How I’ll Hold Royals to Account Over Epstein Ties | The Daily Beast Podcast

And launching a campaign with Nolan Baker about royal transparency with the mail. To make their finances less opaque. And I mean, these are things. that we wouldn't be able to do or wouldn't even thought of doing. if we'd felt the Royal family was. was getting ahead of the story and dealing with it. And there is a suspicion. that Andrew will never face charges that the royal family will ensure that. basically he continues to be protected as he has been. and nothing really has changed. The elites will take care of themselves, whether it's here in the States.

I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast, and it's hard to think of an author whose have more impacts this year. than the British traditional establishment historian than Andrew Loney, whose book entitled we covered when it came out last September, and who really, as he will go on to say, loosened. the earth around the reporting of Andrew, formerly. known as Prince Andrew, his wife Fergie, and, of course, Jeffrey Epstein. He talks about the impact on the royal family and all sorts of revelations.

which, frankly, no one believed at the beginning because they seemed so outlandish. And of course, they were just the tip of the iceberg. Now, before we go any further, I have to remind you, please subscribe to The Daily Beast if you haven't. We are independent media. There aren't that many of us around, so we rely on your support. and we appreciate it. And you can become a Beast tier member if you like, which allows you into a very exclusive salon.

Anyway, no time to waste. Andrew Loney is full of the goods. The paperback of his book is just out and it's full of revelations. And of course, between the hardback and the paperback, we had Andrew stripped of his title by his brother, the King. We had him arrested on his 66 birthday, and we had that extraordinary picture. distributed by Reuters, taken by Phil Nobles, of him. looking utterly gobsmacked in the back of a Range Rover.

as he was driven away by his security from the police station. Andrew Loney, let's get into it. Extremely. excited to have Andrew Loney back with us. Andrew, I'm going to take a tiny bit of credit. because we had you on right at the beginning of the publication. of entitled the hardback last fall since then. Well, I'm looking at you, and you seem the very image of an English historian.

Distinguished gray hair, light blue shirt. I imagine you're about to stroll out to Wimbledon. Any strawberries or possibly go to Lord to to Ascot. Are you? Can you go down the street now without people wanting to either. shout at you or rush up and applaud you for your impact on. Andrew, formerly known as Prince? Well, you're absolutely right.

Daily beast got in there very early, and I think it's as a result of. of being on the Daily Beast. I do get accosted. I'm always nervous. I'm going to get a punch on the face. of what happened to John Grigg when he wants to be an honest friend. So I tread carefully. But yes, I'm all set. I'm not sure I'm going to be invited to ask it this year, but. yes, I'm looking forward to the summer and the book. I mean, what's extraordinary is the news headlines still keep coming. in, which of course is great news for the book.

So the book comes out and it causes an absolute uproar. And I've been tracking you trying to write this book, too, because you had all sorts of interference as you were trying to do it. What are. just remind. our viewers and listeners, what were the. the revelations in the book that shocked everybody so much? And then, of course, the paperback edition, which has just come out now. I mean, I feel like the entire royal family.

has been shaken upside down by the arrival of your book. And then, of course, the double whammy of the of the Epstein files. and what we discovered about Andrew's friendship and Fergie's friendship. with Jeffrey Epstein, which they'd lied about. So just take us through the initial revelations. and then everything that's happened since in terms. of Andrew and Fergie and the impact on the King. Well, I suppose what I did was I loosened the earth.

And I mean, clearly there's been reporting on both Andrew and Fergie. for years and the mischief they've got up to. No one had pulled everything together. And I think what I managed to do was I talked to about 300 people, many of them quite close. The former naval mentor of Andrew, his commander of the Falklands, lots of people who had never spoken before. And a picture emerged of basically two grifters who'd been allowed to operate. for 40 years, using their royal status to make money for themselves, basically protected by the Queen and later by King Charles.

And so this became a story. not just about two bad apples, but about endemic corruption. within an institution, which really needs much more transparency. And I think that's the big change, I think because the royal family have kind of. not really got ahead of the story. They've always just moved, been forced kicking. and screaming to make a few changes. There are now wider questions being asked about their accountability and privilege, but I think the real game to two game changers really were for Junior Jeffrey's.

book, which I think really brought home the human side of the story. And then the Epstein releases, which gave us chapter and verse, you know, email after email, awful pictures of Andrew. leering over supine girls, just how awful this story was. And then very good work by particularly by Substack. and by podcasts like Daily Beast, Tom Sykes and others who have really begin. to dug into the story. Look at the files.

and which have confirmed much what I found from my sources, but clearly have gone further in terms of what was going. on, for example, at the Zorro Ranch and elsewhere. So, Andrew, since the book's come out. And of course, you're right to mention Virginia. Drew Phrasebook and The Epstein Files and our own royalist Tom Sykes. reporting Andrew has lost his royal title. He's now known as Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. He's been taken out of his royal residence. and sort of dispatched to the furthest corners of Sandringham.

And then, of course, there was that astounding arrest. on his 66th birthday very early in the morning. And the staggering picture by Phil Nobles of Reuters, of him. in the back of the car, looking absolutely shell shocked at what had happened. Where is the the police investigation right now. into Andrew and and what exactly are they looking for?

Well, we don't really know where. the police investigation is because they're keeping it very much under wraps. I mean, I think it perhaps isn't as far advanced as one would hope, the fact that Thames Valley. Police have kind of basically put a call out for victims to come forward. suggests that they are struggling to get victims to talk to them. I understand that some victims are going to give a press conference in London. soon, and I think some things will come out then. I'm always a little cynical that a lot of this is performative,

that they're going through the motions. of appearing to investigate and do things, but nothing much is happening. I think one of the problems is. there isn't a great deal of cooperation from the Department of Justice. The Metropolitan Police, for example, have been asking for unredacted files and they aren't sharing them. And and also, the problem with if there are a whole range of charges. that could be brought sex. trafficking very difficult to identify the the girls that were involved, many of them were anonymous, have gone back to Ukraine or Sweden or wherever.

they came from. And a lot of them are now married with children. The last thing they want to do. is bring this story up again, their whole variety of charges. I mean, they're looking at misconduct in public office. They're saying it'll be very hard to bring. It's very hard. to show that he was an official as opposed to Mandelson, who was paid. He was sharing diplomatic, commercial and political secrets. with those who weren't entitled to see that material. And I think the law on that is very clear. So, I mean, the big question is, is what is happening.

in terms of police seem to be the most active. I mean, amazingly, Police Scotland hadn't said anything. Girls were being taken to Burkle and to Balmoral. And of course, we've had this BBC revelation from the weekend. that 33,000 emails which were hacked from Johnson Rowlands. years ago in another dispute, were passed to the Palace in 2020. Now the big question is what did they do with those? Some of that material had already appeared in papers.

like Blomberg and the Mail on Sunday has Lord appeal. Who was the Lord Chamberlain who's given that material six years ago? Has he done anything with it? I mean, it should have gone straight to the police. Or has this been part of a cover up? Does the King know about this? Was he told about this atrocious material? Andrew, let me just ask you. Because here we're not covering the royal news with the minutiae. that the British press are, perhaps, Tom Sykes notwithstanding.

But what what was the core of the 33,000 emails? The 33,000 emails are part of a legal dispute. between Jonathan Rowlands and one of his business partners. Jonathan Ronan is the son of David Rowlands. He was. They touted themselves as Andrew's business partners. and these emails and basically show how Andrew. was arranging for Jonathan Rowlands to go on trips with him as a trade envoy.

Andrew was introducing them on these trips to people who could be useful for them. in business indeed getting, for example, in Bastards in China to set up. separate meetings. for the Rowlands as opposed to others who are on this trade delegation. So we've seen some of this sort of material in the Epstein releases, but this is really hard evidence of how Andrew abuses position. and was working for the Rowlands as opposed to the British taxpayer. And to what extent do we think the Queen knew about this?

Well, I mean, I'm sure the Queen knew about it. She knew everything that was going on and made her her business to do so. I mean, it's interesting that the person who succeeded Lord peel. as Lord Chamberlain is a former head of MI5, Lord Parker, Christopher Gate, her former private secretary's ex intelligence corps. So she's surrounded by intelligence people. She's briefed by the intelligence services all the time. Both Sarah and Andrew actually. were being put under surveillance by the intelligence services, not because.

they were under surveillance themselves, but because the people they consorted were. with were of interest to to MI5 and MI6 and the National Crime Agency. And the fact is, this stuff has been in the press for the last 15 years. There are no surprises there. We had the story of Sarah Ferguson. selling access to Andrew for half 1 million pounds in 2010. Nothing happened to Andrew, nothing happened to Sarah Ferguson. No investigations, no reprimand. 2022 1.3 million pounds found in a court case.

to have been given to the Yorks, which they couldn't explain. Money given not just to Andrew but to Sarah Ferguson and one of the daughters. And we've had constant stories of the press having denials. from the palace about Epstein stories, then having legal threats. We had a back at ABC basically saying, I would like to run the story. and ABC being told that if they did so, they would lose access. to members of the royal family and they backed off.

So lots and lots of pressure being put on the media not to cover the story. I mean, ambassadors were told not to speak to me, for example, for my book, I've had a whole series of of interviews that never were never published in. that were rescinded. briefings against me saying that I made up this stuff. There's nothing new. I'm not a serious historian, etc. I mean, everything has sort of. been thrown to kind of muddy the waters because the fact is, you know,

there's some very damaging information that's come out about the royal family, and it looks like they've covered it up for the last, well, possibly the last ten years. So, Andrew, is it fair to say that the Queen and one thinks of her funeral? It was a global affair. Billions of people watched it, that there is a revised. view of the Queen now, because Andrew was supposed to be her favored child. and that she basically either enabled him.

or turned a blind eye to his grift. Which do you think it was? Well, I think it's very like Margaret Thatcher, you know, a revered figure, but had the blind spot with her son Mark. And I think that was the case with the Queen. She didn't want to know. She she preferred the information not to be brought to her, didn't want to accept it. I mean, the big question is why Prince Philip didn't step in, but I think she did in many ways help Andrew.

I mean, she would, for example, give him various rewards. When he was named in the Epstein files, he was made a Knight Commander. of the Royal Victorian Order. He was given the Knight of the Garter. She would very deliberately place him beside her in the car. She deliberately sent out signals that she believed her son. She accepted presents from some of the teachers. he was dealing with, particularly from early in Azerbaijan. Entertain them at the palace, basically, you know, put out the hand of friendship.

to these people who were doing business with her son and who were suppressing, you know, human rights and all sorts of things and their own countries. The Knight of the Garter, being awarded the Knight of the Garter for a friendship. with Jeffrey Epstein. Sounds about right, actually. I mean, it sounds like something that Jeffrey Epstein would be be doing. in his own mansion on East 71st Street. How is King Charles. dealing with Andrew now?

Well, I don't think he's he's doing a good job. I think the more ruthless he is, the more popular he is. And I think he's he's created a bigger problem there would have been. if he'd stepped in some time ago, even if last October, Andrew hadn't. been allowed to make that statement saying that he was standing down voluntarily. He denied the allegations. There was no mention of the victims. And people were so angry by that, that that Charles then had to step in. at the end of the month and take him away, take away his title. and kind of cut him loose.

But, you know, he did. If he had operated more quickly and he wouldn't have had this heckling, he wouldn't have these wider questions. being asked about royal accountability and privilege. And we now have I'm launching a campaign with Norman Baker about royal transparency. with the mail, you know, to make their finances less opaque. And I mean, these are things. that we wouldn't be able to do or wouldn't even thought of doing. if we'd felt the Royal family was. was getting ahead of the story and dealing with it. And there is a suspicion.

that Andrew will never face charges that the royal family will ensure that. basically he continues to be protected as he has been. and nothing really has changed. The elites will take care of themselves, whether it's here in the States. So who does Andrew hang out now with? I mean, on the one hand, we hear that he's sort of been banished to a sort of. dismal corner of Sandringham if there is a dismal corner of a royal estate. But but what is he? What is he actually doing during the day?

Well, I think he's talking to his lawyers. I'm told that a lot of the victims, the arrangements have been made to. pay them off. I think he's presumably anticipating how they will kill. Kill any charges that might be brought. I mean, my own feeling. is there going to be kicked into the long grass. and there won't be any charges in the current reign. But Gary Bloxham, specially his lawyer, specializes in basically cases. never coming to court. So they'll be looking at how. they can get Rudd any of the charges that might be brought.

He gets up late. He watches videos. He occasionally goes for a walk. It's a pretty lonely life. He has a close friend called Henry Anderson who comes and sees him, but it's his life with his family is pretty fractured. He's not seen his latest grandchild. His wife is kind of abandoned him. He's not in touch with his second daughter. So it's a pretty grim existence in some ways. My understanding talking to people who are close to him is. he doesn't seem to realize the seriousness of his situation.

I mean, we had that picture, as you say, taken on the day of his arrest, where he does look very shocked, but he sort of come back. He's kind of involved in trivialities where he's going to park his car. and, you know, why can't he go and go riding again? He doesn't seem to realize the, the seriousness. of of the charges that could be leveled against him. And where is Sarah Ferguson now? I mean, there was something so forlorn about her.

suck up to Jeffrey Epstein. And at one point, she's like, marry me, you know, because she's looking for a solution to her financial problems. Clearly. Where is she now? And what is she doing for money? I'm always fascinated from a very prosaic point of view, because I know how hard it I know how hard I work. and how hard it is to to live the life you want to lead financially.

They have much more grandiose ambitions, obviously, than I do. But. But how does she. How does she survive? Who's paying her? Where does the money come from? Well, I mean, the first question is, where is she? I don't know. I suspect she may be seeing the grandchild in Portugal. She may still be in Austria. She may be staying with Paddy McNally at his home in Wiltshire. She does have these little friends, most of whom bankroll her. Like Paddy McNally. Paddy McNally was her old boyfriend, right? Who she, I think dated before she married Prince Andrew.

Absolutely. I mean, it's relationship goes back, you know, almost 50 years. I mean, it's extraordinary. So that he's still there. I mean, she has a lot of sort of rich benefactors. I mean, Richard, she's close to Richard Branson. So all these people, I think, may have stepped in and maybe at least accommodating her. The what she's living off is a good question. I mean, she's they just sold a house in central London for 4 million pounds.

No one's actually worked out where that money's gone. It could be trust money for the daughters, and it's gone to the daughters. But it could be money that she's been given. She was living for a time off the credit cards of her daughters. She may well have saved some money over the years. I mean, she made a lot of money, even though she spent a lot. And. But I think you're right. Money is is a worry to her. And she will be. I know she was entertaining offers from television networks. to both give an interview and to be a presenter,

which is extraordinary that people feel she carries any credibility. Now I'm sure there'll be publishers who would commission a book offer. I mean, she's been paid huge. sums of money in the past for books which reveal very little. And I'm sure there are people in places like China and elsewhere. who will be only too happy to have her as a brand ambassador. So, who knows? But I think she will pop back. I think her she should be giving an interview to law enforcement. She should be acting as material witness to the Senate investigations.

But I think at the moment she's she's she's she's operating like a sort of Becky. Sharp just seeing what the best deal might be out there for her. Wow. So we know that the King is, as we've discussed, frequently, living with cancer. We don't know what kind of cancer. They've never made it public. But clearly, he still has plenty of energy. But at some point,

he will pass the crown or the crown gets passed to William. What do we know of William's relationship with Andrew at this point? And what do William and Kate. make of it all? Well, I think the relationship. William and Andrew has never been good, even when William was a child. I think it's there's a personal animus, and I think there's also a concern about the reputational damage. My understanding is there's tensions between William and Charles, because William doesn't feel that Charles is being sufficiently ruthless.

that he would like Charles to deal with this problem. It's also the problem of the daughters who kind of yo yo in and out of. of royal favor. One minute they're going to ask it or to Sandringham and the next they're not. And I think William wants basically a very sharp line. drawn between the York family and the rest of the royal family. doesn't want them to appear in public with any members of the royal family. I think it's unlikely. that daughters will attend Peter Philip's wedding this weekend.

And that's the tension, Charles, I think, perhaps. feels maybe it's easier to keep them inside the tent. And William feels that actually we should just take the hit. and not let them hold us to ransom as they have in the past. I mean, the rumors that Fergie is trying to negotiate some sort of deal, that she's paid off to keep quiet and provided with accommodation and a pension. I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. So I think, you know, there is a problem there in terms.

of, of of attitudes towards them by different members of the royal family. And I think some are more sympathetic to the Yorks. I think Princess Anne, for example, has put out a hand to her brother, whereas others feel that he's really beyond the pale. and they're worried that they're going to be fresh. Disclosures. You know, there may be more releases from the Epstein files, say victims are beginning to come forward and make public statements. I've had something like 60 people come to me in the last six months. with material. I've got about 200,000 words already of new material for a new book.

called Untitled Epstein and the Fall of Wind of the House of Windsor. So I think this is a bigger story. Now, it may be that Epstein was just trying. everyone of the royal family to see if he could find a little chink, like he was clearly using Sarah's away into Andrew and Andrew's away into. Charles and the Queen. But. he was targeting to the other royal families. But, you know, it would be very damaging if other Moser or family had been found. to have been compromised by Epstein in some form or another.

And of course, he was also using his friend Gillon Maxwell, who at one point with dating Prince Andrew to to get access to the royal family. Right? Yes, absolutely. I mean, it was all, you know, he used any means he could and there were. all sorts of connections, you know, that anything that raised his credibility, his access, his his further contacts he would exploit. And Andrew was one of the sort of bits of low hanging fruit.

But there were there were others and, you know, everything was transactional. It was transactional between Andrew and Epstein. Epstein provided a clearly bankrolling Fergie, providing. girls and again providing useful contacts for him. Places to stay. Do we know from the from the first tranche of Epstein emails. and Epstein files, what did Epstein actually think of Andrew? I know that Andrew thought that Epstein was a friend, but what insight.

do you have into what Jeffrey Epstein actually thought of this British prince? We have never seen anything where he explicitly talked about Andrew. in those terms. But I. certainly. I quote in the first book he was shocked by Andrew's behavior. He called him, he said, I'm kinky, but but Andrew's even kinky than me. So I think he kind of felt he had met as much on that score. I think, you know, like so many people he dealt with, Epstein. just saw Andrew as a useful vehicle that he could play.

And and the very easy one. And someone who was useful to him, he, he clearly, you know, used him as an insurance policy and very deliberately. was photographed with him in Central Park in December 2010, very clear. The paparazzi were outside. And this was all about establishing his credentials and his kind of safety net. So I don't think there was any real affection there or friendship. They were using each other. Glenn Maxwell, as we know, has been moved by now.

The acting attorney general in the states, from a Florida. jail to a prison camp in Texas. There's some assumptions that she may get a pardon. Her family largely live in London, and her brother, particularly Ian Maxwell, has been trying to get her a pardon or get her out, and I think believes that that will eventually come to pass.

What are you hearing about the possibility of a Guillén Maxwell? Pardon? Yes, I think that's very likely. You know, she's done her bit. She's kept Trump out of any sort of disclosures. She's done her bit and she's calling in the favor. And there's a big campaign by the Maxwell family, I mean, both to discredit the victims, including Virginia Giuffre. They paid a man called J. Beacher 80,000 pounds to to to write things. There are a whole series of people involved in this campaign. Victoria Harvey perhaps been the best known.

So absolutely. And that is something that the victims are appalled by, that given she quite. rightly was, was was given the 20 year sentence that she will be allowed out. And to be honest. There's the sense that maybe she has already gone. I mean, we we we are told that she's in this no security prison, but there's no reason why. one day she couldn't move for her own personal safety to another prison. We don't know where that is.

And that other person to prison turns out to be a Caribbean island. So, you know, Trump will clearly have a lot of pushback when he gives a pardon. But I think that's pretty certain. And I know this is a campaign to see. if Glenn can be charged with other offenses in Britain. and actually get around this American legal American legal system. What a story, Andrew. What a story. So do you have a publication date yet for your new book, untitled?

No, I mean, the books take about four years to research, as you could imagine. So it's, you know, so many years off. But but certainly a lot of people. are coming forward with a lot of interesting information. And, you know, let's hope within four years. we will know what Andrew's fate is, whether he has escaped to Abu Dhabi, he's still sitting in Sandringham doing the washing up. or he's actually still at his brother's pleasure. But in Wandsworth, HMP being Her Majesty's.

or His Majesty's Prison, I should say Andrew. And I wonder if the next time we, we talked to you, the wall of books. behind you on your desk will have got even taller. It is so wonderful seeing an English author's writing desk. I mean, it's just a joyful thing. Now, you mentioned at the beginning. that your friend John Greig had taken a blow to the nose. What is that about? Was he defending Your Honor? Well, I sort of modeled myself on on John Greig, who was Baron Altrincham,

and he described himself as an honest friend of the monarchy. He was a monarchist, but he felt that they needed to reform in order to survive. And he was very critical of the Queen. when she first came to to the throne, and he was reviled, and people kind of tried to kick him out of their club to his clubs. I mean, some of the same stuff that I've been getting. But he a man, punched him in the nose. in the street, and I'm waiting for a reprise of that.

See if I come with a bloody nose next time, you know that they found me. Oh my goodness. Well it's amazing, Andrew, you've unearthed all sorts of scandal. in the royal family, which they or certainly had been successfully buried. Good luck with the paperback. edition of the book and we will look forward to talking to you again, I hope at the end of the summer. And good luck. with attending all the very English events you're about to go into the season. It's Wimbledon, it's Henley, it's Ascot, it's enormous fun.

But I do hope you don't get socially extradited to. to the far corner of Wimbledon or Ascot. Right. Thank you. Well, I'll report back. Tell you how I got on. Good. All right. Andrew, thank you very much for joining us. No. Thank you. I love talking to Andrew Loney. He's someone I've known for 40 years. I've watched him grow as a historian, and his reporting.

and his investigations have been nothing short of astonishing. Anyway, we will be hearing more from him over the summer. I hope he gets to go to some posh English summer events. This season, as it's called, is really quite fun. A lot of Pimms to be drunk, a sort of weird fruity drink with large. chunks of strawberry and cucumber if you can believe it. And of course, endless strawberries and cream he deserves. A huge bowl of them. Will be back with Inside Trump's head tomorrow.

Please leave us your favorite parts of the conversation as a comment on YouTube. And big thanks to our long suffering production team. I don't think you could see the technical difficulties. we were wrestling with interviewing Andrew. I think it was probably the intelligence services listening in on our call. Anyway, I sometimes worry for Andrew if his apartment is stuffed. full of, as he says, 200,000 words of new revelations.

about Prince Andrew or the Andrew formerly known as Prince. But let's hope it makes it to the publishers. Anyway, back, as I said, with Michael Wolff tomorrow for Inside Trump's Head. and a big thanks to our production team Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passa, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.