How Creepy Epstein Tried to Keep His Crimes Secret | The Daily Beast Podcast

I asked him what he thought about the Epstein arrest, and he said, Jeffrey Epstein will never make it to trial. There are towels in there. Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm here. Daugherty and executive editor of The Daily Beast. I'm sitting in for Joanna Coles, who is on a well-deserved vacation. She is not on vacation. However, from reading your comments and she's been texting to see. just how well informed, how engaged and how many there are. Thank you to everybody who has commented.

We are going to have so much for people to comment on today, because we are delighted to welcome Tina Brown. Tina is, of course, legendary journalist, a brilliant magazine editor, Vanity Fair. and The New Yorker, a bestselling author, and for us at The Daily Beast, the visionary co-founder with Barry Diller of our site. She is now the hottest author on Substack. Her diary, Fresh Hell, which is out.

just about every week, sometimes more often, is absolute must read. And that is the reason why she is joining us today. Tina, it's an absolute honor. to have you at The Daily Beast is fun for me to be back. Welcome back to this building. We we still we live in your vision. You created this site. And that is exactly what I want to get into with you. And it thrives in role as well. Really does it? The thing that I want to talk about is one of the one of the greatest rulers.

of the Daily Beast, which was of. a groundbreaking piece of journalism that was produced under your watch. But the reason that I mentioned Fresh Hail Your Substack is because you dropped. an incredible set of revelations about Jeffrey Epstein, the man of the moment, the scandal of the century, a story that you continue to cover. And I want to talk about those I want to talk about. What must be the most chilling encounter that I have read about.

with Jeffrey Epstein, which happened right in this building you are sitting. Yeah. It was it was a start. And there's just there's so much to get into. This is an amazing opportunity to talk about Epstein, about Trump and about MAGA. I would just say to everybody, subscribe to Fresh Hell. It is absolutely unmissable. Obviously subscribe to The Daily Beast as well. But, Tina, thank you for joining. Thank you to you and comments. Just to set this up, I'm good to go back in time.

1980s and. 1990s, you were at the center of the New York social scene. You were covering it. You were editing first Vanity Fair and The New Yorker. was Jeffrey Epstein, a name on your radar? You know, he really wasn't much. I mean, I had met Jeffrey Epstein. It is true, because I used to attend the Clinton Global Initiative every year in September. You know, it happened at the time of the UN, and there was always a big opening night reception I met at Jeffrey.

Epstein there because actually, he was one of the first donors to CGI. So he always was there kind of working the room. And I, you know, he's just he was like this cold eyed financier kind of working. the crowd, not anybody that was kind of particularly memorable to me. I do remember him as being a very. there's co there's a column called About His Eyes, but that's that's all I knew. I never really and chatted with him much. And whether whispers was, was it where the no. Was some men at that time Jeffrey Epstein. He was just a financial cafe society guy.

Glenn Maxwell was a far. more sort of prominent social figure. I knew her. Not well, either, but, you know, being a Brit and, you know, my husband had exposed her her father, you know, Robert Maxwell when he was editor of the Sunday Times, he did this excoriating piece proving her father was a crook. And so I sort of, you know, I didn't therefore, eagerly come up with was her claim, Maxwell, because I'm sure that,

certainly know that Harry was a kind of, you know, noir to to that family. But, you know, she was a lively sort of girl about town. woman who you saw a book parties and the tree functions and, you know, black tie evenings sometimes. So I did know her a bit. But the interesting thing was. she was never with Epstein, so it wasn't as if she came in with Epstein. She didn't. She never came anywhere with Epstein at that time. So, I mean, I didn't even know. she had this deep relationship with him because I never saw him with her.

And the other person on the scene, of course, or his know, on the scene. Donald Trump did indeed. I certainly did know him. Yes, indeed I was. I sat next to him at, first, at a dinner. that, Ivana a lunch, then ironically with, Getty at the time. And, Trump was sitting there with somebody quite boring next to me. and somebody quite boring next to him. So he and I were sort of talking to each other over our lunch partners, and, he was, I thought, hilarious, you know, bravado,

sort of swashbuckling New York character, you know, he said, oh, you know, Ivana made me go to the opera last night, you know, for hours like Pavarotti, who cares? You know, it was like it was like that. And I thought it was quite amusing. And we covered him, you know, subsequently a lot, until he started to unravel his business and his divorce. And then he did not like what we said about him. But, yeah, I knew him, too. So I'm going to fast forward, to 2010, because that was the year. that you commissioned Conchita Sarnoff to investigate Jeffrey Epstein.

And we are going to put links to those stories in the show notes, because they can still be read. They are absolutely extraordinary pieces of journalism. They are full of details, are names that continue to resonate to this day. But can you just unpack the back story I brought this to? It's very interesting because I didn't know Conchita Sarnoff before this was, I'd been at the beast at that point, you know, a couple of years. I didn't know country to sound off at that point, but I was called,

by somebody we both knew who said that. because I used to do the women in the World Summit, which were about empowering women who many of whom had been sort. of sexually trafficked or, you know, no education, etc. he thought that I would respond well to a story that he had he. knew someone had written, who is a sex was. a trafficking activist, a sex trafficking activist, Conchita Sarnoff. And she had Richard stumble on the story, and he thought that I should see it.

because he thought it was a big story. and others wouldn't have the courage to publish it. And he thought that we would, because we'd shown a commitment to women who had been, you know, abused. That's really why I think she made her way to me, and she came to see me and told me this extraordinary story about how she had. been in the course of her, sex trafficking investigations, nothing to do with journalism, her activism. And she had been interviewing a child. sex Mexican child sex trafficker in the Palm Beach Stockade. And during the course of the interview, he told her that a great many of these.

very underage girls were trafficked, too rich, men, American men in Palm Beach. And she was really taken aback because she had thought that. the whole kind of root of these girls was like, you know, cartel members, etc. she didn't expect to hear that wealthy, you know, A-list. kind of Palm Beach people were having girls delivered to them. So she decided. And then she remembered a small item saying that Jeffrey Epstein. had been arrested. And she actually did know Jeffrey Epstein had all strapped for a date in New York.

So the name resonated. So she decided to go to the, Palm Beach police. and ask if she could look at look at the files. And when she looked at the files on the case, she was completely, I mean, her hair was on fire because it turned out. Epstein had received a 13 month sentence for soliciting. Prostitution was to, to minors. But actually, in the files it showed that he had. there were multiple girls, I think it was two dozen girls who had been, who had lodged complaints about him, his activities, and she couldn't understand how this had got in a bargain down.

to such a tiny sentence of 13 months of, of of, you know, where he was able to. It was a work release program. It wasn't even actually behind bars. That's when she thought, we've got a story here. And she realized she found that he'd made this sweetheart deal with the, the, attorney general there. And then the question was why it was. And so what the story really became was how this man, because of his contacts, his political donors, who he gave a huge amount of money, of course, to, to politicians,

his contacts, his, his wealth, his, his pressure, you know, with his lawyers, his willingness to humiliate and sort of, you know, really denigrate the young girls who'd accused him, had actually got him to a place where he could just get out. with a slap on the wrist so that that was our story, really. And, it was an outrageous story, in my view. And I'm. And I think I was totally shocked. I think that someone who was obviously such a predatory pedophile.

could have such a small sentence and, and he was back in society. I mean, that's when I began to take notice of him again. And, you know, he wasn't totally prominent. It's not like he was in the papers every day. But Jeffrey Epstein was back on the scene. You mean you can see that? So that's where, of course, made it very interesting to me. And so we published, I think it was a six. part series by Conchita that was fantastic journalism. I just want I, I should highlight, the original headline, Jeffrey Epstein Billionaire Pedophile Goes free.

And in this piece, Conchita, I had the privilege to speak to yesterday. And you remains engaged in the story. She highlighted some of the names that still resonate to this day. Prince Andrew, the connections to. Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak, who's a former Brit, the former Israeli prime minister, Bill Richardson, who was a former New Mexico governor, you know, the late Bill Richardson and Larry Summers, who. at the time was described a former Treasury secretary,

went on to run Harvard, still a prominent economist. When you saw those names, what was your feeling? Well, I was just stunned. You know, I just thought, there's a web here that we have here. It's something much bigger than I had realized. So we published the first piece, and that's when I first got a phone call. First of all, I got a call from Epstein's lawyer and making. sort of noises about suing, and I kind of ignored that. Then I got a call from Epstein himself. You know, now he's my best friend, having met him, you know, twice or something. And you had never really spoken to him.

You had. No, I mean, no, no, no, no, he knew who I was. I knew who he was. But yeah. No. So he wasn't a friend and he kind of was very sort of on the phone. It was like, I just want to say, you know, you should be aware. that Conchita Sarnoff is a well known nutcase. I mean, she's been spreading this nonsense about me. You know, it's totally ridiculous. You should kill this story. So I thanked him. I said, well, thank you very much. If you got a problem, you know, talk to the database lawyer, end of story. And then a couple of days later, I went out to lunch.

and I came back from lunch into this very glass. building that we were sitting into my, you know, glass office. and sitting in my own office. in a chair in front of my desk was guess who, Jeffrey Epstein? And I was stunned. I mean, I stood at the door just kind of aghast. because my question is like, how did he get past security? Because we have a security desk. downstairs who apprehended me today and took my picture, and they were there. and, you know, in force then very hard to get past.

cos I don't think people ever do. So how he got through, I don't know. I mean, he is a master class which was a master class con man. So maybe he was just able always to kind of get what he wanted. But he came out and he'd come into my office. and he'd obviously said to my assistant, you know, where is Tina Brown's office? And he went and sat in my room. So I stood by the door. and I said to him, Jeffrey, you know, what are you doing here? He said, just stop. And he looked at me with this kind of snake eyes cold, and it was menacing.

It was a really menacing. And he pointed his finger and he said, just stop. And I said, Jeffrey, you know, we are continuing to do these pieces. If you have an issue to talk to, I'll just stop. Said there will be consequences if you don't stop. And then he just got up and he left my room. And it was a very chilling experience. I mean, it was scary actually, but we barreled ahead and obviously. it meant we were extremely careful with the legal readings,

you know, which were which were very careful. But and I fully expected a sort of, you know, a 12, 12 barrel kind of legal assault after this. But he went very quiet. And I think that he decided that at that time, this was the early. days of the beast. It was. also a time when there was a less of a sense of, like, a story. going viral, you know, and I think that he decided, you know what? I'm going to wait it out, see how bad it gets. If I start to fan the flames, it might get worse. Let's see whether we can just kind of ride it out.

And he swiftly followed up with a whole kind of, philanthropic charm offensive, where he was constantly. being quoted as having given money to to various foundations, etc.. And I think that one of the points then was that a Jeffrey. Epstein wasn't terribly well known at all. I mean, he wasn't really known to anyone. except, you know, the kind of social in-crowd, as it were. Secondly, it was pre MeToo. And in those days, you know, those kind of stories didn't quite get the same traction that they might do.

They might they certainly did do later. And of course, the story was then taken up by Judy Brown at the Miami Herald. And she she actually built on Cat country the story. But that was post MeToo. So, you know, it had a far bigger impact then. But, it was a very unsettling experience. And you could see what a menace he could be. And how, of course, he would overpower. some young, you know, 15 year old girl, you know, very easily. He was so intimidating.

So, you know, it was, I look back on it, of course, with, you know, the in in a very different way than how I saw it at the time. Interesting. Interestingly, about six months after this, I got a phone call. from the publicist, Peggy Siegel, and she said to me, Tina, I want you to come to a great dinner that we're having tonight. Prince Andrew is in town, and I thought you might want. to come to this dinner because I know you know Prince Andrew. She said it's a Jeffrey Epstein's house. And the other guests wait for, Woody Allen and Charlie Rose.

So I just I was standing out there, and I didn't know. I don't think Michael heard it, but we had a writer called Lloyd Grove. who at the time was working for us, and he was in the next village and really a legendary media journalist. He was he's never forgotten it because I just kind of exploded into the film. Oh, fuck, is this the Pedophiles Ball? I said, you know, what are you. How dare you, like, ask me to this dick? Because she obviously hadn't read our pieces. I don't know what did she said. Oh, I don't know what you're talking about. I mean, no, that's all old stuff.

That's just nothing to she, obviously. I mean, he was still perpetrating the myth that he was. an inevitable human at that point, and people were still buying into it. I am happy to say I declined. And now, of course, that dinner has become almost like a sort of, you know, where you one of the people who went to that same, you know, because it was like such it I mean, part of me wishes to God I have been there because, I mean, what a what a scene. Frankly, it was this, I believe was. a dinner that was also attended by George Stephanopoulos and Katie Cooper.

Indeed. And both of them have expressed grave regret for that. Indeed, I said that they had clearly no idea of the intention. I believe George Stephanopoulos, who said that he was fascinated. by the idea of meeting Prince Andrew and would had no. previous are an experience of Epstein and no subsequent feelings. That irritated me even more because it also meant they hadn't read. our six part series on The Daily Beast, of which I was enormously proud. But you see, that is how Epstein worked, though. I mean, the hook was Prince Andrew. Yes.

I mean, the fact is, is that George Stephanopoulos would not have gone. to dinner at Epstein's house, but he always use these people. And in many ways, you know, it's interesting. His whole game, you know, was to kind of use other. other names to catch the big only the big whales that he was interested in. But as we know, he really didn't have any clients. He only had about three clients. Essentially. It didn't matter. The whole kind of charade of like knowing people and. and being able to get anyone to come to his house. was really all about creating the social theater.

that would excite his or. and build credibility with the big whales that would then invest. So did you have any subsequent encounters with him? Was not never another unwise invitation. For all I know, there was no well, no, indeed. I mean piggy back track and such. You have no idea. And then call me back and said, you know, because I was actually about to sit down and write the story up. and then I'm afraid. I, I went out because she didn't call me, said, oh, you won't write this, will you? Let me write this? So, yeah.

No, she. And then, of course, Peggy suffered a lot from the fact that she did continue to. to see Jeffrey and invited him to her screenings and so forth. I believe that Peggy Siegel has said that she was never paid by Epstein, or represented him directly, but that she helped him socially. And who came to speak to that appeal that you. Yeah. Yep. I know listen, I mean, I think that, to be in his web was to be, you know, at dinners with the likes of the people I just mentioned. So there were some people who dug that, you know.

What is it? I was just talking. You you mentioned Michael and Michael Daley, who is, our senior correspondent. He's a legendary figure in the Daily Beast, amazingly distinguished journalist. And, I was just talking to him. We were discussing the impacts at, Jeffrey Epstein has had on this web. and the names of people that he has either brought down from public life. Prince Andrew, he had, possibly terminal effect and Bill gates as marriage. He's led to the disgrace of Jeff. Staley, who was, of a a senior and significant banker.

And and there been suicides, too. I mean, there is a kind of terrible darkness around Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, there've been at least four suicides, in the wake of Epstein. You know, two of the young girls, died, you know, in their 30s. Reese. More recently, there was, of course, the the suicide, which made a lot of news of Virginia Giuffre, who was the girl who, of course, who was trafficked by Epstein to Prince Andrew. And she committed suicide in Australia aged 41, having said she never would.

So once again, it's like, did she commit suicide? It was always this strange question mark around all these people around Epstein. And of course, there was another suicide of his major partner in crime who was, you know, Jean-Luc Brunel, who was the man the French, model agency owner, who really essentially was a kind of partner. for an Epstein in finding girls and and sending them to Epstein. You know, he was another real kind of underage, shock.

And, he killed himself in a in a prison in Paris. the same way he knotted bedsheets in his case. Well, one of the ones, the other really chilling and, prescient, revelations in on your Substack. was what an FBI agent told Conchita in 2019. Just two sets in 2019. In July, Jeffrey Epstein was arrested at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey. when he returned from Paris, where he had been spending time.

And it was, I was working. I'm a working journalist, but at the time we were absolutely. astonished to learn that this had happened. We had what many, many people, every outlet had covered Jeffrey Epstein extensively for the last few years. And this revelation came out entirely out of the blue. But, Conchita, told you something absolutely chilling will continue to continue. And I sort of stayed in touch, and she remained like a dog.

with a bone, like, great. Like every sort of great investigator. She just remained outraged. Her outrage never went away anyway. So she texted me. She said, you know, I've just got I must tell you something incredible. And I said, what's that? She said, I just heard. was talking to one of my major FBI sources, and she is sourced up the wazoo. And the FBI, she really is. She has incredible, high echelon relationships in that, in the Justice Department. And she said he just said to me, I asked him what he thought about the Epstein arrest, and he said, Jeffrey Epstein will never make it to trial.

There are towels in there. It's a chilling thing. I mean, I personally am of the dissuasion that that he it was not suicide. I have always found it very hard to believe that it was. because he was actually, you know, this was not long after his arrest. There was still some legal hope that he could be caught out on bail. In fact, he'd had a pretty positive meeting before he killed himself. with his own lawyer, telling him that he thought the chances. of getting bail were, you know, getting out on bail were actually better.

So, you know, it was too early and, you know, in the moment for him to really, I think, you know, commit suicide, not to mention all the multiple, you know, so-called coincidences of the two gods, you know, who were asleep outside, apparently outside the salon. So they didn't notice anything. One of them was supposedly online shopping. You know, there was the the cellmate who was supposed to be there. Who? Everybody who's a suicide risk in Rikers always has. Oh, MK, as it was, always has, you know, a code cellmate.

That person had been moved. And so he was on his own. even that which was quite against, you know, prison, protocol, in fact. And then, of course, the missing minutes in the, the surveillance footage, which was were gets more and more murky as. I was just before we started this recording. Those missing minutes. apparently grew some excellent reporting by wired magazine had. found initially. that the metadata suggested that what we were told was the full video. was not, in fact, the full raw video, and that it was at least a minute missing.

There are now at least three and a half missing minutes. Indeed, and it was spliced together from other. It wasn't a single discrete piece of video. It was it was dispatched together. And. No, I mean, it's it's three minutes long enough. I mean, how long did it take the Navy Seals to get into a bin laden, house and, and and, you know, kill everybody there. I mean, it is it's a mysterious question. and I don't think has been fully,

properly investigated. I mean, I never understood why Bilbao like a day after kind of the war, certainly very close to the day. after it flew immediately down there and spent a long time in the prison. I mean, why, there's too many unanswered questions. And of course, now the biggest question is why, having hyped this whole question of Epstein all these years, I mean, Don Epstein, a Donald Trump junior, tweeted, I think in 2003, in a time to release the files, you know, so they were all on it.

I will say for Trump that when he was asked by Fox if he would. pardon him the full tape, if you look at it not as a as opposed to. the soundbite, is more equivocal than what we've been told, because we only ever. see the thing where he says, yes, I would, I would release the files. He then followed it up with quite a little demo ring of he had, if it seems as if there is credible, you know. So it was a little more, much less, you know, emphatic when he was asked about there are the JFK files. I thought you offered a vague a brilliant description of this.

scandal and mystery that it's like JFK and Marlin Monroe. It seems that every time we pull back another layer, we just find more mystery. Yeah. One of the most remarkable things is we are sitting discussing this. in 2025. The events that we are talking about began. at the very, very latest in the. in the 1990s, Jeffrey Epstein was abusing children.

He was first investigated by the police in 2004. Yeah, he signed a non-prosecution agreement 2007. Yeah. He was convicted by plea agreement for only one count in 2008. And this should all be ancient history. But instead, we have a life unfolding scandal in front of our eyes. that appears to, well, certainly engulfs the president and may. threaten his connection to his base. It is. I mean, you know what I say.

One thing you know, before, when you talked about, the names. Right. One of the things that makes it the Epstein story, sort of so complex. is that his swirl, a network of connections, were often involved with him for sort of different reasons, in a strange way. I mean, they were the people because, I mean, he was a crook, Jeffrey Epstein, you know, he was. he was either laundering money for people or hiding money for people. He was very, very good at hiding people's money. And he knew how to do that. And there are a lot of people, I think, whose money he hid.

And of course, once he'd done that, he they were in his, his thrall. So there were the people that were, you know, were going to him. because he knew they knew he could hide money. There were the people who were, you know, he was laundering money. There were the people who, you know, was sort of interested in his whole social stuff, you know, in. a kind of slightly campy society, where's the action kind of way? And then there was the, you know, the outright, you know, hardcore pedophile, you know, people who realized. that Jeffrey Epstein could provide them with underage girls, which he did.

So there's a lot of different layers of the people around Epstein. so that when there are some who say, look, I had nothing to do with this stuff, it's true, you know, because he had, a big network. I mean, when I mentioned, you know, the dinner party, I mean, they weren't all that for underage girls. I mean, George Stephanopoulos certainly wasn't, you know, I mean, there were people. who used to fraternize with Epstein who had nothing to do with those things. So it makes it sort of, hard to penetrate. And of course, for the untutored in kind of what social norms mean,

you know, for the MAGA base, it's like all these names are fancy. people who were pedophiles. So that's a perfect moment to ask Donald Trump, a man who absolutely would. somewhere, and Jeffrey Epstein's web, where do you place him in that web? Well, it was 15 years, wasn't it, that he was hanging out with Epstein. I think that I think if you look at the the video that you know, that very good. and, piece of video from I think it was CNBC. which shows them at a party together talking.

And actually, I think it's worth. getting a lip reading to just see if you can find out. exactly what they were saying to each other. But to me, the conversation was straight. Grab it by the pussy. It was a grab a by the pussy conversation. You know it was a hit. They're talking together, heads together. And you know that Trump is saying, you know, he's talking. And then you can see that. they're looking at women on the dance floor and saying, well, she's hot. And, you know, wouldn't you like to do sex with her? And, you know, so there was a clearly a bond of, you know, louche, go hunting kind of behavior.

So, yeah, I think he was very much involved with that, that sort of sauce scene with, with with Epstein. I don't happen to think that that little girls are the president's thing. You know, I, I really don't. I think that he's a guy who likes, you know, we know what he likes. He likes, you know, very sort of Playboy bunny types and and. and you know, the models and, you know, he's never shown a predilection for that. So I think that that's why it's complex. I think that he was hanging out with Epstein. because there was a lot of a lot of stuff going on.

Girls, rich people. I mean, all this, this, this, this thick texture of stuff that, that Trump is, you know, loves frankly, he loves that kind of scene. And it doesn't do him any good, in fact, that he used to hang out with him as. president, before he was president. I mean, he obviously doesn't want to talk about that. It's strange to me, actually, though, that he's become so agitated about these files now. I mean, why is he so agitated? Is it simply that they live for so long.

about what was there, you know, or his circle did that? He doesn't want to be revealed as there's really nothing here. It genuinely or, you know, all the people in those files. I mean, is he in the files a lot? And it just simply doesn't want to be there. Other people with whom he's entangled now, who he feels he owes something to. I mean, I did actually think of another possibility, which was like, is it more useful for Trump to know the names and other people don't? I mean, Trump is the king of leverage, right? Come from that. Come from him. It's great. Kompromat frankly.

So that could be one thing, you know, that that it that you know, is, is there to be explored. I do think, though, that he has not understood how this is such a kind of core. article of fate for MAGA for some reason that it's worse. The psychologist telling us is like they are obsessed with pedophilia, his base. I mean, it's the whole QAnon thing was all pedophilia. There was a whole thing about how Hillary Clinton. was supposed to be running a pedophile ring in a pizza store.

I mean, what it is about pedophilia in these people, I don't know, but they are obsessed and I don't think it is going to get dropped. And I think that what is interesting is that. the explosive tweet that he sent out on Tuesday about. this is like, it's it's, you know, yeah, I'm sick of this basically. You know, it's like an I don't care what my supporters. think about, you know, like if they don't want to be my supporters. Okay. I thought it was a very ill advised tweet on his part. because essentially it was like he's forgetting who owns him, right? And he's mad as hell now because they're supposed to be owned by him.

I mean, as we as we know, famously he said, I can walk down Fifth Avenue and. shoot somebody and my base would still love me. He finds this insurrection deeply aggravating. because they're supposed to just get in line and worship him, and they're not, you know, and they, on their part, have begun to suspect, I mean, as kind of his own said, I mean, with a sort of. we are finding ourselves agreeing with Candace Owens so and so. And he suddenly, suddenly says in her song about it's. almost as if Trump thinks his base is stupid.

And I'm thinking, you think? You think? I mean, he's always thought they were stupid. That's the whole point. That's that's been his his his superpower. He has known this, you know, he is. But he knows in his heart. you think he wants to hang out with a lot of those people? No, he doesn't, you know. So just in the last I, I think this is I think I've collated. 40 hours, that explosive tweet. He then followed that up. He talked about how people had bought into bullshit, that they are bad people, that they are weaklings, that they are stupid people.

And he sought to blame the Democrats who. very clearly are nowhere near. which MAGA, even MAGA are like, yes, you know, they're not buying. That is because, to be quite honest, I mean, half the people on those planes were Democrats. I mean, I don't think any Democratic president wanted to release, you know, any more names like Bill, governor Bill Richardson. and and the whole thing that Clinton was constantly being tarred with. And none of them wanted to go there at all. So this is a nonsense. And it's like something must have sort of hit him in the shower or something.

I can blame this on Democrats. He's too late. I mean, this has not been for him. A dexterous, sort of, you know, use of lying, which is usually very effective in his side. But it's not working this time. What what do you think? You've observed so many scandals, sagas over the years and reported on them so rigorously. What is it about this that sets it apart? And what is it that makes it so difficult for Trump to shake?

Well, I mean, I. think it's it's the names, obviously. It completely dovetails with the theory of his base. that there is this elite global power class. who have never, who have always sneered and had contempt for them. And Trump is supposed to be the person who understands them and their value. You know, he was the one who saw them, as it were. And indeed, if you not, Alexandra Pelosi's wonderful,

documentary about, this January, the Sixers has got some great interviews. with people who come at who the January 6th is, who came out of prison. long before they were pardoned. Who you know who, she asks, like, how do you feel about Trump now? We love him. I mean, the we don't care when he's he's our guy. He knows who we are. He speaks directly to us. They're kept saying, you know, he speaks to us. so suddenly it's like Trump's not speaking to them anymore. He's behaving as if they're fools. In fact, he said so.

He said, your weeklies were. So he's really misjudged this because he's basically telling them. he's treating them like the global elite that they hate so much, have always treated them. This is not good. This is not who that this is not that guy. This is not the president they thought he was going to be. And it's almost as if Trump has forgotten, who owns. him, essentially, and is turning into a president. who does things that they hate, like, you know, he's supposed to be a get he's done great for them on immigration.

You know, they always they love what he's done on that. But I mean, he's supposed to hate foreign wars and what's he doing. sending, you know, arms to Ukraine now and dropping bombs on on Iran. And, you know, this is not what he's supposed to be doing. So they're beginning to think what's happened to our guy. Is he our guy? And if they start to think he isn't, that's very dangerous moment. I think for Trump, because it could be a huge sort of pivot in his power, because this has always been his power that that they believe. that they have this intimate bond of sensible and value to him.

And if they think he's just, you know, kicking them to the curb and calling them. weaklings and just get on the train, because I'm telling you, I don't think that's going to play well. Do you sense this man you sat beside that was gregarious and hilarious? Do you sense he has the survival skills that he can come through this, or is this a is this as, as you put it, a moment that MAGA splits asunder? Well, I think ironically. And who would have thought it.

Because how many times in the last decade. and we all said, we'll never get away with this. I mean, all the way. This is the moment. This is a this is a moment. I mean, from the moment he said, you know, John McCain was like a loser. You know, it's like every time you thought, well, that's the end of his career. Never was. And to his supporters, that's Trump Derangement syndrome. Still, it's hard people capsize. So it's never he's he's I mean look at look at all the lawsuits he survived. I mean he was supposed to be crushed. by all of these, you know, lawsuits during the last 4 or 5 years. He won every one of them, or he got away with one of them.

And the ones he didn't win, it hasn't mattered. So he has been this Teflon creature, and he, you know, he's shot and he's. And, you know, I mean, it's like he's he's been absolutely untouchable. And who would have thought that it's this, you know, tawdry old scandal. that might be the tipping point kind of thing. any one of us would have said. if you were asked any of us, what is the thing that will finally be, you know, a bridge too far for the MAGA base to turn on him? Well, none of us would have said the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.

if you were if you were to go back to 2010, that moment that you. commissioned for I, I'll just repeat my point. There was a scandal foretold it. Almost all the details of what we know about Epstein are in this, these extraordinary, this extraordinary series. for what would have made it more resident, what would have made. people understand it, or is it something that. I think it was the moment it was too early.

You know, when you have sometimes when you're first, you're too early. People were not interested enough in him at that point. You know, I mean, there are plenty of stories about, you know, sleazy socialites. or whatever that you read, but, you know, you don't know them, you know, I think perhaps obviously, if I, you know, if, if, if it. if it had happened. when I was the editor of Vanity Fair, I could have probably made a bigger noise. with it. You know, don't forget the Daily Beast was a young and young, you know, sort of, you know, renegade.

site that had not, you know, been on the scene that long. So, you know, had it been published. in the New York Times, perhaps it would have had. But I sort of somehow think it wouldn't because people weren't. that interested in Jeffrey Epstein. I think what people were really interested in it, in the sort of story moved to that which was like, what was Bill Clinton doing on that place, you know? So then that became that story. of what do you one of the things that you, you wrote about on in your latest, fresh hell on Tuesday night is but Dan Bongino, yes,

who is an extraordinary avatar for what is happening inside MAGA. He's a deputy director of the FBI, a position. that in normal times would be held by somebody. with extraordinary all law enforcement experience. He is, admittedly a former police officer in Secret Service agent, but he's really known for being a podcaster and for expressing, robust right wing views would be one way to put it. And somebody who had absolutely fueled the Epstein fire.

But he is. No, I just want to, to highlight, the way you the way you express it, a tattooed snowflake, he was he was absent. Missing without leave, absent without leave from FBI headquarters setting these. Yeah. Absolutely pathetic, wasn't it? I mean, I think that he hates the job. I mean, he really has made no secret of that. because it's so much easier and much more lucrative. to be sitting in your basement bloviating and grabbing rumors.

out of the air and putting them out there and getting adulation for it and, you know, big bucks. than it is to be sitting, as he put it, in a in a white office. at 730 in the morning, like, hello, that's what most people do, that's, you know, and sort of working. I mean, he, you know, he said, oh, I don't deal. I don't deal in, in, in, rumors anymore. You know, I deal. And, you know, we have to deal in evidence. Yeah. You know, I guess what happens when you deal in evidence, I mean, you this rumor mongering goes out the window.

So he's in a very difficult position. because all of his life has been about undermining the FBI. And it's been about, you know, propaganda, absolute rubbish on the airwaves. And now he's in the, you know, the most kind of forensically, fact, you know, driven organization in, in the country, essentially, which is has to be about backing up what you say. So he's in a very difficult situation, and I think it is quite obvious he'd so much. rather be back in his basement bloviating and getting big checks is he isn't.

Obviously we don't know if he's going to stay or go. And I should say we are taping this a few enough hours. before it's going to go out on air that anything could happen. I think he's toast already. I mean, you know, in one thing one learns about Trump is you have to listen. very carefully to his endorsements, like his fulsome endorsements. and his fulsome endorsements of Michael Wolff's, you know, who. who was part of signal, Kate. And the next thing is, you know, wait a bit and then suddenly, bam, he's out of there. I think. But Dan is is is toast.

Because, you know, Trump says he was asked like, well, is he still in post? You knows he's stuck. And he goes like, yeah, I think he's doing well. I think that, yeah, I think he, you know, I actually I love to show he used to go. on his show a lot, you know, I mean, that's not an endorsement at all. It has a kind of sinister vagueness to it. And I think he's he's already decided that that he's going to go. And I don't think that I'm wondering. I will care much I think that he will go back to his basement.

Who who else are you? Who you looking at next as avatars for this scandal? Because we have had this parade of extraordinary names. Well, I think the banking piece of it hasn't had still hasn't really been. looked at as closely as it might. I mean, obviously Jesse Staley is the guy who knows more than anyone. Essentially, he was the banker at at JP Morgan, who then moved to but had to be head of Barclays Bank. But he was he managed, you know, he was the kind of the guy who managed.

the Epstein account, you know, and he also his emails are very incriminating. I mean, he had clearly had more. than a money managing relationship with with Epstein and his world. So there's a lot, I think, that he hasn't come up with. And I think he's not a dead story in that there might come a point. when he starts to sort of talk and talk and talk to get some change. in his predicament or whatever it might be. So I think the banking part of it is, is very, very interesting.

I mean, I think we have to have a sort of really, sort of an autopsy. on, on, you know, on the way that that Epstein died again. I mean, and then what is that what is the reason for these tapes being spliced together? I mean, somebody knows who did that. And so let's go back in terms of reporting and find out who's the guy. who spliced the tapes and who was he reporting to, and what was he asked to do? Because that's a very mysterious circumstance.

I think one of the things that you were absolutely right to put at the very heart. of that reporting back in 2010, and I, I hope that we continue to do it. The beast is the victims. Yeah, there are. According to the Department of Justice's allegedly final memo, as many as a thousand young girls were victimized. Yes. And. of those we know as, as as you, as you were just highlighting the at least three of them are dead. Yeah. By my side.

It's all causes. It's a tool of tragedy. It's a total tragedy. I mean, this is one of the things that absolutely appalled Conchita. when she went through those first police files. So you know that two of the girls, you know, were 14 years old who were shipped in from the Balkans. You know, I mean, this is really heinous. And I think that the Giuffre story remains Virginia Giuffre does remain. a very interesting story because she was at the heart of this case. You know, she's the one who brought down Prince Andrew. She was there for years with them.

She's the one who really sort of helped to finger, Julian as an accomplice. So her story, like she gets, she suddenly commits suicide in Australia. I mean, I know she'd been having a rough time, though, you know, marriage had gone, started bad. And her husband, she alleged, you know, was was was abusive towards her. But it's there's too many questions. again about that and what Virginia knew. I noticed that the sort of the day after her death, you saw people, two people carrying boxes out of her apartment.

And I thought to myself, well, I wonder what those I mean, to specific boxes. And you think, who, who, who made the decision to go in there. right away and take those two boxes out? There's more there than we know. And I think that story has got more legs in it. And for Donald Trump, what's your prediction? He's going to have. to come up with a better version than he is at the moment. You know, I mean, he has got to be made to understand this is not something he can blow off. So what does he do?

I mean, is he going to we don't know what's in those files. If there's nothing in the files, as he says, then why not release them? Yes, there is something in those files he does not want to see out there. And how he gets around that, I don't know. I think it's a really knotty issue for him, and I don't think it's going to go away. I think he will try to do things that will distract everybody. I know I think he can drop a bomb on Moscow, or he'll do anything he can to try to change the subject.

But I don't think this particular story can be expunged like he usually does. Well, Tina, thank you for coming and talking to us. Thank you for being part of it. To her setting up The Daily Beast, I'm just going to say again, the six part series is an extraordinary work. of journalism, and it stands not just a test of time. It shows the direction of travel. Tina, thank you for commissioning you. It was fun back here. Thank you for an extraordinary set of insights also into Donald Trump,

a man who I do. not think is going to be inviting you to dinner in the near future either. Afraid. I've done a lot of bridges and fresh hell, but I will say that the beast is alive. and I'm so, so thrilled at the current regime. I think it's finally got its kind of gusto back. You know, it's it's. always been a wonderful sight, actually, even in periods which has been less, you know, less good than others. But right now it's it's on fire. So. Well, congratulations to it. And thank you so much for giving us the vision and the DNA. Thank you. And we so much appreciate it and cannot wait to welcome you back.

When I think my much more distinguished co-host, Joanna Coles, will be asking the questions, Joanna and I go way back, so that'll be fun. Thank you know, by. Wow, what an extraordinary interview. Thank you to Tina Brown for bringing incredible insights, jaw dropping revelations, and some of the most incredible details. about what is undoubtedly the scandal of the century.

To keep up with the latest developments on Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. and that that scandal, subscribe to The Daily Beast. It could not be easier. We will keep you appraised. Just go to the WW dot the Daily beast.com. and you will be instantly up to date with what's happening. The other subscription that you must make is Tina Brown's Fresh Hell on Substack. It is the hottest thing on Substack right now, and I cannot wait to devour its next edition.

And finally, thank you to Joanna for letting me sit in her seat. as she would say the Beast. The Daily Beast Podcast is produced by Devin Roger Reno and Arnav Anderson. and edited by Jessie Miller.