How Trump Is Making Our Birthday a ‘Big Bummer’ | The Daily Beast Podcast

It's a rare moment where you could have. actually had a beautiful, like, American patriotic celebration. I'll be cringe and say that I'm sad that we don't get to have that, but instead. we have this ridiculous, incompetent boob. The Ferris wheel isn't working. The reflecting pool is green. The the the ice cream is melting. Nobody's showing up. States feel like they should cancel, and they're right to do so. Nobody wants to be associated with this guy, and it's just a big bummer. This is a dark moment, and it is a shame that we have fallen.

so low that this is what it would look like to forever. For how we marked an important milestone in the history of the country. That's where I'm at and I hope they fix the pool. I'm Joanna Coles, this is the. Daily Beast podcast, and today we're going to be talking to Pod. Save America's Jon Lovett from Love It or Leave It. And there's a lot he wants to leave behind. We get into Trump's health. We get into the disaster that is the 250th anniversary.

We get into his reflections on what it was like being at the Obama library. But really we get into what are the Republicans doing. and what is Donald Trump doing riling up his colleagues in Congress? Why is he doing that? What possibly is his strategy and how should the Democrats take it on? What is the future of the Democratic Party while the Republicans are doing.

what they're doing right now? How bad is it going to be for Trump at the midterms? What is he going to do to try and thwart a Democratic victory? And, well, we get into Jon's plans for how he'll be celebrating. 250 years of America. So before we go any further, I just want to remind you, please subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. That's how we can bring you these independent conversations. Yes, we're still independent media and there aren't that many of us around.

at this stage. We appreciate your support. Okay, here's Jon Lovett. John. Love it. You are fresh back from the opening of the Obama library, and I want to know exactly what the gossip was there. I also want to know what you think. about how badly Trump might lose at the midterms. I want to know what you think about the state fair. I want to know what you think about the reflecting pool. But because you have been on this scene as long as you have,

and you've been such a strong observer of it, I want to know what you think about Donald Trump. as he enters his ninth decade in terms of his health. This is a man who's been in plain sight. We've seen him talking and walking for the last 40 years in the media. When you look at him now, do you see a man. who is still the same as he was when we first watched him on television? Or do you think he's changed? So if you go back and watch Trump.

in the debates in 2016 or go back. further than that, there's clearly been a change in how he communicates. It's much less controlled. You know, he always meandered. It was always quite narcissistic. But he used to he's not getting he can't get purchase. You know, when he's speaking he's always like we're tumbling down the side of a hill. And it used to be it used to be that at some point. the talons would grab and then he'd make the point he was trying to make.

He was just a little bit faster, a little bit quicker. And so I do think part of that is just him getting older and slowing down. Part of it. also is he no longer feel obliged, feels obliged to pretend to talk like. a normal politician, or to be as serious as he thinks he should be. I think he was putting on a little bit of a show of what he thought. he was supposed to sound like, and now he feels less restrained. And then also, he doesn't feel as if.

he needs to stop himself from going on his tangents anymore. He no longer has, I think, anyone around him giving him a. the kind of feedback that would say, hey, you really do need to get back to the message. He was always like that. It's worse than it was, right? This is obviously not a new phenomenon with Donald Trump, but he's at an event. that's supposed to be about affordability, and he's ranting about the election. being stolen and and his enemies and how beautiful the ballroom is going to be.

You know, you could find versions of that all along the way, but. he's just a little bit it's more bombastic. It's less cogent. There are fewer vocabulary words. Now, what's the difference between a person. that is losing a step as they're getting older, and a person. who is, with age, no longer feeling bound. by the kind of rules that people used to be bound by? I don't know, maybe both is what getting older really is, but that's how I see it.

And do you see there being a sort of. a health, a mental health condition, or do you think it might just be him getting older? And his point has always been, I'm not a regular politician. I'm not going to talk to you. like a regular politician because people don't like politicians. I don't think it really matters. He is mentally unfit to be president. He is psychologically unfit to be president. He should not be in this job. He is this depraved and reprehensible, narcissistic and broken figure.

He has little to no character. He is unfit. Is he becoming more unfit as he ages? Probably, probably. But we're already on the wrong side of the line, so. And and there's a problem, right? There are a lot of people. that that are frustrated because they say, well, we talked about Joe Biden's age. all the time. Why aren't we having the same conversation about Donald Trump?

Why does Donald Trump get sorted as crazy, not old, right? And I think some of that is his talents as a political figure. He seems energetic. He's everywhere. He's always speaking. And you know, he he's going to the to the game and then speaking on the tarmac at midnight. What is he saying on the tarmac at midnight? Gobbledygook. But he's always out there. So I do think that's a defense against the accusation. But regardless like is. does he have a mental disorder or is he just a world shittiest person?

I don't know, or maybe that's a distinction without a difference. I don't I don't know what you would find about Donald Trump in the DSM six, but I don't I just don't care. It might be under its own section. That's kind of yeah, sorry. On the DMZ, Ariana DSM six. What do you some are we on? I don't know what it's where where are we on that I don't know. but he would there'd be no diagnosis ever before. Like it's the only diagnosis like this. But he'd be very I think he'd be very proud of that.

I think that's right. So you're an expert in communication. Can you sort of analyze for us his his communication style? Because I am, as you say, he's always talking. He's always talking. And the contrast, obviously, with Joe Biden, who was sort of whispering. But is Trump's always talking actually an advantage for him?

So. You know, this has been the question for such a long time with Trump. Like is clear. Trump thinks it is right, and the people around Trump thinks it is an advantage to him. It certainly was in primaries where he crowded out. the space for anyone to compete with him. Now, as president right now, he has an approval rating. You know, maybe on a good day there's a four in front of it.

It's in the three, sometimes low threes. A new survey just came out from CNN I believe that found his strong support. is down to 16% from the high 20s or so. Even the the diehard supporters of Trump. are no longer as much behind him. The country really has, I think, turned on him because of. inflation, because of the war, and because he hasn't delivered on what he said he was going to do, and because he's been absurdly focused on ridiculous side.

quest instead of the main job of being president. So, yeah, he's out there every day. Would it be worse if he weren't? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's a little bit overdetermined now. I think what Trump sees is everyone says I'm, you know, doing damage to myself and I, I'm not on messaging. And here I am president in my second term. And so, you know, presidents.

they don't change. You know, they kind of become more themselves in a way. And a lot of the, the, the strengths that bring them. to office often become flaws when they stick to them. Right? You know, I think that is true of Biden in the way. that he always felt he was underestimated and was underestimated. And so that that allowed them to kind of. build this sort of fortress around themselves in which they believed.

the fact that they were being so questioned was yet another sign that. that he was being doubted, even though he'll always pull through in the end, that he was a closer. You know, Barack Obama was someone who had a kind of steady calm. And then, you know, they lose the Congress. And you know what? There's a kind of like a steadiness, but maybe a lack of. a judgment adjustment that people criticize in the second term. And I think that's debatable. But I think that would be the case with Trump.

Right. Like he. was cast out virtually. Right? I mean, Mitch McConnell, as one of the great horse, the Four Horsemen of the apocalypse, failed to fail to fail. to get rid of him. But nonetheless, like, there's never been a president. at a lower ebb, he had launched an insurrection. He was considered unelectable. You go back to look at these statements from Republicans now, supplicating. before him that said he was finished and done and despicable,

and yet he clawed his way back. So that's what he thinks. He was rewarded for his his like his his his flood. the zone communication and talking about election theft and everything else. So is he rewarded for it? I think he's president and he shouldn't be. But right now. No, I mean Donald Trump. There's no one doing more damage to the ability of Republicans. to retain some seats in Congress than Donald Trump.

He is he is couldn't be doing more to hurt their chances. of keeping the House and keeping the Senate. And that's in part because of how much he's out there. You're. eating French fries at the beach and you want to take a quick dip in the ocean. So you put a seagull on watch. That's not security, that's catering for the seagull. There's a reason you wouldn't trust a seagull with your fries. Just like there's a reason. why Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm.

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The shouting and, and the sort of bullying behavior. that was immediately leaked after the Republican Senate lunch. on Wednesday, where he and Bill Cassidy, the senator from Louisiana, who as we know, Donald Trump primaried and won in that lunch. Trump was calling him a loser. He was saying he was a lunatic. Cassidy emerged from the lunch looking actually shaken up, even for a man who already knows he's not going back to the Senate. So.

So can you talk a little bit about what you think he's getting out of that? Yeah. I mean, how strategic is it for Donald Trump to get into a screaming. match with a Republican senator in front of the caucus. when, you know, to and to basically talk. about them for some length of time without letting anybody else speak. I don't know the. He does not brook dissent. Right. And for Republicans broke and supported the Iran War Powers resolution.

The Republicans in the Senate. will not give him the votes as of right now to pass his Save act, which is a law to make it harder to vote and federalize elections. because they are worried about being defeated in the midterms. And Donald Trump doesn't like feeling out of control. He you know, for all his bluster, he sees the polls. He knows what's coming. I think he would I think he would like to pass a law to make,

to tilt the scales towards Republicans in the election in terms of the vote, actually kind of hamstring our democracy, because I think that gives them a chance. But also, I think he'd like to blame them if they fail to pass this. because he's saying if we don't pass it, we're going to lose because they're going to steal it. I also think he doesn't like being rebuked on Iran. I don't think his ego can handle even the slightest questioning by these people. It's embarrassing to him. And he also believes that part of his power comes from all of these people.

Knowing that he never lets anything go, he swings at every pitch. And so yeah, when he goes in there, he's going to go toe to toe with Cassidy, who he just defeated in a primary and feels like he bullied. basically out of Congress. And he is going to kind of push these people. until they come back and have another vote. on the Iran war powers so that he can go around and say, Sisi, I like I have these people, they'll do whatever I say. So you were obviously part of the Obama.

administration and we had the JCPoA. We now appear to have a deal that is far less good. That leaves the Iranians, as we've seen today, the shot at tanker. today leaves the Iranians in control of the Strait of Hormuz. Does this sort of make you despair when you look at the recent action in Iran? I mean, do you just think, oh, the world's moving in a sort of. in a worse direction, or are you sort of fairly sanguine about it?

I think if we stopped. and really considered the amount of damage, generational. damage that's being done by this presidency, the. the amount of preventable chaos, destruction, lost opportunity, it's almost too much to take in all at once. And it's obviously the things he's breaking, right?

The what he's what he what what they did to us. ID. the the kind of destruction. of the kind of independence of the Justice Department, the firing of people with expertise all across the government. like we saw with screw worm, the research that's not being done. or that was aborted in the middle that held such promise.

that hopefully could be resumed, but or may be lost, like the. the staggering cost of what he's done, the, the, the, the people. that were contributing to our society. whose only fault was having been. undocumented or come as a child, but was. told by us to come right. We built an economy around undocumented people. We told them that they could work. They came and they built lives here because we had an immigration system.

built on the backs of people who were undocumented and, and, and the amount of pain and misery, all of it, you added up. It's it's staggering. And, you know, I think there's a lot of people that, that like, oh, you know, you know, we'll undo this, we'll undo that. Some of it hopefully. But no, we're we're paying a great price for this. It's terrible. What he's doing is terrible. The. the fact that we pulled.

out of the JCPoA, the Obama era nuclear deal, we launched this war that killed thousands of people. We enabled Benjamin Netanyahu to. Basically yoke America. into this conflict that has not only harmed our interest, but, by the way, made Israel more of a pariah in the world, destroyed what was a bipartisan consensus about supporting Israel,

like the cost of what Trump has done and what this administration has done? We will pay for a very long time. Were you ever part of conversations, even sort of channel gently, where Netanyahu was trying. to pressurize the Obama administration into going into Iran? I mean, Hillary Clinton's talked about it a lot recently, and Ben Rhodes has been on our podcast talking about it.

So I was a I was in the sort of domestic speechwriting. And so I really didn't touch foreign policy. Ben Rhodes and another, a writer named Terese. Duplass, did a lot of the foreign policy speechwriting. But I think, as we all know this, Benjamin Netanyahu has been wanting. the United States. to be drawn into a conflict with Iran for as long as has he been in public life. It's been his his great mission. And he finally succeeded when he convinced Donald Trump to do it. Now, a lot of like,

you know, what we just talked about the the ways in which the US. Kind of was way to allied with Benjamin. Netanyahu, refused to put enough pressure on Israel that predates Donald Trump. Joe Biden deserves a lot of criticism for that as well. But the fact that there was a presentation by Benjamin Netanyahu. in the Situation Room. to the president of the United States, I see a lot of people saying. once we learned that like, oh, wow, like, I can't believe what Benjamin Netanyahu.

was able to get away with. But to get into that room as a decision made by Marco Rubio, who is national Security advisor, among many other responsibilities, it's. a decision by the administration to put Donald Trump in that position. So this is a this isn't just a Donald Trump thing. It's not even just a Benjamin Netanyahu thing. This was an administration decision by the leaders of this administration. to bound us up with Israel's policy of wanting. to do regime change in Iran, and it backfired spectacularly.

And the end result is America looking weak and Iran. being able to assert control over this waterway, while JD Vance. negotiates a deal that is. far less stringent than the one Donald Trump. claimed was the worst deal in human history. One thing. I've been thinking about a lot lately is how easy it is to go through life.

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You know? No, I don't think he's being set up by anyone to fail. I think he's failing because he, you know, failing on his own. There's no there's no grant. They he is he is not being he's. not some sort of stooge here. He is trying to put himself out there. as a great communicator for the administration. And, you know, he's just like, I don't know the person out there.

who is able to, in a sophisticated way, defend Donald Trump. Like maybe such a person doesn't exist, but it's certainly not JD Vance. Right? Today was celebrating Richard Nixon and saying. that if Richard Nixon were around today, can we just have that moment? The only American president to have resigned and JD Vance is like, you know what? If that was now be a 12 hour news cycle? You know what?

And this is where it's like he's maybe he's not wrong. You know what? Maybe he's right. Maybe that's how bad things have gotten. Maybe. Maybe he's right that if Richard Nixon were around today, he wouldn't face pressure from inside his own party to resign. There wouldn't be the kind of collective fury at the criminality. of the administration. And what a great shame that is. What a great historic shame that JD Vance is a part of. Look at him sitting there all smug, kind of like like Attenborough.

on the Serengeti with a pair of binoculars, remarking. on how far America has fallen, like it's despicable. And he's doing this, by the way. It's not, you know, look, I don't I don't I don't think it's such a. like masterstroke. I think it's a great strategy. But I think he is signaling that he is willing. to behave in an exciting way or a Trumpian way, right? That he'd be willing to do the kind of thing that Nixon would do that. he didn't get away with. Right? That he'd be willing to, you know, be as sleazy as Nixon one.

Nixon was, I guess, what I guess that's what he's saying. But I find the whole thing it is, you know, you'll go back and watch a movie from the 90s where a scandal is exposed. and it brings down the president, and Harrison Ford goes before Congress, and he says, this is what happened. when the president illegally sent troops to South America. And that's when the movie ends. That's when the movie ends, because it's assumed in the movie. that everyone's going to be so pissed that there'll be consequences. And now it's like, well, I don't know what would happen.

Maybe the president goes out there and calls him a liar and, and, and buttonholes his, his Republican allies. And those Republicans, it turns out, have absolutely no. loyalty or deeper set of principles that they care about. None they'd willing to risk anything for. And so the president would get away with whatever. Right. So you think you might be signaling that's that's interesting. I thought I mean, I was very confused by that because also. he was talking about how, you know, lots.

of Nixon's policies, like opening up China. and trying to get a nuclear treaty with with the Russians. I mean, that was odd, too, because that's the opposite of what Donald Trump is doing. Donald Trump has slapped tariffs on China and he's snuggling up to Vladimir Putin. I mean, I thought that was bizarre. Well, yeah. Look, I'm not really super interested in JD Vance's, like, efforts to use a kind of narrow.

reading of history to justify his abandonment. of any principles and completely reverse who he claimed to be. But, you know, Nixon creates the EPA. He was strategic. You know, I think people who defend Trump, they go to like, the madman theory. that Nixon would pretend to be a little bit nuts. And and Kissinger would say that because, you know, democracies have a disadvantage. because autocracies know we care about our people and our responsible to them. That gives them the ability to negotiate harder,

because we know they don't have to care as much about the damage they can do. I'm just this is what. And so you get you have to pretend to be a little bit crazy. You got to push them to the edge. But. there was a point to Nixon going to China. There was a goal. It was about creating a friction between the two communist countries. Trump has empowered Vladimir Putin. He has empowered China. He has bullied our allies. He is trying to break NATO.

He is threatening Greenland. He is. terrifying our friends. He is doing great damage to our interests. So yeah, man boy Nixon, he certainly did. get he certainly maybe would have gotten away with more today. He also would be a rhino squish. Neocon. So, you know, good luck JD, I guess I don't know.

Good luck. JD so how do you how bad actually do you think? I mean, I'm so used to hearing you being cheerful and the funny man, and it's interesting hearing you so sort of worked up about it because, how bad do you think. Trump could be as the midterms approach? I don't think. there's anything you really can take off the table. So he.

the the Justice Department has become a tool. of the administration in an unprecedented way. So it has the ability to launch investigations into anyone. There was reports about the Justice Department going after Gavin Newsom. Now we don't know the details of that yet. There's I think John Bolton I think is pleading guilty today. And you end up you end up talking about. the specifics of the allegations, which you which we should do.

Right. Of course, that's what you should do. But can you trust that, that an administration isn't going after someone? There's whatever they end up turning up on people. It has always been the case, and it has been a great warning. from previous attorneys general. that if the Justice Department goes after people and looks for crimes. as opposed to looking for crimes and then finding those responsible, that is destructive, even if they find stuff, you go digging through the campaign finance reports of every.

every. Democrat with a chance of defeating a vulnerable Republican. Are there going to be problems in the filings? Are there mistakes? This is a complicated. Legal regime, like people like this is this is the danger. of what a Justice Department can do if it's targeting individuals. So they will be opening investigations into Democrats that they. that they're worried about. And it will be incumbent upon us to to call that out for what it is.

We don't know what they're going to do around polling places. We don't know what they're going to do about seeding people once they've won. I do think the answer is winning so big, such by by. such a great margin that it is too big to, to to rig. And I'm glad California has passed some reforms. to count the ballots faster to even though a lot of those allegations are. you know, it's. all of those allegations of California being.

rigging the votes because we count slowly are completely made up in specious. But I do think counting ballots Vasteras is good government anyway. But of course I'm worried about it. Trump is never more dangerous than when he's cornered. He's a he's a. You know, he's a he's a feral preacher. He's a feral creature. He is indeed. So. you were at the Obama library opening last week. Very jealous. I want to know exactly what it was like. And also, is the building more attractive when you're actually there?

Because the photos of it look very brutalist and kind of severe. But I'm told by people inside, you know, being inside is actually much. more appealing. So. The, the. stone on the outside of the tower is much more interesting in person. It is much more like surprising and beautiful in person. And it is definitely not translating to photos. I think that that's true.

It's also just a bigger space, right? People are pointing to that one building. That building isn't the the the Obama whisk isn't the only structure. that's like one structure. And it's a beautiful campus. And a lot of what a lot of it is about what it feels like to be outside. and to walk around. So it is a beautiful place on the whole, like, I, I'm not. you know, I was a Hillary person before I was an Obama person. And I. say this facetiously, but but I do think it's true. Like like I'm not a person. Like, that's not what motivates me.

I'm an anger person. I'm motivated by rage. And I sometimes find in politics, I think being inspiring is of great value. Right? Because what what does it mean to be inspiring? You're convincing people to do more. than they might otherwise do, or to to be more generous, to be more open, to be more curious, to be more involved, to use their power. And that's that's a beautiful and good thing. But when a person says, I want to be inspired, it's like, what do you mean? That's that would suggest you know, what you should be doing.

and you're waiting for someone to what, like, like give you goosebumps. So you go out and do it. So for me, I'm not I'm not a nostalgic person by nature. So so. but so for me, walking around what I was, what I was struck by is. there is a tension, which is. Barack Obama. Did you see that? Barack Obama did you see this approval rating among Democrats right now? And do you know what it is? It's probably incredibly high, isn't that it's 96%.

It's 1,996%. Wow. Is the he if you ask him, there was another another poll came out. and by a plurality when people say who's the best president in living memory. or something, to that extent it's Barack Obama. So he remains this unifying and popular figure. And even when he was losing ground on the economy, even when he was facing. setbacks and and getting trounced in the midterms, his personal popularity,

how people viewed him as a person really did stay high. So it was a great affection for Barack Obama and the way he practiced politics. And I also feel sometimes that I am I had this great privilege of being part. of this generation that got to be part of the that era of politics. And it was a great proving ground for people who saw politics. as a place where you could genuinely you could, first of all, persuade people. You could change people's minds, you could surprise people and you could do big things.

And that being hopeful wasn't cringe. It just didn't have to be cringe. And. I felt that being. at the library, and I think a great question. we have to answer is, okay, this was a model that was persuasive to the country twice. It was a model that led to a lot of progress, including the Affordable Care Act, which as try as hard as they might,

still stands. It also ultimately did not persuade enough. people once Obama left the stage to continue right. And it led to a backlash. And I'm I want to. what I was thinking about as I was walking around in that space is. what are the ways in which this story of America, of. of organizing and. Steady progress and the power of democracy? What is it that led so many people to become cynical about it,

and to be willing to give someone like Donald Trump a chance? And that's why I get so animated when JD Vance says something like, oh, Nixon would have gotten away with it today, because I do think there's a deeper. there's a deeper loss that we're, we're, we're, we're struggling with of of a collective sense of values. and decency and a belief that I'm going to impose to. play by the rules because I know you are and I trust you to do it.

And how do we we were a high trust society that became a low trust society. How do we become a high trust society again? How do we how do we trust that if we wait in line. for our boarding group at the airport, everybody else will too? Right. So we don't have to crowd, so we have to crowd the fucking gate, right? Like you have to zip in. through the priority boarding even though you don't have a priority. pass, which I will confess, I do do, I can, and I know that about you, and I know that about you still. So that's what I was, what my feeling was because it I want.

it to me like. that, getting people back to a place where they believe in that vision. for America updated of course, is I think our our larger project. So what were the ex-presidents saying about Donald Trump? I mean, I can't imagine the conversations that were going on, so I didn't. First of all, I didn't. They were, by the way, like behind glass on the stage. Did you see. Did you see the the the the moment where.

after it was over, Joe Biden went to the podium. Did I did not I did not see the I did not see the moment. Please explain. So the event ends. It was awesome. It was long. It was almost three hours. Yeah. Bono, Bruce Springsteen, Stevie Wonder, a bunch of great performances. I'm forgetting legends even as I'm talking about it. Christina Aguilera. And then at the very.

end and by the way, Michelle gave an incredible speech. An incredible speech. Broccoli. I saw Michelle, I saw Michelle's speech, and I loved the fact that she referenced. the fact that her husband got the Nobel Peace Prize. Yeah. And then it all ended. And then everybody looked up. and Joe Biden walked up to the podium and it was like, what's he doing up there? And I think he was just talking to people and waving her people. But there was this sort of like, I don't know, this tragic irony of the whole thing. And like, Jill came back and like, walked him off.

And was it as if he thought he was still president? No, no, no, I think it was. I, I don't know what it was. It was just a little bit off. It was a little bit strange. I think he wanted to wave at people. I think he wanted his moment to, to see everybody. And. Dave Weigel is a great reporter. He pointed this out, which is Joe Biden. He didn't get a convention in 2020 because of the pandemic. His inaugural had a pall cast over it by the insurrection.

By the time his next convention rolls around, Kamala is the nominee. and he doesn't get a speaking spot. till late in the night and was seen as somebody that people didn't. want to hear from, even though he was a policy, had a great many achievements. He was a successful Democratic president. He he played his hand on domestic policy as well as any president could. I genuinely believe that I'm very critical of Joe Biden for his decision to run, but part of he he deserves that credit.

And then, you know, you know, he's an older person. He's he's not he's he's not he's he's not ground. And so he's also, you know, at the library opening for the two term successful. Barack Obama administration. He knows he's not seen as a successful president right now. And he may not be at a library like this where he celebrated in the same way. So I just had a like a I had a sad feeling about. Joe Biden in that moment, but on the whole, it was just a. I spent most of my time with all of the people I worked with.

when I was in the white House and seeing people I hadn't seen in a decade, seeing all the fellow white House speechwriters. So all the people who've gone off and made a ton of money in tech then. So so, you know, the writers have done a lot of writing. I didn't see I don't know who made money in tech, and if they made money in tech, good for them. But it was, you know, the I love speechwriting. and I don't do it anymore, obviously, but I believe in it as a craft. And I was very fortunate because the 2007, 2008.

Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama primary was this slog. And it was a great training ground for a bunch of great people in both campaigns. And a lot. of the great speechwriters that came out of that. are still doing a lot of the speechwriting and Democratic politics. But but it's just interesting to be around speechwriting at a time. when you're hearing about AI, when you see a lot of just dreck out there,

and then you see, like Barack Obama give a great speech, you see Michelle Obama. give a great speech, and then you see out there. that, like, John Ossoff is actually doing these great speeches. And it was fun to just be with the kind of writers. and Democratic politics from a time before Trump, when we cared about every word and made sure they were accurate and sent them. to a research department in case they were there was a problem in the remarks. Right? Like just it was it was fun to to sit in that time when. there was when people at the white House took their jobs really seriously, and.

you knew that the person at the very top took it more seriously than anybody. Well, and the idea that we have a president now. who has no idea what he's going to say, he surprises himself when he speaks. He has no, no sense of, I think, what's going to tumble out of his mouth next. And also when it doesn't, as you said earlier, make any sense. And it's incoherent. He puts it down to the we've he's already branded it as the Trump weave. So so John who do you want to write for now. Who do you see as the as the big Democratic hopefuls.

There's I don't I don't. know I like to me the who is the right person. They are going to be the person that emerges. from the big contentious primary that we're about to have. And that primary will be the be. the kiln that like we we get the the person out of because, you know, a lot of I think the tension right now. in the Democratic Party and a lot of the, the, the kind of brittle.

nature of the debate is in part because we just didn't have a big primary in 2024. And primaries are where we we we don't resolve our differences, but we hash them out and we, we, we fight our big battles. And then in the act of coming together so somebody will emerge, right? Joe Biden emerges from that primary in 2020, and then he extends a hand to Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. and the left, and they find a way to work together.

By the way, another another problem. When I cried at Joe Biden, that that that was a remarkable. an excellent sort of model of of. of what it means to be a leader of a big movement. because he brought Bernie Sanders and he brought Elizabeth Warren, and he brought in Lina Khan, he listened to the, the, the part of his, his support. that wanted a more robust, kind of progressive, engaged Democratic administration when it came to the economy.

And he really tried to to to listen and adapt. as someone who was a real moderate his whole career. He really tried to listen to those, to those people. And I think it really mattered. And so I want that to happen here. Right. Like whether it's, you know, you have Pritzker and Ansar, if you have Josh Shapiro, you have a bunch of other people that may run. And there'll be, I think, someone that carries the mantle. of the left, that maybe that's AOC, maybe that's somebody else. And then we'll have the big debate about the direction the party should go.

And then whatever comes of that, it'll be the obligation of those leaders. And by the way, the supporters to come together and like. put pressure on whoever is that person to, to, to. to listen to the parts of the base that maybe didn't get their candidate, but also like, come together and do what it takes to win and like that. Who's the right person to do that? I don't know. So I just came back from Can Lyon, the big advertising festival. in the south of France, and I was sitting with what a life you have,

come on, a life I have hustling for priority boarding. I'm crushed that you said you knew I did that. That's very crushing. I'm sorry I didn't. I did, but I was sitting at a one dinner. next to a very prominent Democratic donor, and he said that he thought the way for the Democrats to win now. And this was a man who was a big supporter of Joe Biden, big supporter of Biden, that a professional politician was not going to work, that. they didn't have anybody that was going to be able to.

to really get their arms around the party and that they should go. For someone who is well known. Famous celebrity could match Trump's celebrity. Although Trump may not be running well, let's assume he's not running. So he was thinking of someone like Peyton Manning, the two names he put forward, Peyton Manning and Doug McMillan, who was CEO of Walmart. Famous, you know, very competent. managerial CEO of Walmart.

And I just I wondered if there are any of those. I mean, he really is a prominent donor in the party. So I'm curious about whether or not there are other conversations going on. that you've heard or what you think about that idea. that professional politicians just don't appeal to to people anymore, and that the sort of chink in the armor that Trump had was, I'm not a politician. I'm going to tell it like it is. I'm not going to behave like a regular president. So, you know,

there's a. a lot of people want to cut the Gordian knot, right? They want to find this one weird trick for winning. And so, oh, people don't like politicians. So maybe we run someone who's not a politician. It's not a bad idea. I think if somebody who's an incredibly successful executive who. has a lot to offer. as a manager and by the way, can can demonstrate. like genuine progressive leadership as a corporate leader, right? If they were pro-union, if they did right.

by their people, like, I'm not against that on its face. Give it a shot. Get in the race. That being said, my question would be about a donor at in the south of France is. how did what was the kind of plane that that person took to get there? And when was the last time that person was in a grocery store? I can assure you it was a private plane. I can assure you it's a private plane. Here's my thing, I don't I, I think everybody should share their views.

But people that are saying, oh, here's how, here's what's going to really work. Here's what we need to do to win, here's. what's going to appeal to people if they haven't been to a grocery store. or walk through a metal detector at a major airport. in, say, a decade, I'm a little bit suspicious. that they're not getting a lot of their ideas from the internet. Do people? Are people frustrated by politicians? Yes. It's a little bit difficult to tease out what's going on. with the Democratic Party right now when we,

you know, Joe Biden won, then Kamala has this 100 day sprint. She doesn't succeed. Barack Obama wins twice. What are people going to want after Donald Trump is off the scene? Maybe it will be someone more traditional. Maybe it will be someone more stable. Maybe it will be someone a little bit. boring and kind who dots their T's and crosses the rise. and maybe sounds a little bit studied, sounds a little bit rehearsed.

Because you know what? That's kind of safe, right? I don't know if that's right, but my view of it is nobody knows. Get in like get in the ring and and be part of the fight. I will say one, one thing I will say about all of this is, personally, I'm not really interested in somebody riding in on a horse in 2027, 2028. If you weren't here in 2025 and 2026. speaking out about what Donald Trump was doing, if you kept your head down, popped up every once in a long while to say something.

If I don't know right now. the kind of fight you're willing to fight against this version. of the Republican Party, I'm not really that interested in you leading this party. into the next election, because we're in a knock down, drag out fight right now. And. so so if somebody wants to. to be the person that represents Democrats in the fight against rising. authoritarianism, they got to be there doing it all along the way, because not just because it's, I think, morally right.

It's because the kind of. person that should be leading the Democratic Party is so upset. and and angry and, and motivated that they couldn't stop themselves from being out there, that they would never want to not say. what they're feeling because they believe so strongly. that we could be doing better than than how we're doing. So anybody who's out there strategizing while keeping their mouth shut, like, you know what a that? Thanks, but no thanks. That's how I feel about it.

That's my personal view. That's my personal view. That doesn't mean that person couldn't. Maybe others feel differently. That's how I feel about it. Yeah. Okay. How do you feel about the progressive wing? As we saw in New York this week, Mamdani is three candidates. that he endorsed, swept the board, moderates out. Is that a sign of something larger in the party, do you think. or do you think it's just about him and about New York? So I think I think like it's I think just to introduce a little nuance, right.

Those those candidates that lost wouldn't call themselves moderates. Dan Goldman was certainly to more towards the center on Israel than Brad Lander. SBF wouldn't call himself a moderate, probably caught off guard. by the fact that suddenly he's being seen as a moderate. Right? So so just. just to push back, though, Dan Goldman, my congressman, I mean, I think he wanted the progressive voters. He wanted he could see the way things were going, but he felt like a moderate. Yeah. Before Medicare for all.

Take your point somewhere. I'm just saying I think it's I take your point. All I'm getting at is I think I think the endorsements really mattered. Right? I think Danny has inspired a lot of people and is popular, especially. among Democrats. And his his voice really matters. What does it mean when three Democratic socialists win in three of the most. liberal districts in the country, or. three left candidates? When does that mean Josh Shapiro.

isn't one of the most popular governors in the country? No. Does that. mean he represents the Democratic Party any less? Or Abigail Spanberger or Slotkin, or, you know that Sherrod Brown doesn't represent the Democratic Party in his race. in Ohio as a kind of more kind of old school Democratic populist on the economy? I don't think so. We're a big, fractious, diverse coalition that's annoying to some people.

The reason it's hard to have a coalition like that, the. the reason right wing movements, movements are often able to succeed. is because there are real, important moral differences. inside of a pro-democratic coalition. I think some of the things that Villa Chevalier have said are terrible. I'm glad she's walked some of them back in the same way. I was glad people gave Graham Platner the space to walk back. some of the things he said, and I think people should be afforded,

afforded the chance to explain themselves. But also people don't have to like everyone that's. in in part of this coalition and they don't have to agree with it. They can be really critical. Josh Shapiro was asked about it, and I thought what he said was right. He said, I have strong differences. It's not my district. You know, like he doesn't have to. He Republicans want to make us own what everyone else says. They want to make everyone responsible for everyone. But you don't have to be. We don't have to accept that. James Carville doesn't have to go out there and say, we need a schism in the party, because three socialists, one,

and because a socialist one in New York City, I don't think that changes. what John Ossoff represents or Kamala Harris represents. So. that's where I see it. And so my, my, my feeling about it. Just two quick points about this one. If establishment leadership is upset that. that that. democratic socialists are winning because they've used some of the things. they said is unacceptable, I would ask why the voters.

found your candidate even more unacceptable, right. I think I think it's worth asking that question from the other side. Can I just point out, though, that is this about the way that the. primaries are structured so that initially they brought the primaries forward. in New York from the fall, where they used to be to the summer. to June in actually with the goal of protecting the establishment. And in fact, it's had the opposite impact, that you've got a small group that get people out to the vote.

I mean, most people don't even know there's a primary going on in new that. that may be the case, but boy, wouldn't it be nice if Democratic. the Democratic Party had an enthusiastic. base of support that was ready to show up all the time, right? Like where? Where? Right. Look, shouldn't there be, you know, it wasn't always the case that that. that that, you know, again, Barack Obama, 96% approval rating. He's not a far left candidate, but he was ideologically unifying and inspiring to people.

So maybe that's the case, but it doesn't change the problem. on the other side of it, right? Like, I'm not a democratic socialist, but I think they've done something really impressive in New York. that really figured out how to build power. But and how have they done it? Well, it's by fighting Democrats as it should be right there. They're a faction inside the broad left coalition. But I do think in an organization that is instinctively built. to fight Democrats as it gains more sway, needs to to grow.

into being part of the fight with Democrats against Republicans. And that's really important to part of that is is about coming together. and unifying, which, by the way, I think people like AOC and Bernie Sanders. have been extraordinarily responsible and good about. But it's also about knowing that, you know, what? Like the the. you're you should speak your mind. And if you're further to left than a moderate in Ohio, that's not your problem. You should speak your mind and say what you believe. That's politics.

But also you should know that your words will be taken out of context by Fox News. That's not fair, but that's life. And so everyone I think, has, I think, an obligation. to be good members of this coalition. That applies to, I think, centrist leaders who told everyone to vote blue. no matter who, but are now complaining that a socialist one that applies to, I think, people on the left that have a bit more fun. attacking Democrats because of the narcissism of small differences, the narcissism of small differences. All right. So we're coming up for July the 4th at the end of the week.

What are you planning to do? Are you going to the state fair? Are you going to go and reflect in the reflecting pool? I love reflecting going on the reflecting pool. I look, I'm going to go see fireworks here in beautiful California, one of the two greatest states in the country. I'll be here in California, a state with. Beautiful beaches. And as of today, our warehouse fire has been extinguished. So we'll celebrate that.

But so the air is the air is free to breathe. It's certainly getting better. But yeah, the it's such a bummer, you know. So so there was the Congress created something called. America 250 and that was a. bipartisan group to help figure out what the events. were going to be around the fourth. Trump then creates his own competing group called freedom 250.

and politicizing America's Independence Day, our 250th birthday. And again, like, we'll look at all the things Trump is doing, right. The the fact that he gives a Partizan speech that his his secretary. of transportation calls the musicians who canceled Libertadores all that, that he's politicized the whole thing and made him about made it about him. And that stinks. But I do think it's worth taking a moment to say, wow, like,

okay, these are all the ways in which Trump has has made this about him. and made it made it worse. What about the alarm that's not going off about how great it could have been. to have literally any other president at this moment to have a big, unifying, patriotic event that would have been across the whole country. You know, that organization America 250 is still doing events. They're just smaller. They're not, you know, you just don't hear that much about them. But what a great shame it is that we have this.

kind of depraved person in charge. I don't think like. if George W Bush were president right now, I think some aspects of what. they would have done for America's two 50th would have probably annoyed me. They were like a little bit of politics would have gotten in there. By the way, I think if Barack Obama were president, did America 250, there would be parts of it that annoyed Republicans, but you would know that they would take the responsibility. of representing the whole country seriously, to understand that this wasn't. just about them or their political prerogatives, that it's a rare moment where you could have.

actually had a beautiful, like, American patriotic celebration. I'll be cringe and say that I'm sad that we don't get to have that, but instead. we have this ridiculous, incompetent boob. The Ferris wheel isn't working. The reflecting pool is green. The the the ice cream is melting. Nobody's showing up. States feel like they should cancel, and they're right to do so. Nobody wants to be associated with this guy and it's just a big bummer. The in I was thinking about the Ferris wheel.

in the the Chicago State Fair. 100 some odd years ago more. They built the first Ferris wheel. Ferris built the wheel, and it was a marvel, right? It was this beautiful, amazing thing. People could not believe that this giant structure move. We set out to have a World's Fair, and we were going to build something. that rivaled the Eiffel Tower. And then it happened. They built a moving a moving Eiffel Tower in the middle of Chicago, and it was a marvel the whole world got to see.

And it said, look at what America is going to be. Oh, you Europeans think of us as some some backwater full of hicks. We're about to eat your lunch. We're going to build buildings that touch the sky. We're going to be the greatest country in the world. And then we did it. And now we have this fucking maniac moron in charge, erecting a two bit Ferris wheel on an empty National Mall. And it is. It is making me really mad and sad, honestly. And I know it's just a party and we got bigger fish to fry, but. I do think it's okay to take a moment and say, you know what?

Like, this is a dark moment and it is a shame that we have. fallen so low that this is what it would look like to forever. For how we marked an important milestone in the history of the country. That's where I'm at and I hope they fix the pool. Wow, John, love it. That was fantastic John. Love it. Well, have fun at your fireworks. I will, I will, and I will tell you that the Eiffel Tower in Paris,

where I am right now, is closed because the heat is so strong. They will not let people go up there. And by the way, Europeans stick their nose up at us. How about you get some air conditioning? Yeah. Please get conditioning. All right, let's get air conditioning. It's a disaster. It's a disaster. So do you have a favorite firework, John? Do you have a favorite firework? I don't know if they were firework, but I'm. I'm a sucker for the finale. I love the moment where it's like, let's let it rip. Let's let it rip.

I love it, I love it. Well, have fun at your July the 4th, and I hope that you will come back on the podcast soon. Well, thanks for having me. We'd love to. Good to see you. I love hearing from John love. His passion just comes through and every generation has its own version of America. America is always changing. I guess the question is, can we carry on writing it together?

Well, enjoy your fireworks wherever you're having them. We'll be back with David Rothkopf tomorrow. He's bringing fireworks all on his own. I think his favorite firework is probably the Roman candle. That's what I'm guessing anyway. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passa, Heather Passaro, and Neil Raisin House. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.