E. Jean Carroll: My $83m Victory Over Smelly Trump | The Daily Beast Podcast

I don't understand how people. can be afraid of a fat. elderly man who wears apricot makeup, his hair done up like Tippi Hedren in The Birds. and sits in a courtroom. and moans and groans and complains and snorts. He belittled a little Harbor Esquire, his own attorney. He would spit as he was talking.

He he didn't smell so good. And the high point of Donald Trump in court. was the moment he stood up, because Robbie Kaplan. was giving the final argument. and she was asking the jury. how much it would take to make him stop. And she drove him so crazy. Joanna. He stood up in the courtroom.

and left. He stormed out. Well, a man is innocent. He doesn't storm our courtroom. He stays in fights. He turned tail, turned tail and stormed out the courtroom. He lost right at that second. He couldn't have looked more guilty. I'm trying to. Kohl's. This is the Daily Beast podcast we've been talking over.

the last few days about Michael Wolff suing the first lady. Well, here are two women who took on Donald Trump. One kept on winning. And now, almost at the end of the epic legal battle, I'm talking, of course, about Jean Carroll and her formidable lawyer, Robbie Kaplan. No time to waste. They're going to bring us up to speed with exactly where their cases are. and how tantalizingly close they are to that very large.

financial judgment against the president. that they were awarded by a New York court. Robert Kaplan and E Jean Carroll, let's get into it. And I guess the first question. I should ask really is where do your cases stand now? E Jean, can you give us an update? Because there's been so much news about them. And obviously Trump has been fighting them every step of the way.

But you keep winning. Where does it stand at the moment? Well, Joanna, I'm going to turn this over to Robbie. But I will just say, we've had a clean sweep. He has done nothing but lose, lose, lose one and two federal courts. We won a clean sweep in the appeals court. That's where we are. And Robbie will tell you what our situation is. Okay? Tell us what your situation is. And then, Robbie, will you add what your strategy for winning has been?

The easier question is where we are. And then I'll try to figure out what my strategy is. In terms of where we are as people. may or may not know, there were two trials pretty close in time to each other. The first trial was for sexual assault and for defamation. On that. In that case, we got a $5 million verdict. And the second trial, which was about three months later or so, was for, Donald Trump's original defamation a B gene that he made.

when he was president in the summer of 2019. And that was the big what I like to call the big kahuna verdict. That was 83 plus million dollars. on the first $5 million verdict. We are all the way through the appellate process except for one step, which is Donald. Trump gets an opportunity to ask the Supreme Court to take his case, that he is due to file his petition for that, I think I November 13th.

We will respond in kind. And I am quite confident that the Supreme Court. will not take that case for reasons I can explain. But there's nothing I mean, there's nothing in that case that's Scotus worthy. I feel like I'm talking side felt, but there really isn't anything. that merits, the Supreme Court's attention. Right. The second case is, are you always behind? It's almost a year behind. We won that case in the second Circuit. He has filed, as he did with the earlier verdict,

to ask the entire Second Circuit bench, or at least all the active judges. on the bench, to hear the case again as a whole. They are, we typically don't respond to that. They denied that last time. We expect them to deny that this time. But it took quite some time. Last time it took about 6 or 7 months. So we expect them to turn that down sometime. I think in the summer. It's my guess if that schedule stays the same. and then we are virtually certain that he will. then again, try to go to the Supreme Court on that verdict.

And that will take probably. all in another six, and we're probably about a year behind. Good Lord, it goes on and on and on, doesn't it? Will you explain to us. why do you think the Supreme Court is not going to add this to its docket? So, the first verdict, the first trial, the issue, the only issues that they have are evidentiary issues. So, first of all, in the main evidentiary issue is whether, the the district court judge, the trial judge was correct.

in admitting the testimony of a woman Donald Trump accosted. and assaulted on an airplane in 1979. There's most times, in court, you're not allowed to put on. what are called prior bad acts, as evidence in a case. But in this, in the circumstances of sexual assault, the federal rules were specifically amended. to allow for this kind of testimony so I could go into all kinds. of kind of ridiculous thing when you detail on it. But suffice it to say, the Supreme Court typically does not take.

those kinds of evidentiary questions, particularly in civil cases. And here the Second Circuit concluded that even if the court had been incorrect. in admitting her testimony, it was what's called harmless error, because we had another 10 or 11 witnesses and they had zero. So there's no way that she would that would have changed the result. Right? That's why I'm pretty confident they won't be so does that mean. if they turn it down, that's the end of the particular process.

for that case, and you finally get some money? Admittedly not the big money, but the 5 million, correct? The 5 million, believe it or not, has been sitting. And then an account held by the court, it's been earning interest in the meantime. And e.g., in the minute we reach the bitter end, Eugene will receive that money plus interest. Do you have any plans for that money yet? Well, I have plans for, the money.

I want to give it to everything Donald Trump hates. Well, that's a lot of things I know. I particularly want to give it, to women and getting, reproductive rights back. I mean, we've been set back for 50 now. It looks like the voting rights are being taken away from us. So that's also very important. And of course, Joanna, it changes second. by second where that money should go. And frankly, by the way, I may take a million of that.

And spend it on myself. Well, I think you should go back to Bergdorf Goodman. Yeah, back. Hello. Here. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I will enjoy about a million bucks of that, but I can't enjoy the money. What? I know the rest of the country is suffering. It is is not fun to look at the headlines. Well, I hope the two of you managed. to get a holiday out of it, too, because this has been a grueling case. And I wanted to ask you something.

I know when you set off on this case, it was it was before. Trump two and obviously Trump two. We're seeing him even more power crazed than Trump one. Everybody says how frightened. people are of Donald Trump and how frightening he is. The two of you have one against him. How did you manage to, ignore the anxiety. and the fear of taking on someone as powerful as Donald Trump?

Stick to a winning strategy. See, I don't understand. how people can be afraid of a fat. elderly man who wears, apricot makeup, his hair done up like Tippi Hedren in The Birds. and sits in a courtroom and moans and groans. and complains and snorts when the Joanna.

When the jury got a load of him, they were mesmerized. You have never seen anything like it. He never sat still. And he talked the entire time within earshot of the jury. He belittled, a little Harbor Esquire, his own attorney. He would spit as he was talking. He he didn't smell so good. And the high point of Donald Trump in court.

was the moment he stood up, was steam coming off his back. and hot air blowing out his ears. because Robbie Kaplan. was giving the final argument. and she was asking the jury. how much it would take. to make him stop, and she drove him. You think Robert Kaplan's afraid of Trump?

No. She turned it around. She drove him so crazy. Joanna. He stood up in the courtroom. and left. He stormed out. Well, a man is innocent. He doesn't storm out. He stays in fight. He turned tail turned tail and stormed out the courtroom. And he will. He lost right at that second. I mean, he looked he couldn't have looked more guilty.

But that's how frightened Robbie Kaplan is. Then and, there's really, there is a theory out there. now, I Trump's theory is he's a myth now. he's a myth. And the people around him who believe in this myth, who are giving him the power, I'm not so sure. I just think he's an old fat guy, and he's doing a lot. He's the most powerful man on the planet.

There's no question. No question. Nobody is more powerful. And he's super smart. Nobody has been elected president twice. Like Trump, you can't be dumb and do that. So we are contending, yes, with an enormous intelligence and an enormous amount of power. But we are not frightened of it. We're not frightened. I've known you both for a long time. And, Robbie, it's hard to imagine that you are frightened of anybody. And especially in the courtroom. You are fearless. In the courtroom.

You are like a machine in the courtroom. Yes. Yes. So what was what was your strategy? Dealing with someone who, as Eugene says in the courtroom, is mesmerizing. and he's deliberately concocted himself like this and an EEG. And I think your observation of him as a myth is brilliant, actually, because people respond to the myth. as opposed to the actual 79 year old frail old man. Robbie, when you were a lawyer, what is the psychology.

you're you're adopting to go after someone like this? So the whole difference, you put your finger on Joanna, the whole difference here is the courtroom versus everything else. So in the courtroom, we had a very, very experienced, very stern judge, Judge Louis Kaplan. Not my relation, not my mentor, but a very highly respected judge who you don't want to mess with.

In short, we had rules that apply. People can only say certain things that they're if they're consistent. with the rules of evidence, there's things that you can't say or do. You have to wait for a question or to answer the question, etc.. And we had a jury, frankly, in the first case. that wasn't a New York City jury at all. We had no one from New York City on that jury. There were all people from north of Westchester County, I think one from Westchester County, and we had to convince them unanimously, nine jurors each time.

And so I believe that what made the difference is only. the facts could come out in court. We have ways of making sure the facts come out. There's no I there's no fake movies, there's no fake documents. Everything has to be authenticated. And when the jury heard the evidence, there wasn't very hard. And I just do what I always do. I just kept my head down and tried to case the way I've always learned. how to try a case and try to keep the noise out as much as possible.

I should say that in my closing argument, the second trial, he was sitting. probably about seven feet to my left, and I just made sure I didn't look his way. I only knew he left the courtroom when the judge announced it, and I was looking very much at the jury. And why didn't you look his way? You want to provoke him? I didn't want there to be any kind of unnecessary noise in the courtroom. I wanted the jury. The jury was very, I think, understood, really understood. the importance of the dignity, of a courtroom and the respect.

that must be accorded to the courts and to the proceedings in a courtroom. And I didn't want him to be able to use any of his tricks, for lack of a better word, any of his strategies to mess with that. How fascinating. He did a few times, and the jury definitely didn't like it. Well, what kind of things did he do? So I'll give you one example. Eugene probably has better ones because I know they're in her book. But, I remember during jury selection, Judge. Kaplan kind of conducts jury selection a little bit like speed dating.

So you have. all these people in a courtroom, and they're asking a series of questions, and they're supposed to kind of raise their hands, etc.. And one of the questions was, does anyone believe that the 220. 20,020 election, 2020 election was stolen. and no one in the courtroom raised? Their hand is up for Donald Trump. sitting in that what's called the well of the courtroom. So I mean, that was kind of an easy example, but I'm sure the jury took note. There's no question they did. So, Gene, what for?

You were the most memorable moments. of an arduous, process in in court? Both in both cases, some of them, didn't happen for them. to have happened after trial, when Donald Trump. would hold a press conference and then give his version of everything. that went on in the courtroom that day, two different worlds. And he would tell the world, I'm the one who's suffering.

I'm the one who should get the damages. It what? It was a high comedy. of his world against the world and truth and facts. Oh, quite well. The most memorable was when. the jury came back during the second trial. We had no idea, Trump was not in the courtroom. He could feel it was not going to be good.

He was playing golf. Correct? Yeah. What if he, This is the second trial he he left in a motorcade. Speed it away from the courtroom. As the jury was being called back. And the judge, Judge Kevin, when everybody came back from the Capitol, into the, courtroom. And Judge Kaplan had read the riot act to people in the courtroom. Yeah. The decorum will be maintained at all time. There will be no jumping up. There will be no shouting.

There will be no running for the door. He had all sorts of rule. So everybody was, you know, pretty tense waiting because the jury was there. He said, madam, for a woman, have you reached a verdict? And she said, yes, she had reached a verdict. And Joanna, when she stood up and we saw that she was following it, she was, very attractive blond, wearing a rose colored sweater. She had paid such intense attention to every word.

You and I were holding hands, and we squeezed each other hands a minute. She she she said. Yes, your honor, we have reached adjourn. He said, you'll hear to Andy the clerk. She handed the decision to Andy the clerk. Andy the clerk opens it up, reads it, frowns, shakes his head, folds it back up, and then hands it to Judge Kaplan. And Judge Kaplan opens it up. and his eyebrows.

rise up towards his like hairline, and he frowns and he says, Naomi, follow me. What does the M stand for? Wow, wow. And the M obviously stood for. And she said, million, your honor. And, that was a moment. I mean, my, left my body, my,

I, as I say, I felt like, Peter Pan, who flies around the ceilings, and quite frankly, I've never come down from that. Joanna, that when was so enormous and so powerful. Not for me, not for Robbie, but for everybody in the country. who had sort of lost hope that any he could ever be. beaten and, and Robbie. decimated, just decimated him. And so.

And we're still feeling the good the good victory of that. It's happened and we've proved Robbie prove. And I prove that Trump can be beaten. He can be beaten. And that number was 83 million. Correct. 83.3, 83.3 million. So I have a saying behind my computer. I was so nervous at the time, I did the math wrong so that I would fix it. And I'm sure you I hope you think about it. Last thing at night, just as you're falling asleep and you think about it.

first thing in the morning as you wake up. Again, I wanted to ask you. I mean, one of the reasons that people are very frightened. about taking him on is that, he's vindictive. He comes after people. He's certainly done that to the two of you. And certainly people have lost their livelihoods. over people who work for the government and the DOJ have lost their jobs over it. You also lost your job over this. And and when I was talking to people about what questions to ask you, one,

former model came up with a question which I thought was very good. What was worse? Being, sexually assaulted by Donald Trump. in a changing room at Bergdorf Goodman or losing your job. at a woman's magazine for having the bravery to take him on. Key question. But Joanna, may I just say I'm not the only one. I've lost my job. We're not the only ones who should have been there.

for every single person in this country should be afraid of losing their job. Every single one. Think of how many people are out of work right now. You've flown lately, right? Did you see the TSA people are coming? They all have families at home. At home they have no money. I don't know how they're feeding their kids. They're they are they're being pleasant, saying, you know, put your bag here. and the and the, air traffic control people,

they're working day and night and they're not getting any money. And think of everybody's lost their jobs. They think what the tariffs are that everybody is. should be just as frightened. As for Elle magazine. Fiery, a woman. with a popular advice column firing that woman. for accusing a powerful man of sexual abuse.

is, It was so astonishing that when they called to tell me, Joanna, I thought they were inviting me to the Christmas party. I'm thinking, oh, boy, what am I going to wear? You know, that's how I was thinking. So it was devastating to lose a job. It's, I didn't know who I was or what I stood for or anything. I, I was depleted. It takes away, you know, it takes away.

Well, it takes away. It took away everything, and they. they claimed it was for sort of business reasons. Right. But in fact, your column was one of the most read, regular features in the magazine. And also, it was supposed to be a magazine that not only. was about fashion and beauty, but also empowering women. Yeah, yeah, it was it was great art and politics. And you know, leading. an adventurous life, was a thinking woman's fashion magazine.

You talk about the devastation of losing your job. What was the timing? How soon were you fired after you had brought the case against Donald Trump? That was the tipping point, I believe. And of course, I can't see into the minds of Elle magazine. But I believe they were okay with the accusation. But when Robby and I brought suit, it was, what, November 7th or November 8th?

Robby Versary. I got the call for what I thought. for the Christmas party was December 12th. So about four weeks after, we're after the lawsuit. The lawsuit caused an upheaval in the press. And here's how prescient Elle was. They were the first Joanna. to bend the knee to Trump. and put it in context.

You know, before, every day before the Ivy League started, been. before the big corporations started to bend the knee. Elle magazine takes first prize. for being the first to bend the knee. I hope it was wearing a very nice panty hose when it was bent, but they bent their knee big time, big time. And then of course, they said it was because here's what they said. They didn't have the pages for you,

Jill, as a nothing excuse, you know. What does that mean? It means nothing, right? They literally said they didn't have the pages for your column, but she said, well, they changed the trial. Did they say that they were mad that the book was first excerpted. in New York magazine? That was the reason they changed their mind. They changed their story. I think that was aggravating to them. But, Joanna, as you know, Elle magazine never would have run. that excerpt that New York magazine ran.

They would never run it. I worked for the parent company, Hearst, though. In fact, I had left, I think, 18 months before, before this actually happened. But it does seem doubly ironic that you're working for a magazine. that's about empowering women, and they let you go the minute. you file suit, for a sexual assault case against the president. But everybody's now bending the knee. Germans. Not unusual. They were just the canary in the cave.

Well, you guys have not bent the knee. You've got a strategy that's won, and the case is proceeding very slowly. It seems like to to those of us watching on the outside. Yeah. So. So, Egan, you've now done a documentary. Ask Gene. When are we likely to see that? I know it premiered at the Telluride Film Festival. Where will we get to see it? And it just won best documentary at the, little Rock, film Festival. Congratulations.

It'll it'll debut in spring. So I'm looking forward to seeing that. And obviously, you wrote a book about your experiences, too. Boy, did I write a book. And what was fabulous. Oh, first of all, Robbie Kaplan is, you know, it's dedicated to Robbie. But if you notice, Joanna, he did not say a peep. For the last five months since that book has been out. immediately hit the New York Times bestseller list. It was an instant bestseller across the country, and not a peep.

from Donald Trump. So he's finally learned his lesson that every time he defames you, that's another $5 million catching. So you, Robbie Kaplan. So, Robbie, I wanted to ask you as, as a very experienced and successful, long practicing lawyer, what do you think when you look at the Department of Justice,

now headed by Pam Bondi, is the number one top branch. It's the number two. And now Lindsay Halligan put in, in Virginia as the US attorney. You've got a Lina Harper that you guys were opposite. during your case, who's now, practicing, I think is the US attorney in new Jersey. Have you come. across anything like this in your lifetime, where the DOJ is. basically staffed up with the president's.

former personal lawyers? So the short answer is no. And the reason the answer's. no, Joanna, is because it's never happened in American history. It's not uncommon for the president to appoint to high positions. in the Department of Justice people who he knows and likes respect. But they all in the past have had incredibly good qualifications. for the job. And to have someone as the U.S.

attorney in DC who only practiced insurance law. or Miss Harbor as the acting, I'm not even sure she's acting. I think they gave it another word. U.S. attorney in New Jersey, who has zero experience again, in doing criminal cases or trying criminal cases or anything like that. It's pretty. I think it's fair to say most lawyers like me are pretty shocked by it all. I say most, I'd say almost every lawyer is pretty shocked by the, And what do you think it portends for the Department of Justice?

Nothing good. I'm hopeful that there will be, at some point, a realization that we have to go back to the old ways. The idea, for example, that the president. would bring complaints against the two indictments. that were handed down against him and then have the people he picked. decide to give him $230 million in compensation, which, by the way, is, what, four times more than your verdict?

Is astounding. No one. There's not anyone in the first day of the first year of law school. would think that that was a proper thing or okay thing to do. A lot of the rules. This is true in England, too. A lot of the rules in our system are unwritten. It's actually surprising how much of it is unwritten. It's just the custom and the principles and kind of the rules that we live by. And so we're going to have to similar what happened after Nixon. We're gonna have to put them down in writing from now on,

because no one would have thought that any president would even dare to do this. And we now have one who has. And do you think it's likely that he will get the go ahead to receive that. basically quarter of $1 billion in compensation? I don't know how to answer because based on everything. I've learned, everything I've read, everything I've done in my career, everything I've I teach my students at law school. The answer would be no. But I can't, in good faith, sit here and tell you the answer is absolutely no.

A lot of things where I would have told you never would have happened. have already happened. Every time I hear a siren outside, which I apologize for outside. my window here, I keep expecting to see ice trucks coming down the road. Todd Blanch famously went down to interview Glenn Maxwell, who as we know was Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime, got, sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking, and was then immediately moved to a much lower.

security prison in Texas, where she has a sister living in Texas. What did you think of that decision? Putting aside the switch in prisons, which itself is pretty shocking, the idea that the deputy attorney general often called dad, which is the second highest position in Department of Justice, went down after a conviction to interview. a person who the convicted of sex trafficking is astounding.

There would be no. reason for the deputy attorney general to do that. And even if there had been a reason for someone to speak tour, it surely wouldn't have been the deputy attorney general. who was really acting more in his in the capacity as Trump's. personal attorney, rather than a member of the Department of Justice, is. Again, it's just another example. If you told me 5 or 7 years ago that any of this would have happened, I would have told you you were nuts. So what do you think that people can do about it?

Is there a sort of professional association of lawyers. who can actually have an impact here? How do people respond? Well, so the one thing that's already happened, at least among lawyers, is, you know, Trump went after a bunch of law firms. and, a bunch of the law firms who he threatened actually. sued him, or doing issue orders against sued him and all that. You they want all those cases? They're now on appeal. I'd be shocked. Just. I can't say I'd be shocked if any of those decisions were reversed.

And I'd be shocked at the Supreme Court took them, because I think the Supreme. Court understands this is like basic stuff. And you can't, interfere with a lawyer's ability to practice law. So I think the lawyers have generally stood up. The law, the bars I've stood up, the district court judges, God bless them. They have all stood up. You had a Trump judge saying about Portland. that the facts were inconsistent with what Trump was saying.

The facts were the legal system is holding up. The problem that we have is we have a Supreme Court. that takes these cases on what's called the shadow docket, and issues rulings, overturning stays that the lower courts have put in place without any reasoning. And that's creating a lot of, shall we say, consternation among, among the judges each. And I wanted to ask you, Virginia Giuffre's book has come out this week. She sadly, committed suicide earlier this year.

Have you spent any time with the victims from the Jeffrey Epstein case? I've spent a great deal of time with the, women who have accused. Donald Trump there. Let me remind, your listeners and viewers, two dozen. women, two dozen women, incredible women who have accused Donald Trump, sexual abuse, sexual assault, you know, name calling, etc., etc. two dozen.

Nobody in the GOP believes that now they love to believe. the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Gillum. They love that. Why? Because they are young. They were young. and they were not career women, and they were virginal. and they were silent. And so they are believed. Virginia Giuffre's life.

is so heartbreaking. and so overwhelmingly horrible. I mean, her own father trafficked her. to his best friend. It is so appalling. And of course, when she shows up at Nero Lago, who do Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump get into a snit about? That cute girl Jeffrey Epstein stole her from Trump.

It is despicable. And that this man was elected president of the United States makes me sick. I can't, it's very hard, to think about who we elected president. when everybody is in such a. such a, you know, fuss about Epstein. Look who is in the white House. You know, Epstein's gone and dead.

And by the way, he may be the one who brings Trump down. It may be Epstein. Do you think that the moment where women were gaining. traction has has just vanished at this point? Yeah. That's not that. It's just gone backwards. It's really the undertow. Just pull this up right out to see you again. Really. We have it's no call anymore at work. For black women and women of color, it's even worse. And for poor women who are trying to educate their children.

and educate themselves, it's, it is so now difficult, to put food on the table or to get an education. It is it's like way back before the 1950s were back in the 17, 1600s. It's it's appalling. It, but listen. The three of us know. serious women. have the ability to get it all back.

And we're not going to sit still for this. The three of us know how much power a woman and many of your listeners. and many of your viewers know the power of a serious woman. And so. I think you better vote, bitches. That's all I got to say. Well, it's also very interesting that it takes two determined. middle aged women to take on Donald Trump completely unafraid.

and and to win, to win your cases and to keep on winning your cases. I'm 82, for God's sakes. I'm an old lady and I beat Donald Trump. If I can beat him, anybody can beat him. with with Robbie Kaplan at her side, of course. So, no. Yeah. He can be beaten. We are live. Our houses. Get off our lazy asses and go outside. You may you may be 82 in June, but in dog years you're way younger than.

Well. I'm also thinking, you know, you had another, I mean, I was being middle age. Okay. Senior woman, in East Windsor, when you won the right for gays to finally get married. Robbie, do you think if you were bringing that case now. with this current Supreme Court that would pass? No. If we were to bring that challenge today to what was. the so-called Defense of Marriage Act, I do not think we could win.

by wrote before this court. The more important question, though, the more pressing question, is whether there are five votes on this court to overturn. Windsor and Obergefell on that. I'm more optimistic. I don't think they have five votes to do it. They for sure have two. They have Alito and Thomas. They pretty much shut it. But I don't think they have five. I think it's very hard to overturn. the reasonable expectations of millions of Americans and kids and families.

So maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think I am. I don't think they will overturn marriage equality. Well, there's clearly. a lot of anxiety in the gay community about that being a possibility. So that's a note of optimism from you that you don't think they will do that? Yeah, I think they're going to chip away at it. It doesn't already in terms of religious freedoms, to not treat. LGBT families the same as three families that they will do. through a religious, free exercise clause of the First Amendment.

But I don't think they will say. no more marriage equality or no more in the United States. I just don't think that they have the stomach to do that. Or let me put it this way, five of them had the stomach to do that. Okay. So Gene, final question to you, because I think of you as well as do. lots of people. who write to you on your Substack, because you took Ascii Gene from Al. and rehabilitated it on Substack, where I know it's very popular. And. you anybody listening to this or watching this should definitely check it out.

If we are going to. get off our asses, as you say, and get out there and, join protest or whatever important question, what should we wear? Oh, thank you for asking, Joanna. Dude, see what I got here? Look what I'm wearing. The paper clip. Here's what the paper. The paper clip holds things together. It can pick locks. It can open up handcuffs.

You straighten it out. It's a lethal weapon. The paper clip was a sign of resistance. to Nazi occupation in the Second World War. And guess who won the Second World War? So the paper clip is a signal, Joanna, to people who resist. Trump, it's a signal to one another. As soon as we are, all can see how many people there are resisting Trump.

That's where the courage comes from. And that's where we say, oh, I'm not alone. So I want everybody to put on your paper clip, show where you stand. You don't have to do anything. You don't even have to make a sign. Just do the one simple act of putting on a paper clip. I saw one at a stoplight outside of Hackensack. Tap on a young man and we're both at the stoplight. He looks over at me and he goes like this.

I looked. It's a young man wearing a paper clip. So I knew right then he's a fellow resister. So, if you can do one thing, it's cheap. It's everywhere. You got 400 of them in your desk drawer or in the bottom. They put on a paper clip. And I think it bodes well for the country. I think we've had a tipping point. I think more people don't like Trump now than like Trump. So we can signal to each other,

we will grow in numbers, and then we'll just, throw the GOP out of the House, in the Senate, in the midterms. Thank you very much. Okay, so you've got it. You've heard it here first fools eat accessory is the paperclip clip. Carol and Robbie Kaplan, thank you very much. for your work defending women. against men of violence. And please come back on the podcast, the minute,

you hear that the Supreme Court isn't going. to take the case on the docket and you get your first check, we want to know exactly what you're going to be spending it on. We want to see the receipt when you will go out for cocktails, and we'll decide. Excellent, excellent. All right, guys, thank you very much for joining us, for joining us. And for anybody reminder who wants to read Eugene and has questions for her. Go to her Substack.

Ask Eugene. Well, I hope I have Jean Carol's energy when I'm 83. She looks like a rock star. She sounds like a rock star. She acts like a rock star. And I very much hope that she finally gets after all these years, some money, both to enjoy herself and, I hope, take her lawyer on holiday, but also to fund all those causes. that she wants to fund and to grab back some of the rights.

that women, incredibly, in 2025, have lost. Thank you for joining us. If you have been, don't. forget we're independent media, so we appreciate your support. Please subscribe. Press subscribe button. Join the Daily Beast community. It's really fun. We have extra content for you and you have access to me. and Michael Wolf and various other members of our Daily Beast staff. I want you to give. a belated also, thank you to Hugh Daugherty.

for holding Fort while I was off for a few podcasts. He did an epic job, despite his Scottish accent, which. many of you were very flattering about. I know he sometimes feels a bit self-conscious about it. I don't know why, but many of you jotted notes. and comments down to say how much you enjoyed hearing from him. He's an epic member of our team, so don't forget if you haven't yet. been this week, as our First Lady would order. you beast and a shout out to our top tier BBC members Karen White,

Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and Free DC. And thank you to our production. team, Devin Roger Reno, Anna Von Urs, and Jesse Millward.