Andrew Cuomo's NYC Comeback Bid

- Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Joanna Cole's Chief Content Officer of the Daily Beast. - And surprise, I'm Isaac Mizrahi, Chief Content Officer of Filling In for Samantha Bee, who I might lock in a closet for a few weeks. 'cause I love you and I wanna be on this show a lot. - Good, well, you're very, you're very, very welcome. 'cause Sam is on the road this week for her live. How to Survive Menopause. And Isaac was kind enough to fill in.

- And I have already survived menopause, so. - Oh, you have? - I'm living proof. - I was gonna say, it looked very good. - Sam is in the throes of it and I have survived already. - Okay, good. Good, good, good. Well, I'm very glad you survived it. And I have no idea if I went through menopause or not. 'cause I'm British and we just take no notice. of anything like that. - Right, right, right. - We simply increase the amount of alcohol we're drinking. - Well, I mean, that's a cure-all, darling. - I think so. I went from one to Keyletter 2. - So didn't notice the thing. - I don't know if you've upped your Xanax prescription.

recently, but I have. I take, well, like one and a half amount. of as much Xanax as I used to take since November 5th. - Because of what's going on? - Yes, because of what's going on in the world, yes. - Okay, so let's just fill everybody in. The last time we did something like this together. other than when you were a guest on the podcast last fall. was we did Project Runway All Stars together. - Yes, we did. - And then we did an after show of Project Runway All Stars. Do you remember where we just sat?

- Of course I remember. I love that you think, what about like that grand. that I don't remember? Actually, this morning I called Joanna. as if she doesn't have 15 assistants. and I said, darling, I'm lost. Can you please tell me how to get here? - That was very sweet. - No, because it was 1560 Broadway. and I went to Broadway and there was no 1560 Broadway. It's actually between seventh and sixth. So darling-- - At least in between seventh. and sixth, I might have showed you the wrong street. - Except the address is 1560 Broadway,

not 1560 Seventh Avenue. - True, and I get confused about Broadway and Seventh Avenue. and may I add that you said to me, I don't have my driver this morning. - (laughs) I don't, I don't have my driver this morning. and you know, I'm a little grand. - You're very grand. - Darling, think of me as the Andre Leon Talley of the Jews. and then you have, you're starting to understand. - I want everybody to be able, in fact, we should raffle off four people,

a drive with you in your car. - Let's do it. - 'Cause you have a custom interior BMW, I believe. It is so spectacular. - Mercedes. - A Mercedes, sorry. - Yes, darling. - I knew it was German. It's just the most magnificent, it's like being in a living room, your car. - Well, really, I mean, I have to tell you, it was just like one of the main kind of, by the way, can I just say the other thing? - I think it's 'cause you decorate it. - Wait, recently I had something on Instagram. about toasters and it got a lot of people watching. these things about, watching. And then I started getting a lot of toasters.

from different companies. And so now I'm like, I think I'm gonna do a post. about Maybach's and see if I get some Mercedes-Benz's. - Oh, what a good idea. - 'Cause maybe they'll say, I'm not kidding, maybe they'll send me some Mercedes's. - So what have you done with the toasters there? 'Cause you can really only use one toaster at a time. unless you've got a lot of people staying for the weekend, in which case you need a lot of toasters. - I do agree, I do agree. And by the way, some of the toasters are not great. Some of them are great. I probably will be doing like a revisiting of toasters. - Okay, so I'm going to confess, I'm obsessed by toast.

It's a British thing. - Me too. - I eat it all the time. - I love toast. - What? What kind of toaster do you have? - Well, I have now, I have several hundred. But I do have this wonderful thing. I think it's a, oh, it's a smeg. - Oh, I have a smeg toaster. - The smeg, except the thing I went on about. was the fact that the slots are made for like square bread, which I don't know about you, but I don't use wonder bread, okay? Or Japanese fabulous square bread. You know that square bread that you can get in Japan. and also you can get now in Japanese markets?

- Only you would know about square Japanese bread. - I love it, but I don't use it as regularly. as I use, for instance, like, I don't know, a boule that's been cut up. - Of course, from Le Van. - Or from Ciderella, or from, what is it called? Bread alone, bread alone. That's a very good brand of bread alone. - Oh, that's very good. Bread alone is very good. Although I have a Le Van bakery around the corner from me. So I get the boule there and then I cut it myself. - Do you? - Yeah, 'cause I don't like the thickness of the slice. They cut, I like to do my own. - Labor intensive. - I have the smeg toaster, which is the Union Jack.

- Okay, oh, with the Union Jack on it. - Yes, so good. - That's a lot going on in your kitchen. 'Cause I like white things or stainless things. or white things or stainless. - I have the white smeg kettle, but I do have a Union Jack toaster. It's just a little flash of color. - Little something, just a reminder of once we come. - Exactly, the old country. - From whence we come. - From whence we come. - From whence we come. All right, so we have a special guest today. - Yes, we do. - But before we tell people who it is, could be just,

why didn't you design the space suits. for Lauren Sanchez and her gal pals? - Oh, well, you know what? By the way, that is a hilarious thing. that they just did, right? But who was that? That was like, who did that? Who sponsored it? Should we say who sponsored it? - I think Blue Origins, from Stutt. - Okay, I don't even know what that is. - Blue Origin is Jeff Bezos's space suit. - Space company that is in competition with SpaceX. They're both trying to revolutionize space travel. - Got it, okay, well, I don't know. I found it a little bit sort of,

did you find it a little bit tone deaf. about women or something? Just a little bit. - I thought it, I hated the way they presented it. - I don't know, maybe. - I mean, it was a girlfriend's getaway for 11 minutes, wasn't it? - Please. - The first all-girl blah-blah in space, really? - Yeah. - And it was 15 minutes. - Not even, not even 15 minutes. - Well, they all came down and literally kissed the ground, which I understand, but I mean, come on, that's dramatic. - I kissed the ground after I'd taken a jet-bleed flight. - Me too. - I'm just like, miracle, miracle that we've landed.

- Well, anytime I land back in Kennedy Airport. or LaGuardia Airport, I kiss the ground. - Well, you can kiss LaGuardia Airport. more than you can kiss JFK in access. - Yes, it's so true. - So much better than it used to be. - And yes, we have Andrew Cuomo to thank for that, don't we? - We do, and he does that whilst a segue. - Was that a segue? Are you a segue? - That was a very good segue. - I love a segue. - I love a segue. - We do, we have the former governor who's here. because he's running for mayor of New York City. - Wow, yes. - So now I have an intro to read. - Okay. - Which is that he's running for mayor,

and given that he's already had the most senior job. in New York politics, is he slumming it, or is he looking for a platform. for which to run for president in 2028? - Boom, mic drop. - We have so much to discuss, Isaac. We have so much to discuss. Are you a recovering Cuomo sexual? Do you remember that whole moment? - Yes, I mean, listen, he could get it. He could still get it actually, you know, right? - What does that mean? - That means he's fetching looking. I think he's a good looking guy.

I think Andrew Cuomo's a good looking guy. - And that helps in politics. - Yes, yes I do. I think it helps in politics. I remember a long, long time ago, remember John F. Kennedy Jr. had a magazine called George. - Yeah, of course, of course. - And he commissioned me and Cindy Crawford, and we went into his office and he showed us these slides. We kind of did this hilarious thing. about how politicians are supposed to dress, you know, in those days, this was like the 80s or the early 90s, and it said, please, you know, if you're a Democrat,

wear this, if you're a Republican, or blah, blah, blah, don't cut your hair this way. Don't, blah, blah, don't wear a tie. I mean, it was a whole list of things. that would help you or hinder you as a politician. - Okay, well, you can give him dress and slide advice. - Well, no, I think that's all gone. I think it's a whole new thing. - Well, it was interesting to see the president. of El Salvador meeting Donald Trump in a kind of t-shirt. I mean, he looked like a tech entrepreneur. He did, I know he said he was the coolest dictator, but I actually think he looked like a tech entrepreneur,

which is what everybody wants to look like now. - And by the way, somehow they didn't ask him. if he owned a suit. - No, why was that when they asked Lensky? - Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They didn't ask him if he owned a suit or whatever. Right, I just thought that was appalling. Well, everything about that is appalling, right? - Well, you can ask former governor Cuomo. what style tips he needs from you. - Either that or what he's gonna do. to help the whole situation in the entire world. Forget about style, yes, style. Style is a cornerstone, I think, of any good campaign.

So we'll check in about that. - You're absolutely right about it. - That's where it starts. If you get the style right, you can go on to solving the world's problems. - Well, let's hope he can solve New York City's problems. - That's right, let's start with that. And we're now joined by a politician. who hardly needs any introduction, former New York governor, Andrew Cuomo. Born and raised in Queens, Cuomo served as a governor. for a little over a decade until resigning in 2021.

before near certain impeachment. due to sexual harassment allegations. It was a dramatic end to a career. that produced the complete overhaul of LaGuardia Airport, the glorious Moynihan Station, an extension to the Second Avenue subway, and the governor, Mario Cuomo Bridge, stretching over the mighty Hudson, named of course after the governor's father, who was himself a governor. Prior to that, Governor Cuomo served as attorney general.

of the state of New York. and as the housing and urban development secretary. under President Bill Clinton. He's now running for New York mayor, or is he actually running to lead the Democratic Party. in 2028? Governor Cuomo, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. I have a question. I'm going to start off, can I? The campaign, is it going better or worse. than you expected it to go? It's actually going better than I expected it to go. There's more of a uniformity. among the areas of concern with New Yorkers.

They are just deeply concerned. about the trajectory of the city, the condition of the city, public safety, quality of life disorder, and that is a unifying theme. Right, quality of life. Yes. The thing that is so interesting, I think, is that we know that the data shows. that crime is going down, right? But it feels, this was Sam's point, and she's very disappointed not to be here this week, but Sam's point is it feels really demoralizing.

to live in New York at the moment. It's dirty. There's, I come out on, every day there is a homeless person. or a drug addict on my stoop. I run the gauntlet of people on fentanyl. with their pants down their legs, getting into the Broadway and Lafayette subway. I've got so many questions for you, but how do you actually clear up the problem. of the mentally ill and the drug addicted, who are literally living on the streets. and impacting the quality of life for everybody else?

Yeah, let's just separate that a little bit if we can. Crime is going down. First of all, they're not really talking about crime, per se, right? The conditions you discussed, the more quality of life, a sense of disorder. There is a sense of not feeling safe, actually. So that's, I think they'll talk, yes, not feeling safe, which is actually different than the crime statistics. Now crime statistics, they don't believe anyway, because the crime statistics are opposite.

what they see and feel as you just expressed. Also, the crime statistics are mixed. Crime is down from when? Well, from its highest point. Okay, but my frame of reference. is not from the highest point, right? My frame of reference is before COVID. So it's not necessarily from the highest point. And even within the statistics, rapes are way up, right? Random assaults, which are mentally ill people,

attacking people. And these horrific crimes. that I'm a lifelong New Yorker, Isaac, you've never seen someone burned on a subway car, right? There was an almost gothic crime last week. with someone who died on the subway, riding around for three hours on the R train, dead. And then someone coming on, rifling through their pockets and raping them. But you know, just to throw this in there, as a lifelong New Yorker who has been riding the subways.

since I'm 10 years old, it was squalid in like the 1970s. It was much worse than you can ever imagine it to have. Really, now it's not as, I don't think it's as dangerous as it was. when I was a kid. Well, I'm sure that's true, but it feels worse than it did 10 years ago. Right. That's not the frame of reference for most people, right? Right. They remember 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and this did not happen during that period of time. And by the way, even 50 years ago,

you never saw a dead person on a subway. getting robbed and raped. You never saw a person on a subway getting burned to death. I can't believe you even have to say it out loud. It's so strange. Yeah, so, and just the bizarreness of these situations. So how do you, how do you, darling, how do you like fight, how do you fight that? How do you, what are some of the things you might?

Well, and before you ask that, let's just go back to, so you were governor for 10 years. You've had the best job in politics in New York. Why do you want to be mayor? This is a difficult thing to solve. And why would you want to do it? You've already had the big job. Yeah, well, it's funny. I wasn't planning on doing it. I've done my public service. I had done eight years in the Clinton administration. I had done attorney general. I had been governor. My father, I honored my father's legacy. My father did about 20 years. I did 23, not that I'm competitive,

but I did my public service. And I was not planning on running. I was doing other things and I was enjoying life. There's a whole different life outside of work. in public service that I was entering. And to be fair, you probably weren't planning to resign either. Right. I had a nice couple of years, but I was watching New York City. I watched what was happening with Mayor Adams. I looked at the alternatives. And I am frightened for New York City.

I am frightened for New York City. I was HUD secretary, House of Urban Development. I worked with cities all across the country. And cities can wind up in what they call a death spiral, the equivalent of a death spiral. You start to lose tax space. We've lost 500,000 New Yorkers. What does a city do? You start to lose tax space. What do you do? Well, you increase taxes to make up for the loss. Well, then you lose more people. You accelerate the exodus. Well, you cut services. Well, then the quality of life gets worse. You lose more people.

So it's a precarious position that we are in. And the only real answer is start to fix the problems, show people progress, build optimism, and let them see that there is a future. and problems are getting better. and rekindle the love of New York City. Yes, I love New York City and I'm a lifelong New Yorker. and I would never leave. And you live here now, by the way. Yes, OK.

Sometimes it's black and white. There's no solution but to make progress, just actually make progress. And I think that's where the Democratic Party has fallen down, not just in New York, but across the country. Right, and the big cities led by Democrats. have, there's been so much homeless, so much drug, so many drug problems. I guess the question is, can one come back from it? But can we go back to when you resigned? Because I was watching your resignation video the other day, all 21 minutes of it, and you are alternately looked furious,

and then the other part you looked as if you were about to cry. And how can you persuade us that you've changed? Well, what I was saying in the video was, I believed the situation was political. I believed I did nothing wrong. So the 11 accusations of sexual harassment. were wrong. I said from day one, I believed it was political. And by the way, since then, district attorneys.

have looked at it. Nothing has come of it. But to litigate that as governor would have been. paralyzing for the state government. And we were coming out of COVID and to distract. the entire state government. I didn't think it was the responsible action. for me as governor. And I resigned and then actually had the ability. to address the matters. And again, nothing came of it.

What was I doing? I was practicing law. I was actually spending time with my children, which. is something that I didn't get enough of a chance to do. I was a workaholic for many, many years, followed my father's model. He was a workaholic for many, many years. And I turned around and my kids were 30, 30, 28 years old.

And I missed a lot of that. And I have great regrets about that. So I spent time with them. I traveled with them. And actually had a chance to see other parts of life. And then I looked at New York City. And I just felt that precisely what you said, I've done this all my life. I was at the Department of Housing and Urban Development. When it was a disaster and the Republicans wanted to end it.

and said, unless you turn it around and clean it up, they're going to end HUD. I take over as governor. The state was in a terrible situation. Record deficit. The legislature wasn't functioning. The agencies were a mess. Same situation. Somebody has to come in. Somebody has to fix it. And that's what I did as governor. And the city is in an analogous position to me. Wait, because when you express this kind of idea.

about your fall and coming back from it and everything, and you don't express any regret at all, I mean, does that--. because I want to talk about that, how you're positioning. that in your campaign. I think that's a big thing in New Yorkers, to gain the confidence of New Yorkers. Do you plan on saying, I feel really bad about something. you did, or I regret that these women felt a certain way? Oh, Isaac, I have said that.

I said that from day one. I said that from day one. Is that part of the strategy, though? Well, it's a strategy. I've been saying that from day one, because it's the emiss, right, it's the truth. I never intended to make anyone feel uncomfortable. And to the extent I made someone feel uncomfortable, I said from day one, I apologize for that. And did you learn anything from the tactics. or the way you spoke, or did--. Oh, yeah, for sure.

So the level of sensitivity has gone way up. I understand there are new interpretations, new cultural interpretation, so that I intellectually understood, but maybe didn't actualize. And so I think that which doesn't kill you--. Right, makes you stronger. Makes you stronger. So I did learn from that, and I think I'm better for it.

And it was also a life lesson, right? You learn a lot about people. You learn a lot about yourself when you're not done your tuchas. Yes. What did you learn about yourself? Well, in many ways, Joanna, I was too focused and too concerned. just about my life was about work and what I was doing.

and the people I was involved with work. And there were other parts of my life that I neglected--. friendships, having fun, as I mentioned, spending more time with my children. So--. And what was that about? Was that about the allure of power? Was it about control? I mean, because essentially what you had. was a moment of great hubris that brought you down.

Yeah, I think what it was was I was emulating models. that I had seen in my life. My father's model was very simple. He worked seven days a week growing up. The arrangement with my mother was. he would be home Sunday nights at 7 o'clock for dinner. That would be the one night a week. That was the time you saw him. Yeah, that was the family dinner was Sunday 7 o'clock.

And he didn't even make 7 o'clock a lot of Sundays. So that was his model. I worked in the Clinton administration. eight years full term of the Clinton administration. No one worked harder than Bill Clinton. The stories he wrote about him--. No one played. Right. Well, he did not need sleep. I mean, he was just a phenomenon. And I was in his cabinet, and I worked seven days a week.

So that was the model. And Attorney General Governor, I didn't. want to leave the state as governor. Who knows what happens? I'd only leave for official business. But I wouldn't go on a vacation. I didn't take the kids to Europe. I would go to Israel for a day and come back, right? Just because I wanted to be here. And what if I went to Florida and there was a snowstorm.

and I couldn't get back? So it became an all consuming lifestyle. But isn't that what would happen if you ran for mayor too, that actually part of being mayor is. that you have to be out and about cheerleading. for businesses and things? Oh, yes. That's true. But I think I would do it with more balance. I've learned that lesson. There is balance at the end of the day when they put you.

in that box, right? Do you mean a coffin? Yes. OK. I wasn't sure what box you were talking about. Feet first. When they put you in the box, I say, let's start with the eulogy and work backwards, right? I want to have been a great public servant. That's important. I want to have been a phenomenal father to my children. I want to be a great friend to my friends. I want more than just a great public servant.

That's nice, but it's not enough. I have a question because you used a word a little bit. earlier about sensitivity. And I'm just wondering how you feel about the Democrats. right now. Not just the ones in New York City and New York State, but just on the whole, about our position. on these issues, these human rights issues, and things.

like that. And how you, at the moment, as a person who is someone running. for an office to protect New Yorkers, might you be facing that? When was the last time you spoke to Donald Trump? Yeah, well--. That's a big question. Yeah, well, most of us, the last time he spoke to Trump. I know him very well. I haven't spoken to him recently, but we've had intimate dealings for many, many years. But that, Isaac, I think is the question. And that's what we have to focus on,

because the Democratic Party is in trouble, as to be honest. Yes, it is. And I believe in the old saying, you'll never. solve a problem if you're unwilling to admit it, right? The first step is admitting the problem. I think everyone listening to this. will agree, people who don't like you and people who adore you. will agree that we are in trouble. So the national election with Trump, just to provoke people, Trump did not win. We lost the election.

We lost. Well, how about in New York? He did better. First of all, in New York City, he got about 30% of the vote, which is nothing to write home about, right? And it's because 500,000 fewer Democrats. didn't come out to vote. It's not that he got a surge of voters. 500,000 Democrats stayed home in the face of Donald Trump's. election. Just think about that.

Joe Biden administration, Camilla Harris is running, and you stayed home. That shows a disillusionment, and you have to hear that, and you have to react to that. And I think what happened is the Democratic Party just. became disassociated from Democrats. We lost sight of their life issues. So how did the Democratic Party get hijacked. by the cultural issues?

And how do you outmaneuver Donald Trump? You're both Queens guys. We didn't get hijacked when you say we're both Queens guys. Excuse me, we're all Queens. I say we're all Queens. I mean, you're both from Queens. Hey, Queens. You're both from Queens. That's whenever I see him, I say, hey, Queen. You're a different Queen. Hey, Andy. Yeah. Sorry. But even that, see, what is the connotation. you are Queens guys? See, they'll never let us forget. They will never let us forget. Well, I'm a Brooklyn guy, so that's. one step better than a Queens guy.

Oops. I said it. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. We are out of borough guys. Yes, we are. We are out of borough guys, which, as New Yorkers, Isaac and I can appreciate. There is no inner borough in New York. There is so an inner borough. There is so many. And you are in it. They are just out of boroughs, which. is growing up in New York. When you came from an outer borough, there was a little chip on your shoulder. I went to high school on 46th Street. OK, I'm just saying.

OK, so you went to high school in the inner borough. But how do you--. See, you're defensive about being from an inner borough. I am. I am a little bit. I was born in Mount Sinai. That's what I tell everyone. So you're a Manhattanite. Yes, I am. Sorry. OK, give me a minute. I'll stay proud in the outer borough for you. But my point about the fact that you and Donald Trump. have queens in common is, where are his vulnerabilities? Why have Democrats failed to puncture anything. that he appears to be doing at the moment? I don't think it's about him yet, right? It's about us.

Let's look in the mirror. And your question, I think, was right. How did the Democratic Party get hijacked? It didn't get hijacked. We hijacked ourselves. We lost our base, and we lost our foundation. But you were governor for 10 years. I mean, you had a massive impact on the state. So how did the Democrats end up in the situation. they have done? But I did focus on them and their day-to-day lives, right?

You look at what we did. It was all about making a difference at the kitchen. table. We raised the minimum wage to the highest in the United. States. That put more money in your pocket. Free college tuition for the middle class. So you could sleep at night and not. have to worry about how am I going. to pay that college tuition. Gun safety, the best law in the United States, because you were afraid of the number of guns. that were out there. And then make a difference in my life.

OK, New LaGuardia Airport. So when you travel, you say, oh, this. is a pleasant experience. New Second Avenue subway helps you. want to commute, New Moynihan train station. Yeah, all of which is great. But nevertheless-- and I use them all the time, and I'm very grateful for them. And it was great that you got them done. But the Democrats have lost the plot. in terms of responding to Donald Trump. Is the reason that you're actually running for mayor.

because you want to run for president? No. I'm running for mayor because I want to run for mayor. and stabilize and turn around New York City. I do think the Democrats have not found an effective way. to respond to Trump because he is playing a totally different. game than we have seen before. First of all, he's a different Trump than Trump won. He has a different strategy. Well, he has more backing.

He has the entire--. He has more backing. --every single scotis and podium, all of it. But he also has the Democratic Party on its back foot. We're always reacting, right? Today we're going to talk about tariffs. And tomorrow we're going to talk about Gaza. And then we're going to talk about Ukraine. And it's the Democratic Party sort of chasing where he was. And by the time they get to where he was, he's on to something else. He's already on to something else.

And that is a tactic that he has deployed very effectively. Now, if you step back, the Democrats. can say, well, I understand you were. enthralled by Trump's leadership and energy and enthusiasm. But look at what that volatility has done. Look at what that eccentricity has done, electing, appointing people to a cabinet who.

have no qualifications whatsoever. Well, I want to change the world order and get more businesses. back. And I'm going to put in tariffs. And the stock market drops. And your 401(k) becomes a 201(k). OK, I didn't mean that. I'm taking back the tariffs. And I'm only doing the tariffs on this. And oh, no, I didn't mean that. And I'm taking back smartphones. Oh, no, I didn't mean that. And that's what the Democrats have to say. You know, you can have a good goal, a good end.

But the means matter. And when you do it in a reckless way, you can cause more harm than good. Well, what strength will you bring to this? I mean, I know you to be a very strong governor. I know you as a person. I know you're a strong person, right? And as Joanna was saying, you know, this fall. that you took or whatever. And now you're sort of you're concerned about your image. and you're concerned about sensitivity and everything.

like that. How do you balance this kind of like, I guess, what a courting of Democratic vote, whilst still being this kind of like bulldog against the federal--. you know, against Trump? Like how can you possibly create that--. like what does that platform look like? Yeah. Well, first, I think my greatest asset. is-- and always will be my sense of humor. I say, right? OK.

Thank you, Queen. Yeah, not a go-on. Look, who I am is who I am. And there are times when you have to be willing to stand up. and fight. Sometimes it is a fight. First with Trump, Trump, you have to confront Trump. You know, Trump is old school Queens, Brooklyn.

He puts his finger in your chest. And if you step back, you're going. to be continuing to step back for the rest of the relationship. So you have to be willing to stand up to Donald Trump. And he is a formidable individual. And he also represents the federal government. And he will do whatever he needs to do to beat you. Now, I've gone through this with him a number of times. through COVID, right? Right. Which was the most intense interaction.

And just remember what that was. That was every day I'm doing a briefing. Millions of Americans are watching it. President was watching it. He would then do a briefing in the afternoon. And it was sort of a back and forth between his theory. and my theory. And there was attention to it. And the president was controlling. whether or not we got vaccines, and whether or not. we got respirators, and whether or not.

we got National Guard. And he had a lot of leverage in that situation. So being able to deal with the president. through that most intense--. I mean, I pray to God. I never have to go through anything like that again, or any of us. But dealing with him through that is probably. the most intense interaction you can ever have.

But yes, you'll have to stand up to President Trump. But more-- and this gets back to the bigger point. Do you think you can do that? So you think you can protect New York City from Donald Trump. saying he's going to withdraw federal funding from it? Are you a good foe for him? I am a good--. I understand the system better than most people could. I was in Washington for eight years. I was in the state. So I understand all the levels of play,

what he can do, what he can't do, what moves we would have. against what he does. And on a personal level, yes. I am comfortable understanding that is what this is going to be. So let me ask you something else, because I know you came in for a lot of criticism. over the nursing homes during COVID. I think a lot of voters, certainly in New York City,

are sympathetic to what must have been a very complex moving. situation. It's the beginning of COVID. You've got conflicting science coming out. No one quite knows what's going on, especially before the introduction of the vaccine. What I think people were shocked by. was what they saw as your opportunism. in taking a big advance, $5 million for a book. Would you still do that now? On nursing homes, first of all, you're right.

Nobody knew what they were talking about. We had the best science advisors globally, because New York was hit hardest in first. So we had the best people giving us advice, including the federal government, the CDC, the CMS, as World Health Organization, all of them. And nobody knew. What we did was we followed the federal guidance that was set. The federal guidance wound up changing several times.

as they learned more and more. But New York State followed the federal guidance. And this has been investigated. Yeah, I saw there were several investigations. They're all resolved. They all say the same thing. Because it was a night-- the point remains, though, it felt very opportunistic for you. to take a $5 million book advance for a book on leadership. What happened then was New York came through the first phase. first, by definition, because we were the hardest hit,

the curve turned, and now it was spreading to the other states. And we had just gone through a horrific situation. And I wanted the other states to know what to expect. And this is what we did. This worked. This didn't work. Don't do this. Do do this. Individuals, this is what you should know.

This is the advice we got. This was right this time. Could you have just done that on the website and made it free? I wanted a publisher who was going to promote it. and was invested in it. The way they used it turned out to be a negative. Well, it was a negative. It looked opportunistic. That was not the way it was intended, but that's the way it looked. Yes. All right, I've got a question for you. Given that we're on COVID, your brother-in-law is now--. or your former brother-in-law is now. head of health and human services,

Robert Kennedy Jr., because you were married to his sister, Kerry, is he going to make America healthy again? You know, I try not to comment on him. He is-- I obviously know him very well for 15 years, even more. He is the uncle to my daughters.

And this has gotten very complicated within the family, as you know. So I try to stay out of it in general. Do I think his perspectives on health and human services. are problematic? Certainly yes. Certainly yes. I have a question. Can I just change the subject for a second? Yeah, head. Because I always wonder about this.

People running for mayor-- like, I could run for mayor, seriously. I could. By the way, I want to spot in your cabinet some kind of something, some cultural spot. Hey, don't avert my glance. Well, you're from Manhattan. I'm afraid out of borough. He's not. He's from Brooklyn. But here's the thing. Like, I always wonder about this. Like, what's the difference-- do you. know what the difference is between running a state. and running the city of New York? Like, what's the difference? And how will you be great? At running the city?

The difference-- it's an interesting question. It depends on how you did the job as governor. You can do the job as governor sort of focusing on legislation. and being a little remote and a little removed from the day. to day. Right. I was a very operational governor, right? Yes. I was a very hands-on, granular, building. the Second Avenue subway. So I went there three times a week, right?

I was a government in action person, right? Very involved in the details of governance. I see. The mayor's job is a more hands-on job. But that's the way I did. The governor's job--. New York City also-- Buffalo Rogers, the city--. Right. --is opening along the city, et cetera, right? The state budget is basically twice what the city budget is. State legislature is a much more complicated body.

than the New York City Council. Both are formidable challenges. But New York City Council is 51 people. You're dealing with over 200 people in the state legislature. So I have done those tasks as governor. Big issue in New York City is affordable housing. I was the HUD secretary, housing and urban development.

secretary. I built housing myself in an after-profit when. I was in my 20s and 30s. So I have the experience--. I don't know that you could have more experience, Isaac, to be prepared to do a job than I've had. It's a political job, too. And I wonder what your relationship with Kathy. Hockel is like at these days. Have you--. Kathy Hockel, I selected for the Lieutenant Governor. position. Yeah. Well, both going to have the same agenda. The agenda is New York City has to work.

And New York City has to turn around. And you can't lose more people from New York City. because New York City is the economic engine. for the state of New York. And as goes New York City, goes New York State. So all hands on deck, one focus, fix New York City. That is everybody's goal. All right, so how do you persuade women--. I've talked to lots of people that worked with you. and worked for you. How do you persuade women to come and work.

in your administration given how you ended up leaving? Women-- I had a majority of women in my administration. I've had women who worked for me 10, 15 years. And who would come work again. I've had great, great staff, which is job one.

to doing any of these positions, I think, is having the best staff. Many of my best staff, my top staff, were women. And we had an excellent work in relationship. And literally, they will come back again to work with me. The thing I find hard to understand. is that 11 women accused you of sexual harassment. Admittedly, it was a kind of inner time. of there was a great frenzy around this.

But your consummate political animal--. you say it was a political campaign against you. How did you not see it coming? And how did you not have enough political allies. to save you? Well, two things. One, I'd been governor for 11 years. And I had pushed the legislature on many issues, which,

in some ways, is almost unavoidable. If you want to get big things done, which I did--. because for me, it was all about making a difference. in people's lives. And that means you have to battle the bureaucracy. You cannot have it both ways. You can't make everybody happy and still make major change.

Everything you go to change, Joanna, is going to require disruption. And the system abhors disruption. So you want to make a change? You want to start to pick up homeless mentally ill people. on the street? You want to hire more police? There is going to be tremendous blowback. And if you're not prepared to do that, then don't do it. Why is the blowback about hiring more police? Because you said you're going to hire 5,000 more police, right?

Because the whole political left movement. is defund the police. They all supported defunding the police. That was the chant. That's why we have 3,000 police officers. A few were police officers. They didn't disappear. It's a political movement. But they also were chanting about me too. And somehow you missed that memo. It's like there weren't people around you who said, hey, maybe don't speak that way to women,

or don't touch her this way, or whatever it is. Well, the me too. I actually changed the laws in New York. to make them the most progressive and the most. protective of women. Well, and you also changed the legislation. so people could go back and accuse--. you know--. Retro--. Retro--. Thank you. --retrospectively bring charges. Thank you very much for putting it more articulately. Right, which makes it all the more ironic that somehow you.

were forced to resign over accusations from 11 women. Yeah, because they didn't really have anything to do with that. I don't think-- I think it was your first point when. you said the political support. Number one, I did have to push the legislature very hard. to get things done. I got 11 budgets done on time that. had not been done in modern political history. By the way, it hasn't been done since I left. Right? All the major projects that I did--. first big state to pass marriage equality--.

Yay! Yes, the Democrats were against it. I know. I had to turn Democratic--. I know. --guards to do it. So the legislature, there was resentment. Also, on this issue, at that time, no Democrat was going to stand up and be supportive. None. It was frenzy, and they are like dominoes. When one falls, they all fall.

So no Democrat was going to stand up and defend it. I mean, I had great lifelong friends. in the legislature who called up and said, I love you. I don't believe it. But politically, I can't stand up on this one. Politically as a Democrat, that issue. had such power at that time that it was virtually. impossible to say, hold on. Let's get the facts.

Let's get both sides. Well, you know what, though? Darling, isn't that politics? So let's suppose you win. What are the first things you do to reassure New Yorkers. that you can bring the city back? I think, again, things that bother them today. What bothers you today? You said it already. There are mentally ill people who are on the streets. who should not be on the streets.

Right, who need care. Right, who need care. Yes. And if you are a compassionate, caring society, your answer isn't, I'm going to leave them on the doorway. to be abused, get them the mental health treatment they need. Now, that's going to be controversial. Well, wait a minute. Can I just say this one thing? I have to say this one thing. You're going to love this. I live on 12th Street. And there was this person who collects all those incredible--. it's those beautiful kind of constructions. on a tiny little cart of bags.

We've seen them, bottles. And he was just there day after day. And the police came day after day to try to get him to move. But his right was that he could stay there. And I don't exactly know where you fall in there, in the discussion between, like, he does have rights. He should have the right to kind of like stay put. And he felt very, very strongly about that piece. of real estate. Yes. I will go to do it, because I think.

it's the humane, compassionate thing. If it was my sister or my sibling who was in that condition, please get them the mental health treatment. That is disruption. And you will hear a tremendous political blowback. And that gets back to the Kuja Wainers question of, why was the legislature not more supportive? You're going to see a significant portion of Democrats.

who say you are institutionalizing people, and this is very harsh. And you're going to get sued 10 times. Thank you for walking me through that. I mean it. That is what is going to happen. And then it's going to be controversial. And politicians don't like controversy. And then I'll be here in a setting like this. And someone like Joanna will say, why have you created such controversy?

And so many Democrats are so angry at you. for taking people against their will. And they say you're violating the civil rights. and civil liberties. And that you're institutionalizing people. And this is a police state. And you think you're a dictator. That is what is going to happen. And that's why no one does anything, Joanna. But it's sort of distressing that the people who. are suffering by living on the street. and clearly having mental health issues.

don't have anywhere to go. Like you talked earlier about fixing New York City, right? I want to ask you about your vision for New York City. Because like I adored President Bloomberg. Wow, that was a--. that was a fraud. A fraud. And so--. He tried. No, I loved Mayor Bloomberg. I really did. And now like in retrospect, I do notice things about the city. that I really don't like. That I knew were like Hudson Yards. Every time I go through that place, I just want to kill someone. Seriously.

There was a sort of over gentrification of New York City. that I didn't like. I would love to hear your kind of vision. Like what do you see in New York City besides no homeless. and mentally ill people on the street? How do you see us in the year like what? Pick a year, Joanna. Next year, the year after. I don't think some of this is that complicated. Is it that complicated to clean up graffiti? Which also adds to the demoralization of it.

But yeah, what is your vision? I mean, I remember the gates. The gates was a one--. there's just been an exhibition for the gates of the shed. That was a wonderful moment in New York City. It brought millions of people to the city. Hudson Yards. I agree with you on Hudson Yards. But Little Island, Barry Diller, who's our business. partner in the Daily Beast, said that actually they. came to a standpoint or a standstill when they were developing. Little Island. And you called him and said, listen, if I can unblock this and get it going again, will you commit to it? Because at that point, he'd, I think, put $45 million into it.

And it was still going to take a lot more money to develop. And you got that moving again. So what are the other kinds of things, like the high line, like the gates, that bring great quality of life and excitement to a city? I got it. I just to go back, because there's one point. we have to understand. Because if I am successful, we're. going to be having the same conversation. Take Mr. Diller on Little Island, which is just a phenomenal, beautiful thing that he did.

And it's his business. That happens to be a phenomenal, wonderful, beautiful thing. But then there are also, like, other developments. that are abhorrent. Yes. But the high line is pretty fabulous. The high line, yes. What are you doing this on the high? You don't like the high line. Who doesn't like the high line? Me. I hate the high line. Why don't you like the high line? I don't like grasses. And I don't like underlit grasses. You don't like grasses. No, I do not like underlit grass. I'm sorry. Are we talking marijuana? Or are we talking--. No, I love that kind of--.

I'm talking about, like, you know, far and--. I think I'm insane. --grasses, bamboo that's underlit. I first moved here. I moved to the meatpacking district. It was so horrible, so much improved, largely through the high line. Or so fun and great. And flurrant. No, just huge ribs sticking up out of old bins. It was very smelly and foul. I'm out of this conversation. But how are you going to make this--. we've both lived through the ups and downs of the city. What is the vision?

I just want to put a post script in your first point. about Mr. Dillers' project. I did get involved. It was disruptive. People did not want it done. That's the story of New York. You go to change a light bulb in New York, and the next day there's a committee. that's for the preservation of light bulbs. The island is now up. The island is beautiful. And everybody loves it. What you leave out is the beating I took in getting engaged, right? Same thing with the LaGuardia Airport, all of these projects.

So the first point that you have to understand--. and New Yorkers have to understand--. and the media has to understand. Oh, you get criticized for--. you get criticized when you take a position. that some people disagree with. Yes, this is New York. Everybody disagrees with everything. Nobody agrees with anything. The Bloomberg administration was a pro-growth, pro-development. administration. They are right in that orientation.

When I was held secretary, I'd be flying into a city. I'd count the number of cranes that you see in the sky. And I would say that's a litmus test. A city is either growing or it is dying. And Bloomberg was pro-growth. He was creative. Dan D'Octeroff, God bless him, was a genius at it. And the city had an energy and was moving forward. Especially post-9/11, right? It was also really safe and really clean, as I remember.

Yes, he managed-- he was a manager. So you know what, elect a manager, first of all, who knows how to manage a $300,112 billion enterprise. rather than a person who never had any management experience. And they'd be shocked when they didn't know. how to do an executive capacity, even though they had never. been an executive, and never suggested. that they had any experience that was relevant. Were you talking about mayor Adams? I'm talking about-- I like multiple people.

Oh, OK. Or all the people who are running against it. Right. Yeah. That was a good point. Well, including mayor Adams. Including mayor Adams. Including well. Right, who's now running as an independent. We really think he has a chance at all mayor Adams. Come on. But many-- we elect-- you can be a great state assemblyman. or a senator or a controller or an advocate. But you're not prepared to manage. Only in government would you hire a person who has. no qualification or experience in the--. Is there anybody running who you would-- you know, the Lincoln thing, where you hire people to work? Is there anybody running for mayor.

that you would say, you know what? That person's cute. I'm going to hire that person to do this job. Or besides me. They may be cute people. I haven't really looked at them that way. But no one who I would--. But have we got to the end of your vision yet? No. No, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I say, keep this--. I know. Sorry. I keep interrupting. Who's cute? I will stop. The strength of New York is--. and the fundamental asset we have is the--.

this is the place that attracts the greatest talent. on the globe. Right, so it's people and it's brand, right? The brand of New York is very strong. The brand-- but the brand comes second to the substance. We do attract the best and the brightest. We're getting the young people with the talent. And when we-- when you get the young people with the talent, the businesses follow.

They feed on the electricity and the diversity. and the international feeling of New York. The mayor is part--. chief marketing officer. The mayor is a developer. And if you are a serious business, you need our talent. We had won a competition with Amazon. to come build a national headquarters here. It was a national competition. Every city, every state offered them. more financial benefits.

New York won. Why? Because they wanted the talent that we had. Even though our financial package was nowhere close, they were going to open a national headquarters in New York. Remind us what happened to it. What happened to it was the extremists. in the Democratic Party, the anti-development, anti-corporate, anti-capitalist--. they'll call themselves socialists--. said, well, that's corporate welfare.

because you're providing a government incentive. I got it approved. But Amazon said, I don't want to be here. if I'm dealing with this political environment. And it was 25,000 jobs, right? Yes. Bezos' point was there had been a delay. in getting the legislation passed because of the opposition. I actually got it passed. By the time I got it passed, he said, I just--. I'm out of here. I don't want to deal with this. Yeah, that was what obscene to turn down 25,000 jobs, just shocking that's not what--.

Yes. You know, I guess. Public representatives are supposed to--. It's a really sticky thing, because if you let someone. dictate to you, it's like--. do you worry about our sanctuary status? I'm not kidding. Do you worry about that? Hold on a second. There was nothing sticky about Amazon. They were competing with every city, every state. Every city, state put a package together. We put an incentive package together. The state, the mayor supported it. Then Amazon came. We won is the mistake.

We won. And then the extreme left said, oh, this is corporate welfare and created. that whole political environment, slowed down the approval process, and then Bezos pulled the plug saying, I don't want to operate in this environment, which. goes back to the Democrats have to learn the lesson first. Yes, focus on Trump, but learn your own lesson.

You can't have this extreme wing of the Democratic Party. running the Democratic Party, because it doesn't work. So AOC was opposed to it. Is AOC part of the extreme wing? Yes. Yes. Wow, that was a really good question. and a very direct answer. That was direct, right? Yes. Yes. One word, yes. Yes, sometimes the answer is yes. So what do you think about her and Bernie going around now? They just did burn Sheller. They appeared at--.

they're sort of doing stadiums whipping people up. Is that an effective way for the Democrats. to be talking to people? Well, they have seized the anti-Trump moment. Right. And that they have seized effectively. And the Democratic Party is outraged at Trump. And there is a lot of anger. And frankly, there's more fear than anger. It's more fear. The fear comes first. And then the anger.

Major law firms buckle to his absurd demands, right? So that's created a fear. And I think they capitalize on that fear. The fear is founded. It's founded. And Harvard is being just what, $6 billion or something. And they're not backing down. Maybe that's a good thing. Well, Harvard, hopefully, is like the beginning. of the resistance. Hopefully that's the beginning. Well, who's able to take Trump on?

Right. I think the issue is--. I mean, what I've learned from this conversation. is how much harder it is to get things done. Because there is so much resistance. from all sorts of pockets of government, which you actually. don't know if you're not in it. People want to protect their own territory, political territory. Yes. And here is the riddle. And I do this with when I speak to young graduate students who. want to go into politics.

The riddle is you're a politician. You want people to like you. You want to get re-elected. Make no trouble. Legislators-- there's an old expression--. he who does nothing does nothing wrong. The competing pressure in school of thought. is if you get nothing done, you failed. You failed. When you get to the end of the day, and they say, what did you do, President Joe Biden? And if you have to explain it to them,

and they don't know that you did something that. touched their lives, you failed. So you have to make a difference. And then to make a difference, especially in a place like New. York, you're going to have to make some people unhappy. There will be disruption. And you have to be willing to fight through the disruption. Because when you get to the other side, you actually have the accomplishment.

But it's hard to fight through the disruption, especially when the media only feeds on the disruption. And oh, you're controversial, and oh, the legislators. didn't like you. Back to blaming the media again. No, first time I blamed the media today, which is actually a very low frequency. It took you a minute. And but that is the yin and the yang, right? New York needs to make changes, needs more police,

highly disruptive, needs mentally ill people. in facilities, highly disruptive, needs more affordable housing, dealing with communities. and who don't want any construction, because nobody wants any construction anywhere, highly disruptive. Regulate the e-bikes so you can figure out. how to cross the street without getting run down, highly disruptive.

All of these things are. So then when you say, well, I don't. see why the political process didn't take care of these things. Because it is all very controversial and very difficult, and you could lose office going near any of these things. That's the conundrum that the Democratic Party is in. Right. And by the way, you should run for mayor. Has anyone said that to you? Like seriously, I do. I'm thinking you should run for mayor. Or president. You should run for president. Just we'll go right to president. You run for mayor. You can run for president. OK.

I love it. I love it. Orgut, thank you very much for your time. So interesting talking to you. Do you feel better or worse about things, Isaac? I've always loved you. I mean, from afar. Thank you. You know? So I'm just going to tell you that. I've always loved you from afar and from a near. Not near enough. Now you're just being a total suck up. No, I know. I'm just hoping you're going to edit this part. He is. No. Don't edit this part. I think you'd be a very good deputy mayor. He is a--. You'd be a fantastic deputy mayor. Can I get a driver? You should be ahead of cultural institutions.

No, you bring your own driver, my friend. Bring your own driver. I will bring the driver. Isaac is a New York icon. He is. He really is. And he represents the best of New York. And the out of damn boroughs, darling. And the out of boroughs. Really, you just said you were on West 12th Street. You're on West 12th Street. When you claimed Manhattan by birth. Be proud of Brooklyn. It's on my birth certificate. You're right. Be proud. Have you been to Brooklyn recently? All the time. No, I'm just kidding. Lean into Brooklyn. Final thoughts on the Trump quid pro quo with Mayor Adams.

That they've dropped the charges against him. I think Donald Trump wanted to retain control of the mayor. Because I think Donald Trump wants control of New York. Because he is a New Yorker. Yes, he's in Florida now. He is a New Yorker. He wants New York back. He wants acceptance in New York. He felt rejected by New York.

And he has not done vindicating himself in New York. And we have not seen the last of Donald Trump's intervention. in New York. That I promise you. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, comment, and share it with everyone you know. And keep sending us those emails to BeastPod@TheDailyBeast.com. or drop us a comment on YouTube, which. I do try to answer. And if you're not a subscriber to The Daily Beast,

it's easy to sign up. Just go to TheDailyBeast.com. As my muse, Samantha Bee, always says, be best. Be beast, Isaac. It's be beast. Oh, well, it says be best. It says be best. You say be beast. I say be beast. Oh, it's be beast. Oh, OK. Be beast. All right, darling. We always get everything wrong, right? We get everything wrong. And yet, it's still so right.