Ron Chernow (FULL EPISODE) | Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend

Hello, my name is Ron Jerno and I feel. very very warmly about anyone who has. won the Mark Twain Award for American. Humor. Oh wow. Including our friend Conan O'Brien. So, it's a delight to be here. Thank you very much. Yeah. Um that's. lovely. Uh and that was one of the great. I mean I've long been a Twain fan and uh. and I'm a huge history buff, so I'm uh. that award meant the world to me and all. the people that turned out. It was just.

a lovely night. And. no, I you know I I saw in your your uh. your resume Conan that you had studied. history at Harvard and I had studied. literature at Yale. So you were in. training for my career and I was in. training for your. history. You want to trade? You want to. trade? Sure. Um, you know, I've noticed. something which is there's a and other. people have pointed it out as well that. you have written this string of. spectacular biographies and I.

congratulate you on the Mark Twain. I. read all I believe 1,200 pages uh of of. this book and was enthralled. I love it. and I learned so much about Twain that I. didn't know because you're you've. unearthed some amazing stuff about the. man and to see his life. I mean, it's. very hard to contain this guy's life. Uh, and I think you have managed to do. that brilliantly, but I was looking at. your work because I believe I have read. all of your books, which I can't say to. um to many people. Um, Judy Bloom, but.

uh. but it's you and Judy Bloom. Um, but there's an interesting there's an. interesting path to the order in which. you wrote because you start out and you. write about JP Morgan and this great. guilded age industrialist which then got. you interested and and and wet your. appetite for your next book which is. Rockefeller which then got you. interested in finance and you you think. I'll go back to the beginning the source. who's running finance in America at the.

very be well Hamilton you write that. book and I know your plan all along was. for it to be a uh a musical with a lot. of rap. Um. yeah, people, you know, people always. say to me at events, "Mr. Churn, did you. imagine as you were writing the book. that it was going to end up as a hip-hop. musical?" And I always say, "I think the. question answers itself.". Yes. There is a really I I'm sure you've. seen it, but there's an amazing tape of. Lynn Manuel Miranda. He's been invited.

to the White House to perform his latest. work. This is obviously a bunch of years. ago, 15 years ago or so. He's invited to. the White House to the Obama White House. to perform his latest work. And he gets. up to the microphone and he says, "I'm. now going to perform this the, you know, President Obama and the first lady there. and all these assembled people at the. White House." And he says, "I'm going to. perform my latest work. Um, it's a. musical about Alexander Hamilton." Huge. laugh. Huge laugh. And he goes, "Hold on, hold.

on, hold on. No, no, no. I'm serious. It sounded so absurd to people and then. of course it became one of the most. no in fact you know with with that song. a few months earlier uh he had come to. my brownstone in Brooklyn Heights and he. sat on my couch and he started snapping. his fingers and he did the opening. number of the uh of of the song and uh. when he finished he said what do you. think I said well you've taken the first. 40 minutes first 40 pages of my book and. you've condensed it into a 4-minute song.

and I said that's rather amazing you. know but what I was thinking and I. didn't say to him I said this is kind of. embarrassing that it took me 40 pages to. say what this guy you know has done in. four minutes and then a few months later. he said you know go on YouTube I. performed it at the White House you know. so I you know there he is not only. performing it at the White House but he. got a standing ovation from Barack and. Michelle Obama and I thought to myself. I'm really strapped to a rocket with. this guy he's written one song in the.

show and and he's already performed it. at the White House and gotten the. standing ovation from the president and. first lady. I loved when I went to see the play uh. on Broadway and it's the in the initial. run went into and it's the hottest. ticket in town and I go to see it and I. walk into the lobby and prominently. displayed is your biography Hamilton by. Ron Chernow is right there and it's like. you know it's so it's what any historian. would dream of. Do you know what I mean?

that that and I know you would are. disappointed that your book on Grant did. not become a hip-hop musical, but Hamilton leads to Washington. Washington leads to Grant. And um I. mentioned this to you out in the. hallway. I love the Grant biography. because the most shocking thing to me. that I had never appreciated before. about Grant and I I I thought I knew. about these guys, he goes to West Point,

he serves in uh uh fights in Mexico, you. know, he's uh in the in the. Mexican-American War and he's uh tries. his hand at business and it's really not. going well for him. And this is and the. civil war is approaching. But as the. civil war is almost upon us, he is. carrying and delivering firewood like. chopping it and delivering it to people. in the cold to make enough money to put. food on his family's table. And then.

he decides to. go sign up for the war. And the period. of time between him chopping wood and. carrying it around to people's homes. doortodoor and him being the most. celebrated general in the biggest war in. the history of the world is about two. years. No, it's the most Yeah. And you know. and then two years later he's he's next. to Lincoln. He's the most famous man in.

America. Absolutely. You know, one of the things. that attracted me to the grand story was. that I felt that um all the people that. I had written about up until that point. were kind of built for success. I mean. you know you read about the early years. of Alexander Hamilton he has a focus a. discipline and drive intelligence you. know if he didn't do what you know he. ended up doing he would have succeeded. at uh at at something uh where. Washington a very impressive guy even. had the revol revolutionary war not come. along he's still a very impressive.

capable. yeah and even John D Rockefeller when. he's you know a young clerk on the. Cleveland docks he said I was after. something big whereas you know 5000. pages into Ulyses Srant, you figure this. guy's going to end up a footnote in. history at at best. And so I was. attracted to the idea of uh writing. about failure. I had written about so. much success. And after all, as we all. know, life is much more about failure. for most of us, you know, than than. success. And so, you know, with with.

with Grant, suddenly the Civil War comes. along. He had West Point. He'd been in. the Mexican war. He stood out all this. military lore in his head, but he's. working in his father's um leather goods. store in Galen, Illinois, where he's. working as a clerk junior to his two. younger brothers. You can imagine how. that felt. The war breaks out. There's a. tremendous shortage, particularly in the. north, of you know, trained officers, and he suddenly meshes with his. historical moment, you know, and then he. rises and rises and rises, but he's.

almost 40 at that point. he could easily. have ended up living a life of total, you know, obscurity instead. And I think. this is one of the things that um. inspired a lot of people reading the the. story. You know, we all feel that we. have something special inside of us if. only the right set of circumstances, you. know, happens. And Grant is kind of the. greatest example of that. He is. It's it's it's uh if you saw it. in a movie, you'd say, "Well, we got to. fix that part." Cuz there's I mean, the.

fact that you have him chopping wood and. delivering it door to door and maybe. getting a nickel for his trouble and him. saying, "Thank you. Thank you very. much." and moving on to the next house. Uh and then he's a celebrated war hero. two years later in the most. consequential, you know, war of that. century, if I can say that. It's. astounding. It's absolutely astounding. Um, today we're here to talk about Mark. Twain. You've written uh I' I've been. waiting for this book because I'm uh you.

know, I've made my life in humor for. better or worse. And Twain is the. American humorist. And he comes from. this era that fascinates me. And I was. saying this to someone the other day, Twain has been turned into kind of an. emoji, you know? Yeah. the the white suit, the cigar, the. apherisms that we see all over the place. on coffee mugs and everything. And. um kind of a lovable, you know, uh yeah,

emoji, for lack of a better word. And. this book shows you that his his life is. I it's an epic life. It's an it's. uniquely American life. He does so much. and he travels such a far distance. I. don't mean he does it, you know, obviously uh in miles. He. circumnavigates the globe, but I mean. just from what he started as and what he.

became is infinite and it's all in one. lifetime. And then he has so many. contrasts and I wanted to talk about. some of those. Um he's born in the south. and he identifies as he is a southerner. Yeah, he is a southerner and he has as a young. as a kid and as a young man he has all. of the antibbellum southern beliefs. Yeah. I mean he's born into a. slaveolding family in this slave owning.

town in a slave owning state. Okay. He's. born in Hannibal which is tucked all the. way up into the northeast corner of. Missouri. It's right on the Mississippi. River. So it's, you know, then and now. rather isolated rural area except here. is this broad shining magnificent. waterway that's kind of bringing once or. twice a day, you know, the world through. Hannibal, you know, and pouring off. those steamboats. Uh might be circus. players, it might be traveling salesmen, it might be a minstrel show, whatever. He sees the whole world passing through.

uh him and it kind of begins to give him. an intimation of a wider world. But. you're right. I mean, going through his. letters, you know, when he's a a. teenager, not only statements kind of. crude and racist about, you know, blacks, but Chinese, I mean, you name. it. Yeah. And this man um grows an inconceivable. amount in the course of his. uh life, you know, from growing up in. this, you know, small town backwater and. he has all the prejudices, you know, of. the general environment and he becomes.

so much more enlightened and tolerant. a figure. I tried to touch on this in. the, you know, you get to give quick. remarks at the end of at the Twain prize. and I tried to touch on this which is. by the end of his life, his views have. evolved so much and he is um living in. this age of imperialism. He's living in. this age when Americans are getting. really excited about, you know, we're. going to pretty much control the. Caribbean. We're going to take over the.

Philippines. uh we're going to we take the Sandwich. Islands, it's we're going to take. Hawaii, we're going to expand. And Twain. is saying, "I don't like this." And it's. very unpopular. And he's very much. against. um all of the 19th century racism. towards Chinese. He's very progressive. He has a lot of views that are. completely. uh evolved from how he grew up. Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting. because he fairly early on becomes.

America's most popular and beloved uh. humorist and he recognizes that it's. something of a trap. He's always afraid. of kind of alienating his readers, particularly alienating his southern. readers because he had very very strong, you know, views on not just politics, religion, and a lot of other things. But, um, as his life goes on, I really. feel by the end of his life, he's become. the conscience of American society. you. know that he's dared to articulate all. of those things that he was afraid to. say. And I think that part of his power. is he says things that all of us are.

thinking but won't say out loud. And you. mentioned, you know, his views on um. imperialism because at the beginning of. the Spanishamean war uh he's actually. very much on the side of the uh the US. He feels that we're defending these uh. you know Cuban rebels against their. Spanish overlords and we take over the. Philippines. and he again idealistically. imagines that we're going to liberate, you know, rather than subjugate the. Philippine people. And he gets up at a. dinner uh in New York. He was very often.

the toastmaster. He was kind of the. perfect person to host a banquet. And he. gets up there and he says that our. soldiers in the Philippines are uh. marching with disgraced musketss under a. polluted flag. Well, we all know because. we've all lived through wars. We know. how difficult it is to criticize your. own government in your own country. during a war. During a war. Yeah. And people in the. audience gasped. And in fact, another, you know, one of the organizers of this. event immediately rushed up to the. podium and said, "No, our soldiers are.

not, you know, marching uh with. disgraced musketss under a polluted. flag." And, you know, increasingly as he. goes on, uh he's willing to take the. heat. He's willing to make the enemies. And one of the interesting things, one. of many interesting things about doing. this book is we all like to think as. people get older, they become more. mellow in their views. Twain becomes. more rabid. Yeah. In his rage. And he's not only take. taking on America and the Philippines, he's writing pamphlets against the the.

Russians. He's writing pamphlets against. King Leopold II of Belgium for his. behavior uh in the Congo Free State. He's um campaigning against municipal. corruption in New York. He's writing. pamphlets defending the Jews. He's. speaking out uh in favor of women's. suffrage, etc., etc. There's also his uh uh what's it called? He wrote a a article or pamphlet, United. States of Lynchdom, was it was it? Yes. And he but he was very much uh um.

he was taking on topics no one wanted to. talk about. Yeah. lynching in uh in in the Jim Crow. South and he would talk about it. Yeah, that was actually, you know, on so. many things he became outspoken. That. was one where he finally drew back. because originally he he was collecting. a lot of clippings about lynchings in. the United States, including in his own. town of Hannibal. And he had originally. planned and proposed to his uh publisher.

that he was going to do a history of. lynching in the United States. Um he. ends up writing an essay, the United. States of Lynch, which unfortunately did. not get published during his lifetime. It was published 13 years after he uh. died. And you know what he writes um is. that he he tries to analyze the. psychology of Lynch mobs uh and he says. that it's really just kind of a few. sadistic. uh individuals who are instigating the. crowd. uh and uh he says that most of.

the people are cowards who were coerced. into it. I don't know if that's true. I. say in the book actually when you look. at photos of a lot of lynchings it seems. like there are a lot of smiling faces, you know, of whites in in in the crowd. that turned out to that was kind of one. topic that was a bridge, you know, too. far. Yeah. Uh for him to uh to to do it. But I do. think he was prefac I mean he was. looking ahead to. I think he'd be a ghast at the. collective.

thinking of the news media now the. internet how people love to group think. group think is I mean he's talking about. all these things. there's so many places where he's. talking about group think uh he actually. has a very interesting essay called. cornpone ideas and what he says and I. keep thinking about this with our own. contemporary politics. that we have two sets of ideas. We have. our secret and sincere positions on. things and then we have the positions.

that we take publicly for the sake of. our own safety. You know that he he he. said that kind of life makes cowards of. us all the need to support our families. We're afraid to to voice things. He also. felt that you know politically we all. like to imagine that we're voicing. original ideas when in fact he said you. know 99% of the time we are voicing. ideas that we picked up from party. leaders from party organs that were kind. of paring things. Well, now we have that.

we have that I mean we have that over. and over and over again now with. everyone spouts what they what they just. heard on either CNN or Fox or that they. saw on the internet and it becomes their. opinion. Twain is talking about so many. things that relate to today. And there's. a couple of things that I absolutely. fascinate me about this guy is that you. use the words to describe him glandular. and volcanic. There's something driving.

this guy from an early age that you. could almost think would show up on a. CAT scan as like, oh, I see there was a. a growth pressing on the occipital lobe. in the, you know, there's something. going on with this guy that yields him. greatness and also terrible folly. He is. obsessive. He is non-stop. Um, I've never read about an author who. churned out so much. I mean, when he got.

writing, he would say I I mean, he would. just sometimes standing up, sometimes. writing at the billiard's table, sometimes in his little octagonal. writing room, you know, he'd churn out. uh, you know, chapter after chapter. after chapter and um, go on these. streaks of writing that he when he turns. it on, when it hits him, he's doing that. till the end of his life. I mean, he's. so prolific to an almost crazy degree. That would be enough. But he's also.

getting he's traveling as pretty much. the world's first standup, not the. world's first, but a stand-up comic as. we would know it today. Yeah, he's a very much in demand speaker. He's. traveling everywhere. He's also getting. into insane money-making schemes. Mark Twain, he he has an idea for a like. a board game. It's the Mark Twain memory. game. He has ideas for a a book that. self-paces for when you put in. clippings. All of them bomb. And the sad thing is.

he really gets involved in this printing. press, this setible type press that he. thinks, the page press that he thinks is. going to revolutionize the world and. ruins not only his fortune, but his. wife's inherited fortune. They lose. everything on this idea and he can't let. it go like a gambler in Vegas. And so he. is so good at seeing the flaws in other. people. He's so good at seeing the. vanity in other people. And then he goes. off and does the stupidest things you.

can imagine. Um and uh like again again. you just think he's he's driven. He. can't stop himself for in in good ways. and in bad ways. Yeah. You know he he writes a letter at. one point to his family. He says they. have to move move exclamation point. And. there is something driving him. I mean, one of many contradictions of Mark Twain. is he always described himself as lazy. But, you know, we know Tom and Huck in.

the Mississippi. He published two dozen. books in his lifetime, somewhere between. one and 2,000 magazine articles, filled. up 50 notebooks, gave thousands of. interviews, gave thousands of um uh. speeches, and I of course had to go. through, you know, all of this. And so. uh and he was very aware of his own. nature. He said my emotions veer from. one extreme to another. Uh would you suspect I mean today today. someone would say you need to go see a.

psychoparm psychopharmacologist. Uh I mean most great men in history. would probably be told you you need to. be on Prozac. Yeah. Uh we maybe let's put a little lithium. in your coffee. Let's do something. Yeah. And I mean there was it was. interesting uh because there were a lot. of characteristics. He was uh you know. he claimed that he was lazy but then he. would go through kind of this. hyperfocused. uh uh period. Uh he could be very. scattered and disorganized particularly. before he met his wife who really.

cleaned up his people living you know. people would walk into his room and. there would be you know scraps of. writing everywhere. There'd be you know. pipes and cigars everywhere. It would be. a complete mess. I did um describe this. to a psychiatrist friend who immediately. said, you know, about attention deficit. disorder. I try not to use contemporary. psychological language. It seems. inappropriate to project that, you know, back onto the past. But there's. something like that, you know, that's. clearly going on. But um I got very.

fascinated by the the business. investments. In fact, at one point in. the book, I said it was sometimes hard. to tell whether Mark Twain was um a. literary man with business sidelines or. a businessman with literary sidelines. that you know he said um uh I have to. speculate such being my nature. He. admits late in his life after he's lost. several fortunes. He said I was always. the easy prey of the cheap um. adventurer. And there was something very. very compulsive about the speculation.

because the tragedy of the story is you. know here is a man who um made a fortune. in book royalties. He made a fortune in. uh lecture fees. He marries an ays from. upstate New York. to a coal fortune. coal and and and rail and timber. Um. they're living in a 25 room mansion in. Hartford with six servants. He blows his. own fortune. He blows Livy's. inheritance. They're forced into exile. to economize in Europe for nine years.

It's cheaper to live in Europe. Cheaper to live in Europe, but but. still, you know, they're living like in. a, you know, 28 room villa in Florence. to quote unquote economize. You know, they're they're living in um a um. there's no Airbnb. There's no Airbnb. And shout out to Airbnb, by the way. You. guys do a great job sponsor, you know. Then they're living in a very. lavish suite of hotel rooms in Vienna. In fact, they go on one trip to um to. Europe and they buy so many uh objects.

to beautify their house in Hartford that. they come back with like, you know, 12. crates and 25 boxes of things that they. were like the original consumers. And. Libby was usually the restraining force. on Twain's worst excesses, but she. herself was the original, you know, shopper. Uh, and she wrote a very. beautiful letter to um her mother at one. point and said, "It's terrible how. attached we become to material things.".

So, here was, you know, a man, a couple. who should have had a lovely, placid. life, that had everything in the world. He had talent. He was making enormous. amount of money. He had married into. enormous. amount of probably the most famous. person in America. The most famous and and actually the. most famous American, you know, in the. world. In the world. Yeah. Yeah. But and you know, particularly in. the United States, he was so fascinated. that if he walked into a restaurant. theater, everyone would stand up and. applaud. He was that famous instantly. It happens. Uh when does it happen? What's that?

When does it happen? Uh Sona call Sona calls ahead. Okay. I see. I see. And she says, "Conan's going to be there soon." And. you know, you each get $25. Okay. Actors. Yeah. You know, the problems. are self-inflicted wounds. Oh, all of it is self-inflicted. And um. he gets. there these contradictions, which is. he's a southerner who becomes obsessed. with living in the north in Hartford. among all the most northern liberal.

elites. Yeah. the the Tony, the Yankees, the. writers. So he does that, he makes that. transformation where he becomes the most. northern of northerners. Um he hated. hated Gilded Age millionaires. Desperately wanted to be one and did. everything he could to be wealthy. He. had a publishing house, the type-. setitting machine, these crazy board. games. All of it fails.

But um he's this kind, generous. There's. so many stories of his kindness, his. generosity, his sweetness of nature. Yet when he decided to turn on you, he forget it. He he was uh his rage knew. no bounds and the language that he used. when he decided I mean these are people. who he said like this is the greatest. person I've ever met. This Matt Gorley. is the greatest person I've ever met. I. love Matt Gorley. I love you know he's. great. He's my best friend. I love him.

He's fantastic. And then, and I've. experienced this. Um, one little Can we just end here? No. No. Just please. You can. You can edit this for yourself. and play it. No. No. But then um but then whatever. the friend did that he decided was you. know some kind of breach uh or lapse or. any he that snake that monster that you. know that lower than low and he would.

just he couldn't. he couldn't contain himself. There was. no gray area. There was no gray area. He couldn't get it out of his system. you know, when when when he was a young. uh writer in San Francisco, he was about. the same age as Bret Hart. Remember. Brett Hart, the outcast of Poker. Flaz, who was the celebrity at the time, who was who was the celebrity at the. time and who Mark Twain thought was the. most celebrated, maybe the greatest, you. know, writer of the time. They became. very very close friends. Um uh they. later collaborated on a a play and Bret. Hart was having many difficulties. Came.

and lived in Mark Twain's house in. Hartford. He said things about the house. that Mark Twain didn't like. He said. things about Libby, the wife, that uh. Twain didn't like. And and Mark Twain. then turned on him. He would like fall. in love with people. uh and then he would become severely. disillusioned so that uh you know he. finally has a Brettheart. He never had. an idea that he came by honestly. Yeah. Uh he said that he he was a man without. a country. No, that's too strong a term.

He was an invertebrate without a. country. Oh, you know, burn. And there was no one there was no one. who was better at put downs than Mark. Twain. But you know, K, one of the. things that I could not figure out um. about him. We all have these experiences. with people where we're suddenly. disillusioned with them. Yeah. And maybe tell them off, but when we do. tell them off, it gets it out of our. system and then we sort of calm down and. we move on with our life. Mark Twain.

would not let it go. Yeah. And if you can't let it go, the. one who's going to end up, you know, being victimized by it is not the other. person. It's going to be. Yeah. It's kind of like this wound. uh that he keeps probing again and again. and again. I could not figure out um I. don't know if any psychiatrist could. figure out. I mean, he's late in life. Uh he's very disillusioned with the two. most important people working for him, a. man named Ralph Ashcroft and woman named. Isabelle Line who is his private.

secretary. when he becomes disillusioned. with him, he ends up writing a 400page. manuscript, you know, and he says about. Isabelle who had been his. he was so close to her. Yeah. And she becomes really important after. he loses his wife. This is someone who. cared for him, took care of him. And. then he writes this 400 page. She was like this surrogate wife about. how awful she was. She was a brood. A. simple heartless brute. She was an. insect. She was Kendrick Lamar of. Yeah. Well, he also hated Drake. He also.

Drake, which is your next biography is. of Drake. Oh, he can wrap your story there. He can wrap your story there. You heard. it here first. Ron Chernow's. 1,800 page biography of Drake is going. to drop in a year. But you know what's so funny is if you. ask people for the sort of the the quick. concept what do you Mark Twain again you. think of the mustache you think of this. sweetness sort of a slouch grumpy the.

cigar but all these funny uh funny. cranky comments and it can all seem you. know Tom Sawyer Huck Finn gliding down. the river and then you look at later in. life and there's so much tragedy. I. mean, they lose this fortune. Uh his his. um he has uh one daughter uh who is um. very ill. Trying to think um I got cuz.

it's uh oh, Jean has epilepsy. Epilepsy. Yeah. And it's it's terrible. Uh Susie uh when. when they've left the country, she's. wandering around their mansion, which is. shut down, alone. and she had menitis. and she pretty much dies almost alone. while the while the family is in Europe. It's very tragic. Um he uh Twain's wife. is very sick. He's constantly beset by. these money troubles. People suing him.

trying to get the money back. And he. does something that's really stunning. You know, today we live in this world. where people declare bankruptcy, they'll. give you one penny on the dollar and. then they start another business. venture. Um, not naming names here, but. but plenty of people who take advantage. of this system. Uh, Mark Twain, it was. very important to Mark Twain and his. wife Libby that when they had to declare. bankruptcy, this publishing house. collapsed that they had created and they.

owed a lot of money and they swore that. they would pay everybody back every. single penny. And then at an advanced. age, he starts this world tour. And you. I mean, I couldn't I couldn't do a tour. like this. I have tons of energy. I'm a. lot healthier and younger. I could not. do what he did. He goes at this time. when it was difficult to travel. He goes. everywhere in the world to raise the. money to pay everybody back. And he.

didn't have to do that. Yeah. And he's suffering terribly from. car bunkles. I I I I mean uh he just it. was really grueling for him to do it. But particularly Libby felt that um. there was this terrible stigma attached. to to bankruptcy. You know, for her it. was a real question of of honor of. honor. Yeah. And in fact, um, you know, the eldest daughter, Susie, who died at. 24 of bacterial, um, menitis, uh, when they finally paid off the last.

of the debts, um, Libby um, writes that. the happiest day that she'd had since. her daughter died was the day that they. paid off the last of the of the. creditors. In fact, there's an. interesting moment. Twain became very. good friends with the Standard Oil mogul. named Henry Rogers. Uh and uh Rogers is. kind of running rings around the. creditors. He was a very very shrewd. Wall Street operator. He was helping. Twain out. Yeah, he was helping Twain out. And uh. Twain, you know, in New York writes very.

proudly to Libby who was then in Paris. describing uh the way that um Rogers. handled the creditors. And um Libby. writes back, she said, "I'm upset by the. way we're handling the creditors." you. know, she really felt that um they owed. the creditors and they would should be. treating the creditors with much more. dignity and uh and and respect. But it's. an amazing story because it did take. several years to pay off the debts. But. you know what amazed me Con? Okay. So, he goes through this terrible, grueling,

it was a 12 or 13 month round the world. um uh tour and then they're living in um. Vienna and he discovers that there is. this patent for a new process for. printing on carpets and textiles and. tapestries. After everything he's been through, after everything he's been through, he hears about this new invention. He hears about this new invention. He go. he goes to the American uh consulate and. he spends a day reading up on this. industry. He's known nothing about this. before. After 24 hours, he's convinced.

that he's the world's leading authority. on this. And he writes a letter to his. friend um Henry Rogers who is one of the. main moguls of Standard Oil. And he. suggests that um they buy up the. worldwide patents. The device was the. device was called the raster. Said we. should buy the worldwide patents for. this. He said um people will call it a. trust this global monopoly. they will. have but we mustn't mind that you know. people will talk but that's okay and so.

he's gone from knowing nothing about. this to suddenly imagining that he's. going to be the head of a global. yeah he he really he wanted to be uh you. know what today we would call a. billionaire he wanted to be a. billionaire uh he wanted to be a. financial whiz which is so crazy because. um it's what he loved to make fun of. it's but it's also what he wanted to. and the second half of his life or. actually the last couple of acts of his.

life are the I mean to me he is so. disillusioned and so dark and we think. of Twain again I keep coming back to. this that we think of him as. um this charming you know the the Twain. you see on stage in one man shows is. just this. fun scamp and rascal and you know the. old riverboat pilot who's got his. stories. And in the end he is so dark and he's.

questioning everything. Yeah. No, I mean he says that uh anyone. who's not a pessimist is a damn fool. He. actually says there was no life ever. worth living. Uh he makes. no life was worth living. Was worth was worth living. And he was. asked if he would like to um live his. life all over again. He said I would. like to um relive my youth and then. drown myself. He he made this statement. that the only gift that God gave to the. race was youth. He felt that everything.

else, you know, after that was. bitterness and disappointment. And he's. always kind of pining for this lost. paradise of his youth, which is why he. wrote so powerfully about Tom uh Sawyer. and uh Tuckleberry Finn, which of course. has, you know, much darker uh tones to. it. But it's it's it's a it's it's a bit. of a paradox because he had this adoring. wife. He could not have had a better, you know, wife than than Libby. Uh, and she also she read everything Twain.

wrote and would temper him. Maybe not. I. mean, but she would remove if she. thought if she thought anything was a. little, you know, uh, that's a little. racier. That language is a little, you. don't say breaches. That's You're. talking about underwear. Let's take that. out. I mean, so she was very gent. She was very gental, which is a very. funny. They were an odd couple in that. way, but she was a great partner. Yeah. And actually one of the. interesting, you know, parts of the uh. of the story is Twain said when they uh. first met that uh he Twain was a mighty.

coarse rough, you know, customer and she. took this um this man and she really cuz. he'd come from this little, you know, backwater town. Uh she made him. presentable in polite society. and he really didn't know how to uh uh. to do it. She helped him with what we. would today called anger management. He. had a terrible temper. So he would very. oft if he was angry he would sit down. and he would write a very you know. impetuous no telling somebody off. And. she trained him when he did that not to.

send a letter but to stash it in the. drawer and wait a few days and then when. he would cool off and I can't tell you. Con how many letters there are you know. in his archives where the morning after. a dinner party he would write to someone. who'd been at the dinner party. Uh, the. madam tells me that I might have been a. little brusk and sharp at dinner last. night and I really didn't um intend to. offend you. In fact, you know, the. daughters laughingly called this mother. dusting father off, you.

reached the point where they had this. system of cards uh at a dinner table. Oh. Um, a red card flashed to Mark Twain. meant, "Are you going to monopolize that. woman sitting on your right the whole. time?" Um, a blue card meant, "Are you. going to sit back and not say anything. the entire dinner?" You know, so she's. kind of guiding him. These are soccer penalties. Yeah, these are soccer. We had those cards for Conan during this. conversation, too. Easy. Wrap it up. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, in fact, he um.

said because uh you know, he said um. Libby edited my manuscripts and then she. edited me. Yeah. And she kind of really gave him a a life. and uh you know, in many ways she was a. a long-suffering wife. He loses her. inheritance. Um we have extensive correspondence. between them. Uh she never never threw. it in his face. He apologizes a lot. I mean, another. another word I wrote down after when I. was reading the book, I I wrote down.

guilt. Yeah. He has so much guilt, you know, today about, you know, he. convinces his. his uh his brother to become a steamboat. captain. Uh he says, "This is a great I. love doing this." And there's a his. brother's then killed in an explosion of. a steamboat. And so Twain blames. himself. Twain blames himself for uh so. many things. you know, when his daughter. dies, he's not there. He's, you know, because he's trying to raise money and. because he's lost all the money. So, he.

blames himself for that. And you just. think of almost like Marley and Dickens. He's got these chains of guilt that he's. sh that he's carrying around with him. that go back to early childhood that uh. and somehow he's fighting against that, you know. No, you're absolutely. I mean, you know, the saddest one is that, uh, he and. Libby, their first child was a boy who. was named Langden, which was, you know, her maiden name. Um, and Langden died at. 18 months. And what happened was that.

they were, um, at the Langden, you know, place in Elmy, New York. And one chilly. morning in May, they went out driving. and Twain felt that he had not wrapped. the baby up um, enough in this chilly. weather. and they came back and and and. the baby had a cold, but then the baby. recovered and they went to Hartford. Uh. and after they went to Hartford, um the. baby died of dtheria. Mhm. Uh Mark Twain told William Dean Howells,

who is his closest literary friend, he. said, "I killed Langden." He was. convinced that that ride in the carriage. when it was emphatically not that. emphatically not the case. Yeah. In. fact, his his sister-in-law Suk Crane. afterwards said um you know they left. Elmmy and went to Harford cuz the baby. was better, the baby was was fine. So he. had this tendency. to flagagillate himself, you know, and. take responsibility. And it was really. kind of crazy, you know, what happened. with Susie, the eldest daughter, that he.

was not, you know, there at the time. They had just come back from this round. the world tour. There was no cure for. menitis at the time. Mhm. You know, his being there would not. really have helped matters. And in fact, she was sort of delirious and raving. It's really I mean, it's Shakespeare and. she's one he's built this massive house. which is, by the way, you can go see it. Yeah, it's still there. It's absolutely uh beautiful. Um uh. kind of almost garish. It's like this.

insane. It's it it someone said it looks. like it's a steamboat or. cross between a steamboat and a cuckoo. clock. Yeah, it's but but I mean you. would go crazy for it's the kind of. thing you and I would tour and go crazy. for. And it's not a little it's not. unlike Theodore Roosevelt's house. Theodore Roosevelt's house in Oyster. Bay. This just big long thing that. people built back then. Massive uh huge. ceilings, lots of flourishes, lots of. different colored stone and brick. Yeah.

Um but that was their joy. I think they. live there for 17 years. And then uh. they have to leave it cuz they can't. afford to live there. They banish. themselves to Europe and then of course. she's there at some point alone. wandering around dying going from room. to room and all the furniture is covered. up with blankets and you're just like oh. my god this is uh I mean the sadness. that he endures in the later part of his. life it's just like a boxer being hit.

over and over and over again and. it's interesting you know because he's. he's he's a novelist and I think that he. himself becomes. character perhaps greater than any of. his creations. I think the life he lives. is a story actually more dramatic than. any that he uh created. And um it's it's. full of light and shadow because it's. full of literary triumphs to to be sure. uh full of personal calamities and you. know I haven't had a chance to tell you.

how just how much I loved your speech. that you gave for the Mark Twain Award. because I think that um. uh I was so glad just the tone of it. because Mark Twain was much more than. just a humorist. He was he was a sage. He was a moralist. He was an activist. You know he was conscience of the. person. I think that, you know, you. really uh touched on that, you know, very very uh exactly. But it's. interesting because we know Mark Twain. is a humorist and we tend to think of. him with the white suit and the the.

cigura. But Mark Twain um said a couple. of things about uh life. He said uh uh. life is a tragedy. uh with comedy distributed here and. there only to heighten and magnify the. pain by contrast. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And then he also said that life is a. fever dream with sweetness embittered by. sorrow and pleasure poisoned by pain. I. know you're all going to go off and jump. off a bridge after you know tell you.

these comments that uh he he made you. know. I mean uh you you have this quote and. this I underlined a few things in the. book because the it's it's this later. parts that really got to me. um at the. end of his life, he's pretty much. saying, "I didn't do any of this. This. was not, you know, you can't think of a. more self-made man." Yeah. There's. Lincoln, there's Twain, there's a couple. of like great self-made people. Yeah. Who just comes from absolute,

you know, nothing and and is this force. of nature, and you think, well, he. really made himself, and at the end of. his life, he's saying, I it was just. impulses, urges. I just did things and. now here I am and now my life's over and. it would all meant nothing. I mean, that's kind of his philosophy. You said. this here in his work. He thought he. bravely said what he knew to be true but. hadn't dared to voice. That the mind is. a machine. That we mistake instinct for. original thought. That free will is a.

farce. That our lives are predetermined. by outside forces. And that all acts are. selfishly motivated. And. it's it's funny that struck a chord with. me because the last couple of years I've. had this thought that's just been. rattling around my head where people. have said, "Hey, you know, you've you. know, you you've been around for a while. and you've done some cool things and I. think I didn't do any of it. I don't. know why the fuck." Sorry for the. language, but Sona does the writing. Um,

I've heard the language. Please, Mr. Sure. Now, I apologize. Sona. writes these things for me and I'm not. going to say this other stuff. Uh, would you please substitute with. breaches? Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, in my own opinion, I. think I can't explain any of it. I just. have had this crazy impulsive drives and. impulses and I maybe it is glandular. You know what I mean? At the end of the. day, what did I do? I don't know what I.

did, but and and certainly it's and it's. 1 one millionth of what Twain did, but. it's it's funny that at the end of his. life, he won't take credit for anything. and he thinks that we're all just in the. void. He's very. Yeah, he has this kind of deterministic. view that we're just kind of, you know, machines and their stimuli and we react. to it, that we're really not creating. anything. The funny thing is Conan you. know that someone reading that if it had. not been written by Mark Twain that. would have said well what about Mark. Twain Mark Twain would have been you.

know the best example of the fact that. there is true originality in the in the. world but he felt that even uh. Shakespeare and that's kind of a whole. other thing. Oh yeah he has this whole obsessive he's. obsessed with the idea that Shakespeare. didn't write any of it that it was all. Francis Bacon. Yeah. He actually gets up after uh. and and can't let it can't let that go. Oh no. can't let it go. Yeah. And and. and he gets up after he's he's he's. watching uh performance of Romeo and. Juliet with a friend and he gets up at. the end and he says to the friend that.

was the best thing Francis Bacon ever. wrote. You know, he was convinced that. his discovery that Francis Bacon had had. written it said it's the great discovery. of the age. You know, he wrote this. I couldn't help but wonder if it was a. little bit of professional jealousy. like you know, look, you know, there's. no way that guy did all that. Um. well he you know he he he loved the play. and I think what misled him is that you. know as Mark Twain became famous. reporters were constantly you know. flocking to Hannibal Missouri and other.

places that he had had lived. So like. everyone who ever knew Mark Twain was. interviewed 25 times. Um and he couldn't. figure out why there wasn't that same. kind of trove you know of anecdotes and. why weren't the people in Stratford. telling all these stories about um If. Shakespeare was doing all this, why. weren't they writing? Why aren't weren't. there anecdotes about there's so many. anecdotes about me there'd be that many. anecdotes about Shakespeare? And you're. like, well, no, no, it was it was. it was a different time.

Particularly, it was it was a different. media environment, you know, and his. life was covered so extensively uh and. you know, with the kind of a handful of. stories about uh Shakespeare, but if. Shakespeare lived in a different media. environment, you know, we would know. everything about him. But so you know. Mark Twain wrongly extrapolated. uh from it to Elizabeth and times but he. actually wrote this book called the. Shakespeare dead that he thought was. going to you know set the world on on. fire. It didn't. He also thought that um.

John Bunan had not written Pilgrim's. Progress. He thought John Milton was but. um. maybe he didn't write his own works and. just. this is his guilt. Yes. Yes. It was all Libby. It was all his wife. cranking it out. um. was Bret Hart. Yeah, Bret Hart did it all. He was dead. Uh but um I just, you know, it's funny. I think of if Twain were alive today, he'd be on the internet. He would be.

into every conspiracy he'd be. And also, talk about a guy who you'd have to keep. away from an infomercial, any popup ad, anything. And Twain would be like, "I've. got to have the abdominizer.". Why, that's the darn cuteness. That's. the best invention I've ever, you know, and Libby would be there saying, "You. bought 10,000 abdominis.". You know, uh, you know what I mean? I've. got to have those gels in my shoes.

A sneaker you can just step into. I've. got to have it. But I mean, you can just shake weight. I. got to have the shake weight. I got to have the shake weight. And you. got a gel like Mellin. I got a gel. I like the way that rolls. off the tongue. But he would just fall. prey to every, you know, every the word. would get around soon. This is the guy. As it does, as you know, uh, as these. programs start to know, oh, this sucker. is, you know, they're on to me. You. know, they know that I like, you know,

like a a new kind of leather wallet that. has like a little They're on to me. So, I'm just constantly bombarded with a new. way to a little travel gizmo. I'm. constantly being bombarded with those. cuz the the algorithm figures it out. They would have figured out Twain. Well, I'm so curious if you were live. today if I can get to ask you if I was. alive today that. that um with with with Mark Twain, there. was just no filter whatsoever. You know, there was no kind of political. correctness. He really felt as a sadist. that everything was fair game. So that.

for instance, you know, when he wrote. his first book, which turned out to be. his bestselling book called The. Innocence Abroad, you know, he went he. went with these tourists kind of early. tourist cruise to Europe and the Holy. Land and uh he's just sounding off on. all these things. They're in Italy and. he's making jokes about dwarves. Yeah. He said, you know, if if if you want to. see, you know, dwarfs retail, go to. Milan. If you want to see dwarfs. wholesale, go to Genua, you know, all of. these different things. Well, no one.

today would dare to make these sorts of. jokes. And he really felt that the whole. world was his, you know, field for uh. for humor. And I wonder how he would. function today, you know, where we're. much more sensitive, you know, about. offending different groups. Well, I mean, I think it's a it's it's a. really interesting area because, as you. know, you talk about it a lot in your. book, Huck Finn is very controversial. Yeah. On one hand, Ernest Hemingway call.

said the American literature begins with. Huck Finn and and many great writers. have said that is the first great great. truly great original uh American. uh creative uh novel. And then um but it's got the N word in. it countless times. Um, yet it also is. exploring a real relationship between. Jim and Huck and uh and and and Jim is.

not a cardboard character. Um, and so. but and the n-word is part of the. dialect of that time, but for that. reason, a lot of people say it should be. banned. It shouldn't be read or the word. should be removed. And you think um if. he were alive today, he'd be cancelled for things he did when. he's 20 years old. I mean, in his. personal correspondence, when he's. writing about race, when he's when he's.

before he's evolved. And that when I was. reading that I was thinking we live in. this era now where you know kids go. online and do things say things and they. get tagged. like you're the kid who said that you're. the kid that did this. You're the kid. that sang that. You're the kid. Um and I. don't know you know there wouldn't be a. Mark Twain. He'd have he'd have been you. couldn't ex he couldn't exist in a world.

that's. keeping account where anyone can say. wait a minute we just found something in. your personal correspondence or in a. speech you gave when you were 25 you're. canceled you're done. yeah you know Mark Twain is is is a type. of writer almost inconceivable today he. had no inhibitions he felt no need to. have any inhibitions. although he was puritanical about sex. very puritanical about sex. which I totally get. yeah uh and it's only late in life that. he starts to kind of I mean that's. another thing you bring up in the book.

and I don't know that we have the time. to go into it but. it's a it's a facet of his life late in. life he is hanging around a lot of young. women when I say young women ages what. like. 10 to 16. 10 to 16 and. and um what's interesting about it is. that there's no evidence that there was. anything. sexual about it. right. no one. Uh, and he seemed. he was depressed. I'm not making excuses.

because it was strange. Everyone noticed. it. Yeah. Um, what did he call them? He called. them his angelf fish. Oh god. Um, and so he's having and to the point. where his wife and his kids are saying. they're trying to suppress. um any of the information. you know, if. there's a if there's a if there's a. write up, he doesn't want the the young. kids around. But there is no evidence.

that it was anything other than him. playing pool with them and liking to. have them around because he loved the. attention of I mean, first of all, he. was fascinated with childhood. He loved. having the attention of these young. women who kind of adored him. Yeah. So, but it is kind of pathological. Yeah. No, abs. Absolutely. I mean, this. is kind of a good And who knows? We. don't I don't know it couldn't. kind of the difference between things. were perceived then and and and now cuz. he he collects and that was the term. that he used that he collected the a.

dozen of these girls he called them his. angelf fish uh they were became members. of his aquarium club. but they would come over with their mom. or their. he was very careful to incorporate the. mothers the grandmothers into this there. was nothing secretive he actually. flaunted it actually one of the girls uh. Darthothy Quick uh he met on the. transatlantic uh liner. And when it. docked to New York, there would always. be, you know, a scrum of reporters. waiting for Mark Twain in New York and. he gets off the the boat with this um.

11-year-old girl and the next day. newspapers across the country, you know, the headlines are Mark Twain captive of. little girl, you know, and people found. this a very kind of charming and. oh, Mark Twain, you know, he's written. beautiful books about American children. Of course, he he loves it. So far from. being secretive about it, you know, he. he he flaunted it. And in fact, I tell. the story in the uh in the book that one. of his uh friends um who was a famous.

actress, you know, came to dinner one. day dressed as a 12-year-old girl, you. know, with kind of buttons and bows and. everything cuz she wanted to be in one. of his angel fish. So this is the way it. was kind of handled. It was people. reacting in this kind of very jovial way. to it. Whereas we look at this behavior. now and it's you know very uh disturbing. very very you know um odd and disquing. he never acted on I mean it's very. different I when I was doing the. research I read a book about you know.

Louisis Carol in the case of uh Louisis. Carol where superficially might seem. similar but Louisis Carol you know. collected uh nude photos and nude. drawings of the girls you know there was. nothing like that with Twain what the. underlying dynamic was I really don't. know. Uh but he had kind of enough. control over himself. But he liked it. He would read aloud to them. They would. play pool together. He did announce. during his last three four years of. life. He said, "I've worked hard enough. in my life. I just now want to play, you.

know." So it was like kind of a a second. childhood. But it's really strange and. weird. I mean, I'm not here to defend it. at all. It's really kind of very creepy. And I think that everyone reads, you. know, the book will have that reaction. to it. But I also kind of have to uh. describe in fairness to him, you know, what it was and what it wasn't. That is one of the things that I really. love about the book is you're like. Twain, you're not afraid to go. everywhere. You're not afraid to look at. everything.

Yeah. You're clearly odd and impressed by this. guy. You are also um you're exploring. every nook and cranny. There are. he was fallible you know when I keep. saying he was people like to think of. him as this emoji he was a great you. know I'm think of people like Lynden. Johnson who embodied greatness but their. flaws are also great that you know which. has been so well documented by Carol. you had a wonderful line in your Kennedy. science speech you said talked about the.

colossal mess of being human you know. that's kind of what Twain is about you. know he was once asked how he knew so. much about human nature because He. traveled a lot. He'd let of a lot of. people. He said, "Oh, no, no, it's I. look into myself." He felt that every. human being has all of nature inside. himself or herself. And I think that. that's true. You know, that we can feel. that, you know, we act on certain. impulses, but we have inside of us. almost every impulse. I think it's why.

you even, you know, watch a movie about. some crime or something and we can sort. of imagine one side of oursel can. identify with it. We we control that. We. control. So you want to kill and kill again. We getting this. I've been accused of a lot of things not. yet of being a serial killer, but. somehow. Oh, hold on a second. I' I've got your. travel records. Uh some suspicious. behavior. Um well, the book is uh a. delight. Uh, you've done it again, Mark.

Twain. Uh, and um I. he's just I mean the sign to me of a. great biography is that there's no way. to completely capture this guy. But I. think I think this is going to be the. the standard bearer. I think you're. going to you need to read this book. You. need to read this book because it's not. just about Mark Twain. It's also about. America. It's also about where we were. then and it's also somewhat about where. we are now. So, I I congratulate you and.

uh huge thrill to have you on the. podcast because um I love this stuff. I feel like it's it's it's a privilege. to to be with you and the whole group. today and I feel like you really have. done honor to the book and to to Mark. Twain and so thank you for reading it. and reading it so closely and. attentively. It's really been a great. experience. Oh, I guess we all win then.