How Trump Will Torture Tulsi Gabbard for Iran Leak | The Daily Beast Podcast

What we have to understand is Trump illusion. versus a reality on the ground. And maybe that's generous to call it Trump delusion. It's Trump misrepresentation. It's Trump, as he almost always does, portraying the world the way he has decided. it should be. I'm Joanna Coles, chief content officer of the Daily Beast, and you are watching or listening to the Daily Beast podcast.

Yesterday, I was shocked by hearing Donald Trump. say to a group of reporters on the white House lawn. that Iran and Israel. have been bombing each other so long they didn't know what the fuck. they were doing. I don't know, it still felt shocking to hear a president. drop the f bomb, even with everything Donald Trump has done. So who better to unpack it with again? But Michael Wolff, who's also going to talk about the intelligence. that's been leaked and the now two very different narratives. of what's happened, did we actually obliterate Iran's nuclear.

capabilities, or did we just kick the can down the road? Let's get into it. Michael's written four books on Donald Trump. He talks to people in the West Wing every day. So we have no time to waste. It. Michael, it's so exciting to have you here in the office. So much to discuss. And I know we dropped an emergency podcast on this yesterday, but I am still surprised that one can be shocked by Donald Trump. And yet I was shocked by hearing him say they don't know.

what the fuck they're doing to a group of press. Just felt very unpresidential. even from someone who feels consistently unpresidential. Yeah, I think you're a little, am I overreacting? Well, yeah, I know, but more importantly, I mean this, but. This is I mean, I found that perfectly in character. To expect anything else. Seems seems, Super naive.

Yeah. Foolish. Yeah. Hopeful. Oops. I mean. You know, I mean, I think what we saw there, I think he's he's, he's potentially. he was angry at that moment that this was coming undone. He had staged this. It was two absolutely to his specifications, you know, and I think we we we spoke yesterday and I and I, I had picked up, some of the conversations that he was having. with the various people, the many people he has constant phone calls with.

constantly the same phone call repeating himself endlessly. And the day before sort of Friday into, into Saturday, I mean, he was going on at some, some length. repeating himself about about how, how this had to be perfect. It had to be it had to be really on script. And, and he said, he said I'm and this, this, this was a good one in boom out.

And I think that's how he saw this. And he saw and he, he, he, he said to people, I want a perfect war. And, you know, I mean, in some sense he's responding to the whole MAGA. thing about endless wars and not knowing what what, you know, we get into these things, we don't know what we're doing. And, and we, our, our goals are not clear. So in, in a sense, this was a modern way.

You could say, of looking at how wars. should be fought rather than how they should not be fought. But of course, this was not he was not really thinking strategically. He was thinking showbiz, that this. was he was going to produce this, these great headlines. And he was thinking also about how does this play on television, which is where the majority of people will see it. And of course, when it's caught up in clips and put on social media. because he's always thinking about the audience.

Right, right. And he's always thinking about the bragging rights. So the bragging rights are going to be I, you know, I decided to do this. It was the right decision. I won the war. The war is over. Everything is great. Solve problems solved now. I mean, what we saw yesterday with, with with him, with the f bomb. was, you know, the fact that that this truce that that he claimed.

he put in place, he was the peacemaker, war. maker, peacemaker was coming apart. And so he was pissed. Right? So the ceasefire that he declared was going to happen. didn't even get off the ground. And then his word was obliterated when he came out and talked to people, followed by the three backup dancers, Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio. and JD Vance, that the Iranian nuclear capabilities have been obliterated. Well, I think that was the the the F bomb happened before that.

I mean, the f bomb. He said, yes, you're right. He said they had been obliterated, but the F bomb was really about. about Israel continuing to attack, Iran after the ceasefire. He said the Iranians and the Israelis have been at this so long, they've been bombing each other for so long, they don't know what the fuck they are doing. Right? Which. But he's since annoyed because he said that the facilities.

have been obliterated and now it appears as well. That's today's, we haven't heard an f bomb yet, but. believe me, in private, there are many, many, many f bombs going going off. So the leak of this intelligence. in the intelligence is devastating. I mean, the intelligence basically says. that this was all for nothing, that, that it changes, it accomplishes. nothing and it changes nothing that the,

that the Iranians are. instead of, instead of, of a few weeks away. from being able to assemble, a working nuclear. device are a few weeks plus. So, so this is, this is this contradicts. the entire narrative that he's tried to establish here. Okay. And to be fair, the general who gave the press conference.

with Pete Hegseth on Sunday after Pete Hegseth. repeated Trump's words that we have obliterated their nuclear capabilities. So. Well, wait a minute. It's a little too early to tell. We don't know yet. Then we have this, as you say, devastating leak, saying. that actually, this hasn't worked at all. All they've done is block the entrance to the facilities. It's under a pile of rubble. We have no idea if they've moved the enriched uranium,

and it looks like they're perfectly capable of creating a bomb. It's just pushed it down the road a few months. Right. And I mean, what we have to understand is, is, is Trump. illusion versus reality on the ground? And and maybe that's generous to call it Trump illusion. It's Trump misrepresentation. It's Trump as he almost always does, portraying the world the way he. has decided it should be. So.

do we know where the leak came from? Well, that's the other thing. Okay. So I mean, what's going to happen now is Trump. Trump is not going to say, oh, yeah, well, you know, this is a problem. We have to figure we have to figure this out. to figure this out, how to continue this campaign. If we truly want to end the Iranian nuclear ambition, this is what we have to do. He's not going to do that. He's going to instead blame,

someone for the fact that it's all turn ative and probably. correct version of reality is now. is now in the public in, you know, the the public now. can can judge for itself Trump reality, actual reality. Where did the leak did it come out on CNN first? I mean, CNN, New York Times had it first. He obviously also went after the press very heavily. just before he dropped the f bomb, saying, you know, CNN is a gutless,

they're gutless losers, the journalist that he has to watch them. because there's nothing else to watch. It's all fake news. I don't know why he would watch it if it is fake news, but, is he suggesting here that. this is just a sort of a press illusion or do they think that there is some. Well, he was. Community who's leaking? Well, there's. He he, he was suggesting that this was. a press, a or illusion. Or. Yes, or or or disinformation.

That was before the leak actually actually came out. So the, the leak in enlightenment, I mean, we really should, should focus on the, on what that is telling us, on how important it is. It is as, as so often happens. in government, the bureaucracy. rebelling against the. against politicians.

So it's the deep state. Well, it's. what he would call the deep state, and I would call it the bureaucracy. It's people who do this, people whose job is to actually know. what's going on, to actually manage the details. And, and. I think this was so extreme within the bureaucracy. We've obliterated this. We've solved the problem in all out. The presidents are dumb. I mean, JD Vance saying all the previous presidents were dumb for not having w o.

And then that must've irritated people in the administration. I mean, people, the civil servant. Right. And then and so and so this was somebody, this was somebody or a larger. the bureaucracy calling this out. No, this is this is the reality. This is what we actually see on the ground. Now the question is who. And and that's what's going on right now. There is an investigation that is going on.

They will try to find someone to blame. within the white House, within within the, the West Wing. What what they are saying, what they are saying. as of this morning, who this is being pinned on is. Is Tulsi the head of national intelligence? Yes. Now, whether that is true or not, I have no idea. And and it may very well be that the people that I've been speaking to. within the West Wing have no idea, but.

that is, you know, blame. Remember, blame doesn't actually have to be someone did anything. It's who you want to blame. Well, you said on Sunday that Tulsi Gabbard was toast, that she had come out. earlier, as we know, and said, actually, the Iranians don't have this capability. Donald Trump then reprimanded or. and completely contradicted her, undermining her in public. She then rolled back and said, oh, actually, they will have the capability in a few months, right? It's so it's always important.

In the Trump script, the fallback is always who to blame, who to blame. You just have to have someone, someone to blame. Tulsi is in is in the line of fire. So so she is the. She's she's the the useful stooge at this point. Well, and one can only imagine to your point. that you have said repeatedly on this podcast. that all the people around Trump, largely. men, hate him and they hate each other.

So you've got this sense of heightened conspiracy, and you must be thinking, or one must be thinking that Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio. and JD Vance are terrified the blame is going to fall on them. Absolutely. I mean, so that's this. Yes. So I mean, what you're saying, I mean, is the other thing is. everyone is trying to blame someone else so that they themselves are not blamed. And you made the point that Pete Hegseth was reamed out. by Trump after the parade, which happened only a week before the bombing.

I mean, it's so extraordinary. because the parade was such a big story when it was happening. And of course, the with the No Kings protest, 6 million people, across, across the country. And Pete Hegseth got reamed out for the parade, which felt too friendly. Soldiers were waving at people. They were running out of formation. It all felt like a benign army. And as you said, the army is modern now. It's very conscious of its air and PR departments.

And that was not what Trump wanted. Trump wanted something menacing, reminiscent of the 60s. Yeah. No, I mean, I think I think he he wanted a, you know, a dictators kind of kind of parade. But the reaming out thing is, is important because everybody gets reamed out. I mean, everybody gets reamed out, literally everybody. And it's frightening. I mean, it's a horrible, horrible experience.

I mean, I have I have known people, but, you know, a number of people within, within the immediate Trump circle. who have been reamed out and then they've spoken to me shortly thereafter. And it's, Pathetic. You mean it's pathetic how upset they are by having been reamed up? I don't know, I mean, it's pathetic what they have to endure here. These are these are these are these are grown ups. These are people who have of some accomplishment.

They are at some level, they may not be the A-plus. professionals, but, you know, they're still in there. And, they've had they've had long careers, perhaps not that distinguished, but at least, and, and here they are, called on the carpet, treated like, like like children treated like children treated like dogs. Really? Does Donald Trump recover very quickly when he's had an outburst like that? Because I've I've certainly come across people.

I'm thinking of certain members of the British royal family, actually, who let loose on people who have appalling tempers. Because in that, in that position, they're actually born to it. So you can't get them out of their jobs. And then what you hear. is that they download on people and then recover very quickly within 30s. Yeah, I'm Donald Trump is both he's he's he can be distracted. He can sue stew. And he can hold a grudge. We know he can hold a grudge. On the other hand, you know, I mean, I've mentioned before that around Trump they refer to the weather.

How's the weather? And it's turbulent. And it will be turbulent storms or clear skies, you know, and it's like, well, what happened there? You know, and you don't, you don't know, sometimes it's just the sugar high get enough sugar into him and, and he feels better. Well, we've all worked for people, I think, I suspect. Who. It's better to talk to them before lunch, or it's better to talk to them in the morning.

Not the not the evening. Well, that I that's. That's that's slightly different. That's alcohol. Yeah. This is, this is sugar. He doesn't drink but he, But he eats McDonald's. He does. But you know, they have this thing, this basket, you know, you know, he says, you know, bring me the poison. And then this basket comes in with all kinds. of, of of these kind of, you know, 1950s, 1960s candies, Milky Ways, Hershey bar, you know, all all of this. Oh, and he eats all that, does he? It's amazing. It's not diabetic.

So. So then he takes a bunch of this and then take the poison away. And then he spends, you know, really, you know, crunches down on, All right. It just reminds me of a post I used to have. that would text me very drunk late at night. And initially when I started working for them. You will notice I don't say whether it's a man or a woman. I would reply in earnest. And then I realized the next day they had no memory of sending me. these kind of somewhat violent texts, actually.

So we know that Pete Hegseth is, obsessed about leakers, and he felt that, you know, he had a whole group of people. around him at the Defense Department who leaked against him. Is he conscious of, trying to find. who leaked the most recent intelligence, saying that the bombing wasn't. nearly as effective as they'd hoped. What do you mean? Is he. I mean, he he knows this leak investigation is going on. Right, but is he very fired up about it? Because we heard that all had he was at the Defense Department.

He's fired up about it because Trump is fired up about it, and he's fired up about it because he doesn't want to be blamed for it. I mean, I don't think there's. anybody in this who's who's really has a moral position. You know, we have to find the leakers. This is this is, you know, they've undermined, I mean, whatever you you might, you might typically blame leakers for, I mean, leaking is a destructive act, but that's not what's really going on here. The the what's really going on here is Donald Trump is mad.

The boss is mad. We have to find someone to blame. So it really cascades down. and in that's what the leak was. That's what the search for leakers is about. Now, one of the great. leak searchers in in this, in this administration, is Susie Wiles. How does she. And that's always a question. You know, Susie Wiles is the chief of staff.

And how does she maintain her position? One of the ways that she has done this, and she did this. throughout the campaign is is commence search for leakers. So the fault is always the, in the hands of the leaker. We just have to identify the leaker. We will then find who to blame, and then we will solve the problem. And now let me just also point out they never, ever find the leak. What this is going to say. What is the process of finding the leaker?

And also what I'm very mindful of is what you said. is that we have to pay attention to actually that the story is here, that the bombing was not as successful as they'd expected or told us. It's not actually about searching for the leaker. That's just pushing the narrative on. It's taking the narrative away from the fact they told us. it was a 100% successful mission, when in fact it wasn't. Now, what's going to happen and this is important.

is he's going to double down on this. It's not going to be 100% successful and made 200% successful, 300% success. Right. So we will be in this strange, you know, and this this, you know, often happens in any war situation. You know, nobody knows what's happening. A nobody knows what what is the body count? And this is going to be there's we're we're now going. to enter the world of, of conflicting,

you know, radically conflicting, 180 degrees, conflicting narratives. We've obliterated the Iranian nuclear threat. No, actually, we've just just we just stole that for a couple of weeks. I mean, this is can you can you get more diametric in, in, in the analysis and Trump. will, will double down. He will insist he is absolutely right.

His reality is, is is total. and and anybody who suggests otherwise is a traitor. Before we wrap up, I wanted to address a couple of comments from people. We've had thousands of comments, yet thousands of comments after the podcast. One of them is your pronunciation of the word nuclear all my life. I'm from new Jersey. What does that mean? You. Just because people don't like the fact that you give it, I think three syllables.

It's, it's it's a, it's the way we say it in new Jersey. Oh, okay. It's new it's new Jersey dialog. One of the other points that people raise is that we, we treat this as if it's a soap opera. And of course, it's very serious. We know it's very serious, but are we treating it as a soap opera? I mean, I like to think of it as a character study that actually. what I like talking to you about is. And what I find illuminating about how you think.

about Trump having spent a lot of time with him and the people around him, is that he's just a man at the center of all this. He's just a man. Government is traditionally and the way we understand it, and the way it probably should be, is a story of institutions and process. One of the things that Trump has done, one of the breaks, the historical breaks, is that he's made it all about single individuals, person.

And so therefore, personality becomes as powerful as ideology. And, and I think that's I mean, certainly in all of my coverage of, of, of, of the Trump political career, this is what I've been trying. to illuminate, that it is the, you know, it is all about the. the mercurial whims, the weather of of vested in one man.

Yeah. I remember Andrew Card, the chief of staff to George W Bush, saying. his job was to make sure the president was never tired, never hungry, never lonely and never angry, and his entire job. And you don't think of George W Bush as sort of like that. But but Andrew Card said. literally that was his job to make sure the president was in ever in that moment. Right. And that's that's an older form. of government of of American government.

And the the good form to try to take the emphasis off. of one, one person's whims, one person's impulses. Trump has unleashed that. I mean, it is all about. And he would he would cop to that. It's all about what I. Want about that. Right? He's absolutely thrilled about that. I mean, he talks about I he's the most important person in the world. He's running the world. He took it from. I think of Trump one as being essentially about America. And Trump too, is about it's he's gone global.

It's the second season. And it's you know, it's it's who do you take advice from. Well, knowing me is what is what he says again and again and again, proudly. Right that he's his instincts, his judgment. So just just it is, is truly. at a level that I don't think we've even begun to comprehend. A government of one. A government of one. And it's a real estate guy from Queens. No, it's a reality television star.

A reality television. Yeah. It's never a very good real estate guy. Right. That's that's absolutely right. Michael Wolff, thank you once more for illuminating. whatever it is we are living through right now. See you soon. Yeah, I love talking to Michael because I think. he has a different perspective on how to cover politics. And it is now all about the personality of one man who, as he points. out, was a very successful reality television producer.

I sometimes think we're all still auditioning for a role in the show. belonging to Donald Trump, and it reminds me. a little bit of growing up in England, where our history lessons were all about. the monarchs and the kings and the queens that had ruled England. And sometimes they were benevolent monarchs, and sometimes they were positively draconian. And it feels like somehow, despite the fact that this is an enormous. democracy where all in thrall to the ego of one man.

And that's why I like Michael's analysis so much. And I know you do, too, because you tell us in the comments, which I find incredibly energizing, interesting. We try and read all of them, even when they're a thousand, so please keep them coming. We've addressed your concern about Michael's pronunciation. of the word nuclear, which he claims is a new Jersey issue. Who knows? What do I know? I've barely been to new Jersey. Anyway, thank you for joining us.

If you have been, please feel free to subscribe to this podcast. Share it with your friends. Because we really are trying to have a different perspective, and cover. politics in a slightly different way than the way other people cover it. Feel free to subscribe to The Daily Beast. We are independent media, so we love your support. and we will also keep you up to date, minute by minute with what's rolling out. Don't forget to beast! This podcast was produced by Devin Roger Reno.

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