How the Epstein Files Backfired on Trump: Wolff | Inside Trump's Head

The Epstein file turns out to be a funnel of everything undifferentiated. So the file is essentially a garbage can of everything. Mentioning Jeffrey Epstein. How do we obscure what we don't want to see? Well, then we give you too much. So rather than solve the mystery, it increases the mystery. Michael Wolff.

Joanna Coles two days before Christmas. Two days before Christmas. Have you got all your shopping done. That you can always do more. Oh, it's a good American attitude towards shopping. I have done almost none. I went, I'm only buying a very few gifts this year. And I went to one store and I bought them all there. I suddenly thought, why not? So Gigi Hadid, if you're listening, I bought everything from guest. and residents this year. Everybody's getting cashmere. Down. Is that. Is that her store? It's her.

I like that store, too. That's how you do it? Yeah. It's good. Cardigan store. Cardigan store. It's right around the corner from me, so I strolled out on Saturday and I ended up buying everything there. And also they come in. very nice yellow boxes, which is cheerful for this time of year. So all your boys are getting cardigans? Well, they do sweaters too. Actually, the youngest son is not getting cashmere. He is getting. He's getting an enormous pot because he he likes to cook.

And if he doesn't want it, I've told him. I'll take it back from him, but it's very nice. I know he doesn't listen to the podcast, so I can say he's. getting a very nice little crazy pot. Very nice. Because he. Can. So you did go to another store? I did it online. I did it online. I went to Uncle Jeff. Actually, Uncle Jeffrey started when cowboy hats. I saw there was a very strange Jeff. Who is Uncle Jeff? I never Jeff. Uncle Jeff Bezos Amazon. I went to Amazon, I went to Amazon.

And there's a very strange photo of. I thought for a moment you were it was Uncle Jeff Epstein. I was. Oh, no, that's. Grotesque. Grotesque. We've crossed the line. Although Epstein Epstein is in the air at the moment. and will come on to Epstein will also come on to the Trump battleships. I think we should. talk about the ice videos and the memes they're putting out there. We've got a lot to talk about today, but I. Don't forget Steve Wyckoff, the dumbest man in America now loose upon the world.

Steve Whitcomb, who was personally selected. to solve the crisis between or the war between Ukraine and Russia. By who? Who was he personally chosen by. Vladimir Putin? By Vladimir Putin, who was the former head of which organization? The KGB. And you you don't have to turn people anymore. I mean, it used to be, remember, in the cold, Cold War, you had to turn your spies,

now you just get an American dummy who will do your bidding. Well, now they can just hand-pick them. So I think he's going like, no, no, no, Steve, with golf, I like with golf. Anyway, we'll be coming on to that very good story in the Wall Street. Journal. But before we did that, I wanted to tackle, some comments that we got because we got a lot of comments. about two specific things. One is the amount of money that Congress people get paid. We were discussing the role of congressmen and women and in particular.

in the context of Marjorie Taylor Greene leaving. And you had said somewhat flippantly, I think, look, they don't earn very much. She got no, no, no money. Not too flippantly. I mean, I mean, this I mean, I think that this is from a, you know, people with, with law degrees who advanced in their profession, you know, not a large amount of money, I mean, and, and you could in so many other walks of life,

you, the person who is in Congress, make more money. That's a that's a rate limiting factor in, in getting high caliber. people to go to run for Congress. Well, it used to be. that people would make their money and then go into government. I you know, I'm not I'm not really sure that that's true. Congress people have been historically, you know, people from the from the community there.

You know, sometimes they're they're rich, but sometimes they're there everyday folk. That's they that's the point about Congress, the everyday folk chamber. So are you in favor of paying them much more? I mean, there are a lot of people out there saying. we should pay them a minimum of $1 million, attract the best possible talent. You know, I. think that the I think that this is. this is symptomatic from just a greater problem in the country,

which is the the discrepancy between. between people's incomes, between, you know, potential. trillionaires and, and others. I think it's all out of whack. 100. I mean, Congress people make $174,000 a year, which should be a perfectly respectable sum of money to make. I just saw a study recently.

It seemed to be a reputable study that said, you know, basically, basically you can't, that, that, that the, the line, and I'm trying to think how the line was defined. I mean, I think it was basically, basically you couldn't get into the middle. class. This is just the middle class line was at $140,000 a year. So we're we're in a I mean, this is a central issue.

I mean, this goes to the functional, the affordability issue, the biggest issue of of our time. And, I mean, I'm perfectly sympathetic to the fact that $174,000 seems to many, many people like a, like a, you know, a. a reasonable sum of money to make and it should be a reasonable sum of money. But but then that gets compared to peers who are making,

you know, I mean, we don't millions beyond beyond millions. And, so, you know, I think. that a great many people in Congress, feel that, they can't stay in Congress, actually. Well, there's a record number of people leaving Congress. I think it's 54. They're saying it's the highest, the highest number of people. leaving, Congress this time round.

There was a lot, a lot of people left, I want to say, in 2008. And clearly, it's becoming so contentious for a lot of people. that they don't want to stay. And people are getting doxed and their addresses are out there. and people are feeling nervous for their families. And then there's there's active. And then there's another aspect of this which if if you have been in Congress, well, that credential, then. if you just leave Congress allows you to make to take a quantum leap.

forward in, in personal income and net worth. Yeah. And I think the other thing that makes it more complicated, and you're right to talk about the source of enormous inequality. is just the visibility of people showing off on social media platforms. And I referenced Jeff Bezos earlier, but the pictures of him and Lauren Sanchez. going to Aspen today, they're going to a special shop that apparently they go to.

They're both wearing gray cowboy hats. Let's just linger on that for a second and that they're sort of flamboyant. lifestyle, I think must be very irritating to a lot of people that work at Amazon. and the the drivers who have to pee in bottles. The people who are, you know, sag all over those enormous Amazon warehouse. No, I mean, this is the central issue. This is the issue that that that defeated Joe Biden and may well defeat. Donald Trump or or the Donald Trump's,

party in 2026. But there there is. I mean, there's this other the other thing, too, which is, you know, the Congress should be the every guy place. But, you know, if you then start to parse this, remember, if you go to Congress, you have to you have to basically mean to maintain two residences. You are from somewhat somewhere else. Then you have to live in Washington two and then you have families.

You have to I mean this is, this is. just another aspect of this system that is broken. Right. And then the other comment that people had for us was, somehow equating Joe Biden's, decline with Donald Trump's decline. And people felt that we were unfair, that we were both citing it when in fact, Joe Biden wasn't a psychopath, which is what.

a lot of our viewers believe Donald Trump is going to. I'm going to push back on on that. You know, I mean, listen, I think, I mean, I mean, I think the country would be better off. if Joe Biden were was better off when Joe Biden was president. Would probably would certainly be better off if he were still president. But this is this is what we're comparing the wrong things. I mean, it it is if if there's a health concern.

with the president, you know, states whether he's, whether he's a functional. good guy or a functional asshole doesn't make any difference. It's a health concern. I mean, we have the right American citizens, have the have the right. to believe that they have a president. who is fully compos mentis. And, and, and Joe Biden. obviously had had a whole set of handicaps in this regard.

And Donald Trump probably does too. And the issue really is not politics. The issue is age. Yeah, I agree, and we had Doctor John Gartner, the clinical psychologist, on the podcast, Sunday. And he was saying that the idea that Donald Trump is taking. all these medical tests repeatedly is very much a sign. that doctors are monitoring his dementia, that that's what. He.

Well, it may or may not be a sign. I mean, you know, this guy and I always take somewhat exception to doctors. who are, diagnosing without ever. having met the patient in, question. So, Well, here's and his counterattack to that would be that actually. with Donald Trump, you can do that because you have 40 years of a baseline against which to tell. You, I'm well, I know what he's going to say. He's not going to say, yeah, why am I doing this? That's, that's that's clearly what it is.

And I have also said, I mean, I think voters in, in a world in which we don't. get this information and we're not going to get this information, but not least of all because this information would be. pretty devastating to a presidency. We all have to become our our own. We have to make our own diagnosis. This is part of now. This is part of the democratic process. How do you evaluate a candidate?

Well, you have to have a diagnosis. You have to you have to make your own diagnosis. because you're never going to get an accurate one. So in that regard, I guess it's it's. good to have doctors who are. Well, who are willing to say what what they what they say. We're having met and met the patient, although it seems a little, a little ethically challenged. But anyway, I think that's a reasonable argument. that because you've heard someone speaking and you can track his speech patterns.

over a long period of time, you can see speech patterns in decline. And that's what he's saying anyway. We don't have to relitigate it here. If people want to watch it, they can watch it on the Daily Beast podcast. But we do have to get into the release of The Epstein Files, the. the sort of stop start release of the rules. Let's, it's a, sort of the rolling release, the release. Release.

And then there's a bit of a snatch back to yesterday. There was a release, and then there was some sudden redactions, and there was a pulling back. Then there was a rerelease. It's a very jittery train right now. You know, and I think it it goes to, you know, probably the, the, the fallacy of this, you know, we're in this in this moment when release hits. like that's, that's the thing that's going to answer all questions. Release.

I mean, just saying the word seems to say, okay, that'll solve the problem. Release it. Right. When no one knows what it is. and even release what is release means. So you, you you put up a lot of information on, on a website. without context, without with barely any catalog of what the information. There's no died, there's no index. It's impossible to search. You don't know what you're looking for.

So rather than solve the mystery, it increases the mystery. And, you know, I'm, I kind of wonder who to blame this on. I mean, partly it's partly it's the Democrats, and, and, and I suppose, I suppose. in another world, if the Democrats had been in control of. either House of Congress, they would have they would have, they would have run.

a, a more, a more formal. and considered investigation, but not being. Why is it, why is it the Democrats fault? Well, obviously the Republicans don't want to consider this issue at all. A few Republicans do, but the larger Republican Party clearly does not. And clearly the white House doesn't, doesn't want to. And I mean, I'm just thinking that how this how this came. this idea of the release, release the files,

as though that would solve the problem. As though that would answer all questions and, in all, in the other, I mean, Congress has usual usually. I mean, I actually don't ever remember this being being in, that there was a, that this was the consensus solution. release everything in in the past. it has been you run an investigation.

Let's find out what happens here instead of this idea of releasing the files. And I think this has to do with this whole idea of transparency. We need complete transparency. But as we're seeing, the problem with transparency. is that, you don't. you see, by seeing everything or, or what is theoretically. everything you see, you don't know what you're looking at. Well, until inevitably there's now all sorts of fakes.

which, confusing people. I mean, let's discuss. the completely implausible fake, which seem to have fooled a lot of people, which is a video. of Jeffrey Epstein supposedly trying to hang himself in his jail cell. as if taken from a camera in his jail cell, which, of course, was never there. So what? You what do you. mean, what you.

I mean, I can't even imagine how this how that piece. of information got into this information, right? Except that this information, the Epstein file, turns out to be a funnel of everything undifferentiated. Somebody said something. related in some way, but without any, any without any particular point, purpose or or.

or, AI or anything inside it. that is that it is true that just going into the file. So the file is essentially a garbage can of everything. mentioning Jeffrey Epstein. But there are also a lot of interesting things in there, like the fact. that Donald Trump was on the Epstein plane far more than had been expected. And as you've always said, there is nothing like the beat.

of a private plane to get people to come to, you know? And Epstein always used to say that Trump that Trump wanted to be on his plane. because because he didn't want to spend the money on the gas on his flight. Of course, and the pilots and everything that it takes. There's also a fake letter, Supposedly, although we don't know that it's fake. I mean, everybody I mean, we're now we're now, a, we've now. qualified this letter, but we I'm on no basis at all.

Although it would seem to me that it's fake. This is the letter we're talking about from Larry Nassar, the former. American Olympic gymnastics coach. In jail for his own, sexual abuse scandal. Yeah, terrible sexual abuse, consistent over years. The docs doctor treating the Olympic team and abusing them. in front of their parents as their parents sat in the room sometimes.

I mean, really peculiar, and a very sort of strange letter. that you immediately detected was fake, or at least very unlikely. Yeah, I, I don't I mean, as I mean, from what I know, when Epstein was communicating with people outside of the outside. of jail, those communications passed through his lawyers. I mean, when you communicate. with someone, you write a letter from jail that's actually, you know, there's you have no guarantee of of of privacy there.

And I think in Jeffrey Epstein's case, everything. would have been been scrutinized. So therefore, therefore your, your in in jail on a charge on charges. involving well trafficking sexual abuse and then you're going to write, effectively a confession to another, sexual abuser. That seems implausible. And it also seems like it is designed.

to implicate Trump. I, I'm I'm confused by the whole thing, actually. Well, and also, it says, as you will know by now, I have taken the short route I the implication. Oh, yeah, it's a writes a suicide letter to someone. I'd like to. Yeah. To someone I guess what it is in there. and apparently and we don't know where this comes from. Apparently it comes from the prison system. It was there was a letter that it was marked.

This is return to sender. I don't know it again. What does this what does this mean? Does it mean anything or or the fact that it is a fake? What does that mean? Right. And, you know, presumably you would have thought that the DOJ. would have a separate file for things that seemed very clearly fake.

Well. You would, but you don't know what they what they have. I mean, this is not, you know, the. but what we don't we don't know. We don't know. And, and, and Congress. did not ask for this material. to be categorized in any specific way. So if you had an, an investigation, a formal investigation, then you would have this is what people do.

It's a really it's really an issue of qualifying information. Now theoretically, Congress. could now qualify this information except that everybody has seen it. So the waters have already been, to say the least. Muddied. But I don't think we have seen it. I mean, they, they're they're releasing thousands of documents. It's impossible to read through them all. Oh, it's impossible to keep up up with this. And, And is that is that the point?

I mean, that may well be the the point on the part. of the Justice Department in the white House. How do we, how do we obscure what we don't want to see? Well, then we give you too much. I mean, it's it's actually, you know. Let's flood the zone. Right? Old trick. Yeah. Yeah, you've you've said to say and there was certainly reports. that there were over that when Cash Patel and Dan Bongino came in to run the FBI, they had more than a thousand agents working on the Epstein case,

which is also an extraordinary use of the FBI. No. So, so again, we are at this release the files, release the files. as though this was going to clear up everything. All right. And now it has the, the the, the opposite effect. Right. So what should we be looking for in these files?

You know, I know, I know from my my own personal window into this, and let's let's clarify the question, especially when it comes to Donald Trump. What did he know? When did he know it? Did he participate in it? And, you know, one of the things Epstein always said. and outlined with, with great specificity to me that they, he and his. best friend Donald Trump broke up over a real estate deal.

in, in 2004, Epstein. had bid $36 million for a house in Palm Beach. He took his friend Trump with him to advise it was a winning bid. He believed, he took his friend Trump with him. to advise him on how to move the swimming pool. His friend Trump went around his back. and bid $41 million for the house. Epstein believed that that his friend Trump, did not have the money.

That means he was fronting for somebody. angry about this, he threatened to expose his friend Trump. Both. Both illegally in a lawsuit and going to the press. At which point Epstein believe Donald Trump went to the Palm Beach police. And as Epstein said, dropped a dime on him, revealing,

revealing what was going on at, at, Jeffrey Epstein's house. So there is a point of intersection. is, is the the investigation of the Palm Beach police. involved in the, in these Epstein files? We don't know. But here is a a very precise. question was, was,

did the beginning of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. involve a confidential informant. whose address was Mar-A-Lago? Okay, well, that should send various. people who are listening to this various detectives off to find, as Jeffrey. Epstein referred to Donald Trump in one of his emails that emerged from the, Epstein files. The dog that didn't bark.

And also, there is specifically in those in those emails. And matter of fact, it may have been in one of the emails, to me that, that Trump knew about the girls. Yeah. And when was that sent? I, I think in, I don't. know, 2018 or 20, 2019. And then that was the one and then he said, and, and he wanted. Maxwell to stop.

And then there's been some issue about that. What did what did he want Maxwell to stop? And, did he want Maxwell to stop, to stop getting girls? I think that's that was the that's how a lot of people read it. I, I read it, and I and and actually, I. to the extent it is possible to know, I know that, that. that the reference here was to Maxwell's suit against,

against Jeffrey, and, and, and Trump. wanted that suit to stop because Maxwell was going to have to testify. in the things that might come out related to the girls. So Trump wanted her to stop her defamation suit against Virginia Giuffre. Yes. I remember they were both suing each other. There were there were and it suit and countersuit. Right. Okay. And Trump wanted that, not Epstein wanted that or they both wanted that.

I think that they both wanted that. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, we're going to rely on people. like us going through this with a tooth comb, hopefully, and the fakes being weeded out and the real stuff coming to the surface. I noticed today the half that. So we're sort of crowdsourcing the in this investigation. So yeah, it's a very good way of putting it. I noticed today that the Harvard Crimson, who are clearly,

spending a lot of time looking for information relating to Larry. Summers, the former president of Harvard, and obviously someone who's recently. had to step back from all sorts of things, including what must have been. a very lucrative seat on the Open Air Board, that he was a back up executor to Jeffrey Epstein's will. There were two people, I think, who worked for Epstein as executors. And then just Staley, who at the time was the CEO of Barclays. since, been forced to give up that role.

And Larry Summers was the back up executor. Which, you know, I mean, one of the things. and one of the things that would point to Jeffrey. Epstein, a greater likelihood, that Jeffrey Epstein did kill himself is that he changed. his will in the days, really hour, almost hours prior to his death.

And one of his concerns was to take people out of the line of fire. He didn't want their names in this, because he knew that. Would that would, the blowback against them would be would be devastating. And I think this, when he appointed, Larry Summers and I need to check, but it was, several years before before he died.

Right. And, you know, and, you know, summers may not even. I mean, he's, he was on the third tier. Summers may not even have known. I mean, I mean, you know, you get you put when when you when you do your will, you, you kind of create these eventualities which you understand will never happen. This person dies. If this person dies and that person dies, and then that person dies, and then that person dies, it's you. Yeah, yeah, well, it was one of those. Anyway, it further implicates Larry Summers.

He's had plenty of blowback. So, so there you go. All right. Is there anything more for us to say about the Epstein files right now, or should we move swiftly on to Vladimir Putin's parlor. game of choosing who should be the American diplomat? Given that we haven't had an American ambassador to Russia since June? Vladimir Putin. choosing who should do his negotiations for him?

No. Well, it's I mean, this is Steve. Wyckoff, the president's, friend and golfing buddy. And Steve Wyckoff was a New York real estate guy, generally thought to be, far from the the the brightest bulb. been in a generally dim field, anyway. Well, in a in a Mar-A-Lago chandelier, perhaps. Yeah. I mean, he's so,

you know, and his entire credential for, now being one of the most. pivotal people at the, involved in questions. of World war and peace, is that he's he's he's. Donald Trump's friend. You know, he kind of hung around Trump. I mean, he had no official capacity with, with Trump. other than a kind of security blanket. And,

another theme here, a guy with a plane. So when when Trump's plane. and during the campaign, this happened in any number of times. when Trump's plane was out of commission, which happened all of the time. And, really, there was nothing. that, that made Donald Trump, nastier.

than when his plane went out of commission. But when it went out of commission, his friend Wyckoff. would send his plane to Subin for, the, the lack of, of, of of Trump's plane. Well, the white House is denying it, saying, of course it's ridiculous. And Steve Whitaker office is Trump's choice and Trump's choice alone. You mean you mean they're denying that, that. They're denying that Putin chose Steve Wyckoff?

They're saying that it was Donald Trump's decision alone, and they're saying the pieces is not true. Which they now say, and and let's there's little, little digression here that it's interesting that the Washington. that the that the Wall Street Journal, has done this story again. yet another quite devastating story in the Wall Street Journal. against the interests of Donald Trump. Yeah.

Following on from another devastating piece. in the Wall Street Journal, which laid out the entire. or as far as we know, the entire, level of Trump grift, and just how much money he's. been making him and his family, which is worth another episode. But I wanted to read something from, Well, just put a fine point, on, on that. How much money? Because, it is billions. Yeah. It's billions. So.

I mean, let's not. It's billions. It's not like, you know, we've collected, you know, everybody was was, kind of appalled that, you know, that Bill Clinton. after after the presidency, was able to earn $20 million. This is billions. Yeah. No, no, it's billions through a variety of all sorts of deals. And of course, the latest deal now being discussed is the Gaza deal. to develop the Gaza Strip with all sorts of things. But I'm sure that they want to develop along the border of Ukraine and Russia.

Perhaps they'll put in a series of hotels and condos there. We could get a timeshare. And and Steve Wynn, by the way, has also personally. made an enormous amount of money in his family. I think his son is the point person here. And, of course, we know that the Trump administration, pours scorn on what they call a history professors. that used to run the diplomatic service and have no interest in that. And then I was just going to read a little bit from the Wall Street Journal.

It's hard to pinpoint a moment in history when businessmen have had such direct. sway over matters of war and peace since the end of World War two, Washington's relationship with Moscow was its most carefully calibrated, helmed by spy agencies who knew their rival intimately seasoned. diplomats rehearsed rigid protocols to prevent misunderstandings. between two nuclear powers poised like scorpions in a jar.

And now, of course, we know that Wick offers declined offers of briefings. He doesn't like to go in with anybody else. Putin specifically requested that Wyckoff. would go and see him on his own without anybody else around. And then the diplomatic agencies, the State Department, the Marco Rubio. find runs has found it very difficult to debrief him. because he can't quite tell them exactly what was said. No. And the, the the first in the first.

reach out to Wyckoff, which came through the, the, the Saudis that came through MBS, the, the Saudi, the Saudi crown. prince was was. Yeah. Putin would like to speak to you alone. Know how terrifying I can imagine? No CIA? No, no. Anyone else alone?

So possibly the eight most frightening words in the English language. Putin would like to see you alone. Terrifying. Is that eight words? I think it's eight words. Yeah. I mean, so so we're at a point we can we can. we can mark this point if this all comes a cropper. Russia takes over Ukraine, Russia, then in.

continues its and increases. its incursions into Europe, threatening Europe. Well, there you go, Steve Wyckoff. Steve Wyckoff, but maybe we can buy a cheap condo on the border, Michael. And then we could do the podcast from there. I am, I mean, people in New York. who know Wyckoff, I mean, they it's really. I mean, these are this is some serious eye rolling. Well, Steve says, as we know, he and Gerard have said about themselves.

before, after their peace deal in the Middle East, that they're. kind of deal guys and they don't think like traditional diplomats. They try and put themselves in the shoes of the other person. they're negotiating with, as if nobody had ever thought about that before. But the deal, guys. So let's see what kind of deal they come up with. Well, it's a the Wall Street Journal had a phrase, a kind of a, you know, I go. back some ways, so I'm kind of a 60s guy and,

Make Love Not War was a foundational principle, of my generation. And the Wall Street Journal, updated that make money, not war. Right? Make grift, not war. Well, President Bone Spurs friend is, on top of it, and he's going to create world peace. Which leads us to President Bone spurs, new toys.

in the Department of Defense slash war. What am I referring to? Well, he he has, he has requisitioned. a whole new class of battleships. And this is now called the. Trump class. Of course, the Trump class, which will be the biggest class. The best class. So what is.

I mean, what does it mean. that Trump slaps his name on everything? And remember, of course, he has done this for his entire career, right? The foundation. I mean, I can tell you what it means. This is easy. The foundation of his career. is slapping his name on everything. This is the fundamental insight. He may never have had any other insight, but this, you know, buildings, real estate, guys didn't put their names.

on buildings. You know, I don't know. They just never occurred to them or they thought, were a real estate guys. Wait, why do we, why should our names go on buildings? Trump said, no, I'm going to create these buildings. Are brands. This is my brand. This is what I'm going to create. I'm going to put my name on these buildings and not small. I'm going to put it as big as it can possibly be.

I'm going to put my name on every thing. that I can put my name on. And now. we're at this point in, in his presidency. where that's exactly what he is doing to everything. I mean, there's, there's it's the Trump Kennedy Center. It's, The Trump Institute of World Peace. It's the Trump battleship. And yet will the Trump battleship go the way of Trump steaks?

Trump University? Trump what? Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, a lot of people. Yes. I mean, a lot of people are noting the thesis that this is already a, a that that outfitting these battleships. and requisitioning the battleships in the way that he has requisitioned. This is, I, you know, is is fighting, yesterday's war.

Well, fighting yesterday's war and also slapping it with the curse of. Donald Trump. The things that he puts his name on for the, for the most part, don't work. Well, it's a it's also a funny thing because what you have. and if I were Donald Trump, this might have. seems like a likely. something that you would consider the ignominy. of having your name removed.

Yes. Because. I mean, an I, you know, a Democrat. I mean, at some point a Democrat is going to be the president. of the United States and, and presumably, you know, a, you know, a highly popular move would be to take down Donald Trump's name. Well, and also, I mean, God bless her, there is a congresswoman from Ohio. who's filed saying who sued, saying this is illegal.

It needs the permission of Congress to rename a memorial like this. So now it this is going to get caught up in the legal process. Joyce Beatty from Ohio, congresswoman from the third. district there has filed saying this is illegal. It needs Congress's permission. You need Congress's permission to change the name of the Kennedy Center. So God bless her. Joyce, you're doing God's work and, that will turn into a whole. But let's let's go inside Trump's.

head here and think about what is he thinking about. Other than obviously that this has always worked for him. But on the other hand, putting your name up. there means someone can remove your name. And, and that's not going to feel very good. And it's going to be a signal that you have lost. the thing that Trump most does not want to, want it to be said about him,

which is why would he that it's that he's a loser. They've taken his name away now, so why would he? Why would he set himself up like this? Well, and why does he keep on doing it? What is he trying to. Well, the the answer much. Well, the answer must be that he believes that's not going to happen, that he is going to that this, that. this ensures his permanence, not his transience.

Right. Because he feels transient. Well, it doesn't or not, he may. I'm saying he may have. He may have a plan for permanence. This is what he's setting this up for. And maybe it is. I mean, maybe it is just the the notion of brand. that you convince people that this is what what this is the name. This is what it's called.

People and people forget, they they just kind of. suddenly, suddenly were, the Trump Kennedy Center is rolling off the tongue. So this is a way to just another way. to ensure one's permanence, one's legacy. Legacy for him is not anything that you. that that you do or anything that you accomplish. The legacy is the name Trump.

Now, it seems to us reason of logical. that a Democrat will come along and poof, you know, wipe this away, you know? But he's been doing this for a long time. Maybe he's got a better idea about about, about what people get used to. It was interesting that the font of Donald Trump. going above the Kennedy Center, it's slightly smaller, it's a slightly different font, and it felt like. whoever had been called in to add his name up was either being.

very quietly passive aggressive or indeed having a joke at the president's expense. Yeah, well, he'll he'll clean that up. I mean, he'll see that and he'll order it. He'll order his name bigger than Kennedy. Well, the Kennedy family of course, have come out and said, this is outrageous. Kerry Kennedy, has vowed to Robert Kennedy sister. has vowed to personally.

take his name off the side of the building the moment he is, out of office. Well, then she will get the latter. Get up there and do it herself. Then RFK Jr will run for president. And if he becomes the. president, then it will be the Kennedy Trump Kennedy Center. Yes, exactly. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness Michael Wolff. All right. What else is there for us to discuss.

You know, the. another a story, curiously, in the Washington Post about. the these ice videos. Now, this is funny because I would have I mean, this. this story is that that, that the Trump White House and ice are, are staging these videos or looking for opportunities to create these videos. and then pushing them out on social media in these videos, to make no mistake,

are Ice arresting, arresting whoever it arrests? We don't even know who they are. They don't know who they are. They don't know if they're arresting citizens. They don't know if they're arresting perfectly law abiding people. They're just arresting. Well, under a there's a trove of emails which says they don't know who. they're arresting. They just under enormous pressure to arrest as many people as they can,

make lively videos of them and flood the zone with these videos. Now, this is, this is kind of kind of curious because. Because in what world do. these guys think this makes them look good? And these videos are, by the way, competing with man on the street. videos, iPhone videos, showing basically the same thing.

So we have, we have, a flood across social media. of people in extremis suffering, of guys in masks, guys in black in masks. Acting as a, as a, as a paramilitary force, an internal police force, whatever. Whatever you'd however you'd like to characterize it,

but you can't characterize it, in a way that it's going to make people feel good. It would seem to me. Well, it's interesting because they've really created. these videos largely for social media, for reals. And most importantly for TikTok, which we know now is going to go. to Donald Trump's close friend Larry Ellison, second richest. man in the world with, I think, a small helping for Rupert Murdoch.

But they're set to music. They're chopped up as if they are some kind of rap video. In fact, they've been using rap music and some of the artists have come forward. and said, well, you can't use my songs for that. They did it to Sabrina Carpenter. She she was outraged that they would use her songs to do this, but the whole thing is presented as if it's entertainment. So these are people who are being arrested. We have no idea if they've done anything illegal or not. We don't know if they're here illegally or not. We just know that they're largely Hispanic. They are treated as if this is entertainment and it's unbelievably cruel.

And as you say, it's actually up against the videos that real people who. see this going on film on their cameras and also upload to TikTok. So the. and then the one thing I would add is there has been incredible pressure. from the white House for the Department of Homeland Security. to be pumping out these videos every day so that increasing the number. of influencers who can create this content and pump it out there.

At one point they were pumping out a video every half an hour. So what's in Trump's head about about this? How does he think this is good for him? I mean, let's let's think of this in, in media terms. People get inured to it. Or he believes that that, that the that the greater American populace.

that has issues with immigration is going to cheer this on. Or, or or or or what? I can't really even think. I think beyond that. I guess he's thinking or perhaps he's thinking one doesn't want to. to claim one knows. That's our job. Okay, then. I think he thinks it makes it look like. ice is very busy, that they're doing a lot of what we know.

They're recruiting hugely for ice. And if you get through the training, you get a $10,000 bonus. And I think he's making it look like it's. He thinks it looks like it's fun. And I think if you're a sociopath, you do think it's fun. So it's. Like a video. Game. Yeah. No, no, I get it. So it's it's a bet that Americans are, Will, will will regard this with,

with a certain degree of, of, equanimity and cheerfulness. that seems to me a wrong headed bet, but, you know, Well, I was looking at the numbers on the white House. Tick tock. Account and how. many were watching these videos, and one of them in particular, which is captioned, are that deportation feeling? I think that one had 45 million views, actually. So that's a that's a lot of views.

That is a lot of views. That's his a lot of his. I was hoping that they wouldn't have that many. But but we don't know how many people were just looking at it. thinking, I can't believe they're putting this out. We don't know that. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's one of those other things. And we have, you know, you know, essentially the politics of the last ten years has. been has been a bet which a lot of people like, like me, like, like us have lost.

that the American people will see through that or won't tolerate that, or will say hey to, hey, wait a minute to that. And they. don't, but they. almost do, you know, I mean, remember, this is an incredibly divided country. And so, I mean, I'm. always amazed, continue to be amazed that these guys are.

make these kind of these kind of kind of, existential bets. Yeah. We can we can do this, and it's going to fly. I mean, because it never exactly flies. So, I, I refuse to believe that we're quite as divided. as everybody says, I think are the people on the margins. And then most people are actually. somewhere in the middle and consider themselves independents. Moderate. And what are those? What are those people going to think about these videos?

I think they're going to be horrified at the idea of videos. of mothers and children in particular, being pushed to the floor. There's one particular video which I should. Fight, so why would they why would why would the white House make this. bet that, I mean, this seems obvious to me and to and to us, but I'm trying to see they see and. and have often seen something else. True. I think what we're seeing in the polling, and as much as it can be trusted,

is that the Hispanic vote or Hispanic communities. are feeling less confident in Trump than they did when they voted for him. All right, that would seem utterly intuitive to me. But what I'm trying not to discount. is what this what what the Trump White House sees, because I have discounted it many times, and I have been wrong.

and many, many people in the United States. have discounted it and they have been wrong. And I can't imagine that we would be wrong on this. These are people being ripped from their homes, ripped from their cars, ripped from their jobs. We don't know who they are. We don't know if they deserve any in any way to be, ripped out of out of their lives, by men again in masks and in black.

That certainly seems like a, like, like an error that anyone would think that this would, would, that people would cheer this on. Well, the off year election cycle suggests that, you know, in November. we saw, very confident votes in Virginia and in New Jersey for Democrats. So let's see. But I was going to ask you, what do you think the significance. is of this story being in The Washington Post?

I mean, we've got Jeff Bezos in his gray hat living it up in Aspen. The Washington Post. also had the story about Pete Hegseth saying that he was, that he had demanded. that Admiral Bradley, who was in charge of the Venezuelan operation, make sure that he kill any survivors from one of the boat blasts.

So two big stories coming out of the Washington Post, which it appeared had been somewhat neutralized. Well, you know how these things and God knows, we've worked for enough. enough publications with, semi, distracted or absentee owners and, and it usually works that they are semi distracted and absentee. and they're not very really all that interested in content. And they're interested at all.

But they're interested in. what in the proximity that it gives them to power. Yeah. And the white House. Right. Yeah. No, no that is true. The so they're concentrating on that rather then then you know, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure Jeff Bezos. at best glances at the paper. So but then, then they do notice it at some point Trump calls them up. or somebody calls him up and says, what the fuck here, you know, and then.

and then they get rattled and then they make the phone call. But it's it's a balance. It goes back and forth like that until they get very mad, and then they fire somebody and make a change. And then and then that's, that's a different kind of kind of moment. Well, we know he got Jeff Bezos, got involved enough to drop. the endorsement that the paper was going to make of the Democratic candidate. So they they changed their op ed pages. Right? Yeah. David Shipley left. Right.

No, they do they do get involved and they do weigh in. But but the paper proceeds along as it would. This is an this is a large a large institution. It does what it does. It reacts in a certain in a certain way and continues. to react that way until someone slaps them. And and so and they may they may well shortly. get slapped again or Jeff Bezos may be thinking,

Jesus, this Donald Trump is in trouble here. Let's let's. Oh. Do you maybe. Take our bets? Or he may be thinking, well, I've paid his wife. 4 million, $40 million for the Melania documentary. That should keep him off my back. 70% of the back end. And she gets 100% of the upset by that deal. Sponsorship by that. Oh, I say that whenever we mention Melania. And if you haven't watched the trailer people, you really must. It's delicious. It's delicious.

It does appear that she didn't watch the the election victory. I'm assuming that's what she's referring to when he says to her. It opens with a phone call of Donald Trump saying to Melania, did you see it to do. watch it? And she's like, no. Mr.. Oh, she goes, hello, Mr. President. And then he goes, did you watch it? Did you see it? Did he see it on television? She goes, no, I will watch it on the news. And so, so maybe Jeff Bezos thinks that. the $40 million for the documentary is enough.

Or maybe he thinks Donald Trump is going south. I think so, and so is hedging is. But yes. Well, I think a lot of people are probably thinking. that they were overzealous. in their support of Donald Trump at the beginning of his, at the beginning of his presidency and, and now beginning to feel a little. You know, that's a that's a good subject that we should come back to. because all of these guys, all of these business guys, what happens to them if if this really does go south?

Well, what's a. chilling note to end on for the holidays, Michael. But that's an optimist that I would consider that an optimistic note. So we have a special treat for viewers and listeners on Thursday. We've done a special on Donald Trump's relationship with television. and how television basically created his presidency. and how his essential operating system is television. And I will say it's one of the most fun conversations I think I've had with you.

Not just created the presidency, but created him. Created him, rebirthed him. as a successful character at a time in his life. When I would be. Able to defer that he just does not exist as a as a human being outside of. Television. Well, it's one of the best conversations I think I've, I've had with you. And we touch on all the characters, that influenced it. Jeff Zucker, Mark Burnett and of course,

Roger Ailes, who founded Fox News, and then Sean Hannity, who turns into the. the president's most important adviser. Yeah. So, yes. So you could have a merry Christmas with Donald Trump and television. Yeah. So instead of watching television, you can watch YouTube and Michael's. very thoughtful explanation of it and my continual, machine gun lib questions.

Anyway, have a very happy holiday between now and then. Michael, what are you doing for Christmas Eve? I imagine you skipping through the village of Amagansett with little lanterns. in your children's singing carols at the top of their voice? Yes. And actually there is a, a Presbyterian church. just a few doors down from from. from our house. And, and I'm, I'm quite familiar.

with Presbyterian churches, and this is a kind of classic one in. which about 12 people show up and they're all over some, some, impressive, age threshold and, and we we go, we like it. All right, well, have a lovely Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, and I will see you back for whatever has happened. between now and then, on Saturday. Fantastic. All right. Happy holidays.

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