You’re So Good At Conversation! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. and there's Chuck. >> I'm Chuck. >> Oh man, already. >> Yeah, you know. Thought it was apppropo. [Music]. >> Oh, it's my turn to talk. >> Yeah. Oh, well played.

>> I'm not very good at this as you know if. you have ever listened to the podcast. and I know you have because you're one. of the co-hosts. You know that I step on. you a lot. >> No. >> Yep. I'll keep going with my turn. constructional unit then. How how. confused are people do you think right. now? >> I don't know. Probably Barry. I mean we. should say this is all just a bit to. sort of demonstrate a conversational. analysis. >> Yeah. Uh well, now we're demonstrating.

the analysis. Uh if someone was sitting. in another room making notes about how. we were talking. >> like a creep. >> Yeah, that would be conversational. analysis. We were just demonstrating. poor uh communication. >> pretty much. But it would be a bonanza. for a conversation analyst, a CA as they. like to call themselves. This is a super. super niche field of science. I guess it. would be a social science because it. branched off from sociology. But one of the things that I've noticed. about it is that people like to try to.

push it into a typical social science, right? Like come up with some theories. like why do people do these things that. you guys are studying? And conversation. analysis says no, we're not going to do. that. Instead, we are purely about. observation, noticing patterns, and then. figuring out how those patterns predict. other patterns and how all these. different patterns fit together in this. grand way to make up conversation. And.

you might say, "Well, that's pretty. boring, wouldn't you, Chuck?". >> Uh, I mean, I'll let you finish and then. I'll give you my take. >> Okay. Uh, you might say it's pretty. boring if you were Chuck. The reason why. it's interesting is because it reveals. something about us. That conversation is. one of those things that we're really, really good at without realizing what. we're doing. That conversation is an. amazing interaction between two or more. people um that gets stuff done, that. shares information that you can make a.

case. Basically, our entire human. civilization is based on the fact that. we're able to converse pretty much. effortlessly. Even though in a lot of. times it just does not make sense. >> Yeah. My deal with this is I I'll get. through this episode and then I want to. wipe it from my memory bank because I'm. one of those people that the last thing. I want to think about is how I'm. conversing with somebody. And it reminds. me of that that scene in Better Off Dead.

when uh early on John Cusack is having. like his early a flashback I think to. his first meeting with his girlfriend. >> and where they're in his head and he's. like, "Oh, she just touched her nose. Uh. does that mean I have something on my. face?" And then she's like, "Oh, he just. touched his face. Do do I have mustard. on my face or something like that?". >> And then before you know it, they're. just going crazy. And that's kind of. what this does to me is. >> I don't want to think about like I I'm. very much am organic when it comes to. stuff like this. And the last thing I. want to think about is did I say that.

right or did I interrupt somebody or did. was I did I act interested enough like. that kind of thing just I have no place. for that in my life. >> That's funny because that is almost a. 100% of what goes on in my mind when I'm. talking or when someone else is talking. Like I can't help but do that. >> I know. And I know that and I feel for. you for that cuz that can't be fun. >> It's really tiring. >> My bad. >> So, okay. This is like potentially a a.

careerending topic pick that I made. Huh. >> No, no, no, no. I just, you know, it's. interesting and then I just don't want. to ever think about it again. >> Okay. Well, do a good job doing that and. I'm sorry for even picking it. Well, let's dive into all this because it is. interesting in and of itself. even. though it is a really strange discipline. in the way that it's set up. >> Yeah, they it draws from a couple of. fields primarily. Um Libya helped us. with this one and I can tell because. it's awesome. >> Uh ethno methodology and that is um it.

it's studying how people not just how. they make sense of the world but how. they do it in relation to others and how. they collaborate with others, >> right? Uh and then socio linguistics. which is language but not just language. language specifically um with like how. it relates in specific cultures in the. context of different cultures. And there. were three key players and researchers. uh doing this in the 1970s. mainly.

>> Yeah. >> Uh at UCLA go Bruins. >> Uh the first one is a sociologist named. Harvey Saxs and he seems to have kind of. been the the ring leader here. He's the. the grand papappy of conversation. analysis. >> Mhm. >> Uh he started UCLA in the 60s but really. got into this in the mid70s. >> Yeah. And he stopped in the 70s because. the poor guy died in a car crash at 40. years old in 1975. And he really only. worked on this for just over a decade. But he he figured it out. He laid this.

down. And part of it um was that he. benefited from working closely with some. other sociologists including Irving. Gooffman who was the star of our. impression management episode and I. think that might have been where I first. heard of conversation analysis. >> and then um so he was working with Irvin. Gooffman. um they weren't doing the same. thing, but they were both coming from. that same strain of sociology, which is. it was really transitional at the time. from studying huge institutions like.

religion or government and zooming into. a much more granular almost micro. interaction level. So that's what. Gooffman was into with impression. management. Harvey Saxs was into that. with conversation. >> Yeah. Uh he didn't publish a lot of. stuff. This wasn't like white paper. peer-reviewed kind of stuff. that was. mainly like, you know, sort of pre-EDT. talk kind of thing, like, "Hey, isn't. this interesting? Um, here's my. lectures. I'm going to make them. available. You can take a gander if you. want,". >> right? >> Uh, then there was a student of Saxs.

named Gail Jefferson there at UCLA. >> who was a dance major, >> but had this interesting job. She worked. as a typist for the Department of Public. Health, and part of that included. transcribing sensitivity training. sessions with prison guards. And so she. got really interested in a very kind of. key part of conversation was something. called turn taking when you, you know, take turns talking. And a lot of this. will be about like cues that people give. to let the other person know, hey, now. it's your turn to speak.

>> or how to interject constructively or. interrupt constructively, things like. that. But that seemed to kind of. fascinate her when she was transcribing. these uh training sessions with the. prison guards. And so she got interested. in that. Um she ended up developing a. whole system called the Jefferson. transcription system. >> Yeah. >> Uh which we're going to talk about a. little bit. Basically how to kind of. make sense of all this stuff uh when. you're you know writing down how people. are speaking to one another. And then.

later on it's kind of interesting. I. think she um worked with laughter. She. was fascinated by laughter and how that. works its way into a conversation and. how someone may cue someone to laugh at. something they've even said themselves. by giving a small laugh after they've. said that thing. >> Yeah. Um. >> uh the third guy is Emanuel Shegloff and. he seems to have kind of taken the. reigns after Harvey Saxs passed away. That's my take. Um, he became the chair.

of the conversation analysis department. at UCLA, which seems to be the center of. conversation analysis from what I can. tell. He also received a lifetime. achievement award from the American. Sociological Association in 2010. >> So, he was a big man on campus. essentially. >> Yeah, he was a big brewin on campus. But. he uh they they kind of started out and. got uh you know with kind of the simpler. side of things which is like hey let's. look at telephone calls and just just.

sort of everyday interactions with. people um like what do people say at the. beginning of a phone call? What do. people say at the end of a phone call? >> Uh and this is sort of the the bird's. eye view of like just very basic. interactions before they got more. specific with their uh observations I. guess. >> Yeah. But also, one of the genius things. about studying phone calls is how do two. people who aren't looking at each other. know when it's their turn to talk and. they don't just Exactly. And they don't.

just sit there and talk over one another. constantly and it's just one big jumbled. mess. That's what I was talking about. earlier. We're really good at. conversation. We don't even realize it. >> Yeah. >> But one of the first things you have to. do then is is not just record the phone. call. You have to transcribe it. And. that's what Gail Jefferson came up with. was that method of transcribing that. it's pretty clever. If you know what. you're looking at, you can get a lot of. information from this transcription if. it's used the the Jefferson method. >> Yeah. And this was like, you know, this.

came around the early '7s. This is when. uh linguist Nam Chomsky was kind of out. there in the public sphere. >> uh with his idea that there's a. universal grammar. And this doesn't, you. know, this didn't set out to disprove. that or anything like that. It was. really more of uh let's look at. different cultures and dynamics within a. conversation because Chsky and you know. some of his cohorts was like you know. conversations are just you can't analyze. this kind of stuff systematically the.

conversations are too irregular and too. different between people and they were. like no I think we can actually come up. with some principles that are consistent. enough to do it and I think they did. >> totally and one of the first projects. that they started um one of Harvey. Sach's projects was um he worked with a. a psychiatric hospital, an emergency. psych psychiatric hospital. So, their. work's pretty urgent um you can imagine. And one of the things that they wanted. to figure out was how to get patients to.

give them their name when they called. in. Yeah. Because there was a certain. amount of reluctance as you can imagine, especially back in the mid to late60s. >> Yeah. they found out when a call uh was. answered at one of these places, they. would say if they said just hello, the. person might just say hello. >> But if they said, well, hi, this is uh. this is Dr. Charles Bryant. Uh what can. I do for you today? May I help you? >> That the people were much more inclined. to then respond by saying, oh, well, this is also Charles Bryant, and I'm.

calling because I'm having some some. intrusive thoughts or something like. that. >> Right? And then the receptionist would. go, "Ha, I got you. I got your name. We. know your name now. >> Yeah. Uh sometimes they found that. people would not respond in kind with. their name. And in those cases, uh it. it's pretty interesting. And this, you. know, kind of provided another little. nugget of information for how these. things go. >> Yeah. >> Uh when they did not say, "Oh, yeah. My. name's Chuck and I'm having, you know, intrusive thoughts," they would sort of.

uh introduce like an in like a a. disruptor. They would say something. like, "Huh?" or "What?" And just a small. little bump in the road to change the. conversational flow, >> right? >> Subtly kind of saying like I don't want. to give you my name without saying I. don't want to give you my name, >> right? Because what they found, conversation analysts found was that we. follow set patterns, these kind of. prescribed rhythms of conversations. So. if you interrupt um a a this the flow of.

one type of conversation with say a huh. a new set of rules comes up that that. takes the conversation from there that. both people are aware of but don't. realize they're aware of. Um which to me. I I hadn't thought about it but if. you've ever said huh to somebody when. you knew full well what they had just. said you were just reflexively trying to. derail or disrupt that that type of. script in favor of a different one. never realized that before, but it makes. sense. >> Or maybe by time even, but it's it's. just some sort of a disruptor to divert.

something for some reason. >> Um Sax identified another um thing. called composits and they're phrases. that that are kind of combined as a unit. and it usually is a prompt for some kind. of response. Like if someone says, "May. I help you?" like that on the telephone. that what they're then obviously is. asking you for a response to let you. know what's going on. And in the case of. like an emergency call center, they. might literally respond to may I help. you by saying I don't know. And that.

what they found was is it wasn't like. like that was a reasonable response. Like somebody might literally say like I. don't I don't know if you can help me. and it needed to be sort of taken at. face value like that, >> right? What they what that suggested. that Saxs discovered was that there were. these composits where if you're saying. may I help you, you don't mean it at. face value. It's a part of a I think. what would be called later an adjacent. pair where you prompt you say something. that's a prompt and there's an expected.

like range of responses to it and. anything outside of that is like okay. that makes sense on paper but it doesn't. make sense conversationally. And he kind. of supported this with the idea um he. wrote in a 1975 paper that everybody has. to lie. >> Yeah. >> And he used the example of um like a a. greeting among people meeting on the. street where you say like how are you. doing? And if the person says anything. other than fine or great or good, they.

have just violated this this type of. composite prompt. You're not supposed to. say anything else. And even more. interesting than this, Chuck, is that um. they seem to um have found that this is. actually universal. It's not just like. among Americans or English speakers or. Germans or anything like that. It's. everybody essentially does not want to. know how you're actually doing. >> Yeah. And I found that that's a a very. good indicator of closeness and how you. know that you've developed a true like.

closeness with someone else like a. friendship or whatever. Uh because. that's much more of a formal thing. If. even if you know somebody but don't know. them that well, you'll say, "Oh, like, oh yeah, I'm doing fine." They're like, "Oh, pretty good." Right? >> But if it's somebody you really know and. you're close to, you don't have to lie. Uh you can very easily say, "I'm super. tired." Or, "I'm not doing great because. XYZ." Yeah. >> Yeah. If you find somebody who actually. does want to know how you're doing, you. hang on to that person, >> right? Or if you meet someone out of the.

blue and say, "How you doing?" and they. start in with the truth, then just walk. away, >> right? maybe even jog away. >> Yeah. Red flag. >> Uh so one of the other big uh. breakthroughs was came along when um you. could rent VCRs. >> um and they had giant um recording. equipment like the kind they used in. Poltergeist. That changed conversation. analysis where now all of a sudden you. could see all the stuff that goes along. with it. It wasn't just telephone calls. from disembodied voices. You could see. how people interacted and it it opened.

up this whole new world. For sure. Should we take a break? >> I knew you were going to say that. >> All right, we'll be right back. >> Stuckset. Stuckset. Say one more time. >> Stuckset. I don't know. >> You know it's stuckset. >> Is that in this? Stucks. >> Stuckset. It's a great name. >> Stuckset. >> That's the name of it. >> It's a great name. >> All right. >> Stuckset with an with an X. [Music].

You know, before we broke, you talked. about the huge cameras, and I'm I'm. reading Matthew Modí's diary uh of. making. >> uh Full Metal Jacket. >> You know, the actor Matthew Modí. >> Of course, I know exactly what you're. talking about, but number one, I can't. believe there is such a thing. And. number two, I can't believe you're. reading it. >> Oh, it's great. It's his diary when he. was making the movie. Casey actually got. it for me when we were doing Movie. Crush. It was a very sweet gift. But he.

at one point he was talking about uh um. having to put yourself on tape for an. audition and which is something. routinely done all the time now, especially since the writer strikes and. COVID and stuff, but. >> he was like, "It's just such a pain. You. got to know somebody who has one of. those huge video cameras and you have to. go to their studio and blah blah blah.". I was just like, it was very cute and. quaint. >> Yeah. My niece Mila has to do that a. lot. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's It's super It's kind of. the way it's done now. >> For sure. Sure. But yeah, I imagine it's. a it's I don't know which would be.

worse, doing it live in front of people. or doing it in front of a recording that. you're getting zero feedback from. >> The every actor I knows hates putting. themselves on tape. They would much. rather be in the room. >> Gotcha. Because they're all energy. vampires, >> right? Exactly. So, um, one of the things I kind of. alluded to earlier is that conversation. analysis is not a standard social. science and that it doesn't develop. theories of why people are doing these. things or why you said this when. somebody else said that. Again, they're.

just looking for patterns. They're. looking at its structure. >> And the cool thing about it is that that. doesn't mean that they're not deriving. any meaning. They're not postulating. what it means. Like for example, they're. not going up to two listeners or two. speakers. >> and they go to speaker number two and. say, "What do you think speaker number. one meant when they said, "How are you. doing?". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> They just analyze the conversation and. based on speaker two's response, that. tells the the conversation analysts what.

speaker number two thought speaker. number one was saying. So just by. examining it, they can come up with. meaning or derive meaning from it. Um, and again, it's just not like other. social sciences, and it seems to really. stick in the crawl of everybody else. I. love it. >> Yeah. They also didn't want to they. wanted to be as organic as possible and. just have people have naturally uh. natural conversations with with each. other rather than orchestrating some big. like scenarios. >> Um, you do have to just because of um.

scientific ethics and stuff, you have to. tell people they're being recorded. So, you can't truly be just a fly on the. wall. But they did find that um just the. introduction of um a recording device. they they didn't feel like and I think. they've shown um through evidence that. it didn't really significantly change. things enough to where the the result. was like thrown out or whatever. >> Right. Right. Uh and like we said that. that when you um are beginning a. conversation analysis, you start with a.

recording of a conversation. Nowadays. it's with videotapes. um and then you transcribe it. And one. of the big things in conversation. analysis is when you transcribe it, you. need to do it as objectively as. possible. You need to keep out your own. subjective thoughts about who did what. and just just faithfully say this was an. interruption. This was a TCU. This. person took a break breath in the middle. of their word. Um Josh just said uh he. corrected himself in the middle of the.

sentence. So he just used a repair and. notate all this stuff without any um. subjective input from you and then you. go back and you analyze it after it's. been fully transcribed. >> Yeah. And so you've been very cleverly I. might say uh subtly dropping in little. little words here and there that people. are like what's he talking about with. this stuff? That's the stuff that. they're looking for and that's the stuff. that they named like things that like in. in common parliament we we know some of.

these things like rejoinders and. interruptions and things like that but. you know they're analysts so they took. it a step further and uh here are some. of those right now. Uh one of them is. called a turn constructional unit TCU. obviously not Texas Christian University. >> frogs horn toads. >> horn frogs I think. >> something like that. Yeah, >> tree frogs. >> I think that's it. Uh, but turn. constructional units are the building. blocks of any conversation of every. conversation.

>> and it can be a just a a gesture like a. nod at somebody. It can be multiple. sentences, but they end up with what's. called a transition relevance place, a. TRP. And that is a moment where like. what you've said has ended and someone. else may have a turn to speak now or you. may say something else after that and. that's just you taking um another turn. basically and having uh two turn. constructional units in a row.

>> And so what just right after you said in. a row that's where the transition re. relevance place was. That was it because. it gave me a chance to start talking and. everything you said leading up to it was. the turn constructional unit. That was. your turn. >> You took your turn in the conversation. There was a pause that allowed me to. start taking my turn. And that's that's. the basic building blocks of a. conversation. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> See, you're good at this. >> There's also when I analyze it. Sure.

Um, there's also like a lot of different. um I guess rules or exceptions or. whatever. Like you could say you could. use two turns in a row without really. allowing for a transition relevance. place. That pause that allows the other. speaker to start for example. Um, you. could say, uh, are you hungry? I could. go for a burger. You actually just took. two turns like a big fat hog. >> without any pause in the middle. Um, and.

yet that's not considered like any sort. of violation of conversation. It's just. again it's like an exception. It's a. it's a way that we've kind of we're so. good at conversation we can show off by. taking two turns in a row and not mess. up the flow of conversation. >> Yeah, exactly. If it's um and we have to. point out too that a lot of times they. were looking at conversations between. just two people, but you can also. analyze conversations in groups. It's. just sort of a different beast. But in. conversations with more than two people. at that transition relevance place where.

it it's probably someone else's turn to. talk. Uh like if you're in a group of. people at a dinner party and you're. telling a story, it's very common to. like finish up the story and not just. stare blankly into space, but you finish. up the story and maybe look at one. particular person. And there may be a. reason for that. Maybe it's it's your. person or maybe it's the person you. originally sort of uh started the story. in reference to what this other person. was saying. So, you'll kind of turn it. back to them. But, you know, that's one. way you can sort of indicate like, hey,

now I'm looking at you and that they may. not speak at that point. It may, you. know, someone else may jump in. It just. sort of depends, >> right? You could also make a finger gun. and go at that person. >> and they and they'll take over. Uh, one. of the things I laughed a minute ago. when you talked about staring blankly at. the ceiling. It's so silly when you when. you just you just take out like a proper. response and put in something else. It. just makes me laugh every time because. it's so prescribed like this. These.

scripts are so prescribed that doing. anything other than that is is just. absurd and hilarious. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a it's like hidden. camera material, you know. So, I mentioned that I I uh I think I. corrected myself. I actually it it's. considered an interruption when I. misspoke and said breath weirdly and. then said it again correctly right. after. I actually interrupted myself and. I referred to that as a repair. mechanism. Yeah, >> that's exactly what it is. Because one.

of the unsung parts of human interaction. and conversation is that we have to have. ways of correcting and adjusting. misunderstandings. If we didn't, we would be able to. converse, but two people would walk away. from the conversation potentially with. totally different understandings of the. information that was just exchanged. Right? So, we have to be able to um. correct ourselves when we know we made a. mistake. And then also conversely, we. need to be able to ask for clarification.

if we didn't understand what the person. was saying. >> Yeah. Or someone else may ask for that. clarification or something like that. So. the repair doesn't have to come. It's. not necessarily a self-repair always, >> right? But it doesn't mean like going to. the person and being like, I'm really. sorry and I'm not going to do this. anymore and here's how we're going to do. it better from this point forward. Not. that kind of repair. >> Uh there are also gaps. the something to. identify when they're analyzing. conversations and we all know what that. is that um I believe I always call them.

and friends have called them awkward. pauses. >> uh when it's not clear who the next. speaker going to is going to be um and. that can happen like you know you can. and and even with groups of close. friends in a very social situation. In. fact, I feel like that's when it's most. sort of noticeable is when like you're. at a dinner party and something and. everyone's laughing and saying things. and then everyone just draws a blank for. a couple of beats. Sure. >> And then someone will usually say like. awkward pause or something like that and. and not say like that's a technically. it's a conversation gap.

>> That's I think a good a good replacement. now because awkward pause is so used up. just be like conversation gap. >> Um so it can be uncomfortable when it. happens natural naturally like that like. every everybody's just kind of run out. of things to say about whatever that. conversation was. It's even more. uncomfortable when somebody misses their. turn to speak, >> right? They don't clearly. >> Yes. Or they don't give any sort of. response, right? Um that is that can.

cause a gap. Um and a lot of times you. um can signal that by like repeating the. question you just asked. Um saying the. uh the punchline one more time, >> right? >> Saying something like, "What do you what. do you think about that?" A prompting. thing. And then there's also nonverbal. uh ways of signaling gaps like putting. both hands in the air and going into a. forward lunge. >> Right. I've always found that if the. joke doesn't go over, just merely. repeating the punch line again always. works.

>> Exactly. Over and over and over again. >> You may not have heard me right. >> Uh adjacency pairs. I think you might. have mentioned that, but that's when um. uh when a specific kind of response is. expected. So like how's it going? Hey, I'm doing pretty good. Um, they're also. a lot of times referred to as. pre-sequences. So, just sort of like. it's sort of like a pad answer almost. >> Yeah. Like, come in, won't you? Thank. you. That'd be invitation, acceptance, greeting, greeting, question, answer.

Um, there's a actually a lot of those. that that those are the ones that are. maybe even silliest when you replace it. Like if somebody says, "Would you like a. slice of cake?" And you go, "Hello.". >> Right? >> It doesn't work. Well, what if you went hello? >> Exactly. I was going to say the same. thing like we've figured out ways around. that you can massage the rules and get. even more creative with the whole thing. that you could use something that's. totally inappropriate and make it. appropriate. The the best thing about.

something that funny is explaining it to. death. >> All right. Here, ask me for cake one. more time. I got one more. >> Okay. Would you like a slice of cake? >> Go yourself. That works. It kind of works to an. extent for sure. >> Uh stories is another one when you. mentioned the staring into space uh at. the end of like a question to you. That. can also happen at the end of a story if. you don't know what you're doing as a as. a communicator. >> Um when you start a story, you a lot of.

time give an indicator that you know. that it's going to be you for a minute. or two uh by saying something like did I. ever tell you about or something like. that. >> Yeah. get a load of this or I tell you. what happened to me and then you start. your sort of story and usually you will. end it by kind of looking in someone's. direction and that's when you should. sort of acknowledge by either saying. like oh man that's so funny or just. something like that and not just stare. blankly back at somebody. >> So I I have I'm guilty of doing that.

especially before I started treating my. ADHD. My mind would wander very very. easily when somebody was telling a story. and I would know that I really missed it. when the person would look at me and. then have to feel like they had to. explain why I should be reacting more. than I am. >> and then I'd be like, "Oh yeah, that. really sucks that that happened to you.". It was not It doesn't really make for. good interactions. Really makes people. want to stay away from you. >> Oh, Josh really dug that one, huh?

>> Right. Like, huh? What? Um because yeah, you don't say, "Huh, what? I wasn't. paying attention." You try to play it. off and that actually makes it worse. >> Yeah. Um there are discourse markers uh. and they're just sort of words or. phrases like um like or organizationally. um help out like oh or uh because and. you're usually like connecting something. to something that came before it, >> right? And then the last one is a. laminated action which is um when you. combine it with a gesture that it it.

doesn't just change the meaning it. actually completes the meaning. Yeah. Um. Livia gave an example of when you say oh. yeah I've met him and you roll your eyes. right if you just say oh yeah I've met. him ex even that same inonation it. doesn't tell the person what you. actually think about them and you roll. your eyes then they get the whole. picture. You've met them, you've judged. them, you can't stand them, you wish. they were dead, dead, dead. >> Yeah, good eye roll can say all those.

things. >> Exactly. Uh should we take another break now or. keep going? >> Uh let's talk about overlap maybe and. then we can take a break. That feels. about right. >> Good idea. >> Uh so overlap is um a really really like. I feel like conversation analysts just. sort of light up whenever there's an. overlap that they can witness. uh they. get pretty turned on by that kind of. thing. Um one common form is just like. uh just a simple misunderstanding like I. didn't know that your turn was over. I'm.

sorry. Uh it's not the same thing as. interruption. Uh those are two different. things, but um interruption is like when. you stop in the middle of like stop. somebody in the middle of their sentence. and talk over them. And overlap is just. when someone stops talking and had. something else to say maybe and you you. start on your own train. Yeah, that's. the thing I think I do the most to you. I think you're done and then I keep. talking or I start talking. Um, that is uh yeah, that's just.

straight up interruption, unintentional. There is such a thing as intentional. interruption where somebody's trying to. like gain control or dominate a. conversation, >> aka total jerks, >> right? >> There's also a different kind of um. interruption which is a cooperative. interruption. Like when I say write to. you while you're telling a story, I'm. actually interjecting it while you're. still using your turn. You're you're. making a turn construction unit. >> uh. >> unit. Um but I'm helping you along at.

the very least demonstrating I'm. listening and participating in the. conversation which makes it cooperative. >> Yeah. And those are just fine. Um, you. can interrupt people all the time in the. middle of their story and even add to it. if you're uh if you can um like maybe. you'll interrupt and say like uh if. somebody was telling a story about. driving their car, you know, it's like. you know it was a guy what kind of car. was he driving and they'll say, "Oh, a. BMW." And then everyone's like, "Yeah.". And they may have left out that detail.

So that's all just sort of active. participation in the conversation. >> Precisely. Uh we're also. >> No, no shade toward BMW drivers, by the. way. I'm not sure why I said that car. >> Um, we're also so good at this whole. thing that um, we can interrupt while. someone's telling a story without taking. away from the story. Uh, for example, if. you're sitting there having dinner with. somebody and they're telling a story and. you say, "Hey, pass the potatoes.". >> Right? >> It doesn't actually like derail the. conversation and the person's not. offended. Um, you're just you're just.

fitting that in there so you can eat the. potatoes and enjoy them while you're. hearing the story, too. Yeah. And that's. that could happen even I mean dinner. part is such a good sort of experiment. because it's everyone's seated around. and looking at each other and all these. uh conversations are happening that you. can even do that to someone else at the. table during someone's story if the. potatoes are closer. >> but you might do it in a hush tone like. during the middle of their story. Hey, can you pass the potatoes? Yeah. >> And that person may even go they're so. good. >> So. >> like something like that.

>> What kind of potatoes did you imagine. when I said pass the potatoes? >> Mashed. Did you I I for some reason um. thought of steamed or baked red potatoes. and then I was like those are no good so. I changed it to scallop potatoes which. are great. >> Oh man, you overthink everything, don't. you? >> I I I totally do. And then I thought. about human makes really good scallop. potatoes and it just kind of kept going. from there. >> I wonder what Chuck's talking about. right now. >> Right. Exactly. No, I was listening too.

That is a bit of a talent. I can listen. and do that at the same time. >> Okay. What. >> exactly? Uh, I think this is kind of. really interesting. There's a Georgetown. University linguist named Deborah Tannon. who did a fun little experiment where. she transcribed conversations between. two Californians, three New Yorkers, and. a Londoner. And this should come as no. surprise, New Yorkers talked over. everybody. And when they did it with the. fellow New Yorker, the other New Yorker. just kept talking and they were just.

sort of talking over each other. And. they were still enthusiastic and having. a good time. But when a New Yorker. talked over a Californian or a Londoner, they would stop talking. Other people, you know, when they went back and looked. at it, others viewed it as like these. New New Yorkers are dominating the. conversation. They just want to take. over anytime I said anything. >> The New Yorkers were just like, "Hey, it's all good. This is what we do." Mhm. >> And they found that uh as far as New. Yorkers and the New Yorkers also thought. that um like no one joined in like when.

they stopped talking they were like well. I guess they didn't want to talk or. whatever because they're not. interrupting me. >> Right. Exactly. >> But they did find that um other scholars. have found that there are these New York. like patterns in other cultures uh. Samoan Japanese and Italian American. And so that's why every Italian American. New York family all they do is just sit. around and scream over each other all. the time. >> Right. And Japanese stood out to me and. I'm like that doesn't sound right. And. then I thought of um have you ever seen. a Japanese like morning talk show?

>> Oh sure. Yeah. So the the somebody like. a guest or an some other anchor or. something will be talking and then one. of the hosts will interject usually a. question before the person has finished. talking and the person stops saying what. they were saying and um answers that. question and adjusts without being. offended at all. So it actually happens. quite a bit um and usually toward the. end of a sentence or a story or. something like that. But it does happen. a lot. Whereas American English.

speakers, you are done speaking, then. the person starts speaking or else you. have transgressed on that person's turn. >> For sure. Should we take a break? >> Yeah. >> All right. We'll take a break and finish. up right after this. >> Stuckset. Stuckset. >> Say one more time. >> Stuckset. >> I don't know. >> You know it's stuckset. >> Is that in this? Stuckset. >> Stuckset. It's a great name. >> Stuckset. >> That's the name of it. >> It's a great name. >> All right. Stuckset with an with an X. [Music].

Uh so we we talked about how um like all. of these are scripts or templates like. there's you say something and there's a. predictable response and there's. actually um you can boil it down to what. are called families. So like different. types of conversations fall into. different kinds of families. Um the big. ones that we've seen are reconstruction,

moralizing and projection, right? >> Yeah. Reconstruction, you know, obviously uh reconstructing or. remembering and sharing something about. an event with somebody. >> Uh the projective is looking to the. future. >> Yeah. >> Uh could be very specific like where we. going to dinner or just more like. sitting around and chatting out loud. about like the real future. Uh and then. what was moral communication about good. and good and bad? >> Yeah, it's more about tearing people. down or or complimenting people. And we.

are we tend way more toward negativity, tearing people down. >> um rather than building people up. >> And our tearing people down types of. genres are way more intricate and. sophisticated than our our building. people up or complimenting because we. have a negative bias as a species. That's depressing. >> So, we'll outgrow it one day. Just give. us several tens of thousands of years.

>> Yeah. So, at the beginning, we kind of. talked to I think we gave an example of. how this might be used um like on the. job or something and sort of practical. applications do involve that for sure. Like you might be hired by a company to. come in and consult when that company. does like has kind of the same kind of. conversation over and over with people. Like if it's a surgical team or a call. center, for sure. Whenever you hear this. call may be recorded for training and. evaluation purposes, that's that's. probably what they're doing right there.

Or maybe just judging their own. employees and how they're doing on the. job, >> right? For sure. Um they've also found. um you can help people get certain types. of responses that you're looking for. Like we talked about the emergency. psychiatric hospital um where they. wanted to get the person's name and then. trick them into it. Um, there was a guy. uh named John Heritage, unsurprisingly. from UCLA uh who worked with doctors to. figure out how they could get patients. to volunteer more um problems that they.

needed help with. And they found that. doctors who say, "Is there anything else. that you need help with today?". Apparently, anything triggers a. response, a predictable response, which. is no. But if you change anything to. something that uh for some reason that. particular script or template uh opens. up the possibility of sharing more. information and you would just never. figure that out and this is one of the. sterling examples of how conversation. analysts like actually help things.

change for the better. >> Yeah, that was well said. >> Thank you. Way to go. John Heritage at. all. uh a woman named Elizabeth Stoko of the. London School of Economics and Political. Science um found this when she studied. conversations in a mediation service um. that people it seems like in this case. people just kind of wanted to get down. to brass tax on what actually they did. They didn't want to hear things like. well we don't take sides here and we.

don't judge. They really wanted to hear. just sort of the step-by-step process of. mediation and how it worked. >> Yeah. She also works with um companies. that are trying to install customer. service bots. And I was reading about. that. It's not going very well. >> I bet. >> people hate customer service bots. >> and there's a there's a Yeah, I'm one of. them too. >> There's a question of okay, is the. solution making these bots way more. humanlike? Should we insert things like. have have a bot say um or you know like.

waffle like a human does? >> And from what I saw, the consensus is. no, don't do that. bots should be. recognizable and volunteer themselves as. bots. Humans are humans. Keep the two. separate. Um, and I I I don't know which. direction it's going. It does kind of. seem like the whole thing's in a a. quagmire currently. But I also did see. that bots are poised to start taking. over the reins from human conversation. analysts and doing it themselves and. then training bots how to be better at.

their job. So, one bot training another. bot, >> right? >> Uh, that's from what I can tell the the. future of conversation analysis. >> Yeah. I mean, with the movie uh her that. now is like kind of freakily ahead of. its time with Scarlett Johansson, >> uh, I think in that situation, they. definitely wanted to make her way more. human and do things like stumble words. and make mistakes. But if it's something. like a a customer service bot,

>> right? >> You don't want that. >> I don't want it at all, but I definitely. don't want one that's like, "I just. goofed. Aren't I cute?". >> Exactly. Lol. Um, so let's get down to it, though, Chuck. Here's the real reason we started. talking about this. Do men interrupt. women as much as people think? Well, I mean, this has been something. that they've studied a lot since the 70s. about, you know, the roles that that. plays and uh it's been mixed results. There have been studies that found that.

men interrupt women um much more. There's some uh that found there's not. much of a difference. Uh there was a. meta analysis from 1998 that found that. gender divide becomes more clear-cut. when looking at intrusive, specifically. intrusive interruptions as to. cooperative interruptions. And that's. kind of what I took away is that it. seems like when men are interrupting it. is definitely more intrusive. Um maybe. mansplainy, I don't know. >> And women interrupt maybe just as often,

but it's it's much more of the. cooperative type, >> right? And they chalk this up to. different kinds of upbringings where um. girls who become women are raised to. essentially um socialize through. communication, through conversation. So. they become masters at it, but they also. develop expectations that men don't. necessarily fulfill like like. cooperative interruptions like, "Oh, that's right. You don't say." Uh if a. man doesn't do that, the woman might.

feel like she's not being listened to. And conversely, uh, boys are raised in a. hierarchical manner where they might. eventually come to see listening as a. form of submission where instead they're. trying to dominate. They want to be the. alpha male. They want their um, puffy. vest to be the coolest at their kids. football game. And so, not only are they. not going to um, cooperatively. interrupt, they're not even going to. listen. and they may interrupt um.

competitively too. So there's a lot of. uh at least anecdotal data to back that. up for sure. >> Yeah. And I think they also found that. uh men tend interrupt more in groups uh. than a one-on-one and that definitely. seems to fall in line with like you know. trying to establish the the power. position uh and like a if you're working. together in a group. Um they did also. find another interesting correlation. where uh in studies where the first. author of the study was a woman uh they.

found bigger differences and that just. could be that that the uh male and. female researchers are coding the. interruptions in a different way. >> Right. >> Pretty interesting. >> I thought so too. >> What about gener generationally? >> Uh well there so apparently Gen Z is. just throwing a huge wrench in the. works. Remember we talked about how uh. at the hospital, the emergency hospital, >> when somebody called and they said, "My. name is. May I help you?" Right? The. other person felt obligated to give. their name. That's not true. Like when.

we were growing up, you would not feel. like you had to say, "Oh, well, I'm Josh. Clark and here's what I need from you.". You just say, "Oh, hey, I'm I need this. or whatever." Um, that's an example of a. generational change that took place. Now, it's even more pronounced. apparently with Gen Z. There's something. called the Gen Z stare where um they're. essentially pulling a josh where you can. tell them a story and they just stare. back at you blankly at the end when it's. their turn. And apparently it's fairly. >> wide disconcerting.

>> Yeah, I've heard about it and then I I. was like, "What is that?" Then I read up. about it and uh it is very. disconcerting. Uh as is the the phone. call thing, which I haven't experienced. because people don't call each other. much anymore. >> Yeah. But apparently Gen Z when they. answer a phone they don't go hello they. expect the other person to talk first. So apparently there's a Gen Z thing. where they just answer the phone like. this. >> Yeah. And then the other person goes. hello. >> do you need help? That's what I would.

say. >> Yeah. And I I mean I guess I've w I've. definitely witnessed the Ginz stare with. our friends kids here and there to where. you're just like boy I just like I must. be the least interesting human on earth. because they're just blankly looking at. me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or you can look at it the. other way and be like good talking to. you. I'll see you later. >> Yeah. But I've also found, especially. when you're around um teenagers, like. your friends that have teenage kids, like just don't even, you know, maybe.

say something nice and hello, but don't. try to strike up a conversation. They. they don't want to talk to you. Just. don't. >> I think just move along. >> That's been true since Tuk Tuk was a. teenager. You know what I mean? >> You know what I usually do? I'll go like. I go like, "Oh, hey, how's it going? How's school going this year?" "Oh, good. Good." Right? >> Glad to hear it. and I'll just walk. away. See, like some like a nice thing. to say and then just end it. >> You don't follow up with like, "Are you. really anxious when you wake up in the. morning before school?". >> No, no, no, no. That no one wants to.

hear from an adult if you're of a. certain age. >> Okay. I'm going to have to rethink my. approach then. >> Do you remember when you were a kid? Like I don't remember even having. conversations with adults. >> Oh, yeah. No, absolutely not. You You. know I'm totally kidding this in. everything I'm saying, right? >> Oh, yeah. Of course. >> Yeah. No, I I remember that. It was very. intimidating to talk to an adult, let. alone having very little in common. >> Yeah. And they didn't want to talk to. us. >> No. No. For sure. >> Gen X was famously ignored by most.

adults. >> Yeah. Very famous. Just ask Douglas. Copelan. >> Who's that? >> He's the guy who wrote Gen X. >> Oh, okay. Is Was that a book? Famous. book. >> Yes. I believe he's the one who coined. the term. >> Oh, all right. Good for him. >> You should read it. It's good. It's a. quick read. Um, it's not like an essay. or anything like that. It's a story. about three Gen Xers and just going. through life over I think just the. course of a few days. >> I I've been a reading fool lately. I'll. put it on the list. >> Nice. I just started Infinite Jest and.

I'll bet I regret ever announcing it. publicly because. >> Is that David Foster Wallace? >> Yes. And I love that guy, but this is a. slog already. Yeah, I'm finishing I just finished the. Bono book that I had put down like a. year ago and I uh am almost done with. the Don Felder of the Eagles. >> Good lord. >> You might be asking why would you read. that? It's specifically because uh I. used to love the Eagles and he he um. apparently the book was just really um.

>> Oh, okay. Yeah, I can see. >> So, I was like, I want to read this cuz. he's like he hates those guys, so let me. read this. Did Matthew Modí recommend. you read it in his diary about um Full. Metal Jacket? >> No, that's my uh bathroom book. So, I've. just been slow rolling that one. >> Gotcha. I don't think you should use. words like slow rolling when you talk. about being in the bathroom. >> Good point. >> Uh well, I think uh we just brought. about listener mail whether we like it. or not, don't you?

>> That's right. Uh this is not a really. correction. Just sort of a maybe a. gentle reminder about our history of. Orthodont. Um I I feel like we might. have focused a little too much on. appearance. Uh this is from Aaron. Hey. guys, appreciate the depth of curiosity. you bring to each topic and I wanted to. offer an update regarding orthodontia. It's not just about appearance anymore. The field has evolved significantly and. current research shows that strong. connection between jaw and bite. alignment and conditions like sleep. apnnea, ADHD, and TMJ dysfunction. >> Uh which is of course totally true. Uh.

while some of these links were suspected. years ago, orthodontic treatment today. is increasingly focused on preventing or. mitigating these issues in the ute. before they become chronic. Uh on a. personal note, my journey with TMJ. dysfunction led me down the path of. exploring treatment options and after. years of discomfort, I found relief uh. through Invisalign. It not only helped. with my smile, realigned my bite and. significantly reduce my TMJ symptoms and. open my eyes to the broader health. benefits of orthodontic care. Uh, and. that is warm regards from Aaron. Very. nice email.

>> Aaron Invisa, >> right? Yeah, exactly. >> Uh, thanks a lot, Aaron. I'm really glad. Aaron with an E or a double A or one A. >> That's E R I N. >> Thanks a lot, Aaron. Um, I'm glad that. you were able to take care of your TMJ. I can't imagine that that's a fun. chronic condition, you know. Uh, if you. got rid of a condition that you're happy. about, we want to hear about that. Or. for whatever reason you want to write. in, you can send us an email. Send it. off to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. [Music].

>> Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].