tucker. And I think Tucker has has made. the calculus that to be successful.

in conservative media and beyond that in conservative politics. these days, you need you need the neo-Nazis like you can't. You have to have them in your corner. You have to have them, as your audience. You have to have them as your voters. And he had Fuentes on the show. He was extending an olive branch to Fuentes. He was trying to, I think, end their feud. And that, to me, was what was interesting because Tucker, you know, has, very finely tuned, professional and political radar,

and he's very good at skating to where the puck is going to be. And I think we've seen that, especially over the last decade. And the fact that he had Fuentes on and that he was so cordial to Fuentes, I think shows that he thinks that's where the energy is. in the conservative movement these days, which is really alarming. I mean, we should point out that Nick. Fuentes has some really, truly terrible, terrible views. Very openly racist. Anti horrible. Yeah. No, it's I mean it's it's and I mean disturbing views,

really disturbing views for anybody to hold in modern America. Yeah. And and I but that, that has. that has an audience and that has supporters. and that has especially among young people. And, I think, you know, Tucker is a is a real weathervane in that way. And that's why I think it's significant that he had Fuentes on, because Tucker's. been right about a lot of stuff in terms of what what conservatives believe. and what this where the movement is headed and the fact that he thinks.

someone like Fuentes is is important and someone he has to make peace with. I think that's a that's a troubling sign. Your brother is called Tucker. And there's a wonderful note in the acknowledgments where you say. that you had every time you texted him or emailed him, you had to make triple. sure that you weren't actually sending it, sending a missive to Tucker Carlson. Did you manage to do that? Yeah, I, I, I, I missed text people all the time,

but actually my wife, made me change Tucker. Carlson's entry in my phone to T Carlson, so it wouldn't say Tucker. So I wouldn't do that. And that that prevented me from sending, sending the wrong texts. That's very smart. So you didn't end up having a mike Wallace situation? No, no, not that I know of. At least. Well, I thought it was a very good detail. Well, it's an absolutely fascinating book. I really urge people to read it. It taught me a lot about someone who I know is important.

But I hadn't fully understood the, extent of his influence. And, well, I urge people to read it because it's alarming. where the puck is going, if you're right, and if Tucker's right that he's. skating towards it, then we all have a lot more to worry about. Then perhaps we thought, yeah. No, I think that's there. That's that's the that's the the disturbing part. Jason's angle. Thank you very much. Oh, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Well, if you weren't impressed by Tucker Carlson's influence. on the president, I hope that interview sets it in some context. And actually, I find it fascinating that that Tucker Carlson's. mother left him $1 when she died. What a weird statement to make to your son. Just an extraordinary statement. And also, what are Tucker's plans for the future? What does he want to be?

Jason makes the point that he's really the leader of a movement. He's just not a podcaster in a performer. He's the leader of a conservative political movement that has Viktor Orban. and to some extent, Vladimir Putin as the strongman that he admires. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us. and leave us a comment on what you think about Jason's. perspective on Tucker Carlson or what you think about Tucker Carlson.

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