How I Know Trump's at His Most Dangerous: Wolff | Inside Trump's Head

He recognizes that his back is to the wall, that he's in a corner. that he can't get out of. When he's in this mood, he is at his most dangerous and most audacious. So the I don't care, I'm above it all guy is really down in the mud. thinking of some slur or libel to save himself. or some new enemy, to elevate an attack and some emergency to declare. I mean, he is. I mean, this is this could be a very messy moment.

or an ugly Trump moment at this point, that he's going to blame us. for demanding that he cared. Joanna. So let me just say, top of the hour here, that I was out last night at dinner with the whole family and. and somebody came came a member of the public came,

sat at the table to say how much he liked the podcast. Well, actually, he didn't say how much he liked the podcast. He said he said when he wakes up in the middle of the night, he puts us on and it puts him back to sleep. But I think that was a compliment. No, I don't think that was a compliment. I think it was someone being very passive aggressive. Was this person British? They might have been British because that is the sort of thing that people say, no, no, no. It was said in a, in a with, with great. good cheer that we were part of his life.

Well that's nice, that's very nice to know. Well, and I realize we don't solicit enough feedback. from people from our from our viewers and listeners. And we're always up for feedback. Not only do we want you to join the Beast. membership, subscribe, please hit the subscription button. We are independent media and we really appreciate your support, but. we also really appreciate your comments and your thoughts and suggestions.

And actually, we had an enormous response to the question. of whether or not Donald Trump is going to survive his presidency. Most people, I think, felt they weren't going to survive his presidency. So there was a lot of never mind him, but it was very good to. and certainly for me to get back into the comments and, and realize. this is a real community of people who, like us, wake. up in the morning, have our cappuccino stare out of the window.

It's a beautiful day and can't quite believe. that at the same time, America seems to be being dismantled. Well, I want to go. You know, I've been reading and this is sort of coincidental, but maybe it wasn't coincidental that I've that I've just. I've just finished reading the Simon Z. Montefiore biography of Stalin, and I was kind of blown. away by the, by the, by the,

the clear comparisons between Trump. and the circle of, of fools and dummies around him. and the circle around Stalin, Berea, Molotov, Khrushchev, Malenkov. You know, these these guys who were who, who spent all of their time just trying to curry favor with Stalin. so that he didn't kill them, and then hopefully.

that they could replace him, which which then goes into, you know. Have you seen the Amando Inukai? Yeah. Of course, of course. Although annoyingly, I can't remember it. And people keep saying to me, you must watch it again. because it's suddenly so much more vital, especially when we have it actually is, I mean, very much, you know, we do this thing, Trump and Hitler, I mean, which is.

seems basic and seems cliched and but that's not it. It is literally Trump and Stalin. Well, it's Trump and Stalin and Trump and Hitler, I think, because there are. definitely comparisons about the Big Lie and some of the things in mind. Kampf. Right. But side note, Simon Sebag Montefiore, who's. now one of the UK's top preeminent historians, and the Stalin book, which a truthful I haven't read, although I'm now inspired to. we should start an Inside Trump's head.

book club where we where we get where in fact, we should solicit. Do people like the idea of this? Should we be doing a book club where we suggest books that are relevant? I haven't read CBGB's book, but in a happy note, he was my very first intern when I was at the Spectator magazine, and I made him a blinds. I had this very erudite young history. student, and the only task I had for him in his first week.

was to to put up some blinds, which he did in a very haphazard way. And they didn't they didn't keep out the light. Anyway, I like the idea of at least watching. The Last Days of Stalin, which I must do again, because I think. the first time I watched it, I didn't appreciate the significant. significance of it. And then, of course, you see the sycophants sitting around Trump. in the cabinet meetings, which of course he films and you're just shocked by it.

And I wonder if now for women have left, if it's changed the vibe in the room, because for the longest time. no one was fired. They all sat there wondering who the first person was. But now four people have gone, although in theory Tulsi resigned, but the other three were fired. The women? Yeah, I don't think. I don't think we have to bow to that pretense. Okay. That Tulsi was also fired then, according to Michael. But. But it's very different sitting in a room when people have started to be fired.

Who do we think is. to have we made book yet on on the first man to go. Well cash Patel seems vulnerable. Yeah, it just has to be cash. Although, you know, I mean, he needs someone to run the FBI. Who is his total lackey. I'm sure there are lots of people he could find to do that. What about Howard?

Howard has kept a low profile. That is not true. It is really, really not that. Not that easy to find. Total, complete, abject lackeys. People you know, most people. have at least a smidgen of pride. Cash Patel excluded from that, of course. Well, who else would there be? What about Howard Lutton, who at the beginning was was everywhere. but seems to have taken a lower profile. They all should be fired.

I mean, RFK obviously should be fired. Totally. He should be fine. What was that weird snake behavior? That was insane. Oh yeah. That's what was that? And then he puts it out. I mean, it's not like because I was like, who took this video? And then I realized, oh, he posted it himself. Man with snake bear dressed in wrestling, I mean, absurd. Yeah. Well, that that is I mean, that is that always that thing that has that, that, that RFK, you know, with the Falcons, you know, Mr.

Outdoorsman. But I don't exactly understand where that fits into it. Does does that align with the anti-vax thing. Maybe maybe it does. I. it seems so odd. You know, one of the things that the Kennedys, all the Kennedys, when they were, when they were growing up and when they had their all their various. problems were always sent away to someone in the wilderness. Right? I mean, that was the thing they didn't, you know, get rid of it.

You know, this this person cannot be seen in public. Send to the wilderness. Well, he got sent to the wilderness after his father's death, right? He got sent to the wilderness after his father. Yeah. And then and then at several points, you know, because of the addiction, this or that, he was always being sent off into the wilderness for good reason. Well, and maybe he'll be sent off into the political wilderness, or at least to build his own support base as he runs for 2028.

Yeah, I don't think that's going to be the wilderness. I think I think we're going to have to deal with this guy for. for some time to come. Well, he's so obviously enjoying himself, isn't he? And we haven't checked in with his podcast yet. The Daily Beast is brought to you. by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Here's something that should be on your radar as America approaches its 250th. anniversary, there's a growing effort to redefine what this country stands for,

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Now, because the future of American freedom is still being written, text beast to 511 511 today. Text fees may apply. I feel like we should get to the clanger. that Trump dropped in the cabinet meeting. And that was that. He doesn't care about the midterms. I don't care about the midterms. I think we actually have the clip, but they're going to outwit me.

You know, we'll outweighed him. He's got the midterms. I don't care about the midterms. Look what happened last night. That was the prelude to the midterms, you know. And let's remember that. this is on the heels of saying he didn't care about the economy. So we're in. the I don't care phase of his presidency. We're in the we really are in the King Lear phase running around the heath. He's forgotten that he is, in fact, beholden to voters.

Well, let's let's I mean, I think this has actually a very specific meaning. It's it's I don't care. It has to do with his anger and contempt when he's held to account. You know, when the rules of gravity. Apply to him, you know, when actions have consequences that he can't fix. So really, I don't care is saying basically fuck you. Well, it's also said I mean, it reminded me of a sort of,

you know, an actor who discovers that they're. the only person in the cast who hasn't been nominated for an Oscar. And they're like, well, I don't want an Oscar anyway. The stupid or a child who's not been invited to a party. He has to care about the midterms and all the people around him care about. it, I think. I think when that say basically he is saying that it does, he desperately cares and that he recognizes that his back. is to the wall, that he's in a corner that he can't get out of.

And and also, we should note that. in that when he's in this mood, he is at his most dangerous and most audacious. So the I don't care, I'm above it all guy is really down in the mud. thinking of some slur or libel to save himself. or some new enemy, to elevate and attack some preposterous lie. to propound and spread and some emergency to declare.

I mean, he is I mean, this is this could be a very messy moment. or an ugly Trump moment at this point, that he's going to blame us for demanding that he care. And do you think that that that means he's going to mess with the elections again? I mean, he seemed very excited. You heard him clearly. He wants the mess with the elections. The question is to what extent, to what extent that's possible.

And to some extent it is possible. We we certainly know, but it also depends upon how far down he is. In other words, at some level, it doesn't matter. He can't do anything. He's just going to be overwhelmed, which I think I mean, certainly. if if we went to the polls today, he would be overwhelmed. Well, he was referring to Ken Paxton there when we when we recorded. Tuesday's inside Trump had it was the day of the election in Texas.

And we didn't know. We assumed Paxton would probably win, but he won significantly. among the primary voters, the Republican primary voters. in Texas and John Cornyn, you know, hitherto, are sort of reasonably decent, although very right wing senator cast into the cast, into the wilderness. So and there are a couple of questions about, I mean, the most interesting question to me there, in the most telling question.

about what's inside Trump's head is why would he do this? Why would because the Paxton thing means that. the seat, the Texas Senate seat, is imperiled in a. in a way that it would not have been if John Cornyn had been the nominee. Right. Or they certainly would have been on significantly safer grounds. So instead, they have a. they have a candidate who's been indicted, who's been impeached, who's in the middle of an ugly divorce, whose wife is accusing him of,

whose wife is also a Texas politician, is accusing him of of, of, I think, biblical transgressions. Exactly, exactly. In. So there is nothing to recommend this this. Well, except that he's oddly like Trump. I mean, the only thing to recommend, obviously, why Trump has backed him is because he's obviously like Trump.

He's been impeached. He's been accused of all sorts of corruption. He's, you know, about to get divorced. So they have a lot in common. But well, he's also also throughout in this goes back to the first term. He has been incredibly reliable to them. They always said within the white House if they needed something done. and Paxton was the attorney general then, and if they and they were always. looking for attorney generals to file lawsuits,

and then they would always go to Paxton and play the Paxton. card, while at the same time, everyone in the Trump circle acknowledged. that Paxton was really a bad guy. Well, and the John Cornyn Republicans in Texas spent a fortune. trying to keep him out of the race, ran all sorts of ads. I mean, this is a man who had his own party taking out ads. against him, saying how bad he was, and he still managed to win.

And he, as you say, it puts Texas in play. So why is Trump making the Senate vulnerable like this? Exactly. So why why is he. And I think you can look at this in in two ways. This is this is this is more Trump I don't care more Trump. Fuck you more Trump. Hubris which which it which it all is of course. But at the same time it is Trump thinking I know better.

And I see this more clearly. than all conventional politicians. I see that Ken Paxton, who is you? Reprehensible in every way. Actually, that is a that is a calling card. John Cronin is what's his name. Cronin. Yeah. John Cornyn remember his name.

He's so he's so bland. He's like John Light. So you go for I mean this is you know, during the during the. the 2024 campaign, you know, again and again the, the people around. Trump would say, God, you know, he's got to come back to the economy. He's got a he's got a, you know, go to the basic issues. He's got to stop going after Kamala and making this personal.

And he never did that. And he kept and he kept saying, that's wrong. You always have to make it personal. Well, do you remember when he said that when a Kamala become black, I mean, it seemed unfathomable. There isn't a political advisor in the world. who would recommend doing that. And yet all it did was create attention and drama and excitement around him. And and oddly, it didn't work for Kamala. No.

So go and just go back to where we always come. back to the reality show programing on your reality show. You certainly don't want John Cornyn. You want Paxton, you certainly want Paxton. This is. you know, well, he's the P.T. Barnum of Texas, right. And you know, well, the, you know, the Jersey housewives of of Texas or whatever. I mean, he is a great reality show.

Participant. It's just remarkable. It's just remarkable. So and John Cornyn, instead of. I mean, there's a fascinating picture. of him standing there conceding with his wife. And you can see the wife is just devastated on his behalf. and bewildered by how this has happened. And then John Cornyn says that he's always voted.

for Republicans and he will vote for Paxton. And you're like, wrong move, John Cornyn, wrong move. Well, he should have gone off and joined Marjorie. Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie, who were in Costa Rica on holiday. But it is the kind of thing, I mean, in, in, in politics, if if you go against your party. in an overt way like that, you're pretty much out of business. Well, he's out of business anyway, John. Well, I don't know if he's out of business.

I mean, if you're. I mean, these politicians think, you know, this is, you know, win lose. Who who knows what's going to happen if Paxton loses, which is very possible. Then. then then there's. other Republican careers that are going to try to take down, you know, I mean, Texas, yes, Texas could become a, you know, a blue state or. or a very bluish purple state, but it probably won't actually.

So the the problem for if. if Paxton loses it will be because of Paxton. Right. So therefore, you know never say never. Well and he's up against an interesting Democrat in James Talarico. who's a seminarian and. a sort of calm youngish man. He's 40 ish. We interviewed him on the Daily Beast podcast.

He seemed, you know, highly articulate, understands the weight on his shoulders. to see if he can pull off Texas, formerly a state. senator in Texas, and he beat Jasmine Crockett to the Senate seat. So it will be a meeting of two incredibly. different politicians, James Talarico versus Ken Paxton. And it's unclear who will win. I think it's unclear. And also it's going to suck up an enormous amount of money. I think 100 million was.

was put into the race this time around between Paxton and Cornyn. So it will be a huge resource suck. Although Trump has never failed to raise money, and I think James Talarico raised just under $1 million. in the first two hours after Paxton was found victorious. Yeah. And just to set the context, you know, in the last how many elections. now has there always been this discussion of Texas turning.

purple or, or or blue in the Senate, going to a Democrat? And it never happens. Just let's just note that, yep, Texans like crazy people. But that's also and I think the to be noted. is the amount by which Paxton one. So that does say something about about about certainly about Texas. But it also says something about about the Trump vote in the United States.

Right. And still remains so strongly with him. Well, the passion of the Republican primary voter, right, doesn't necessarily say more about Texas at this point. Well, we don't know what it says about Texas. We just know we're going to we're going to. Right. We're going to find out. So the other thing that happened yesterday, Aegean Carol is back in the news.

Stunning actually. I mean let's and she is back in the news not on her own volition. She's back on the news because the Justice Department. has opened an investigation into her, a criminal investigation into Aegean. Carol. And you will remember Aegean Carol accused Donald. Trump of of of attacking her, sexually. attacking her in a dressing room.

at Bergdorf Goodman in New York. on 57th Street, seventh Street and. and Fifth Avenue, maybe 56th Street, and. just adjacent to Trump Tower, in fact. And she she then she had has. had had two lawsuits against Donald Trump. The first was a a lawsuit for.

I have to actually remember which which are the. which are the first. The first the first lawsuit was the was. was the the sexual assault lawsuit. Right. And that was and she got $5 million. that that award. The jury awarded her $5 million. And the second lawsuit was the libel lawsuit.

because Trump said said he didn't. And then he said. all kinds of terrible things about her and then continued to libel her. And in that lawsuit, I believe the award was. $87 million, I think $83 million. Yes. And and also, it's a perfect example of when he when when he doubled down. So he was found guilty of sexual abuse. of of abusing her in the changing room in Bergdorf Goodman, having run into her in the revolving door.

And you think of the kind of moments. in your life that hinge on, an inopportune meeting with someone. So he was coming out. She was going into Bergdorf Goodman. He goes, oh, you're the advice lady, because she had a column called. Ascii Gene in L magazine. She had been an advice columnist for for a long time in New York, and she'd had an advice show, in fact, on television.

And they he spins round, they start talking, they go up to the lingerie floor, and then he basically pushes her into the changing room. And I can't help thinking this is going to be incredibly good publicity. for her for the documentary, which has just come out. and which is spectacularly good, I recommend everybody go and see it. It's had difficulties getting a distributor,

but it's a really excellent documentary in which she she. she's such an eccentric, interesting character. And one of the most tragic things about this is that she's really. never had a relationship or sex again, she says. Since this attack in the changing room by Donald Trump. So but let's understand what's that issue here? What's at stake, really? So we've had two juries, civil juries that have decided in her favor.

Trump, who runs. effectively runs the United States Justice Department. Not effectively. I mean, he has he has taken the United States Justice Department, which has always had some independence within the executive branch, made it his own, and now ordered it to go after. this woman who has won these two judgments against him.

So she has used the the justice system, the court system. as it is, as it as it's supposed to be used. She has been won two victories there. Trump who has lost two cases there. Those two cases has has now. is now in effect superseding that. and raising the ante by saying this woman who has pursued him.

ought to be prosecuted on a criminal basis. for pursuing him in two cases, which she has won. So the other thing I'm curious about here is that Todd Blanche, who, of course, was Trump's personal lawyer in the Aegean, Carol case, which I know. you sat through, has recused himself from this. So I'm wondering if that is the move. A bit like when Jeff Sessions recused himself as attorney general over Russia,

whether or not this is the move that loses Todd. Blanche, the actual A.G. job, I yeah, I could I suppose it could be. I mean, it sounds it sounds to me, but I mean, the other thing it does, I mean, I mean, I mean, Todd Blanche has been so abject, so willing to do anything that is necessary. to gain Trump's trust and, and, and to gain the promotion.

that he wants into the, the the permanent position of, of attorney. general that it seems hard to believe that at this point. he would he would have discovered some spine. So I rather think that they've, that they've that they've gained this out. And as we talked about last time, you know, the person at the center. of this, at the center of all of Trump's. legal moves is this guy Boris Epstein.

And Boris Epstein is also Todd, Blanche's. kind of rabbi, basically. within the within the the Trump structure. So and and Boris was very key. in the in in both of the Aegean cases. So I my my sense would be that they've that they've figured this out, that moving Todd Blanche over to the side is just a kind of a fig leaf thing.

And they are again. just going to use their the, the willingness of the Justice Department, the fact that the Justice Department is wholly. at the act will act at the behest of Donald Trump. as a way to curry favor with Donald Trump. Well, and I think I think the argument that they're making is that Aegean.

is guilty of perjury because in 2022, she said that she hadn't received any outside. funding for her case, and she's certainly not seen any money yet. I mean, in the both the 5 million judgment and the 83. million judgment found against Trump, and I believe the money is in escrow. She has yet to see a single cent of that. But it then transpired that Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn,

had in fact been funding her defense. She has the extremely able Robbie Kaplan as her lawyer, but I think that's the DOJ's point of contention. Yeah, well, did she say that? Doesn't seem like that would be relevant. Did she say that under oath? Well, I. think it was in her testimony, I think when she was asked. if someone funded her, my understanding is. it's in it was in her testimony.

So that's what they're going after her for. But again, I really recommend the documentary. It's excellent. And it puts all this in a much bigger context of Egan's life. And it's it's really fascinating. And it's had terrible difficulties getting distributors. But it's finally out in theaters and strongly recommended. and see this in the broader context that he will go after anyone.

If you displease Donald Trump, his Justice Department, there is a very good chance, depending upon how much you displease him, that he will come after you and he has the resources, obviously, and the power. to do that. It's got an entire department to make to make your life miserable. And there's a couple of things here. He is not going to win a case against Aegean Carol. That's not going to happen, but he is going to make her life.

miserable as he has in the past, in the past. Well, and I can't I can't believe that Melania is enjoying this. I mean, she must be furious over this. entire Aegean Carol story and, well, who knows? Who knows? She's unknowable as you as you make the point. So, Michael, can we go back to that moment. in the cabinet meeting where he's talking about,

I don't care about the midterms, because in the run up to that, he was talking about the Iranians and how their strategy is. they think they can wait him out because it took two years. to do the Iran deal with President Obama. And of course, Trump is trying to resolve this as quickly as he can, almost. giving them an lo, I, like you do in a with a property with a property contract.

Meanwhile, the Strait of Hormuz, which was open. and traffic, you know, ships were flowing in and out. without any impediment. before this war, 1500 tankers are now sitting, idling in the Strait of Hormuz, and it's still not resolved. And every time he tells us it's resolved, it's not resolved. It's not resolved. I mean, there's a continuing crisis here, which he seems to be ignoring. You know, I think he's trying to to ignore this.

I think he's at the point. And that's I think that's the challenge. Now, how do you create a situation in which. you can sort of say, pay no attention to this? But he hasn't found that yet. I mean, in very real ways. He hasn't found that. And, and and remember, this is not just perception. This is this is the price at the pump. So I think that he's that he's stuck I think this is,

this is the one of the things this is festering inside his his head. He is screwed. And and he hasn't found a way not only to get out of this, but he hasn't. found a way to mask this, and he hasn't found a way to distract from this. He thought he had a way the other day when they were going to do a deal. And the Iranians have screwed him on this. I mean, they have done what they have, what they what they always do,

and they seem to enjoy doing is putting something on the table, giving the impression that they're close to a settlement. And then they upped the ante. And so, so. Trump is being trolled by the Iranians. and he's being in he's being sucked into. the thing that he is. has had one of the leading things that he represented himself against,

which is which is forever wars in the Middle East. Right. He then added to his conditions that he expects. all the. Arab countries, which aren't yet part of the Abraham Accords, to sign up. And there was a little nib in the times which actually one of our viewers. sent us saying the leaders, especially those of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Pakistan, who don't have formal diplomatic.

relations with Israel, were surprised by Trump's request. There was silence on the line, and Trump joked. and asked if they were still there. Well, there's a couple of interesting things about this. Don't they use zoom? Well apparently not. Maybe you can't secure a line with zoom. Maybe they still have old fashioned telephone lines. Well, yeah. But nevertheless, they, they I'm sure there's, there's video conferencing.

of all kinds that they have in place and secure. But I but anyway leave leave that to the side. The, the other thing about this kind of thing and this is. this is very emblematic of Trump conversations. of saying stuff that is just like, where did that come from? Out of what context does that come? How does how has the plot so dramatically changed. at this moment in time, leaving people with their mouths open?

So, Michael, when you're talking to people who are on the phone chain with Trump. and as we know, he's he's lying there at night and in the early morning. and in the middle of the night calling people. What are they saying that he's saying right now? Is he saying this war thing? It's got to end. It was a mistake. Or is he. How is he expressing himself to them? You know, it is like this problem is solved,

everybody is over, is blowing this way out of proportion. This is under control. And then he and then he actually goes back and then. and then says, and if it's not, we're going to obliterate them. So it's always back to that thing we began with the obliteration. We are obliterating them. Well, we didn't obliterate them very clearly. But he'll return to that. We can obliterate them at any time. It is as though he is in control.

So does he believe he is in control? That's the interesting thing. And meanwhile, Iran is using the Strait of Hormuz like. David used his catapult against the Goliath of the US, who once again has assumed. that because we have an enormous military. that will be the dominant factor and in fact, it's not. And and we're all stuck by this.

I mean, I think everybody but perhaps Donald Trump understands. that at this point that this is that the military has I mean, they've they've pretty much, you know, what is it, 13,000 targets. They have done their best to obliterate and. and they haven't. So therefore what do you do next? And actually, that's the question. Not Donald Trump has no idea what you do next. Right. So you go after an 82 year old woman, Eugene Carroll,

and you support Ken Paxton, and you say you don't care about the midterms because you're somehow bigger. than the midterms. But in fact, he's not bigger than the midterms. Well, of course, and that's I mean, I think I think. by saying that he recognizes that, but I don't care. about the midterms. Well, that's what it means. I care about the midterms and, and and it's closing in on me.

And I have to find a solution so that that becomes this interesting thing. What does he do? And. let's look at. that in the context that he could do anything because he is. volatile, unpredictable, paranoid, angry and constrained by no one. He's not constrained by Congress. He's not constrained by any of the people sitting around. clapping him at the cabinet table. Which brings us back to Stalin, which brings us back to your idea.

of the book club. Should we include Jill Biden's book, which comes out at the beginning of June, in which she says that during the catastrophic debate. which kicked off all this between. Joe Biden and Donald Trump, she thought Joe Biden was having a stroke. His performance was so bad she'd never seen him like that. She thought her husband was having a stroke.

Which begs the question, why didn't you run on to the stage and call for medics? Yeah, but and but for the the. your initial question, should we include Jill Biden's book? No, she's not in our book club. How did I know you were going to say that? You know what the book is going to be? It's going to be one of those those,

you know, post, post a political books of which is which. I never understand why actually people would read these. Why? Why does anyone read Kamala Harris book? I mean, these are books that are not written, not written by them. They're just a kind of, I mean, the worst kind of book. And yet people buy them on perplexed, but quite interesting to to try and understand.

Jill Biden's point of view, because apparently there's lots in the book. and I haven't read it yet, and I am actually sort of eager. to read a couple of chapters in it, which is that. she was one of his biggest supporters to encourage him to keep running. It was her and Hunter, as we read at the time, who were encouraging them. to keep going instead of hold an open, an open convention. and have people step forward to to replace him. Well, yeah. And that's what she's saying. By the by the way, in this, he seemed to have be having a stroke.

In other words, she's identifying the debate as in an coldly. anomalous moment that otherwise he sent in and on top of things and. and in charge and this just moment, inexplicable. moment of caught in the headlights, stage fright. or stroke or whatever is separate. from what she maintains is the real Joe Biden.

Right? It was just a blip on the on the landscape. All right. Well, Doctor Jill, where it feels like we're not going to be inaugurating. our book club with your book, but. I am curious to read that that chapter, I don't know if you're going. to make a book, write a book about your relationship with Epstein. I noticed that we're on episode ten or chapter. ten or installment.

ten of your Substack series about Jeffrey Epstein, which brings us. to a Bill gates moment, which I thought you might like to tell people about. I have to say, I found this, this, this almost Dickensian. dropping of chapters once a week. Pretty riveting, actually. I do find your whole relationship with Epstein in. No, it's kind of interesting, interesting way to write this. And maybe it will at the end be a be a book.

It is certainly being written in that, in that sequential form. that, that I suppose at the end, if I get to the end, will. will be. a book length manuscript, whether or not it will be a book. But there was a moment. So, you know, and I'm just trying to describe at this, in this, this installment what it is like to go to Epstein's house. And I would get these invitations and this is circa,

you know, he's been out of jail for for a few years. So this is in the 2011, 2012, 2013 area. And I would get these invitations a sort of an invitation. They would come every, you know, 4 or 5 weeks. You'd get this kind of chirpy email from his assistant, you know, can you, can you have lunch with Jeffrey on such. and such a day, or can you have tea with Jeffrey?

And you would never know why, why, why am I being invited? What's the purpose of this? You know, in I've been around Manhattan for a long time. You get an invitation from someone who you don't necessarily know. that well, and there's a purpose. There's an agenda. People are busy. But. Well, you you were an influential media columnist, first at New York magazine and then at Vanity Fair, right?

Well, well, possibly. But even then you would say, can you come? Let's talk about such and such. Somebody wants to pitch you on something, one of those things. But you would show up at Epstein's house and you wouldn't know. why you got the invitation, and it would be entirely unclear what is the agenda. Never. Arie and you would meet and then you would show up. with other people there, other people of some consequence, you know, and I talk about in this installment about showing up.

and I'm having lunch with Bill Richardson, then the governor. of New Mexico, and, you know, a very senior Democratic political figure. Why? And he's looking at me like, why am I having lunch with this guy? And what what's the the thing? And you're trying to put the pieces together and it's never clear. And then in another occasion I showed up. So I get to the house on 71st Street in these big doors open.

There's the house, man. Jojo has to struggle to get this door open. And and I come in, and then I see. Epstein, and you go up the entrance. Then you go up a couple of stairs, and he's standing at the top of the stairs. with this other guy, a very familiar looking face, but I can't place it because there's no context here. And I'm immediately thinking, I went to high school with him,

I must have. I really think that's, But then Epstein says says, oh, Bill, you know, Michael. And then I get it. I think, oh my God, that's Bill gates. And then in the context of. of Epstein's house, Bill gates says, oh, of course I know Michael. No, he doesn't know me from Adam. Well, you may have known your writing I.

but and then he's very familiar, you know, he's he's on his way out and he's. and he sort of touches my shoulder, you know, like we're old friends. And that's always the was the feeling inside. of Epstein's house that was very club like. You know, if you're here, we must know. You know then then we're we're the same. We're equal. We're we're we. we acknowledge some level of being familiar. with each other and but anyway, I then went.

Bill gates left. I go back and sit down to to talk with Epstein. or have a have a chat or, you know, they offer you things to eat all the time. And then he spins out this kind of wild tale. Although I'm, I'm as I spins it out, I'm thinking, well, maybe this is real about a plan with the Gates. Foundation to,

to repay. There's all that. He says. There's trillions of dollars in unbanked money in the world. Trillions. Far more money than the US in the US yearly budget. And so the plan is to repatriate this money. in a forgiveness program, which would essentially you, whatever criminal you are, get to bank 10% of your money if you turn over 90% of it.

I mean, and so we're talking drug money and and arms money. and God knows what we're talking. So illegal. Illegal gained money. Yes. So this money then would, would form. the largest philanthropic fund ever. imagined, a philanthropic fund larger than. Well, then then the then the budget of the United States by a factor of.

by, by several factors. So an amount of money that would. transform the human experience. So this is this is what you're talking, this is what you're suddenly listening to. And then you think, is this real? Is it sounds like, is this just entertainment? But anyway, that's it. And then you, you know, your time is up and somebody else comes or, and either.

and the subject changes or you leave and you think, and you exit 71st Street. and you found yourself saying, what was that about? When when you look back on it, knowing what you know now? I mean, Bill gates has talked a lot about how he regrets his friendship. with Jeffrey Epstein, perhaps because it's been exposed, and. it appears to have led to the breakdown. of his marriage, or at least his ex-wife has talked about her regrets.

With his friendship of Jeffrey Epstein and her recommendation, he stopped. seeing Epstein and his his decision not to do that. Do you have regrets about your friendship with him? First thing I'm not I'm not sure that I was friends with him. I was there to. because I thought this was an extraordinary story. And I still think it's an extraordinary story. And obviously it is an extraordinary story because it's. one of the central stories of of our time.

I just recognize this well before most other people. and had this front row seat at what was, what was a, a, you know, a, a character that. that was not only hard to explain, but a character that was that you could sense was. had had a much greater impact than was.

then, was then, might be visible at that time. But when you say you knew it was a story, you didn't mean that you knew. he had an industrial level of, or an industrial level network of schoolgirls coming in. and out of the house. No, and I'm not even sure that that was I've always thought that was. I mean, I mean, obviously crimes were committed. and that has had a serious impact on, on many people.

But I never felt that was the main story. That was the most impactful story on. on, on, on. on his relationship to power and to powerful people. and to what he was, the way he was threading him, the way he was threading the needle of. of modern power, modern connections, how we live at a at a certain.

level of influence and. and achievement. in New York, certainly in America itself. Well, it's a very interesting series you and I will never agree. on, on the Epstein story, I think and I do believe. in a lot of the victim's testimony about it. And I, I'm fascinated and sort of horrified. that it could go on like that on,

on East 71st Street and also just the sort of, you know, the Prince Andrew of it. all, the Fergie of it all, the Bill gates of it all. But I recommend your, your series on Substack. It's a fascinating view into, as you say, New York Power and you had a front row seat to it. Finally, Michael Garth read as back he's resurfaced. Garth read. You took a break. We've got. we've got a Limerick from him, which I'm going to read at Walter Reed.

While he blustered and bled the succession ists measured his head. With Melania's rich and judge Magas fit, they crowned Usher's web show instead. And then we've got another one from t. AK t that's his or her. Shouldn't be sexist. address. There once was a grifter called Trump who sat sound asleep on his rump.

He nodded and snoozed through all the meetings. Sones boos and slipped off his perch. Splat! Kerplunk! I'm not sure how you respond to a Limerick. I think you have to, I think. Come on. Splat! Plunk is pretty good. You don't. It's not a joke. Maybe sort of laugh. You kind of smile, chuckle. You chuckle, you chuckle. Consider consider me chuckle. All right. You don't give for you smile.

Riley, I think is the appropriate response. Well, I think you could laugh about and we could come back to the the. The Death of Stalin, which is a which is hilarious. I mean, and that's the film by Armando Iannucci, who just as a background is the. is the man who created Veep and my favorite film. or certainly in my top five films in the loop about about.

it's really about British and American relationships. And there's an absolutely marvelous scene where a junior aid in America. turns to the British foreign secretary and says they want the table. in a horseshoe loop, and people want still and sparkling water. And the poor British Foreign Secretary scuttles after. do exactly what the junior aide has asked him to do. It's a wonderful film. If people haven't seen In the loop, highly recommend it.

It's I keep it on my iPad when I'm flying. It always makes me laugh. Brilliant depictions by. Peter Capaldi. All right, Michael, I will see you on Saturday. referring people to your Epstein series once more. Or maybe we should be giving people homework to do, books to read, movies to watch, sub stacks to read. Maybe we have only have one book so far.

Okay, the star nav. Let's let's. It's the Simon. See Montefiore. And I should know the title of this. The biography of Stalin. Yeah, it's just Stalin, isn't it? A biography? I mean, hugely acclaimed. Lots of prizes. And I will endeavor to read it. We can recommend the film The Death of Stalin. And I can recommend the Aegean Carol film, which is really good and out in movies this this week.

And your Substack series. Fantastic. Quite a lot. Maybe we have a curriculum for Inside Trump's head. Maybe it becomes an online course. Maybe it's like Trump University. Maybe we do like Barry Weiss is apparently doing. at the Free Press excursions, educational excursions. Maybe we maybe we do that. Okay, we're going to ask people for ideas, actual excursions. We go on a trip with Barry Weiss.

Well, that would be riveting. And we should certainly apply to do that. An excursion with Barry. Weiss round the offices of 60 minutes. Get in undeniable a summer treat. Which prompts. the the the issue of the 60 men of her. firing the 60 minutes Sharon Alfonso or Spondon.

who who took issue with her confronted her. about her censorship of a. of a piece of reporting. that the Trump administration did not want aired. Right. And Barry Weiss said that it wasn't complete, that. she wanted spokespeople from. I think it actually wanted Stephen Miller from the Trump administration.

They didn't come through her efforts to book them, didn't come through. And it aired in Canada anyway. And then it eventually aired here with, with with Trump people speaking. Yeah. They were bolted on at the end. Right? Yes. Right. Yes. But but which brings up Stephen Miller. and the new campaign against green cards. But let's do that for let's save that for Saturday. But it's a major topic.

The team. Ryan Rachel we. have a new member of the team John. Heather Neil. How can we forget Neil. Thank you as always. So the good news is we have so many beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.