How Epstein's Sick Sleaze is Destroying the Royals | The Daily Beast Podcast

One of the extraordinary emails that was uncovered literally shows. this extraordinary email chain of angry saying to his secretary, Amanda Thirsk, can you get me the reports about, you know, what's going on in this country? She finally gets them, sends them to Andrew. You just send someone to Epstein. I mean, it is absolutely extraordinary. These sex trafficking allegations feel to me like they're going. to be really complicated to prove many years later. But I feel that this sharing of confidential information,

in violation of the Official Secrets Act is really easy to prove, because it's happening there in front of our eyes. Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Hugh Daugherty. I'm executive editor of the Daily Beast. I'm filling in for Joanna Coles, who is recovering from surgery. but will be back soon, and I know is enthusiastically reading the comments. Thank you to everybody who's been wishing her a recovery. We have such an exciting episode coming up for you.

We are going to be talking. I'm going to be talking to Tom Sykes. Tom Sykes is the Royalist. He is the Daily Beast authoritative correspondent of all things. And the British royal family and I just before we get into it, Tom, I just want to run through some of the things we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about Epstein. We're going to talk about crime, up alleged crime, real crime, definite crime, possible crime, but only talk about family feuds, but.

going to talk about scandals in Britain, in America, in the Middle East. We're going to talk about Congress. We're going to talk about the police. I mean, I can't believe the number of things that the British royal family are involved in. Come. Thank you for being with us. Thanks. You. And you may have missed the really important news today, which is that Prince William gave 5,000 pounds to a fella who's. going to walk 40 miles from his home to raise money for some charity.

So that should go a long way to addressing the problems. haunting the royal family at the moment, I think, wouldn't you? 5,000 pounds. That's that's for $8,000. That's a lot of money for the royal family or. Or is it because just to mention one of the many scandals we're going to get into. The king, King Charles gave 1.5 million pounds, which I guess is like $2.2 million to Virginia Giuffre. The most tragic and the most awful story of Epstein's victims.

And it turns out King Charles has now been implicated in it directly as well. So let's let's start at the beginning. Let's unpack all this. Let's start with Prince Andrew, and I'm calling him Prince Andrew. Just so you know, just so people know who I'm talking about. But, Tom, for you to take it from there. Yeah. So I mean, look, it it has been the most extraordinary. couple of weeks for the royal family, I suppose. Big picture, the way I, I'm.

thinking about this, I don't know if you, you know your physics, you. But there's a term in physics called. stable equilibrium versus unstable equilibrium. And a very good. example of something in stable equilibrium is like a Newton's cradle. Right. You know, the things that bang like that and you lift up one. and they go like that and they revert to their original shape. A typical example of something in unstable equilibrium is a pile of snooker balls. Right. And you tip one and they all collapse and they can't come back.

to their original shape. And I think we've always assumed that the royal family is in a stable equilibrium, that when these things happen, when Princess Diana dies. or Charles gets divorced or even, you know, these huge things like, like the abdication in 1936, we sort of assume that ultimately. it will come back to the shape that it originally was. But I think the feeling now is that this. crisis around Prince Andrew, ex Prince Andrew, is,

I suppose we really should call him, has metastasized. to such a level has become so extreme. that it feels like it's going to be very hard for the royal family. just to come back to its original shape and pretend that nothing has happened. I mean, this week alone, we've had a former prime minister, Gordon. Brown, calling for a police investigation into Andrew, saying that 90 Jeffrey Epstein flights landed and unloaded and reloaded.

sex trafficking victims at a London airport, some of whom appear to have been destined for Andrew. That that's just one of the things that's happened this week. But when former prime ministers are accusing you of being a member. of the royal family, of being involved in sex trafficking, I mean, as you will know here, usually you mention the royal family to any politician. serving or former or whatever. And and they write, they very quickly find a reason to run away from you.

at high speed because they don't want to talk about the royal family. Everybody wants to talk about the royal family now. And. I, we, we are way past the point of never complain, never explain. Like there is clearly going to have to be a massive apology from the royal family. at some point, because this all happened on Charles's watch. You know, the whole thing going back to 2010.

And there's been this. I think, really disgraceful attempt to blame everything on Queen Elizabeth. I don't think Queen Elizabeth was it. Clearly she wasn't blameless. Clearly Andrew was her favorite child and he was indulged. and she had a blind spot, and people tried to warn her about what he was up to. But the simple fact of the matter is that for the last. several years of her reign, she was dying of bone cancer. She couldn't get out of bed. She couldn't really see. She was very confused a lot of the time.

And they had a co monarchy, and Charles was running it together. And the idea that Charles wasn't across. what was happening with Virginia Giuffre when, you know, and this report in the sun saying that he contributed 1.5. million pounds, about $2 million towards the settlement, now the Palace are pushing back on that a bit, saying that's not the case. In a in a briefing to the times, I noticed. The Sun still have the story up, which is really interesting.

The sun clearly not in the mood to issue a correction. They have a very good royal correspondent. and a guy called Matt Wilkinson, very, very competent, experienced reporter. But but the point is that in a sense, the whole strategy of Charles's office throughout this. seems to have been either, first of all, to say nothing's happening. Then to say when something was happening, oh, there's nothing we can do.

And then finally to say, well, it's all my mother's fault, it's all mummy's fault. And to hide behind the skirts of that woman, you know, who, frankly, you know, has a lot of respect in the United Kingdom. It's not just the United Kingdom, Tom. I mean, this is, Queen Elizabeth was a woman who successive presidents. who agree about nothing else, who hate each other. You know, Donald Trump is a is known to be a massive royal fan.

And there's a whole lot, a lot to unpack later about that. But he has one of the only people that he has ever said nothing. but positive things about was Queen Elizabeth and Barack Obama. Somebody who Donald Trump agrees with on nothing size. has so many positive things to say about the Queen, a huge, you know, level of personal affection, from him and Michelle Obama. So Queen Elizabeth is like a figure that people understand. to be one of, we thought, unimpeachable virtue.

But let's just unpack for people what is Prince Andrew done? Because the list is extraordinary. We all knew that he had been pictured. with, at the time, a 17 year old girl. who had been trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein. And they were pictured together in London and Glenn Maxwell was part apart, a. flat or apartment. In a very exclusive address. And he had, he had his arm around her.

And that picture, of course, was Virginia Giuffre. And that set off this explosive series of slow running car crash. So what has happened in the last week? We've come to learn a lot more, right? About about everything that he was doing and everything he was alleged to be doing. Yeah. So everything, of course, stems really from or the story. The uncovering of this story stems from that photograph taken in.

Glenn Maxwell's townhouse in Belgravia. A very nice street in Belgravia, opposite a lovely pub, which you will know. by Nags Head. I have indeed been in that pub. exactly the kind of very well known, you know, many, I mean loads of people, I think, who are watching this. Well, visited London, maybe they're in London. This all happens in places. that people, people you know, are we've everybody has walked. past Buckingham Palace and seen the changing of the guard.

That that pub in Belgravia is one the people who people who live in London. all know. People who come to London. Many of them go, it's on one. So it's like where it's going. London guide. So all of this is happening in plain sight. Almost. Right? Right. Exactly, exactly. So, Glenn and, Andrew and all, all those characters. were always seen by all the people drinking at the Nags Head, which is literally opposite to which is, you know, it's a detail, but it is quite an interesting one. But but fundamentally, what has happened is that we've had this drip, drip,

drip of documents beginning originally with the stuff. that was released by the Democrats on the House. Oversight Committee that was from the Epstein estate. Then the successive two drops by the Department of Justice. And this so huge. There is so much paperwork and so much stuff to Saatchi. that literally journalists on every publication in the United. Kingdom are just going through them. And more and more stuff is emerging every day. Limited, really only by the bandwidth of the number of journalists.

able to search through it. So. it's gone incredibly quickly. from the allegations against Virginia Giuffre. The lies that Andrew told in his BBC Newsnight interview, for example, where he said that he was so vulnerable. that he just went to say goodbye to Andrew in 2010. I mean, this was one of the first things that was knocked down, but more and more stuff has come out now. Interestingly, although of course, the thing that I think will revolt.

most people the most are the allegations of sexual abuse against Andrew. I suspect that in the end, it might be a slightly Al Capone situation. and I think if they actually get him in the end, they might get him on this sharing of confidential information. Because obviously, as we all know, proving sexual abuse is really, really hard. There's there's so many people involved. It was transnational. It was happening all over the world.

As I said earlier, that release flights coming in and out of Stansted airport, we don't exactly know who these people are. And of course, these files, just because someone sends an email. saying something doesn't stand up in a court of law, what probably does stand up in a court of law. is if you send an email to someone, sending them confidential information. that you have as a consequence of your role as a public official. And this is what this politician called to Mandelson was doing,

and he is being fully investigated by the police. We've had the photographs of the police turning up with the plastic boxes, dragging out the files and all of that, and this is what Andrew was doing. We can see it there in black and white. He writes to Epstein. He says, I've got an amazing. opportunity in Helmand, in Afghanistan, you know, well, people are literally soldiers literally dying out there. He's figuring out,

is this a way to get in and curry favor with Epstein and make a bit of money? I should say, saying the British royal family, this is a a crazy feature of British life. The British royal family actually have access to the governments. most closely held secrets just because they are the royal family. Yes. And one of the extraordinary emails. that was uncovered by, Newsweek by a very, very competent reporter. there called Jack Royston, well known quite by name, British reporters.

What's in all the tabloids, literally shows this extraordinary email. chain of angry saying to his secretary, Amanda Thirsk, can you get me the, reports about, you know, what's going on in this country and, hassling. literally a senior. secretary in the government to be sent a report. She finally gets them, sends them to Andrew. Did you send someone to Epstein? I mean, it is absolutely extraordinary.

Tom, I just want to give you some color that Devon are excellent. Producer is in the corner, and I can see him. And unfortunately, we don't have a camera set up on him. He is reacting in real time to this. with absolute astonishment. Because I know you. You know, you live this every day. You Substack, the Royalist is reporting on this every day. And this. You know what? What we are talking about. He's literally has his jaw dropping.

I mean, it is really interesting. The Amanda Thirsk one is particularly interesting. So, yeah, one of my, one of my colleagues. in the trenches, Jack Royston, at as, as I said, he, he. is the one who surfaced this email about, of, Amanda Thirsk trying to get all these documents off the government. He's also got another really interesting story, that he did yesterday, I think, saying that when Andrew leaked this trade report to Epstein,

that was in the context of him trying to get a payoff. for Sarah Ferguson to sort out, debt problems, which was something that Epstein, you know, made a bit of a specialty with paying off Andrew. and Sarah Ferguson's debts. So it it is it feels to me that. these sex trafficking allegations feel to be like.

they're going to be really complicated to prove many years later. I think any normal person reading through those files. would conclude that Andrew was involved in it. But I feel that the sharing of confidential information. in violation of the Official Secrets Act is really easy to prove. because it's happening there in front of our eyes. And Tom has has Andrew offered any response to this? Because we've had days and days of this, and normally.

you would expect somebody in this position to offer a public response. Andrew said nothing. He no longer even has a press spokesperson. They're various people who used to work for him, who. you have to email for comment. They very rarely respond. But it does at least give him a right of reply when you're. writing about him. What we have had, however, is statements from the Prince of Wales and the King.

And there's another whole story in this, because the Prince of Wales. made a statement on Monday morning saying that they were terribly disgusted. at the revelations from the Epstein files that Prince of Wales, meaning William. and Kate, obviously, that they were discussed. because he was off on a tour of Saudi Arabia. and he didn't want it to sort of overshadow. and for them to be heckled on the tour, which in fact, in the end, they were just. as a complete aside, also in the Epstein files is, the crown. prince of Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler, Mohammed bin Salman,

physically body hugging Jeffrey Epstein. So it's it seems it's very hard to go around the world. and not just bump into Epstein's friends if you're a member of the royal family. Yeah. And this is even coming back to touch William, because William's Earthshot Prize. has now been reported to the Charity Commission over one of its founding. So William's Earthshot Prize gives million pounds. a year to five different.

incubator businesses that are trying to, like, save the world through tech. It's like a VC approach to like saving the world, right? It's kind of brilliant idea. It was kind of brilliant charity. They've done great stuff. And and he always. he's he's he's repeatedly come to the US and done the prizes here. I think he, he lasted them and in New York and in Boston before that. I might be the wrong way around. But he's he's absolutely you know it's been a big thing here. He's done segments on television talking about it. And, it has begun to engage some of the big tech companies and figures as well. So.

Right. Sure. And it's a brilliant prize. But guess what? Giving away £5 million a year is quite expensive. And then it peanuts by American standards, but in a paltry, you. know, you just helped. It's quite a lot of money. And it turns out that one of the founding members. was this guy, Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem, who was, until Friday the chief executive of DP world,

which is one of those extraordinary kind of logistics businesses that touches. sort of every part of our lives without realizing that's a Emirati business. And it turns out that Epstein and him were emailing. while he was in jail, including one particularly, disturbing email in which. Epstein. Right. Where are you? Are you okay? I loved the torture video. Well, I mean, you know, it's so.

as a charity in the United Kingdom, you're subject to this thing. called the charity Commission, and you have to make sure that the people. giving money to your charity, that it's coming. from, like legitimate sources, that it's not people trying to, you know, wash their dirty money basically through the charity. So Charity Commission said, we are aware of concerns about sources of funding to that short prize, assessing the information to determine any next steps. So, you know, we should just say that that email. was itself a scandal in the United States, because.

when the Epstein Files came out at the end of January, the reference, the torture video was you could you could read. And the fact that it was an email involving Jeffrey Epstein. But, Sultan, Sultan. Ahmed bin Salman name had in fact been redacted. And, the the two representatives in the House. of the House of Representatives who have pushed this so hard, Thomas Massie, the Republican, Ro Khanna, the Democrat, both highlighted.

what on earth was this name redacted for us? And the Department of Justice was basically shamed into revealing it. And, file that name itself. You know, should never have been redacted. But here we have it's created this whole new, episode, I guess, of this scandal. Yeah. And and, of course, so much of this scandal here, isn't it, is about accountability. I mean, certainly over here, like, that's the way that this is the word that.

you keep hearing now among people saying that, you know, not enough is being done. The King's argument up to now has always been, but I've done all I can. There's nothing more I can do. We saw shift in that on Monday, when the King, in this statement that blew, frankly blew Williams long planned tour of Saudi Arabia after the water. The king literally as. William and the entire press corps arrived in Riyadh,

Charles made a statement saying that they he would cooperate. with the police, that he would he would help the police if requested. I'm told there were frantic scenes at Riyadh airport with, some journalists actually choosing to to come back to literally turn around. at the airport and come home terrified that Andrew was about to be arrested. Say really, really, really bad karma for royals to steal each other's thunder,

but to to blow your son out of the water when he's on a massive diplomatic mission. I mean, the idea that that couldn't have waited 24 hours or 48 hours is just crazy. And that really gets to the heart of this conflict. between William and Charles, which is tearing the royal family apart. I mean, the, the, the that, the, the anger, the that William's camp and William's side. have towards Charles about the way that he's dealt with Andrew.

And it's very, very striking the similarities. to how they feel about how he's dealt with Harry. Andrew himself. No, he hasn't apologized. He won't speak to the media. He's hiding away at Wood Farm and Sandringham. and seems completely unwilling to engage in any public form at all. With this, the King has said that he will cooperate. with the police, but he, the way he made that statement,

just as his son was arriving on diplomatic tour in Saudi Arabia, which then completely stole all the thunder from that tour. and I'm told, ended up with frantic scenes at Riyadh airport of journalists. wondering whether they needed to pack up and come home. in case Andrew was going to be lifted by the cops. So let's just talk about the idea of a member of the royal family. being investigated by the police. It just doesn't happen, right? I mean, there have been times in the past, Princess Anne famously,

in Britain, not famously here, but, famously Britain. Princess Anne kept getting pulled over for speeding. and she would be taken to court and she would pay a fine. And that was kind of it. And that's but the the royal family, the royal family are above crying really aren't they, Tom. Yeah they are. And that's why it's very interesting, this report that Charles. potentially paid off some of Virginia due for a settlement. Now, as I say, this was a report in the sun saying.

that he gave 1.5 million pounds towards the settlement. They palace. and now trying to distance himself from it, saying to the times that it's not accurate, but I note that. the sun have not corrected the story of not taking it down. It's worth saying that settlement. at the time, Andrew's then spokespeople said that there was no admission of liability. and this was basically to, you know, make it go away. Obviously what we've learned from the files is that there was much.

more damaging material, and he made, you know, he may well continue to deny, that he. had sex with Virginia Giuffre, but there was all sorts. of other damaging material in the files that we did not know about at the time. that color our understanding of that settlement. But I think the thing is, Hugh, isn't it? Is that so many of these files are emails. Yeah. So is it conceivable to say that. the palace didn't say, you know what, pal?

Before we hand out, before we sign a check for $50 million, we're just going to have a quick run. through the servers and see what messages you were sending to Jeffrey Epstein. It just doesn't seem credible to me. And this raises a really, really interesting constitutional issue, right? Which is that if the king, in whose name justice is performed, if the king knew about what you were doing, is it still really a crime that you can be prosecuted for? And we saw this, of course, very famously with Paul Barrow, who was Princess.

Diana's butler, who kept thousands of items of Princess Diana. I mean literally including pieces of her underwear. and was prosecuted by the police and managed to get out of it. because he said that he told the Queen and then the Queen mysteriously, at the very last, remembered that indeed, he had told her that he was keeping. several thousand items of hers for safekeeping, and in his utter collapse, 200 miles from London. Yes.

And well, hey, he wanted to look after them. Yeah. And I think that, Andrew, I think I think part of the reason why, if this never gets anywhere near a courtroom, I think that will be part of the reason why, because of the whole constitutional difficulties. But I also think that if it doesn't end up in court. at this stage, and if it doesn't end up with a proper investigation,

I think it's extremely damaging for the royal family. So that kind of court, if they do in their court, if they don't like. I was talking to friends of William and Charles last week, and William's friends were saying, when William becomes king, that if this was happening under his watch, there'd be a proper investigation, a proper police investigation and blah, blah blah. You know, he'd be he'd be, you know, dad down the station. answering questions with PC Plod and Charles, his side were saying, it's really easy to say that when you're not actually the King,

because it's like being an opposition politician going, I'm going to, you know, lower taxes and give you free childcare. But. if you're actually King and. Andrew comes into court and starts testifying, you know, who knows what happened, what might happen. And then we saw this very other. sinister development in the Sunday Times at the weekend, where. Andrew was starting to be described as unstable by the palace.

This starting to be a suggestions that he's suicidal. Some of it, some suspicious minds are suggesting, feels like a softening up exercise for him to be committed. to a psychiatric hospital and which, frankly, would solve a lot of the royal family's problems. And, this is a slight, you know, kind of back down into history. But that would not be the first time that the royal family or member. or their relatives, have found themselves committed. to psychiatric hospitals to get them out of out of sight.

It's a. very bizarre feature of royal history. But interestingly, where Andrew is living now would farm. on the Sandringham Estate was, of course, famously the home of Prince John. He was this, you know, mentally troubled, mentally disabled, obviously, I should say Prince John, we're talking about the early 1900s here. Yeah. We we we kind of understand,

you know, words were used at the time that we wouldn't use. No, we think he was probably in some way mentally disabled. But yeah, I think, you know, I think he had down syndrome. Yeah actually. So even by the standards today obviously he would have been. completely part of society. But in those days, yeah, it was keep him out, keep him out of sight. And Prince John and I believe he died very young. I think he died at the age of 12 or 13. But yeah. So they don't have, but, you know, that's a long time ago, obviously.

You know, look, even if Andrew does get locked up in a mental asylum, it will be a extraordinary development. But there's definitely a feeling. we've had these kind of reports that he's had his guns taken off. You know, the hint being that he could kill himself or somebody else. You know, Ally King, defender of Nepal, who famously murdered his entire family, too. I actually went to school. I was about to say very nice.

We were all at Eton, I believe, Tom. So. Yes, yes, yes. The elite, pretty elite British school. Yes. The the the home or the not the home, but the, the school that's produced Prime ministers and members. of the royal family, including William and Harry, including the royals, Tom himself and, murdering the Polish royals. I said yes, well, not since not since I was back in my dorm. with nanny tucking me in. Have I been being so worried about the state of the British,

as I say, a member of the royal family and his love of firearms? Yes. But, you know, definitely. The reunions must be amazing. Yeah, yeah. But this is definitely there's. definitely a attempt to paint Andrew now as mentally unstable. So just and it's really notable. And the language is really similar to what was used around Diana. Yes. Where Diana was painted, as is, is unstable, emotional, lashing out, suicidal, all this kind of stuff.

So the other the other big thing that's hanging over this, for people in the United States is. is he going to tell the truth to Congress? Because, well, there was this all of this scandal has come out. because of the actions of Congress, not the actions of Donald Trump. He was forced into signing the law that released the Epstein files. But the the votes of members of Congress are forced open these 3 million files. And by the way, 3 million are unpublished.

3 million have been kept secret. So who knows what is hiding in there. But, one of the key demands that rule Canada, who I mentioned. had exploded the files open and got the redactions, got redactions removed, which I've already toppled. This Sultan from, from the Emirates. But one of the demands that Royal Canada has been making. is that Andrew must come to Congress and tell the truth. I mean, it's not going to happen.

It's all going to happen in a million years. Andrew would never have legal advice telling him to do that. He's never going to come and voluntarily give evidence again. I mean, Andrew is now, admittedly, it's not harder to find people who will identify themselves as Andrew's friends. But before this most recent dump, when Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey was saying, you know, he had to come to the US, people who knew Andrew said to me, that he just felt that this was like them just jumping on the bandwagon.

They knew he was never going to come. This was just them trying to grandees themselves, you know, and they were. they were literally saying, know, maybe they need to focus on people in their own country. Because let's be honest, Andrew has not yet. faced any legal ramifications. It looks like those are coming, but. he's faced a hell of a lot more than anyone in the United States. I mean, I can't even think of anybody. in the United States even being fired from that job. Barely.

Well, I think the idea to I think we've had one casualty, Thomas Massey and the US Congress, to say how appalling it is that Andrew. doesn't give evidence. Look, I'm not saying that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor shouldn't. give evidence to US Congress. Of course he should. I'm just saying that's like never going to happen. And so I think that, frankly, I think that what I want to see. is Andrew face a criminal investigation in the United Kingdom, and that I think, amazingly, actually could happen.

And we could end up in a situation here where His Majesty's brother. is at leisure in His Majesty's prison. And wouldn't that be an extraordinary turn of events, the British royal family? Well, I, I think it's probably like, I don't know, 500 or 600 years. since one member of the royal family locked up another one. But one of the things that's kind of reverberating around this scandal, Tom, is that more and more details. come out that paint a really a picture of,

extraordinary, I suppose, moral turpitude as one very highbrow way of putting it. Leland, for example, that the, the Andrew appeared to circumvent security regulations. at Buckingham Palace. Yes. So a report. in the Sun today saying that Andrew would call down. to the gate when you had young women coming up using the phrase Mrs. Windsor will arrive shortly.

Please let her in and show her up. Now, this isn't from the Epstein files, but it's obviously triggered by the revelations. And very interestingly, a character who I'm sure you'll remember, from your days on the British tabloids. He, Paul Page, the notorious everybody comes around again. if it every security story ends up with Paul. So Paul Page was an enormously corrupt member. of C19, the royal Protection Squad. He was I mean, all kinds.

I mean, I think in the end there were drugs and there were women. And ultimately I think it was a kind of pyramid scheme. that he was running for other cops that that finally brought him down. And but he. is a fascinating source, despite obviously being a compromised, witness, he is a fascinating source of insight. because he hates the royal family so much for what they did to him. And he actually has, contacted Thames Valley Police just literally today.

We're recording this on Friday, to say that he's very willing to cooperate. and that he also saw all these women being going up to Andrew. with absolutely no checks. And to the extent that the joke in the palace is that Andrew. should have a revolving door fitted to his bedroom. And of course, Andrew Andrew Rooney, who is a friend of this podcast. and a regular guest, I should say, Tom, on your Royalists channel. Revealed just the extraordinary scale. of Andrew's sexual, activities,

around the world. And one of the things that this comes back to, and I know you quite rightly say. that it's very likely to be an Al Capone scenario of a prosecution, that it's about the money and about the secrets that clearly, Prince Andrew, when he was Prince Andrew, was known to be rich. He was known to be a womanizer. But now we have questions over the origin of that. with no statement from from Andrew about where those are coming from. But the, the, the side of the sexual side of this.

is obviously a big part of this of the of the picture. of what was happening that that raises this big question for the king, if the if the Buckingham Palace. policemen knew that things were bad, how can the person at the top not know? Yes. And of course, that's. exactly where I think inevitably this is going to end up, because these revelations are not going to stop coming.

I imagine that pretty soon people are going to come forward. There's already a lot of suggestion in the UK newspapers. that they know who a lot of these women are. They're just choosing not to name them. I imagine they are being phoned up on a regular basis and being asked. if they want to break their anonymity. And, you know, potentially be the nail in the coffin. And I think that what we are going to see it. at some point fairly soon is a statement from the police,

you know, little saying, there's very familiar language that a, 66 year. old man has attended voluntarily to a station. So and so because it just can't go on. It can't go on that, that the. the sense of outrage in the United Kingdom is extraordinary. I mean, there's even a, story in the Telegraph today, you know, traditionally a very loyal, newspaper, but traditionally, say, the Palace Line saying, you know, that something really has to be done, that just these plaintive,

declarations that one is. terribly upset and one is terribly shocked and disgusted are not enough. Action is required. And that action involves Andrew being investigated by the police. And just to put that in context, royals don't get investigated by the police, and public opinion. in the UK has rarely been anything other than positive. about the Royal family.

So the royal family is as unpopular. now as it has been in my time doing this job. And I would say a long time before that. The latest polls have them at about 45%, saying we should keep the monarchy, which is traditionally very bad. I mean, obviously a lot of politicians would kill for those kinds of ratings. But, I famously, you know, Queen Elizabeth had had stratospheric ratings. Individual members of the family is still quite popular. You know, William and Catherine particularly very popular.

Charles suffering, obviously Catherine suffering. But overall for under a by the time. less than half of the population think it's a good idea to have a monarchy. You know, you start to out, it starts to present questions. about how this institution, which, to be totally honest, can't really very easily be got rid of. I mean, if you thought Brexit was divisive, wait till they try and get rid of the British royal family. So realistically they can't actually be got rid of.

But what they do need to do is be reformulated. and restructured in a very significant way, I think. And I know one of the things that you've reported on. repeatedly on, on the royal list. is that William himself has some views on this that are, you know, might be pretty radical for some of the royal. So for some of his family members, yes. Well, I don't think he's. going to go as far as Richard the Third dead who? He drowned his brother in a barrel of mumsy wine.

But I do think that he is going to make decisive moves. And I've reported a lot about this. And the last time that I spoke to somebody who was informed. about what William's plans were, they said to me, it's very simple. If you're a working royal and you're going around doing the boring job site. We saw Catherine today at a school in London with her place to be charity, reading stories to school aged children and shaking hands and opening gyms.

You will get your HRH, your prince or your Princess title, your place to live, your car and your police security. If you're not a working royal, you won't get that you and your title. and your HRH will be taken off you, and it's obviously an incredible. opportunity now for William to say, look, I'm right, you are wrong and I'm right. And we cannot have Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet.

wandering around the globe ruining my kids right when my kid comes to the throne. So I think, I think there is a huge opportunity for William in this. And I think that the power has been bleeding to William's camp. ever since Charles announced he had cancer, which, if you know, the nerds among us will recall, it wasn't entirely intentional. He meant to announce that he was having treatment. for a benign, enlarged prostate, and then they found the cancer.

while they were doing it, and they announced it wouldn't. because by that it was too late to keep it secret. Ever since that ill advised announcement that he had cancer. Frankly, if you were a courtier working in the palace. or you have a job in the palace, in the civil service. of these kinds of things, and you're wondering about. how are you going to pay your kids school fees and college fees? Ye you're looking for what Prince William wants to do. So the power has all been bleeding over to William. Everyone's jockeying for position. Everyone knows what's coming in the next five years, you know? So.

William is in this very, very significant, controlling, commanding situation. And I think now is the time for him to push and say, you know what? We need a co monarchy, the same as your mother. gave you a co monarchy in the last ten years of her reign. You are now in the last ten years of your reign. And you need to start sharing power with me. And I think at that stage, if Charles can do the right thing, really apologize for what's happened with this debacle with Andrew.

and what Andrew has done on his watch, on his watch. You know, properly apologize for it, become a kind of king emeritus. and hand over control to to William. I think there's a chance they could salvage it. And Tom. What what's next? Because we have been watching from this side of the Atlantic. We've been watching this exploding scandal. And as you say, perhaps it's taken some attention away from the exporting scandal here, but there just seems to be an endless, an endless explosion of this from the UK.

Is it going to be more coming? Well, I think there is, because I think we're only limited at the moment. by how many reporters an editor wants to assign to search through those files, you know, and every reporter is now very familiar with that interface. And typing those names in and trying different things. and trying different pseudonyms and seeing what comes up. There are 3 million documents in that dump.

So, you know, do we could I imagine that probably only. a very small percentage of them have been looked at so far. I, I think that there is inevitably going to be more stuff. I think there's going to be hugely damaging stuff. And I think that ultimately this is going to end up with Andrew being arrested. and the Charles making one of these, you know, 6:00 Friday evening. videos with the BBC saying, I'm terribly sorry and I'm devastated.

and I apologize fulsomely to the entire nation for what happened. And I take responsibility for it. Well, Tom, I will let you get back to scouring those Epstein files. It's as you as as you say, all of us as editors, as reporters are very familiar with up with that interface. and astonished every time that we open it up and find more secrets. There's only one place to get the best, the most fearless reporting. Tom, can blush when I when I say this, but his reporting,

your reporting on the British royal family has been absolutely without parallel. and without fear. Go to the Royalist. Tom's on Substack. He's on YouTube. And there's just an endless stream. of intrigue and scandal and even some good news, Tom. Right. Even even people getting 5,000 pounds to walk across England. Well, exactly. And I mean, if, you know, if that doesn't bring a smile to your face here, what what what what possibly could. Yeah.

A, chat, is set off on a walk across England and he's got it been posted. on Instagram saying it like it is to get 5,000 pounds from the Prince of Wales. So I think that really, whatever objections you might have to. our family, I think you should shut up and be grateful for what he's given. Well, we'll see if when he gets the other side of England, if the royal family is the same royal family, or if it's minus a few members. Tom, thank you for joining us and look forward. to hearing more about this engulfing scandal from you in the future.

Thanks very much. Well, what a scandal. And as Tom says, it is only getting bigger and bigger. We are going to keep covering it. And all the Epstein scandal relentlessly. Thank you to everyone who's been watching, especially to everyone who's been commenting. I've been in the comments a lot. I'm so delighted that so many of your questions, one of the best for recovery. It is going well. Yes, she will be back. I'm just going to steal one thing from her while she's not looking,

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