Abby Phillip Spills Secrets of CNN's Wildest Show

Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Joanna Cole's chief content officer at the Daily Beast. And I am Samantha Bee, chief content officer of the Conclave. Oh, my god, so much is going on. Do not let JD Vance come within 50 feet of Joel Arsteen. We can't lose another one this week. Joanna, I know it's panicking. It's panicking making. He is the ring.

If you see JD Vance, you may die within seven days. You know what? If I met JD Vance, I feel like I too would. lose the will to live. So you know what? It tracks. I will say that the photos of Usher Vance, the second lady, she looks increasingly depressed. Oh, yeah, increasingly depressed. And also photos of Marco Rubio. That is a human being who is with the ring inside. Oh, doesn't even look like the same person.

Is he with the ring inside? Is he withering inside? Oh, yes. I do. Well, you're in that case, you're ascribing to him a soul, which it's not clear to me he actually has. I would like to think he was withering inside, because then he would be feeling a level of ambiguity. about what he's doing, but I'm not sure he does. Well, I definitely think that he maybe used to have one, but now it's just slowly and he's earned it.

I mean, he has earned it. I mean, he has. Yeah, he's earned it. All right, so this is confusing. You're in Connecticut. I'm in Los Angeles. You're seen as frozen, so I can't see you moving, but I can hear your voice loud and clear. And you're back after a week hitting the road on your House. of Survived Menopause tour. How did it go? It was very good. I'm having so much fun with it. I'm actually driving to Boston right. after we finish this recording.

And then the day that this airs, I will be in Philadelphia. So if you happen to be in the Philadelphia area. and you feel like you want to laugh about menopause. with a large group of people who are like-minded, please come by. I would love to see you. So fun. Are you going to take your menopause show. when you're saying you're going to Boston? Are you actually going to Harvard? I'm not just going to the Boston area. I'm going to Boston proper. Yes. Well, we need to discuss Harvard later.

with our Beast of the Week Abby Felix. We do. She's an alum. I want to know exactly what she thinks about it. But in the meantime, you'll be delighted to know. that Isaac Mizrahi did do a good job of filling in for you. Yes, he did do a really good job. I listened to the episode and I thought. he was actually too good at it. And it made me concerned that I may be replaceable. You know, my favorite moment was when he said that he hates. underlit grasses. And I thought--. I love you so much.

So specific. Yeah, we were talking about the high line, which she was. complaining about, which I think is the most glorious thing. And he was like, darling, darling. He said, what did you say I hate underlit grass? Underlit grasses. I'm like, wow, I must have grown up wrong. because I think underlit grasses are so beautiful. I'm not even sure what underlit grass is up. But I do love the high line. And if you haven't visited it and you're in New York, you really must. I did get used to him calling everybody darling.

So maybe you can do that. Darling, please, let's keep it going. I think it doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound right. I think it's more kind of darling with a bit of jazz hands. I like to say this. Joanna! That's more my vibe. You know what I mean? That's better when you're telling me off. for trying to persuade someone to come on the podcast. That's right. So we've been having a very religious week so far. Has JD Bance met the Pope? Then we have the Easter egg roll at the White House. Say that in quotation marks.

He met the Pope. Yes, he did. Poor JD Bance. He can't get a break, can he? You know what? He truly is one of those people that when he like swishes past, all the dogs start barking and the tulips die. You know what I mean? They just like blacken the interior of Marco Rubio's body. The memes were fantastic. The one-- my favorite meme was the fuck Marry Kill, where it was the sofa, it was the picture of Usher,

and then there was the Pope. Oh my god. It's bad. Again, he's earned it. He's earned it. He really has. Also, there's a moment where you build up so much, I guess, meme momentum that it's difficult for people. to take you seriously, and I fear he's going into that territory. Yeah. Oh, he's definitely-- he's been there for a really long time. Well, that leads us to looking ahead, because President Trump and Melania. will be attending the funeral in Rome this coming Saturday,

which is a good reason. Well, I really think they're doing it. to avoid going to the White House Correspondence dinner. Oh, that's very fair. But I have to say that if there was ever a moment, like when they cross the threshold into the Basilica, like if there was ever a moment for the Lord to summon. Stigmata, you know what I mean? I just have-- just like-- or like tears from the Blessed.

Versions, from the Blessed Virgin's statue. You know what I mean? I would love to see that. Prove to me that you exist. Make all the statues do stuff. I hate to be shallow, but I'm much more. interested in what Melania's heart is going to look like. It's going to be huge. It's going to be huge. It's going to be huge. It's going to be so huge. Also, just holding my bag close to my chest, because that was some story about Christie Nome's bag. being stolen with $3,000 in cash in it and her passport.

I'm sorry. Who carries $3,000 in their purse? That is-- that's a very--. that's just a sketchy amount of money to have in your purse. I don't know anyone who does that. Maybe she's planning to see the country. It's just a crazy amount of money to have in your purse, and to then put your purse down and leave it unattended. I feel like there's a beast story about how the perpetrator.

actually-- isn't she literally wearing a bulletproof vest. and surrounded by security at all times of the day and night? Like, all of this theater--. She had two security guards with her. And apparently what happened-- we had an excellent story. in "The Beast" about it. The thief, who was caught on CCTV, I believe, came in. Obviously saw her bag, sat at the next table. with his back to her. Saw her bag was under her chair, where I think all--.

lots of women put their bags, slid his foot back, scooped the bag towards him, then pulled it up on his knee, put his jacket over the bag, and left the restaurant. This is just a level of being so unaware of your surroundings. This is really quite emblematic of all of these just careless. people. To have so many identifying things in your bag, your pass, your passport, $3,000, everything you all--.

all your makeup, all your everything, your entire life--. is in this bag and you just, like, put it on the floor. First of all, what kind of bag was it? Do we know? I don't know what kind of bag it was. I want to know. It's such a metaphor, isn't it? And also, I got a slight delight in the idea. of having to fill out all those passport forms again. and convince the passport office that it really was stolen. Because now someone's running around with her identity, right?

Yeah. Well, she probably hasn't been at the State Department. I'm pretty sure she can secure another one quite quickly. I just got my passports renewed. I've got 10 years until I need to renew them again. And already, I feel anxious about just that whole--. the filling in the forms, the pressing the button, the waiting for it. The whole thing is so stressful. I don't know why AI can't do that. I'm glad that you got it in under the wire, because I think there's going to be problems in the future. I think there's going to be problems. I definitely think there's going to be problems.

But there won't be problems when we're joined by our Beast. executive editor, the New Jocody and our Beast of the Week, Abby Philly. CNN's Abby Philly. Can't wait. What else have you been up to? Oh my god, what have I been up to? I don't know. Just touring. It's been kind of crazy. My head is spinning a little bit. I was-- I regrettably missed last week's interview. with Andrew Cuomo. You did. You did. You were supposed to be here for it. I was. I was. But he-- well, he backed out of our--.

when we were supposed to interview him, he was unable to do it. And then I was scheduled to be away, so I missed it. And I was very prepared for that interview. So that was regrettable for me. Well, we got a ton of feedback online. Oh, sure. Lots of people felt that we had given him a very hard time. and that we should have backed off. Really? And then a lot of people thought that we hadn't.

given him a hard enough time. Oh, yes. So you were missed. You were missed. But it was enormous fun and quite illuminating. And we'll see where things go in the primaries, which. are June the 24th, I believe. People thought that you went too hard on him. I had so many, so many hard questions for him. What would you have asked him that we didn't ask? Because I circled back to the harassment charges,

I think three times. Three times I circled back to it. I do feel that. I feel like the one thing--. or there were a few things that I would have hit pretty hard. And that I think I would have talked more probably about--. like people's complex feelings toward him. Because on the one hand, a lot of us. acknowledge that during his tenure, he did put policies in place that were good for women. But on the other hand, his behavior,

the behavior that he has been accused of is gross. It's paternalistic. And it's familiar. We all hate that. We all hate the hand and the smile of the back. And I really am concerned. I don't understand why he can't speak authentically about it. I don't feel that he speaks authentically about it. And I want to know how he's personally. planning to interact with the women in his administration. moving forward. I really-- it's not like we're not. sitting here conflating his actions. with those of like a Harvey Weinstein.

But I think it's very reasonable to say. that his administration fostered a culture that. made women uncomfortable to the point. that they spoke out about it at great personal risk. And he's still coming after them. Why isn't it OK for us to wish for our leaders. to demonstrate good character? And why is it OK to belittle those concerns. or brush them off as like a joke or something stupid? Like our rights are currently under assault. Belittling our very real concerns is discrimination.

on a very subtle scale. So I want to know how he intends--. like in what specific ways he intends to stand up for women. right now. Like is he planning to take an aggressive stance. against harassment and assault on women in the workplace, in prisons, in domestic situations? How's he going to convince someone like me. who believes women, OK, that despite a plethora. of reservations, we should vote for him anyway? Well, the other reason I missed you. was that we didn't get the chance to talk about the space.

trip in Blue Origin, Lauren Sanchez leading the band of women. up to space and then claiming he was a giant step forward. for feminism, which I really didn't think it was. I loved your piece and The Daily Beast. I thought it was great. Thank you. I did feel that they presented it as a sort of feminist cause. And I think they've been shocked by the backlash. because people like this is ridiculous. Women are losing their rights across America, especially their reproductive rights.

Science is under threat like never before. And you've got them screaming in space with enormous lashes. And they're up there for 11 minutes. And when they come down, Blue Origin's media team. interviews Lauren and says, well, now you. can add astronaut to your resume. And she does actually have an impressive resume. So she doesn't really need to add astronaut. And I'm not sure that 11 minutes in your boyfriend's rocket. counts as being an astronaut. But she said very solemnly, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I am an astronaut. And then screamed, where are my babies? As if she'd been bobbing around at sea for three and a half. months, eating seagulls. Yeah, meanwhile, Planned Parenthood just. announced that it's selling the building of its only Manhattan. clinic. So we actually have bigger fish to fry in many ways. And women in science. Women in science have issues too. So it felt like a miss to me, that trip. A miss. And most federal funding for women's health--.

studies about women's health, all of that shit is gone. It has been--. like, doge went in and it has been removed from the schedule. So I just don't know. It just seemed incredible that they. would do it after the astronauts were stuck up there. for nine months. Yeah. And had to be brought back down by SpaceX. And then they're up there for 11 minutes pretending that--. you know, and then coming down and kissing the earth. The whole thing felt absurd.

You know, I'm really like learning that as I get older, I'm so not interested in theater. Like in theater of any kind. Like, I don't want to watch--. I don't want to witness the theater of spending millions. and millions and millions of dollars putting rock stars. into space for 11 minutes. And I don't want to witness the political theater of Kristi. Noem with her flak jackets standing in front. in a men's penitentiary in El Salvador. Meanwhile, she can't even protect her fucking purse.

underneath her dinner table. Like, I'm not into it. I know. She can't take the purse. That's not good. And the security that she had didn't. notice that the guy had taken her back. It's like, what are they doing? It's such a metaphor. A guy with a mask is reaching under the-- whatever. I mean, Jesus Christ. We've all had bag moments where we went, where's my bag? But this is just next level. It could happen to anyone. I gather, yes, that's true. But not when you're surrounded by security.

and where security is in the name of your job, and that's your whole thing that you're so tough. Meanwhile, you're like, let me put everything in a sack. and stick it under the--. oh, it's so stupid. Idiots. Welcome back. We're joined now by our most incisive return guest, even if you can't always understand his accent, Hugh Docherty, who's the executive editor of The Daily. News.

Hugh, we always need to talk to you, but we particularly need your insight this week, because there's yet another new Pete Hagseth scandal. that we need you to explain it all. Also yesterday, I was busy doing a board meeting yesterday, so I missed the news. And I felt like I'd been away for three weeks. in terms of Hexethia. My God, what is happening? Joanna, thank you for having me back, Sam. Thank you for being back. Do we want to talk about the lunacy, the incompetence, the ignorance, or the chaos?

I'm quoting our great columnist, David Rothkopf, there, who says that Hexeth is only the tip of the iceberg, but he is a very, very pointed tip. It's been quite a week in the world to Pete Hagseth. It's going to be, I think, for the next few days, quite a dramatic few days as well. So as everybody, I think, by now knows, he was in on what he had one secret signal chat going,

to which a journalist was accidentally joined. This was the one that Jack Dahlberg from the Atlantic. was put on by Mike Waltz by accident. Exactly. It turns out that that wasn't the only secret signal chat. that Pete had. On his personal phone, he had defense huddle. And unfortunately, I wasn't a member. And at the best of my knowledge, Joanne and Sam, you were not members either. Well, we can't possibly say. From your lips to God's ears.

Maybe on the third signal chat. I want to get invited. We all can feel a bit insulted, don't we? Because we do know something about what it takes. to be on Pete Hagseth's signal group. And it was his wife, his third wife, Jennifer, his emotional support brother, Phil, his personal spokesman, Sean Parnell, who like him is a combat veteran, who has also had some family troubles. And his personal lawyer, Tim Parnell-Torey.

And on this group, it appears that Pete Hagseth. was copying the battle plans sent by a St. Com's commander. and pasting them so that his wife, his brother and his lawyer all knew exactly. when FA 18 hornets were taking off to bomb the Houthis. Why? We don't yet know what emojis were used. What? Why is he the what? Okay, the signal of it.

I mean, I'm not even putting the signal of it aside. Why would his wife need that information? Like in what world are-. Maybe she's very demanding. Maybe she's like, why haven't you called me? And he's like, here's why I haven't called you. Maybe she's, 'cause she is the third wife. and he's had a complicated romantic time. So I don't find it difficult to believe. that she doesn't trust him. and she insists on knowing where he is. even if he's single the second of the day. Well, helpfully, she almost doesn't need to insist.

on knowing where she is because she is with him. in the Pentagon almost all the time. She has been in meetings and the Pentagon says. through its spokesman, Sean Parnell, who as I say is one of Hagseth's best friends, that she has never been present for classified. or secret information, but we have learned as well. that they were looking to get her a security clearance. so that she could in fact take part in these secrets. She, you're right, Joanna has a complicated background.

with Pete. Can you get fired just for being dumb? And if not, why not? Just, it's more a comment than a question. I think the answer is no one fires you. for just being so dumb. I'm going to turn to the words. of one of our other columnists, Michael Ian Black, who has written an absolute must read column. and that you will find in the Daily Beast.

And he has come as he says, not to bury Pete Hagseth, but to praise him. And he points out that Pete Hagseth is a man. who has demonstrated as just to quote Michael Ian Black, "One need not possess talent, discipline, "nor intellect to rise to this nation's greatest heights.". And that he is the perfect defense secretary. for a president who thrives on total chaos.

So it may be some that we have some answer there. He really reminds me of like, you know when Rick Perry took over, he was cabinet secretary and everyone called him, everyone in Texas, I think called him like Governor Hercut. I feel like Trump loves Pete Hagseth's hair. and that's why he's in the job. I mean, Joanna, you think of him more as like--. I mean, that's not good, her.

You think of him more as secretary American girl doll. I do, I do. Because to me, I just take one look at him. and he's all with his accessories. and he starts on stripes, accessories, his pocket jeep, his socks, his weird tats, his multiple wives. So there's a lot to buy there. If you were gonna bring him out as a doll, there's all sorts of accessory dolls, which means there's revenue opportunities around him. You're just multiplying the revenue around. And the Ice Barbie companion doll would do well as well.

Exactly right. And Bernie comes with a family, because as you say, he's got his emotional support, brother, it's fascinating. But--. And as you know, he also has, between him and his third wife, they have seven children. And we saw them this week at the Easter Egg Roll. He made his first comments in defense of himself. to the media who were present, just to report on a very traditional occasion.

People bring children, cabinet members, aides, bring children to Easter Egg Roll. The president even brought his wife, Melania even showed up. Jesus. The president, Melania did indeed make a rare appearance. While the president was coloring in, she was reading some story books to children. And off in another part of the enclosure, Pete Hegseth had his children gather around him. as he offered a very trenchant defense of himself. against the media. And he sought out the cameras.

He stared right into them. And his children behind him became, I think, avatars for how many people around Pete Hegseth. feel right now that they were covering their faces. and beginning to shrink away from their 44-year-old father. or step-father. Wow. And it's the spectacle that's going on in the Pentagon. Of course, it could only happen under Trump. It's only, as I just like to point out, when not at the first 100 days. And there is a lot of speculation.

where there Pete Hegseth is going to be replaced, whether Trump has lost confidence. as he's looking for replacements. We have had very bullish public statements from Trump. But the value of a Trump endorsement. can go down as well as up. This is also because Pete Hegseth has had to fire. several people himself from his department, right? Who've then gone--. What is the term? Where they turn against him and say, well, there's so much more chaos to come.

We've seen the inside of this, and you haven't seen anything. yet. Yes. So Hegseth has sidelined his chief of staff, fired a number of aides and advisors. And what's worth pointing out is that all of these people. were brought in by Pete Hegseth. So he's talked about the deep state being up against him. But these are the people that he brought himself. to the Pentagon. And they have briefed against each other. And they have also been out in public putting their own case.

One of them went on Tucker Carlson. He's a guy called Dan Caldwell. And he had a long history in government. or in Republican politics and advisor. of posts in government. He went on Tucker Carlson. And he said that he was a victim of personal vendettas. And Pete Hegseth has said that he's fired leakers. This guy, Dan Caldwell, denied that he was a leaker. And just to give you a flavor of Trump world,

Tucker asked him who the other leakers might be. And he suggested the leaks are coming from somebody who. worked for George W. Bush and from Susan Rice, who. was a national security advisor to Barack Obama. and a Homeland Security and a Home Policy Advisor to Joe. Biden. So it seems unlikely that she's leaking the secrets of Pete. Hegseth's Pentagon. But that's who they wanted to blame. So there's a lot of dimensions of this chaos.

And I haven't even mentioned the strip club. Oh, what? Wait, what? Say more. I had a thought, but I'm holding it for this. One of these advisors, Joe Casper, who was the chief of staff and who Hegseth described. as a great American, as he also announced. that this great American was now conducting special projects. And anybody that's ever been moved to special projects. or all knows what that means.

This advisor, it was revealed, had gone to a meeting. with veterans groups. And instead of sticking to the agenda, had discussed how he had been to a strip club. with somebody else that was in the room. That's great. What I wanted to say was that usually--. I mean, I know that he was saying, like the people who are all against me, they're just disgruntled ex-employees. And I was like, no, no, no, no. You say that they're disgruntled ex-employees. when they complain about you anonymously. But when they stand up, all four of them, and say their names,

and say how bad you are at your job, that's not a disgruntled ex-employee anymore. That's a person who is actually standing up. to how bad you are at your job. And that is very different vibe. Thank you. And there was a Freudian slip. on one of his favorite Fox News shows, I think, when they described him as the former defense secretary. So I think--. I didn't see that! There's a lot of selling shares going on right now,

but I suspect cell shares and Pete Hagseth. is that the right thing to take away from this conversation here? I never want to make predictions. And there are people who are selling stock. actively in Pete Hagseth. Yeah. I'm going to short sell. I'm going to short sell. Can go down as well as up within minutes. Hugh, thank you for your extreme perception. around Hagsethia, Hagseth land, whatever we call it, Hegland, Heggate.

I saw David Rothkopf called it Hagsethgate. That felt too long. I think it should just be Hagsgate. Hagsgate. Oh. Hags. If he was in Britain, he would be referred to as Hags. And by now, he would have gone. Because he wouldn't have withstood the nickname. He would be. And on that basis, I'll rename our secret signal group, Heggers. And Pete, if you want to join us, you know where we are. And I know you've got a lot of signal groups to juggle, but you are welcome to ours at any time.

We should make one and then we'll invite him. and we'll call ourselves something important. And he'll just believe it. Like he's not going to double check. It's not a double checker. The thing I feel is particularly odd is because he was precisely. because he was a combat veteran, you would think that he would take. more care with the information because he's actually been, I think he was in Iraq and Afghanistan. So he actually knows the danger of our service people on the ground.

He's experienced it. So to be so casual with classified information seems definitely odd. Joanna's head is as empty as an American boy doll. You called it. There isn't much in there. Well, at least he's got good stars and stripes socks. Thank you very much for coming on. And I will look forward to seeing you back. Oh, I'll see you at the White House Correspondents Weekend. Yes, I will see you there. And Sam, I'll see you in signal.

Yes, oh please. I pray. I'll tell Joanna about our secret group. My dream. Thank you for having me. We are back and we are joined by our beasts of the week. journalist, Abby Phillip. Abby joined CNN in 2017, first as the host of Inside Politics. and now as host of CNN's News Night, which airs weeknights at 10pm.

And she's the host of the digital service table for five. Abby is known for being one of the youngest people to ever moderate. a Democratic presidential candidate debate. And currently, it does the not so simple task of reporting on the day's. biggest stories while interviewing its biggest players. Abby, welcome. Thanks for having me, Joanna and Sam. Oh my gosh, what a pleasure. Okay, I have a very important question that I have to ask you right out of the. gate, which is what in the world do you all talk about during commercial.

breaks? Because it gets so hot in there. Well, Joanna's been there. Yes. I've seen it out. Sometimes it's eerily quiet. Okay. Sometimes. But I would say most of the time people are like talking about a lot of. random things, their kids, their pets, like their chickens, you know, it's. like, I actually think that's what people don't get is how collegial people. are when they're not screaming at each other on television.

And, you know, sometimes also the debate like goes into the break. That also happens. That happens. Okay. That makes sense. I feel like are people as collegial now as they used to be because that used. to be just kind of the atmosphere and politics that it was like fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, but we're all kind of getting a drink after like every. day after like everybody's meeting up at the bar for some dark liquor. Yeah. You know, look, people are meeting up after the show for drinks.

That is happening. I've never met anybody after the show for drinks. Joanna's never been invited. Yeah. You're too cool. You're too cool. You're never asked me to drink. Scott Jennings never asked me to drink. Oh. I'm saying. Okay. Well, Sharmaichle was on the show and recently and was like, said to. me, oh, we're on the air. Oh, we text about this all the time. And I was like, huh, you guys are texting buddies. They're like completely opposites politically.

But I also, look, I think actually that before, because I used to when I first. started in journalism, it was like the before times. It was like Obama and everybody was, you know, to quote Pete Hexeth go along to. get along, whatever. I mean, people were just sort of chummy. I actually think that there was not a lot of real disagreement. I think people kind of talk past each other on TV most times, which makes it. really easy for people to then be like, okay, well, let's go to the bar and,

you know, hang out. I think what we do can be a lot tougher because sometimes we really are getting. into it and people are honestly encouraged to get their disagreements out and to. air the differences between them. So when they do that and then they turn around and they can still talk to each. other and they can still be friends. And I think that's actually a healthy sign. Abby, sometimes I feel when I've done the show that especially the more right. wing or the more conservative commentators are performing for an audience of one.

And that's the president. Do you get much feedback from the administration that they're watching the show? I have heard from several people close to the administration that they do watch or. President Trump specifically watches. So great, cool. But look, I do think that it's not necessarily about our show. I think it's about Republican politics. Everybody is performing for an audience of one, which is Donald Trump. And so in Republican politics today, you can't really get caught if you want to be.

kind of a lot, Maga aligned, you cannot get caught disagreeing with Trump publicly. or at least a ball on television, or at least that's the perception that a lot of people. have that being said, some of the people you come on the show who are very close to. Trump in the White House, David Urban, Brian Lanza, they, I think, have a bit of a balance.

I think for the most part, maybe they're an 80, 85% Maga aligned, but there are times. when they can express disagreement. So I think it's just a fear thing, maybe that some people have where they're like, you know, they don't want to be seen as giving in to the left on television. Right. So yes, there's a part, but look, it's TV. I mean, I think that all of it is in a way a bit of a performance on the part of a lot. of people that come on.

Yeah. I mean, well, for the, for Donald Trump, it seems like the whole world, like the world. that he has created is television. Everything is a television show for him. And so he watches those performances so keenly. Like I thought I was really telling that you couldn't even really get Scott Jennings to. give you a yes or no answer on a very simple question the other day. Like it's just about Jerome Powell. Yeah. Should the Fed be independent or not? Yeah. You were like the consumer. I think if he was a dinner party host who remains calm while everybody else is yelling.

around you, it's extraordinary the way you do that. But first of all, is Scott Jennings on a zempe? Because he seems to have lost a lot of weight since he's been doing the show. I have no idea. I feel like he's really slimmed down. I have no idea. He's really lost some weight. I don't want to speak for Scott on that. You should bring him on the show, Joanne, and ask him. We totally should. We should. Very good idea.

The stress of the show is not responsible for any weight loss. And I certainly have not lost any weight in doing the show. What is your guiding ethos? Like how do you, I mean, I guess how do you set the schedule for the show? At what time do you decide what guests are going to be on? What topics you're going to cover? Like how is that set? Yeah. What is the technical? Usually around like one or two in the afternoon, my executive producer and I are kind of solidifying generally what we want to do.

But I actually usually hope that that changes because I don't like setting the show at like 10 in the morning. Right. And then at 10 at night, it's the same show. I would much rather the show feel responsive and energetic and kind of like in the moment of what's happening. And a little bit spontaneous because I think that's actually the important part of it is like, are we responding to what's happening in the news?

Are we nimble? Are we able to really take on anything? And that's why our guests have to be people who can talk about anything. There are a lot of smart people out there on a whole host of topics on politics on whatever. But there are many fewer people who have that versatility across topics and who can talk about culture, who can talk politics and economics and whatever music. This is making me feel better because I feel like I get the call from your show at about 5.36.

And I always think to myself, oh, someone's fallen out. They're clearly desperate and they've called me. But now I'm going to reinterpret it as, oh, they're trying to keep it spontaneous. And that's why they're putting it all together at the last minute. I will say it's enormous. It's enormous fun to do. But Abbie, you're 36. How many of your friends do you know who watch television? I feel like everybody gets their diet of news from TikTok.

I want to know what your diet of news is. Yeah. I mean, not even I watch television, to be honest. You have to watch television and the president watches television, right? Which is audience of one. But the general view shape has shifted onto digital. Do you think that you'll still be doing this in three or four years time? Or do you think you will have moved to TikTok? I don't know if TikTok pays, to be honest. But look, three to four years, something like this will be still going on for sure.

But you're right. I mean, my peers are not watching TV. And I joke when I say I don't watch TV. But that's, I mean, I have to watch some television. But if I were not like doing this, I think it would be hard to find the time. to sit down in front of a TV and, you know, sit there and watch it. And so I think a lot of my peers, you know, when they watch this, when they watch my show, what they're watching are clips of my show online.

and on TikTok and on Instagram and on X and wherever. And that's cool too, because I actually think those platforms need to be fed. by things like our show, like they need the raw content to fuel those algorithms. Eventually, we're going to have to just be native on those platforms. in a way that we are not right now.

And that's going to happen very, very soon. I mean, do I think that CNN and cable are going away in less than five years? No, I really do not. It's almost like how when I was in college, everybody told me that newspapers like The New York Times and The Washington Post. wouldn't exist. And then five years later, I was working at The Washington Post. and it had just been bought by Jeff Bezos and all of that. So I've seen these kind of evolutions of the medium.

But I do think that we have to figure that other piece out. and trying to figure out how to not just go viral, but just create viral native things that start there first. And we haven't figured it out yet. It's easier said than done. And I think fundamentally, the kind of content that works online is a little bit different. But something that we're doing is resonating because news like clips go insanely viral all the time. They really do. Yeah. They go viral on the beast. I mean, we run a lot of them on the daily beast.

because our readers love them. But my only beef with that is like not the daily beast, but beef with the virality of certain clips is that it's so subjective. to the ideology of the person clipping it. So the conservative clips go viral and then the liberal clips go viral. And I don't, as somebody who does the show, I don't think it's representative. of what happens on the show. But I think that's how the internet works. And we have to figure out how to make that work in a way that I think best represents the totality of what we're producing.

You have such a, as Joanna was mentioning before, you have such a calming presence in the middle. And many of the interviews or like the panels just kind of erupt. I mean, they're kind, they can be a little bit volcanic. And I wonder how hard you have to work sometimes to not dive into the emotion of it. How many sannaks are you taking? My God. I would recommend having five siblings like I did and start there because I'm pretty used to kind of like being in the center of a cacophony.

It's just like what I'm used to. And so that is not, I think that's part of where it comes from is that that chaos, I don't feel like I need to be in it necessarily. And also, I don't want to stop the eruption from happening necessarily, right?

Because this is real emotion, right? We want people to get real. And if they're worked up about it, so be it. The way I step in is to say, okay, shut up for a second. You guys are all talking at the same time. We cannot hear each other, that type of thing. And so I try to weigh my moments. But on the topic of like what gets me worked up, I would say the thing that gets me worked up is bad faith arguments more than anything else.

I actually think it's totally cool to disagree on policy, priorities, strategy, whatever, right? What gets me irritated is when people are misleading or lying, or when I know that you know that what you're saying is not true, or that you really don't believe it, but you're saying it because it's something that is combative to say.

And I think that's where I, you know, you mentioned recently, you know, the yes or no questions, right? Are really problematic for people from a political background because they don't ever want to say yes or no and be boxed in. But some things are yes or no. And your inability to say that, I think, you're telling on yourself. Because what you're saying, essentially, is that the performance of not agreeing with someone is more important than what you actually believe or what the actual truth is.

And I think that my role, in some ways, as an anchor in this format, is to be a bit of a representative for the people at home who are like, "You're not answering the question. Just answer the question." Or like, "That doesn't make any sense.". I really appreciated that. I felt that you really hunted Scott Jennings down on that, and you finally got him to actually answer the question sort of.

Well, I also think if you believe something controversial, own it. Yes. Like, go ahead. If you think that what should happen is that the president should direct the Fed, then great. But you got to own it. Don't try to slide into your position without actually taking ownership of what it means. And I think that's an important part of what I try to get people to do is like, let's really understand what you're saying here.

And let's take all the frills away, the wordsmithing away, and really get to the heart of the matter. Okay. So, Abby, you talk about owning it or owning the idea. And earlier, you referenced the fact you worked at The Washington Post. How do you think Jeff Bezos is emerging right now as the owner of The Washington Post? I think it's like all the other people of his class who are businessmen in the tech world who have business before this government.

They're all trying to figure out how to get close to Trump. And I think that it's unfortunate what's happened at The Post. I mean, it's sad to watch that paper. What I grew up in Maryland, it's my hometown paper. It was my dream to work there. And I loved working there. And I worked there after he bought the paper when he infused it with funds and Marty Baron was there. And I was part of the team that was helping to kind of make The Washington Post quicker online.

and sort of develop more of a digital identity around breaking news. And so it was actually a great time. And I think it's very telling that some of those very people that I worked with then are all gone now, all of them. And do you still read it? I do, yeah. And I think that the people who are working there are fighting the good fight. It's just really hard to see that kind of institutional knowledge, which is what makes The Post great go out the door.

I think that we cannot underestimate the degree to which that hurts a paper of The Washington Post caliber. Let me ask you this. If you could accidentally be added to a signal chat by a cabinet secretary, which one would you want it to be? What would you like it to be about? Okay, who's my favorite cabinet secretary? So many of them, so many to choose from.

So many. Maybe Christine Noem. I need to know what happened with the purge. We've just been discussing that. And the $3,000 in cash, I must know. Yes. This is upmost importance. I think she was planning to flee the country. She had a passport, she had $3,000 in cash, which if you're from North Dakota, probably thinks going to get you a long way. The passport thing is what got me on that story.

It's also even more incredible because as the head of the Department of Homeland Security, which I mean basically is responsible for who gets to be here or not, and who gets to come back into the country. Having your passport, I'm like, who travels with their passport domestically? And the world is happening. I think she was planning to flee. I think she was planning to flee. I just want to know more. Just pure curiosity. I want to be on the, because I feel like there's stuff happening that would be interesting to be accidentally invited in on in terms of conversation.

Oh my gosh. No kidding. That is like, you know what? That's like two members of a family traveling on separate planes. You never put all the things that are important in your life invaluable in one sack. And then if you do, you'll have to strap it to your body. Like what? Can you imagine being that thief? Because once they catch him, and they will because it was on CCTV, right?

He's going to be sent to El Salvador. I mean, what a mistake to take in a bag. That is the one person you do not want to. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. But I still don't understand how that could happen. But you know. Well, you have to read the story in the B-Stabby because we describe how the guy comes in, sits in a chair facing her back. So he's got her back to her back. And then she's put her bag under the chair and he slides his leg back and pulls the bag towards him.

What kind of bag was it Joanna? I don't know. That's the bit I don't know. My God, I asked the same question. I want to know. I want to know. Because if it was like a broken or something, it's like, I mean, don't put it under the chair. I think it was a Gucci bag. I think I read it was a three or four thousand dollar bag. And she was also spotted wearing a very expensive Rolex. Yes, she has been wearing that $60,000 Rolex, including two El Salvador. These people, I wouldn't trust a person carrying $3,000 cash in their bag plus a passport.

I wouldn't trust any person with the contents of their bag comprised of those things. Absolutely not one person. It's just not trustworthy. Abby, let me ask you something else. We discussed the Washington Post. What do you think about what's happening at CBS? Bill Owen, the editor of The Great 60 Minutes, has left saying that he was getting interference. and it wasn't how he could do the show anymore, their flagship show.

What are your thoughts about that? We just had a great conversation about that on the show and, you know, the price of entry, I think, for the corporate people and corporate entities that own news organizations, this includes the Washington Post, is some kind of capitulation to Trump on things that are important to him. And when it comes to CBS, he's been mad about CBS for a long time. Remember, we walked out on Leslie Stahl in that interview a years ago.

And so he's been upset about that for a long time. But the question I have for the people who are running these companies is, when do you think it will be enough? At what point do you think you would have given enough to Trump that he will leave you alone and give you what you want? I think that's the question right now. And as somebody who's covered Trump, I am not sure they understand that the answer might not be,

"Oh, we just give him that little thing and he'll be fine and then we'll be able to get our sale.". I think that the Trump 2.0 mode right now is like, "Let's destroy it all.". And I'm not sure that he would be satisfied until CBS, the Washington Post, and all of his other, as he describes it, his enemies are essentially destroyed. And so you really have to think about how far are you willing to go and is it going to be worth it?

And I'm not sure that they're really thinking this all the way through because I think there's a sense that, "Oh, maybe if we give a little bit here and a little bit there, everything will be fine.". And I think that might be a colossal miscalculation. It's extraordinary. I didn't know that Bill Owens was only the third EP or editor of 60 Minutes. What that tells you about that piece of American society is that this is not a sort of like, "Go where the wind blows" news organization.

And I think to damage the reputation of these types of institutions is so dangerous because it only takes, it is so easy to destroy a reputation. It is so hard to build it. So I think people need to think very carefully about what they are willing to chip away at in this moment because it's not going to be easy to get it back. Could not agree more. Couldn't agree more.

We held on to Cuomo on the podcast last week who, as you know, is also from Queens like Trump is. And he said that the thing that you have to understand with Trump, with whom he's had many dealings over the year, is that the minute Trump pokes you in the chest, if you don't poke him straight back, he will just push you against the wall. And that you have to meet force with force. And the idea of compromising makes no sense to Trump, he just sniffs weakness. And I just spent this week, I spent yesterday with a couple of tech friends, one of whom used to work closely with Mark Zuckerberg,

who said that the assumption was that Mark turning up at the inauguration and that somehow the empty trust suit against him, which is currently running through the courts as we all know, would not happen, that they would get some kind of compromise. And it does seem like Trump is just, he doesn't care how much you capitulate, he just wants more. He just wants more. And that's exactly my point. I think it's just the truth is that when you, if you know the people who are kind of behind the ideological underpinnings.

of what Trump wants to do now that he has the presidency for a second time, they are not interested in just kind of taking a swipe at the media. They really want a complete overhaul of the entire hierarchy, the system that we live in on all fronts, economics, media, law, politics, everything.

So I don't think that they were are just going to be interested in a weakening of CBS, a weakening of the Washington Post. So just as I think that's the baseline, everybody needs to understand that and act accordingly. And I think that that's when we look at what's happening with Harvard. I think that is also what we're seeing there is that there's really only one entity, maybe two or three, okay, that can do what they're doing right now.

And so if they don't do it, no one will do it. So that's why that particular legal fight is extremely important because I think it is going to test what happens when the only people who can push back actually push back and what happens next. And you went to Harvard. Yeah, you must be so proud. I did. You must be so proud, extra proud now. Now you can just say it out loud. You don't have to say I went to school in the Boston area. Look, I mean, I went to Harvard, but I'm not like, look, when I was growing up, I was the only person I knew who ever went to Harvard.

So it was a strange land for me when I went there. And Harvard has a lot of ups and downs and good things and bad things. But I think it's just a simple fact that they've got a lot of power in the, in the educational ecosystem. They have a lot of money. They are larger than some entire country's economies. They have to decide what they're going to do in this moment. And, and I think that, you know, just anecdotally, because people are constantly texting me about this and the conversation in the Harvard community.

And this has been written about donations have skyrocketed. I think there has been a unity that at this moment has created among people affiliated with the university, including Jewish students and Halal and all of these other entities, Jewish entities that are on campus to say this is a bridge to fall. And I'm not sure that's what Trump was expecting, but that's been the result.

And the university needs to take seriously not only how do they respond to Trump, but also what are they going to do to make sure that something like this never happens again, which means, OK, how did it get to this point? How did it get to this point? Are they getting ahead of what's happening on their own campuses so that it doesn't become a headline that can be politicized by any politician down the road? This is great. This was a great conversation.

I've enjoyed hearing from you. I think you are a great voice out there. And I'm just so happy that you're doing what you're doing. And it's just a very entertaining show to witness and so uncomfortable in the best possible way. Well, and congratulations on the five, too. I mean, I feel that television may be withdrawing, but Abby Phillips is Abby Phillips. Yes. There's no S at the end of your name.

Abby Phillips is on the rise. We're cannibalizing six out of the seven days of people's weeks, which is great. Joanna, you're so great on on table for five, which is the Saturday show, which I think we try to make a little bit more laid back. But then sometimes things get a little heated there, too. But I've been so happy with how the show has turned out. I was very nervous about this format going into it, thinking that it would just be kind of like another round boring round table.

But I think what makes it good is just the awkwardness, Sam. Yes, I agree. It feels very awkwardness. It feels very awkward. Just a tad uncomfortable, because it's like real. Yes. And that moment is when people realize, oh, wait, this is real life. And I think that's what makes it super interesting. And I love walking out of the studio every night and being like, well, that was unexpected.

Like, whoa, what just happened there? Because I like being surprised by my own show. Oh, that's great. Yeah. All right. Well, Abby, thank you for joining us. Thank you so much. To have you. And we look forward to watching your continued success. Thank you, Joanna. Thanks, Sam. If you have been listening, thank you. Please share, subscribe, comment, do whatever you would like with this episode.

Tell everyone you know, Ring-a-ding-ding, The Daily Beast has a podcast. And keep sending those emails to BeastPod@TheDailyBeast.com. Drop us a comment on YouTube, Joanna reads them. She interests them. And she'll get back to you. I've been super fan about getting back to people for the last couple of weeks, but I promise I will drive a long plane ride on Friday, and I plan to go down the YouTube spiral. Perfect. Perfect. And if you're not a subscriber to The Daily Beast, it's so easy to sign up,

and you really should support independent journalism. Just go to TheDailyBeast.com. Well, this was a great episode. Thank you, Joanna. Thank you to everyone. And you know, as my personal muse and she is out there inspiring us, attending Pope's funerals, doing whatever, reading storybooks to children just out there, and she is saying once again, and thank God, be best. Sam, it was...

Beebeast. It's Beebeast. I'm never gonna get it right. Ugh.