Malcolm Gladwell: Will & Grace Broke Every Rule | Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend

you talk about Will and Grace oh yeah. yeah and um there were these very. perceived rules about if you're going to. talk about homosexuality gay couples uh. on a television here are the rules and. there was this way in which that it has. to be done responsibly and and Will and. Grace didn't follow any of those rules. yes so there this is all this work of. I've ran across this really wonderful TV. scholar. named Bonnie da who does this analysis. of the way that Hollywood talked about. uh first she starts with uh the way that.

Hollywood talked about women's issues so. remember that wave of kind of feminist. Show starting in the 70s Mary Tyler. Moore Show Roa Al yeah all KAG KAG La is. that yes I think that's part of that. yeah and she points out that you would. think watching those that those were. shows that were kind of pro women's. Liberation or whatever feminist but they. follow a very implicit an implicit set. of rules about how a woman is allowed to.

proceed she says that in every case the. women was only allowed to succeed in a. if she was succeeding in a man's world. and she all of those Heroes were. childless and not in a relationship so. the the the real message of that of. those shows were yes you can you can get. ahead if you're a woman but only if you. give up any chance of having a family. right there's no Domesticity there's no. Domesticity so it's like so it's not. really are those shows Pro feminist or.

when you watch them do you think oh wow. that's the price I have to pay if I want. to participate then she says there's a. similar set of rules about the way. Hollywood dealt with uh gay topics and. the rule was the uh homosexuality was. always a problem to be solved in other. words the plot surrounding the gay. person had to turn on the fact that. everyone else in that person's life was. trying to fix all of the crisis that. have been caused by uh that this person.

sexuality the the the uh gay character. um was only ever seen in isolation so. they didn't have a community they didn't. have they weren't in a relationship they. didn't have they were just off by. themselves it was like the typical one. would be you find out your 16-year-old. son is gay right and so the whole family. is left to deal with this intense. problem um another rule was no sex so. you can't ever see.

what this thing is about you're you're. it's all always an abstraction and um. the uh oh and then the last one was that. the the um the gay character cannot be. the center of the narrative they have to. be peripheral to the narrative narrative. is about so you know you you you add. these up and you get you could you could. watch a made for T movie that might be. on its face might be quite sensitive and. sympathetic to the gay character but all. all these rules are telling the audience.

that this guy's off in the margins he's. on the fringes he's incapable of. participating fully in Modern Life right. so and there's a wonderful book uh this. film scholar does a book where he looks. at every single film from 19 like 1940. to. 1975 that had or 1980 that had a gay. character and he just shows like every. single one of them meets a bad end they. either are killed commit suicide end up.

in prison or like every single one. there's like 48 characters and like. every one of them and what happens with. Will and Grace is that Will and Grace. comes along and breaks every one of. those rules so. Will's uh gayness is not a problem to be. solved right never it's never perceived. to be a problem he's he's never he's not. seen in is also it's Will and Grace so. he's number one on the call sheet he's. not periperal he's not peripheral he has. Jack and he has boyfriends he's part of. a community you know go on on he he's.

he's a center of the show he's not a. he's not and the effect of that so if. you if you're someone who's watched TV. your whole life and all you've seen is. gay characters in this very specific. context where there's something deeply. problematic about them and all of a. sudden you're exposed to a show where. there's a gay character and there's. nothing I mean he has problems but. they're not problems related to his. sexuality he's just a neurotic just. another neurotic he's like the rest of. us he's got problems we all have yeah. living in an apartment in New York which.

is what all sitcoms were about in those. years right right the so it's there's. something with that show that kind of uh. that is that is a revolutionary show it. completely rewrites the rules I think. you know it's always a fun experiment to. say what are the five most important. television shows of the last 50 years. and I think I think Will and Grace is. like I would put it I don't know second. third I think it's I don't think it's I.

think it's ahead of Archie Bunker I. think it's you know they always say 60. minutes is one and like I usually get. three I'm usually three your show Late. Night with Conor bran is usually three. huh are we are we in the real world or. in my reality yeah cuz I like my reality. and in my reality I think mermaid is. perfect merma um I should not have. lasted so hardly at your. suggestion I don't know what you find so. funny it's I'm always like three or four. but I know what you're saying um I think. you're top 10 yeah thank you.