You Are Not Alone With Postpartum Depression | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. [music]. >> Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too, and this is Stuff You Should Know. The um. kind of bummer edition, but we're hoping. to shine a light on something to [music]. help people out. >> That's right. >> I wonder if you know how we do these uh. uh. playlist once a quarter [music] now.

Which by the way, I hope people are. enjoying those. I'm sort of collecting. things in in groups and releasing them. once a quarter in groups of 10 or 12. >> Right. >> Uh I thought it was kind of a fun idea. and we've been enjoying it, but maybe. one day. something we can bucket uh is just. really sad joke-free episodes that we. feel like. they're almost like a public service. announcement. >> For sure. >> We just call them bummer episodes you. need to hear. >> Right. I think that's a great title. Let's do that. I'm I mean, we have enough, for sure. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this would definitely be one of.

them because we're talking about. postpartum depression and sort of the. the general bucket of um. post uh and even pre-natal uh and during. natal. um. troubles that women go through uh. because there are, you know, several. subcategories that they kind of place. under postpartum depression. But it is a. real. serious thing that affects uh you know, I saw 10 to 15% um. I think.

uh Dave helped us with this and he said. one in eight, which is about 12%. >> Yeah. >> Uh of women experience this and it's one. of those things that is not talked about. enough to where it seems like. the numbers could be higher cuz people. are still ashamed to admit this kind of. thing happens. >> Yeah, there is a definite stigma on this. um. to varying degrees depending on your. culture or ethnic group. >> Yeah. >> Um but basically across the board, you're going to find a stigma against a.

new mother who can't get it together for. her baby. That's kind of like what. people um sometimes look at it as. And. if you are basically being looked at. like that and you're already down on. yourself because you're not performing. perfectly to your own standards or. whatever, um that heaped on top of it, you're you're probably not going to be. like, "Everybody, I need help." You're. going to just try to dig in and just. keep trying to go. And that is the exact. opposite of what you're supposed to do.

with um any of what what are called. maternal mental health issues. There's a. whole umbrella term. It's not just. postpartum depression or perinatal. depression. There's a bunch of other. ones we'll we'll talk about a little. bit, too. Um but all of them add up to. you got to ask for help. You also have. to be on the lookout for needing to. offer help to the new mother, too, if if. you're the father or a family member or. friend or something. >> Yeah, it's it's a brutal situation where.

I mean, giving birth is a. um. you know, it can be a very wonderful, joyous thing, but no matter how you. slice it, it's it's a very uh. big sort of. traumatic doesn't always necessarily. mean something awful, but uh just a such. a big life event that then you're then. expected like, "And now it's it's. supposed to be the best thing ever.". >> Mhm. >> And you're you're going to be the. happiest you've ever been immediately. despite these huge hormonal swings.

>> Right. >> And and you're going to be a perfect mom. You're going to be such a great mom. You're going to be a perfect mom. It's. just It's just so much pressure. And uh. so yeah, this is a bit of a PSA for. sure. >> For sure. And you hit you hit something. on the nose. Um the. being perfect immediately. >> Mhm. >> being perfect is a too high an. expectation anyway. Nobody's perfect, but the idea that you're just supposed. to immediately click with your kid and. just now you're a perfect mom or a great. mom, like that is not how it plays out. very often. I I would guess most of the.

time it doesn't play out. >> Exactly. So, like I said, um postpartum. depression or perinatal, I'm just going. to call it postpartum. I basically don't. know anybody who's ever called it. perinatal depression. >> Yeah. >> Uh so, we're just going to call it. postpartum depression with the caveat. that it doesn't just happen after birth. It can happen while uh during the. pregnancy as well, right? >> Yeah, and up to a year following birth. as well. >> For sure. So, again, this falls under. the umbrella uh term of uh maternal.

mental health. Um there's also some. others, postpartum anxiety, postpartum. obsessive-compulsive disorder. We'll. talk about those a little bit later. Um. but. the when you put all of these things. together, I. you get a really bleak picture of. mothers in the United States, whereas. the rest of the world is doing better. and better with maternal mental health. The US keeps getting worse and worse, and I mean like a lot worse.

>> Yeah, uh there was a CDC study that. found that rates of postpartum. depression were seven times higher. in 2015 than they were in 2000. >> Mhm. >> And between 2016 and 2023, uh new moms. reported nearly 65% increase. of fair to poor mental health. Uh it is. Oh, man. Uh it is the leading cause of. death among new mothers uh now in the. United States uh with suicide and drug. overdose accounting for 22% of all.

postpartum uh maternal deaths in the. United States. So, >> you know, maternal death rates you. usually look at it as like, you know, something tragic happened uh in the. birth like physically or biologically. >> Right. >> Uh and in the United States, the leading. cause of death is is suicide and drug. overdoses. >> Yeah. I mean, and and this is the. highest in the developed world by far. And that that increases um the highest. in the developed world, right? So, >> Yeah. >> it's it's a crisis in in the United. States. It's a crisis worldwide, but in.

the United States, it's like a. five-alarm fire, apparently. >> Yeah. >> Um I'd be really interested to know what. the problem is. >> Yeah. >> What what's behind those figures or. underneath those figures? >> Same. >> You think it's a the um. the the United States transition toward. the becoming the society from a. Handmaid's Tale? >> Yeah. That might have something to do. with it. >> So, um one of the other things about the. postpartum depression, too, that's.

really problematic is um and you kind of. touched on this early on, I think. something like half of um cases just go. undiagnosed. In part because even doctors sometimes. are like, "Just you'll be fine. Just get. over Just get back in there, you know? Give it the old college try." Um and. families, too, and I think that that. self-inflicted stigma, too, that new. mothers have. >> Yeah, and you know, it's it's one of the. reasons is because and you know, they. have screening tools now. There's one.

called the Edinburgh. postnatal depression scale to determine. like when that line is crossed because. the. the baby blues or the uh postpartum. blues are something that happens uh a. lot. I like um maybe even most. pregnancies, you end up for, you know, up to like a week or two. having these hormonal swings where. there's like uh overlapping symptoms. with what ends up being PPD. So, that's. why a lot of reason it becomes. undiagnosed is cuz people think like, "Well, this is just the baby blues. Um.

I'm suffering from some sadness and. crying and because and feeling. overwhelmed, certainly, because. uh this is. maybe my first time." Although, I should. point out that postpartum is not limited. to first birth at all. >> Right. >> Uh can happen with any um. like their third birth, their third kid, fourth kid, whatever. Um but the the overlap is so great that. a lot of times I think people are like, "Well, it'll pass. It'll pass. It's just. the baby blues." But if it goes on for. more than a week or two, you're probably. in PPD territory.

>> Yeah, it's not that the postpartum. depression um is a. uh like a different thing than the baby. blues. It's the severity of the. symptoms, the same symptoms, and the. duration of those same symptoms that. really differentiate it and make it. something that like you you need help. for. Like you need to to get. professional help. Um it's not just. going to go away on its own. Or if it. does, it's going to you're going to. grind through years of it. >> Yeah. >> Totally unnecessarily. I cuz we didn't. say this yet. It's very highly.

treatable. >> Yeah, for sure. That's the good news, and we'll get to that. But um you know, some of those symptoms we should list. are. loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, uh feeling worthlessness or maybe even. guilt or shame, um anxiety, panic, um. irritability, anger, big-time mood. swings, difficulty with bonding with. your baby. >> Mhm. >> And again, these are uh these can be the. baby blues, or if they're super severe. and go on long enough like you said, it.

develops into PPD. And it's uh the kind of thing that can. also start several weeks to a month. later. So, you got to keep an eye out. Like if those first couple of weeks are. like. um you're like, "Oh man, I managed to. dodge this." Uh it also might start. later, and that's okay. You just need to. be uh aware. >> Right. Um I. I said that there's other um. disorders under the umbrella of maternal. mental health issues, and another one is. postpartum psychosis.

And it's essentially what it sounds. like. The um mental health disorder can. become so pronounced after birth that. you may suffer from delusions, you may. become paranoid, you may. be disoriented, you may feel. disassociated from. the people around you or the world. itself or reality. And that is considered So postpartum. depression is something you need to seek. help for. Postpartum psychosis is. considered a you immediately take a trip.

to the ER when. >> Yes. >> when you or the people around you figure. out that you are suffering from. postpartum psychosis. It's like get in. the car, maybe you can throw on a robe. and just go to the ER. >> Yeah, and it's it's very rare, we should. say. It's one out of every 1,000 births, but they say that because very sadly. about 4.5%. of the cases of that psychosis result in. harm to the baby. >> Mhm. >> And 5%. 5% result in suicide. And. if you know, if you've ever seen some.

terrible. news report about like a mom that's you. know, God told me to drown my baby. That's what we're talking about here. because delusions of grandeur a lot of. times religious in nature. Obsessive. thoughts about harming you or harming. your baby. Extreme paranoia, like that. kind of thing. That's that's what falls. under the postpartum psychosis banner. >> Yeah, and from researching postpartum. psychosis, they found that there are. some. additional risk factors. Seems like the.

number one risk factor for developing it. is if you have a history whether. personal or familial of bipolar. disorder. >> Mhm. >> And that if you start having sleep loss. that triggers bouts of mania. that is a really big red flag that you. are at a great risk of going on to. develop postpartum psychosis. Meaning so. sleep loss which you already are getting. from. just having a new baby, but if that.

triggers mania, that's a that's a big. red flag. And that's probably what kicks. the whole thing off is that loss of. sleep. It's like crazy important, and. it's nuts that evolution didn't take. that into account. Like, oh yeah, we. need to make sure everybody sleeps after. this, not stays awake for the next 2. years. Um because it'll drive people. crazy. Like that that can trigger that. all of these um maternal mental health. issues. >> Yeah, I mean that that can be rough on a. family. I We got very, very lucky with.

Ruby in that she was a pretty good. sleeper from early on, but uh I've heard. some nightmare stories, uh and it's. it's really tough. Sleep is so, so. important. Um I think another thing we. didn't point out was for the postpartum. psychosis, uh it's almost always a first-time. pregnancy, too, um which is. differentiates it from postpartum uh. general postpartum depression. Um but, you know, some similar risk. factors uh for regular PPD,

um if you have a history of depression. or anxiety, you're more likely. Uh if. you had a a childhood trauma that you. experienced, uh if you underwent infertility. treatment, you may be more likely, too. Uh if it's an unplanned pregnancy, or if. you're a low-income mother, uh. especially if you're like literally. living in poverty, they experience PPD. at twice the rate of higher-income moms. Um and there are also a couple of. biological factors. If you suffer from. anemia or hypothyroidism, and then it can be genetic, I think. Uh.

depending on what study you've seen, I've seen anywhere from 14 to 30%. Um. have uh like potentially a genetic. factor, like inheritable. >> Oh, really? I hadn't seen that at all. Um you let's talk about um. uh postpartum or perinatal OCD. and perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. real quick, too, okay? >> Yeah. >> So, POCD, this is this to me sounds like. the hardest to deal with because I think. you are probably the least likely to.

step forward and say, "I need some help, everybody." But, it's a obsessive. compulsive disorder that develops. way more quickly than typical obsessive. compulsive disorder. Very usually very. shortly after birth uh. or after the baby's born. Um and it's, you know, like uh ritual behaviors, like checking. on the baby incessantly, worrying that. the baby's going to get contaminated. with germs, um and uh lots of intrusive.

thoughts that can be super disturbing. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's a. natural tendency if you've especially. for a first-time parent to have this new. seemingly very fragile tender thing that. you're in charge of keeping alive. Uh it it's a pretty natural instinct, I. think, to. maybe think like they're so. small and so uh fragile. Uh. So, my dumb advice just as a parent is. like they're they're more robust than.

you think. And uh they're they're made. to survive and they're made to live uh. generally speaking. So, you have that on. your side, um but I can see how it's. pretty easy for maybe someone to go down. this road of worrying about germs or. checking on the baby every like 10. minutes in the middle of the night and. to become sort of uh obsessive. Uh this. the POCD can um cross the line into some. um. even unwanted sexual obsessions. Uh like uh a mother apparently can have.

sexualized images uh flashing through. their mind while they're changing a. diaper. >> Mhm. >> Uh which is just sort of a creates a. cycle of you thinking like, "What's. wrong with me? What's going on? I'm. having this weird thing flash through my. head.". >> Right. >> And in reality, that's all it is is just. like a sleep or your hormones or. something just really unusual that uh. uh flashed through your head and as an. intrusive thought, it does not mean that. that's who you are or what or or you're.

leading to some awful outcome. >> Right. And I think that's. kind of worth saying again, Chuck, because this is the kind of thing that. you would not Who you going to tell that. to? Oh, I'm having sexualized thoughts. about our baby. >> Yeah, for sure. >> not going to tell that to anybody. It's. going to be so tough to admit that. So, you have to know that it's not you. >> Yeah. >> your hormones. It is not you. You do You. have not suddenly developed a sexual. attraction to infants or children. You. like it's not you. So, if you're having.

thoughts like this, you're not alone. It's actually more common than you would. think. And like you can get treatment. for this and you should get treatment. for it because you're probably really. being hard on yourself right now. >> Yeah. And you know, and if you give in. to that thought, then that's when you're. maybe avoiding. bathing your baby or avoiding caring and. holding for your baby. So, uh it's a tough thing to come forward. and talk to people. So, that's why it's. really great to have a a great support. system of.

of uh other moms, friends, and families, to people to lean on because I guarantee. you if you. if you say the weirdest thought you've. had out loud in a group of moms, there. will be a couple of them that have that. are like, I had the same thoughts. It's. okay. >> Right. Yeah. Yeah, hopefully you have a. group like that or can find one, you. know. >> Yeah. >> Uh then there's um postnatal mood and. anxiety disorder, which essentially is a. um really terrible positive feedback. loop to where you feel like you're not.

bonding with your baby well enough or. fast enough. And so, you start to become anxious, which the baby picks up on and the baby. becomes distressed or less likely to um. connect with you or pay attention to. you, which makes it harder for you to. read the baby, which makes it less. likely for you to bond uh in any kind of. quick fashion and it just keeps going in. this cycle. >> Yeah, for sure. And you know what? I. want to recommend a podcast because. if you maybe you're a little more.

isolated and you don't feel like you. have this or or if you just don't have. this sort of uh. support system around you, our old buddy Jesse Thorn, who runs the. Maximum Fun Network and co-hosts with. Judge John Hodgman with our pal um. his wonderful wife Teresa is she's just. the best and I don't think they do it. anymore, but Teresa and Biz Ellis had a. show called One Bad Mother. >> Oh, yeah, I remember that. >> for a long time and I'm pretty sure they. stopped doing it, but they did it for.

many many years and One Bad Mother was. just a a great outlet and support system. for just this kind of stuff. For you. know, the message was always like you're. doing just fine. You're doing okay. You. think you're the worst and you're really. the best and like you know, if you're. having a hard time and you're you feel. like you're alone in this, like turn on. that podcast. Like do something like. that to to know that you're not alone. out there. >> Right. And pour yourself a mega pint of wine. and treat yourself to the Bad Moms.

trilogy in one sitting. >> That's right. >> Um so you want to take a break? >> Yeah, let's take a break and we'll get. into some statistics about. other communities and how they deal with. this. >> [music]. [music]. [music].

[singing]. >> All right, everyone, we're back. We. promised talk about statistics and um in. this case there are some pretty stark. racial disparities when it comes to PPD. uh, as far as um, the incidence of occurrence and very. sadly treatment. Uh, up to 40% of black. and Latina moms suffer from PPD, which. is about twice the rate of non-Hispanic. white moms. And single black mothers are. six times more likely.

than the general population to. experience it. Um, really sadly, uh, Latina women and black women are 57% and. 41% respectively less likely to start. treatment for PPD than white women. >> Right. And there's a lot of reasons for. why they're less likely to start. treatment. Um, in part there's a stigma, uh, just like with any culture. Uh, I think in Latino culture, uh, that. stigma can be even stronger than, um,

white or black culture. Um, but for, say, black women in particular, it can. often go undiagnosed because it doesn't. present as the classic symptoms that the. Embra scale, um, is is designed to. detect. Rather than depressive symptoms, uh, black mom might have, um, irritability, self-criticism, deep. fatigue, insomnia. These are not all. necessarily shared by all new mothers. Um, and so it just the doctor just might. miss it. They might be like, "Hey,

you're just aggro. Stop being aggro.". >> Right. >> You know? >> Yeah, I think they came up with a. different, um, a different scale, uh, just for black. mothers, right? >> Yeah, the Jackson Hogg Phillips. contextualized stress measure. Which, next time you have a party, >> Right. >> give that out as a party favor for. guests. >> Yeah, for sure. But that's great that. they were like, "Hey, we have a. we have a hole, uh, in our treatment. plan here as far as even diagnosing this. in black women." So they they came up.

with their own scale, which is awesome. Uh, the. um, basically everybody, the American. College of Obstetricians and. gynecologists, the AMA, uh the the. American Academy of Pediatrics, everyone. says recommends that everybody should be. screened for prenatal or I'm sorry, perinatal depression. >> Mhm. >> But very sadly, less than 20% of all. women are screened for these mental. health disorders and um those numbers. are a lot lower for women of color. >> Right. So those are reasons why they. might not um actually go seek out.

treatment for um PPD. Um there is also. reasons why they're more likely to. suffer from PPD in the first place and. those seem to center on uh social. determinants of health. >> Yeah. >> Which is like your your environment, um. your income level, uh the amount of free. time you might even have to go see the. doctor. All of these things tend to be. less than what a white mother would. experience and all of them help increase.

the likelihood of experiencing. postpartum depression. >> Yeah, for sure. >> So regardless Chuck of whatever whatever. your um ethnic or racial group, uh there. are. essentially the same causes. I mean PPD, even though it might manifest itself. differently, even though access to help. for PPD is different, those are all. human-made. obstacles. >> Yeah. >> There the biological basis for it is the. same in every case and essentially it's. a combination of hormones and the.

stark raving horror. that is becoming a new parent. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like we were saying, you're you're thrown into this brand new. thing. where your first charge is like, all. right, keep this baby alive. >> Oh man, I cannot imagine. >> Oh I mean, I remember and this is like. uh. I imagine it's the same with adoption as. with it is just, you know, a. uh regular birth, but you know, all of a. sudden someone just hands you a baby.

And the nurses see the look on your. face. And hopefully the nurses are all as. great as ours were. They're just like, "You're doing fine." They told us what I. said was like, "Hey, these these babies. are meant to stay alive. You're going to be just fine. Just feed. them this way and. >> [laughter]. >> and you're on the right track by just. getting food into their body.". Uh and so, you know, like I said, you. know, evolution has happened in such a. way where uh they they want these babies.

to live, so you're you've already got a. bit of a head start. Um but. being bombarded by uh hormones and a. change in hormones is definitely. something that's hard to deal with. because your your body's bombarded with. hormones because you're pregnant to help. your you know, to help you be. successfully pregnant and to stay. pregnant. And then immediately after. within like 72 hours most of the these. hormones go back to their previous. state. And that's just a big uh break to. throw on.

>> Yeah, it's pretty mean of evolution. really to just be like, "Here's all the. stuff that you need to have a baby. Now. you don't have a baby anymore. Who cares. about you?" Yeah, and your baby's like, "Thanks for the ride, lady.". >> Right, they could have been like, "Well, let's just tap these down like we are. slowly over the course of 6 months.". >> Yeah, what the hey, you know? >> I know. >> I'm a childless man. even. [laughter]. And I am offended by that. I'm mad at. natural selection for that. It's just. totally unfair. It's it's just unfair.

>> Well, what are some of these hormones? Let's talk about them. >> Well, you got good old progesterone. Everybody knows that one. That one won. the the Super Bowl last year. >> That's right. >> Um it helps you create your placenta. that the baby's going to. I guess attach to. I remember if I remember my health class. from eighth grade correctly. >> Okay. >> Uh it also stimulates blood vessel. growth um which helps get nutrients and. oxygen to the womb. Progesterone, it.

like any hormone, it's actually quite. clever. We have a finite number of. hormones, not that many actually. I'm. not sure how many, but they do so many. different things and they do so many. different things in combinations. It's. just elegant and beautiful the human. body can be except when the hormone. levels drop too quickly. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, there's also of. course estrogen that's going to help the. uterus grow, uh, contribute to fetal development as. far as organs and things go. It's going. to stimulate that milk duct development. Um, relaxin is another one. That's the.

the most chill of all. Uh, that's going. to inhibit uterine contractions, uh, until you need them uh, to avoid. premature birth and then it's going to. do double duty and relax and soften the. pelvic joints, uh, when you're preparing for birth. And then finally we have oxytocin. Uh, they really shoot through the roof. at the beginning of labor to stimulate. uterine contractions. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and then again, like we said, within. about 72 hours of birth uh, at least.

estrogen and progesterone uh, that had. increased tenfold just goes back to. normal. And these huge hormonal swings. are just tough to deal with, you know, it's tough to know which way is up. >> Okay. That's just the hormonal the the. biological aspect of it. There's also. the environmental aspect of it. The, uh, the nurture version. That was nature, this is the nurture part. And, um, having a new baby comes along with, um, all of a sudden you have to stay at home.

with your new baby and can't do. anything. Um, you, uh, aren't sleeping. I think. that that is like kind of overlooked by. people who've never had kids. Uh, or underestimated, I think maybe. Or. who haven't had kids that, um, that. don't sleep very well. Um, and then, uh, you also have to nurse. You have been. physically gone through the wringer, taken through the wringer. Like there's. all sorts of different things that come. that are specific exclusively to just.

having had a baby that combined with the. hormones, they just come together and. and at the very least give almost all. new mothers the baby blues and then some. moms postpartum depression, postpartum. mood and anxiety disorder, postpartum. psychosis, postpartum OCD. >> Yeah, uh and you know, as far as the. sleep thing goes, even if you have like. a great sleeper like we did, you're. still going to have disrupted sleep for. a while because you have to get up and. feed that baby in the middle of the. night and some people have a really hard. time.

going back to bed. So, uh this is when. uh partners need to really really really. really really step up um if you if you. have a partner when you're having a. baby. Uh I imagine I can't imagine how. tough this is on your own, but um yeah, step up, take feet middle of the night. feedings. Um. let that mom get as much sleep as. possible. Uh and then they also say. sleep when the baby sleeps, so uh. embrace those naps all day long. If like. your baby has a great nap in the. afternoon, so should you.

>> Right. Don't like your mother-in-law? Well, if she's willing to come over and. watch the baby overnight, fake it. >> Yeah. Oh man. And we had a lot of help, so. like cuz you know, my mom and Emily's. mom uh were both living here at the time. and. so I just really feel for people that. don't have that kind of help and feel. like they're trapped at home. So, my. other advice as a cis dad is to get out. in the world. Um you might think that. your baby is just a uh.

um a walking sickness bomb waiting to. happen if they go and and breathe the. world's air, >> Yeah. >> but there's nothing better that you can. do for yourself and your baby than to. get out in the world as much as possible. as soon as possible. >> Yeah. >> They'll be just fine. >> Great advice, Chuck. You are just. rolling with it today. >> Well, I hope I've learned something. >> Um I think you've learned a lot. >> Yeah. >> Um so yes, you have your hormone levels. plummeting. That seems like a pretty. good answer to where um postpartum. depression comes from, right?

>> Yeah. >> But it turns out that they've zoomed in. and gotten even more granular, if you're. like a C-suite type, um and have figured. out that there's this one hormone in in. particular that really seems to be. largely responsible. It's not the only. one responsible for it, but it's it's a. pretty it got caught red-handed with. like a. a bag with a dollar sign on it, wearing. a black mask, kind of skulking away. >> That's right. >> So what is it, Chuck? >> Uh it is allopregnanolone.

It's funny, Dave wrote this and he was. like, "Good luck pronouncing that." And. Dave Dave, buddy, that one's pretty easy. compared to a lot of the stuff that we. see. >> For sure. >> Uh but that is a steroid. >> [laughter]. >> That's a steroid naturally produced in. the brain, and it plays a couple of key. roles during pregnancy in that it. inhibits the release of oxytocin, uh. which we already talked to that to avoid. premature labor, which you don't want. >> Mhm. >> It also protects the developing fetal. brain from all those stress hormones. that mom has. >> Right. Okay, so this is pretty great.

stuff. Unfortunately, just like all the other. hormones, it says, "So long. I've done my thing." Like within, you. know, a couple of days of having given. birth. So all of a sudden, not only is. this a hormonal change, this natural. antidepressant has suddenly just. vanished on you. And this can really. seem to trigger uh postpartum depression. in in a lot of women. >> Yeah, for sure. So, um.

it's going to lower their anxiety for a. while while they're pregnant and boost a. mother's mood. And then after that baby. is born, when it crashes out, uh it's. it's probably feels akin to like going. off an SSRI or something. >> But quickly. Like I mean whenever you go. off a medication like that, you're. supposed to step it down slowly. Taper. it off. This is like again, nature just. being a total B. Um. ripping that stuff away from you and all.

of a sudden you're just you you just. going cold turkey off of this. antidepressant that you got used to over. 9 months. >> Yeah, for sure. >> So Chuck, one thing that we've really. been focusing on is the mom and the mom. definitely suffers from postpartum. depression, but so can the baby as well. >> Yeah, for sure. Um. pregnant women with. PPD are far more likely to to deliver a. pre-term baby or a baby with low birth. weight. So there can be a literal like.

um like a physical outcome of postpartum. depression for the baby. And we talked earlier about black and. Latina women experiencing PPD at higher. rates. So that also is going to. correlate over to birth outcomes because. black women are 50% more likely to give. pre-term. to give birth pre-term than white women. and more than twice as likely to have a. baby with a low birth weight. >> Right. This of course makes it even more. pressure laden for you to get it just.

right, right? So that also can affect. your ability to bond with your baby. And. again, as we saw with postpartum mood. and anxiety disorder, that can create a. feedback cycle where you get more and. more anxious about it, more and more. depressed about it and that that affects. your bonding even further. which you get more and more depressed. and anxious about and that affects your. baby as well. >> Yeah, for sure. Should we take a break? >> Yeah, there is one other thing I think. before we break to to point out and that. is that if you have postpartum.

depression, it doesn't mean that you. don't want to bond with your baby. Like. you are incapable of of bonding with. your baby in the healthiest possible. way. It's not you, it's your biology and. your environment. >> Yeah. Yeah, I thought you were about to. say, it's not you, it's them. It's the. baby. >> It's the baby's fault, yeah. >> He's just not that into you. >> [laughter]. >> Uh all right, I'm glad we could make a. sort of a light joke. I hope it came. across that way and we will be back. right after this. uh with treatment options because.

there's great news on the horizon. >> [music]. [music]. [music]. [singing]. >> Okay, Chuck. So, you said there's great. news on the horizon and we're about to. lay it on them, all the moms who are. bawling and yelling and doing all the.

things. while they're listening to this episode. Treatment is quite um viable. >> That's right. Uh standard treatment is. uh what you might think. It's it's. therapy, um perhaps antidepressant. medication. Uh certainly CBT, cognitive. behavioral therapy we've talked about a. lot. >> Yeah. >> Uh that's has been proven to be pretty. effective for PPD. uh and postpartum anxiety. >> And everything. >> Yeah, and everything in general. But um.

in the in the case of CBT, you know, you're identifying these um triggers. that seem very automatic, these thought. patterns. uh that you think you can't help and, you know, coach you through that and how. to develop a healthier way of responding. to those things when they do happen. >> Right. God bless Dr. Aaron T. Beck, the creator. of CBT. >> Yeah, for sure. >> There's also medication. Um we talked. about allopregnanolone being discovered. as like a main culprit for um postpartum. depression. That led to some drugs.

being, um, expressly targeted a to. basically help that transition so you. don't just go cold turkey, you kind of. taper off of that stuff. >> Yeah. >> And then, um, there's also long been, um, SSRIs prescribed for it, like a a. standard antidepressant. And that, of. course, gives moms pause, like any kind. of medication can give a lot of moms. pause because they're like, "I'm. nursing, so what's that going to do to. the baby?". >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, they've studied. this. Uh, the current.

sort of wisdom on this is that they have. been detected in very, very low levels, uh, sometimes even undetectable levels. in breast milk. >> Mhm. >> Uh, there are rare reports of adverse. effects on infants, uh, or in infants. So, uh, that's that's where the science. currently stands. >> Yes, I also saw that paroxetine and. sertraline, which is, um, Seroxat and. Zoloft, >> Okay. >> they seem to be the the preferred, um, antidepressants for nursing mothers.

because they have a shorter half-life. than other SSRIs, and they, um, pass to. breast milk in smaller amounts than. other SSRIs. So, if SSRIs in general are. okay, these two are super okay, according to the medical establishment, not me, cuz I'm not a doctor. >> That's right. Uh, and by the way, we. did, I think, two pretty good episodes. on breastfeeding. Uh, back in the day, that was a. two-parter, right? >> We did one on bottle-feeding and one on. breastfeeding.

>> Right. Uh, yeah, so feeding your baby, and, uh, you know, I recommend you you. do those, and we got. you know, it's always when it's two two. dudes podcasting about this stuff about, uh, lady stuff, we we we're always a little nervous, and. we always get really good feedback, uh, from women that say, like, you guys did. a really good job, and it's good that. you guys are out there sort of not. feeling like it has to come, uh, from a. woman's perspective, so, uh, I hope I hope we're doing this all. justice, you know. >> God, I hope so, too.

>> I think you're doing fine. >> I think you're doing great. >> But, I'm just another cis dude. >> So, uh, if you want to target. allopregnanolone, um, there's a drug called, uh, brexanolone. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There's another one called zuranolone. Yeah. And, those are the generic terms. for them. The problem is is as it stands. right now, uh, if you're paying. out of pocket with zero insurance, you're going to pay 24 grand for one. In.

the United States, I'm sure it's like 10. bucks in Canada. >> Yeah. >> Or 15 grand for the other. >> Shame, shame, shame. >> Yeah. Hopefully, if you have even. passingly decent insurance in the United. States, like you're not going to pay. anything even remotely like that, but. yes, I think you should say it again, Chuck. >> Yeah. Still, even if insurance is. covering it, shame, shame, shame, shame. Capital S H A M E. >> Good for you, buddy. And now, here's an. ad for zuranolone.

>> [clears throat]. [laughter]. >> Oh, man. You're managing to squeeze in. some jokes. I like that. >> I like you. >> [laughter]. >> So, uh, can men get postpartum depression? The. answer is yes, that can happen. Apparently, between 8 and 10% of new. dads suffer from some kind of anxiety or. depression after the birth of a job. And, it also may be connected to. hormones in some cases. >> Mhm. >> Um, it's usually later than women might. experience it, between 3 and 6 months. later. Uh, maybe up to a year later, but.

a lot of the same, you know, issues, sleep issues, loss of appetite, feeling. overwhelmed, tired, sad, anxious. Um, and also the same people at risk. Uh, if. you're a younger dad, if you have a. history of depression, if you are. struggling financially, or if you're. just having trouble in your marriage or. relationship, and you know, you don't. have to be a married to have a baby. We. all know that. >> All right. Um. >> Uh all of those same kind of risk. factors. >> Right. Uh and I there's also additional.

risk factors that dads customarily have. that new moms neces- don't necessarily. and that's the same that's like the new. mom is expected to be a great mom and. raise a great, healthy, well-adjusted. baby right out of the box. The dad is expected to really step it up. and provide for his new family. Um and that can often mean like, well, you're stuck here in this job and you're. now beholden to this employer. Um. and like you may this that might not be. the the greatest feeling in the world.

for you right then and at the very least. it's additional pressure. So, that can. also kick off postpartum depression in. dads, which was um. >> [clears throat]. >> I think best expressed in the Wham! song. "Everything She Wants". >> That's right. And uh I hope this is. clear, but to be clear, we're not. obviously talking about the old days. where like the man's got the job and the. woman doesn't work and isn't expected. to, but you know, in two-income families. uh a lot of times when a mom has a baby, uh they at the very least hopefully have.

a great um. maternity leave kind of situation. Uh if. not, sometimes they have to leave like. whatever job and just not get paid for a. while, so there may be more pressure on. the second income earner to you know, kind of make up for that loss or at. least keep the ship afloat till mom can. get back to work. >> Yeah, and one of the um I guess quirks. [clears throat]. of the the United States economy, I. guess, is that especially if you if you have a. two-income house and there um there is.

not great a maternal leave or paternal. leave. Both parents have to go to work. very soon after the birth. Um. they will have to put their kid in child. care. The United States, unlike some. other countries, does not have free. child care. It is a um a paid private um. business industry. And. some couples figure out that the cost of. daycare is more than say the mom or the.

dad would actually bring home. And so in. that sense it makes sense to just for. for the mom or the dad to stay home, whoever has the lower income that. daycare would exceed. That's. nuts that that happens to anybody and it. happens to a decent amount, at least. anecdotally. >> Yeah, for sure. Daycare is really really. expensive and it it's it's a real shame. because that can. that helps the family, that helps for. outcomes for the kid in their.

development. Um. so my recommendation is to use your. voice at the voting booth and if you. there are candidates in your local city. or state or nationwide that believe in. the idea of free child care then. speak with your vote. That's all I'm. going to say on that. >> Okay. Well, another thing too, Chuck, it's not. just environment, just like with. postpartum depression in women, postpartum depression in men also seems. to have to do with hormones. Um because.

men's hormones. or the balance of hormones change during. pregnancy as well, which is pretty neat. >> Yeah, for sure. Your testosterone is. going to probably drop during the. pregnancy. and continues to get lower after the. birth happens. And people think you know. researchers think that. that's basically to keep took took at. bay and to reduce aggressive tendencies. while. you know father infant bonding is. happening. Like chill out dad. You need.

to be gentler right now. So we're going. to lower your T. >> Right. And also stick around and help. raise the kid rather than go look for. your next conquest. >> Yeah, I man, I wonder if I should say. this on the [laughter] air. >> Oh, well, we can edit it out. >> All right, we'll see. One of the funny. things that Emily has done lately. is uh. you know you know all the uh in the. stupid manosphere world, like you know, low T, beta male. >> Mhm.

>> Uh soy, that's another one. Like you're. soy, like because you eat soy instead of. meat like a man does. >> Mhm. >> She will anytime I'm like. >> [laughter]. >> I don't know, just being wishy-washy. about something or what if she feels. like she just wants to kind of poke fun. at me, she'll she'll call me like a beta. cuck or uh. ask me if I have low T or like, "Hey, soy, come over here and help me with. this thing.". >> Oh my gosh. >> And it's very I mean, it always just. brings the house down between the two of. us cuz it's just such a dumb thing. [clears throat] anyway. Um I like that she's taken something.

from the manosphere and kind of twisted. it to use it in our own uh marriage as a. comedy. >> I would love to be sitting on the couch. someday and her do that to you because. yes, I would lose it too. >> [clears throat]. >> I wait for Ruby to be like, "What's a. beta cuck?". >> [laughter]. >> Um let's see. Oh, yeah, um postpartum. depression is also treatable in dads, so. if you think you have it, seek help cuz. it's very treatable, too. >> That's right. >> Uh you got anything else? >> I got nothing else, man. I always feel. like we're on ice skates with these. episodes, so.

>> feel like that about this one. >> I always get a little nervous in how I. speak about this stuff, so I hope we did. okay. >> You did great, man. You did great. >> great. >> Well, then I sounds like we both did. great. >> I I but I want moms to write in and say. you did great. I don't care what I think. about you and what you think about me. anymore. We know we love each other. >> All right, fair enough. Okay. Yeah, if you're a new mom or an. old mom or even never had kids, it. doesn't matter. We would love to hear. from you about this episode. >> Yeah, and not just saying we're great.

Like if we fell short, let us know and. we'll try and do better and correct it. >> Well put, man. I'm glad you said that, too, cuz yeah. It we sounded like a. couple of. >> I know, like please make us feel better. >> Right? Couple of cucks. >> Beta cucks. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Uh since Chuck just laughed about beta. cucks again. >> So funny. >> That means it's time for listener. [music] mail. >> Soy is the one that really gets me. >> Well, you know what's crazy is soy. actually does raise your estrogen levels. and can give men mini boobs.

>> Oh, well, great. Give it to me. I love it. Uh all right, this is from. Adam in Michigan. Hey guys, I'm a little. more than disappointed [music] that in. the Three Mile Island episode you failed. to mention professional wrestler Adam. Bomb. Uh he was a popular wrestler in the. 1980s in the WWF. Uh he was billed as. being from Three Mile Island. >> [laughter]. >> and was an imposing 6'6" 290. >> Wow. >> He had uh yellow con- yellow contact. lenses. And his finishing move was called the.

Adam Smasher. This is so great. Uh he was a rather. imposing figure with a very creepy theme. song and he made quite an impact. His. real name is Brian Clark. He's still. alive and looks almost like he did in. the 1980s. Uh Adam from Michigan. >> Nice. I have never heard of him, so. thank you for letting us know, Adam. >> Yeah, that's fun. >> You hadn't heard of him? >> Uh no, I mean I I didn't keep up with. wrestling much. >> No, I didn't either. But sounds like we were missing out on a. lot. >> But, you know, we're just soy-loving. beta cucks, so what do we know?

>> [laughter]. >> Uh if you want to be like Adam and let. us know Wait, is this from Adam Bomb. himself? >> No, this is A D A M. >> Oh, okay. Um well, there was an Adam. Bomb who was a DJ at um Album 88 for a. while. He had like the Soul Something. Show. >> Oh, wow. I bet I listened to it. >> It was really good. Uh well, anyway, thanks a lot, Adam from Michigan, for. letting us know about Adam Bomb. Uh we love that. And if you want to get. in touch with us, like Adam did, you You.

send us an email to send it off to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. >> Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from. iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. to your favorite shows. >> [music].