Would A Love Drug Be Ethical? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and this is stuff you should. know um I got a little mini joke for. this to start great let's dive into love. drugs oh okay um well chuck would you. ever take a love drug if they were. available.

uh no. but based on the the couple of people. that we're sort of highlighting on. who've been researching this kind of. thing it's definitely something I think. has more Merit than when you just think. about quote unquote love drug yeah I saw. I think it was a new scientist even some. very legitimate Science magazine Source. was saying like these things are going. to be around in 10 years so there's a. group of philosophers.

um especially an ethicist named Julian. savescu um from oh I think he's from. Oxford uh and then another guy named. Brian IR who I also believe is from. Oxford uh they have kind of been hitting. this hard and actually came out with the. book called love drugs. colon the chemical future of. relationships I think in Europe it's. called love is the drug which is a Roxy. Music reference if I'm not mistaken and. they're at the center of this whole talk. but one of the cool things about when a.

philosopher puts a book out there's. other philosophers that critique it and. give interesting like. alternative thoughts and explanations. and stuff like that and this is there's. this is no different from anything else. but what savescu and herp uh are. basically saying is these things are. coming and here's how they could work. and here's what to look out for and how. they can help and that's essentially the. basis of this. episode yeah for sure um this comes with.

some caveats at the beginning um chiefly. because they use the word love drug and. that's a that's a term that means a lot. of things to everybody that you might. ask um across different cultures uh even. within the same culture situationally. love can uh mean something different to. to uh to anybody so uh the first thing. to kind of know is that there's not. anyone out there saying like hey love is. just a phenomenon that's um because of. the chemicals in your brain like I think.

even the the most hard-hearted. philosopher will say uh or chemists will. say like yeah there are chemicals that. work in the brain that that you know. release all kinds of hormones and things. that make us feel certain ways and it it. factors in but like there's also this. indefinable thing that we'll never be. able to like understand and control. through a medication yeah I think what. they're what they're getting at then. from that point on they're saying say.

yes we agree love is not just. biochemical but there are a lot of. biochemicals involved in the feeling of. love and whatever love is It's. associated with these chemicals so if we. can uh manipulate these chemicals. perhaps we can jack the feelings of love. up or create love or strengthen love um. that's that's kind of like the position. they're coming from and so from that. point on just accepting that love has. some sort of biochemical basis to it or. signature to it they then moved on to.

the work of an anthropologist named. Helen fiser who uh had dedicated. essentially her career to um love. basically and she divided love into. essentially three parts uh and this. sounds really familiar to me there's no. way we haven't talked about this before. have we did it seem familiar to. you just feeling that way about you and. Jerry and my wife and my daughter the. time let's get to it uh lust oh well. never mind apparently about me and Jerry.

uh romantic attraction sometimes and. then attachment I think is the one. you're talking about for sure uh those. are the three stages a lot of people. will say that those occur in that order. uh fiser is like no it can occur in. really any order and then fall back out. of order and back into of order um which. you know I I kind of agree with that. notion um but she does say that you know. these are the things that package. together as what we would look around.

the world at and agree on as uh romantic. love like a long-term love relationship. yeah and when you look around the world. it's expressed in different ways. sometimes very privately sometimes. there's PDA like it it's just different. culturally but if you strip all that. stuff away you're going to find those. three stages essentially or those three. parts of that package not everybody. agrees with that um a a psychologist. named Lisa diamond from from the. University of Utah which by the way if.

you're ever bored and you want to learn. about epigenetics go to the University. of Utah site I think I mentioned this. before they have a worldclass. userfriendly. epigenetics website it's amazing but. anyway Lisa Diamond uh believes in more. of a split attraction model and she says. uh sex and romantic attraction they are. independent biologically they're. functionally independent they don't. depend on one another and therefore. Helen Fisher's wrong about this whole.

thing being a single. package yeah and she's got some points. and she can point to some studies uh. that seem to back this up um one of. which that she cites on the rag is that. uh 61% of women and 35% of men have. reported that they've uh experienced. infatuation without a need for sex so uh. that that certainly makes sense um but. if you look at sex and romance and love. and the way that uh the culture of a lot.

of the world looks at it at least um. that three-part chemical formula from. fiser um carries a lot of common sense. weight I think uh and we're going to. look at some of these chemicals now um. including at first testosterone and. estrogen of course which Drive the. libido uh that's sort of the first. bucket yeah that's the last part right. right uh the next one chuck would be the. Attraction part or the Romantic. attraction um and that that's a. associated with a bunch of different.

ones dopamine norepinephrine which. increases arousal and attention cortisol. which is interesting but it's totally. makes sense when you think about it. cortisol um stress symptoms include. things like racing heart sweating. Palms another one. serotonin um. serotonin uh regulates mood and. um keeps out intrusive thoughts so when. there's a disregulation of Serotonin. those things can kind of creep in um and.

you can feel intense intense feelings. and think about nothing else but the. person you're romantically attracted to. um and you put all those things together. and you've got the the chemistry the. brain chemistry essentially of romantic. attraction the thing that's beyond just. lust the thing where you want to be with. that person yeah for sure and when you. have that initial attraction and then it. settles in to just sort of normal. relationship status uh I guess that. puppy love sort of wears off um those.

are chemical reactions as well that. cortisol that shot up and the lack of. Serotonin those kind of level off and. that's why you level off um it's very. sad but it happens so what about. attachment uh attachment is oxytocin um. that is one that we've talked about a. lot on the show um also one that's very. closely related. vasopressin uh which is the one that um. males um and male mammals at least is. most important for bonding mhm uh and.

this is you know when you have sexual. intercourse or maybe some other kind of. intimate contact hugs even a good hug. can release some oxytocin so we'll uh. other things that you can do like. hugging and kissing other people uh and. that's when your empathy and your trust. and your feelings of safety are really. going to ramp up and that's that's a big. deal that's how well that's how you. become attached right and so. evolutionarily speaking um caring for. offspring. is facilitated by oxytocin in a lot of.

ways there's a tremendous amount. remember oxytocin is in like in part. responsible for um breast milk. production like there's a huge increase. of it during labor and delivery um it's. a big deal but it also has to do with. pair bonding with um mates the the. people who come together and reproduce. to create that Offspring to put it. really biologically um so the there's a.

question it's not just granted science. that humans are pair bonding mammals. like say prairie BS which we'll talk. about in a minute um but as in so far as. we are. uh the oxytocin has a lot to do with. that I think is what I'm trying to say. so much so that people call that the. love drug yeah for sure like if you. Google love drug you'll probably run. across that pretty quickly that or. ecstasy yeah which we'll also get to MH. uh so the one of the other big caveats.

and I imagine like every lecture that uh. savulescu and her probably give start. off with them saying by the way when. we're talking about a love drug or a. love potion uh we're not talking about. what you've seen in movies and stories. and fairy tales when like uh some some. loser is attracted to like the the. hottest person in their class and so. they Spike their drink and all of a. sudden that person thinks they're. gorgeous and have and that you have a. winning personality they were like we're.

not talking about that at all uh there's. there's not a way to do that and even if. there was that's ethically not it's. dangerous to to even talk about. something like that um but what we're. talking about is people that are in. relationships who are in long-term. Partnerships or marriages um to use. potentially uh use these drugs to give. them some boost when they need it to in. increase those uh feelings not.

necessarily take them back to like the. Puppy Love Stage but not not do that. right um I say we take a break and we'll. come back and talk a little more about. that how about that yes it's. great uh we'll be right back. [Music].

okay Chuck so where we left off we were. basically saying that savescu and her. and all of them are like we're not you. can't create love out of nothing at all. as Air Supply would have put it um from. for these love drugs where these again. generally hypothetical theoretical love. drugs but you could use them to help. people who want to stay together but for. one reason or another have lost the the.

attachment that they once had uh that. could help people a lot and that's kind. of what they're they're pointing to as. like the main use of something like a. love drug if we ever come up with one. yeah and they'll also say things like uh. hey if you think we sound like human. monsters for trying to sort of regulate. or increase these Goodtime Feelings by. the use of drugs like what do you think. uh happens when a married couple that's.

been married for 25 years and are a. little sick of each other they go on a. sweet awesome vacation or go out and. have a couple of drinks together and at. a nice dinner uh it's basically the same. thing uh that we're talking about is. like th those are things that people are. accepting as uh a way to do that in your. marriage and we're just talking about. doing it in a way that's just a little. more dialed in and scientific exactly. you can take a love drug or you can go. to pfchangs your choice but the the. results going to be the same you're.

gonna fall right back in love right yeah. sure so uh yeah there that is a question. though it's kind of like okay well wait. a minute what if we're not if humans. aren't actually parab bonded if we're. not evolutionarily meant to be. monogamous then that does kind of seem. to be at least counter evolutionary to. take a drug to stay together I mean what. if that's like you know that's a that's. a signal that boredom is a signal that. you need to find a different. relationship or move on from the other.

one I mean that might be true in some. cases but there's also plenty of cases. too where people are not functionally. able to be attached as they want to be. to their mates in a relationship say. people with Autism people with. ADHD they might want to be in that. relationship but they're not bringing it. like they need to that's a good example. of how of supporting a monogamous. relationship ESS eventally rather than.

just forcing somebody to stay in by. drugging them yeah for sure and also. um like even though this might fly in. the face of evolution because I think. they even say that you know it seems. like evolutionarily we're supposed to. get together uh have a kid and stick. around together for about four years to. get that kid going in life and then. that's it evolutionarily speaking but uh. they're quick to point out like there. are a lot of benefits to long-term uh. coupling you know um it's good for your.

mental health or you know the Studies. have shown that it can be good for your. mental health and physical health and. overall well-being so and people are. doing it anyway you know they're not. like trying to to rewrite this uh people. are staying married anyway so they're. saying why don't we give people better. Tools in a clinical setting as like part. of coup's therapy so they can connect on. a level that they haven't in a while. yeah you can make a case like. evolutionarily speaking we should be.

beating up people who have different. hair color than us but we don't do that. because we've agreed as modern society. that's not that's in the past. evolutionarily speaking you can make the. same thing for monogamous relationships. even if we didn't evolve to socially. speaking we've decided as humans we're. kind of into that kind of thing so why. not use a drug to support that when. needed that's what they're saying that's. what they're saying and also they're. pointing out things these guys make a. lot of good points I have to say and. also so does Olia by the way um who.

helped us out with this one yeah Olivia. weighed in on some stuff and I thought. it was all like super valid and Smart M. uh but they also point out things like. hey you know we're on a bunch of. anti-love drugs like a lot of these. ssris that people are taking are. lowering their sex drive uh maybe. dampening their feelings and and sort of. dulling their feelings which is going to. affect their partner and the medical. community is like prescribing this stuff. to individuals when. people aren't just individuals they're.

in uh Partnerships and marriages where. uh they the whole family needs to be. considered with stuff like this and the. medical community doesn't doesn't look. at it that way and they should yeah and. they're using the opportunity in. discussing love drugs to point out that. like you we should be doing this with. other drugs that are already in wide use. like you said ssris like drugs that. impact the way that you interact with. other people people for good or ill this.

has to be considered and it should be. considered as part of the love drug too. right I think that's essentially what. they're saying yeah yeah as well as like. hey you don't just have to use these. drugs to to treat a a disease like why. not use these drugs for people that. don't have any disease to actually. enhance their life and their romantic. life that's a huge one too because what. they're essentially saying I watched a. couple of um lectures by Brian her and. he kind of really hit on this in one of.

them he was he was basically saying like. we have this as a society at least. American society we have this really. weird um like dichotomous view of drugs. right drugs that are made by. pharmaceutical companies that are. prescribed by doctors a okay but we only. use those to treat maladies when you. start to use those same drugs that are. Pharmaceuticals and prescribed to. improve something that we've already.

agreed as a good enough Baseline now. you're entering into the realm of. recreational drugs and we we as a. society are basically like we're not. cool with recreational drugs and that's. what siscu and her one of the other. points they're taking the opportunity to. point out is like that doesn't make any. sense morally ethically why would you. not use something that can improve. something that to make you happier to. make you feel closer to your mate even. if you're already doing good enough uh. and I think that's a really good point.

too but the other part of that point is. there's a concern that we would if we. start creating love drugs then as a. society we we would expect. pharmaceutical companies to come up with. some malady that these uh need to treat. or else they're not going to go anywhere. so we need to come up with something. like hypo loveia or something like that. where we're just not that good at loving. so we need these pills and now all of a. sudden we have labels like you're not.

very good at loving there's a new label. for somebody just because we can't be. like this is in and of itself is a good. thing we don't have to medicalize it. yeah don't take love aelf if you have a. bad reaction to love aelf that's. right that's a inside joke for our live. show fans right yeah for sure which. we'll be releasing that not too far from. now I would guess right yeah probably. end of the year is Fall late fall let's. say let's say yeah late.

fall all right so you know what kind of. drugs are we talking about uh you know. who knows what's coming down the line if. we're looking at what's in front of us. right now uh we can talk about a few. things um we've already talked about. booze uh alcohol is a drug and alcohol. is a drug that is already used for this. um they use this uh savescu and her you. use this as an example of like the. potential like hey someone it's fine if. someone goes out and has a couple of. drinks on a first date to to sort of.

relax them and make them a little more. socially uh maybe less awkward if that's. how they might feel and uh you know. again they're saying like this is what. we're talking about we're already doing. it with booze yeah I mean that yeah it's. a great smart thing to point out because. it's like oh okay well you just disarm. me savescu that's a point to you they. also point out that we have sex drugs uh. in rock and roll like Viagra is a sex. drug drug uh taking testosterone low tea.

ask Frank uh what's his name he'll tell. you the ladies are going to like it too. uh these are libido boosting chemicals. or erection producing chemicals and the. point of them is to have more or better. sex right and so cescu and her and their. ilk aren't saying like that's a love. drug they're saying these drugs can help. facilitate the things that produce. feelings of love say like the release of. oxytocin that comes from sex so. indirectly those are already love drugs.

that are on the market wait who's Frank. so and so Frank he's a a Hall of Fame. MLB Slugger from the 90s maybe early. 2000s oh oh Frank Thomas yes he does. Those ads with Doug fluty yeah yeah I've. seen those I forgot about those and he. does that creepy like she's gonna love. it too yeah it's a little creepy but. also like well they got paid for those. never mind yeah I was going to say good.

for them for like you know for taking. the mantle of of men with low tea but. uh so good for them. sure so uh you mentioned Prairie BS. earlier um Prairie vs are are great. Little Rascals they're good comps for um. for human behaviors when it comes to to. mating and bonding and stuff like that. uh they bond in ways that are kind of. like us in our marriages. uh so they bond um initially to um.

because of sex because that oxytocin is. released kind of like we do uh when. they're bonded they like to spend time. with one another uh they nest and make. homes together they care for their. offspring together they work together. they go to the farmers market together. yeah they go to the farmers market they. uh they buy those light up roses at. traffic stops people buy those sure I. thought it was just some sort of Ploy. for something else like there's you know.

a a kilo of cocaine in the bottom of. that bucket right or they want you to. like come meet their friend the leader. right yeah exactly well maybe it is I've. never bought him uh but they've done lab. experiments where they have administered. um oxytocin to females and then the vas. supress for the males and it it caused. them to bond just like they would if. they had mated without mating and if. they block those chemicals uh they don't. form the bonds so it's kind of you know. it's not direct proof but it's kind of.

like sitting right there saying hello. this works yeah and I mean again it. Prairie rolls are definitely pair bonded. species and humans aren't necessarily. but the fact that all of those brain. chemicals do the same things to them. that they appear to do to us that's. pretty it is a useful model for sure um. and oxytocin again we're going to keep. hitting that because there's a good. reason why people call it the love drug. and there's already available on the. market uh intranasally taken like one of.

those nasal sprays that you squeeze it's. oxytocin mhm it's available in that form. and uh it shouldn't cross the blood. brain barrier but it it does something. it actually does have an effect Studies. have shown like this actually has an. oxytocin like effect on the people who. use it um they think maybe if it doesn't. actually cross the blood brain barrier. just raises the general level of the. oxytocin in your system who knows. but from that people have proposed uses.

of this stuff that's already on the. market um in ways that are not quite. love but more kind of tap into the idea. that you can build trust with somebody. through oxytocin and that if you dose. them with that they will have to trust. you and here's the other thing about. oxytocin is there have been a lot of. studies on this stuff um kind of like. the the early 2000s is when all this got. um heavily researched you know ear least. the beginning of it and a lot of those.

results were you know pretty astounding. but a lot of those studies also can't be. replicated now so you know experts are. now saying like hey all those all those. early studies about oxytocin we really. need to kind of pump our brakes a little. bit um not saying completely discount it. but like let's just do more research. yeah and like some of those some of. those uses that were proposed that go. beyond love there was a Air Force Major. named David deaths uh who in 2007 wrote. a master's thesis on using oxytocin.

spray for things like hostage. negotiation and riot control to. establish immediate like trust with the. police or the military or whatever and. of course all this is theoretical but. that's exactly what savescu and her and. and the people that are with them are. are trying to do they're saying like. this stuff could be coming and we need. to talk about like how it's fraught and. how it could be useful and that's a good. example of how it's fraught you don't. want people controlling you are making. you trust them even though you probably.

shouldn't just because they've dosed you. with oxytocin if that ever really. becomes possible yeah and you know ER. and uh savales will also say like you. know um it seems to help out in some. positive ways but also some negative. ways uh and experts will chime in and. say well yeah but in a very limited way. like uh introducing this you know in in. a not a fake way but I guess what would. it be called exogenous way to your body.

just go out and uh take a hike and do. some exercising or give someone a hug. and that's about the same effect that. you're you're going to be getting by. introducing it you know uh. exogenously yeah. exogenously I like I like the first time. I kind of do too actually but the great. thing about an intranasal oxytocin spray. is you don't have to give somebody a. hug right yeah exactly and then also.

MDMA we said is something that comes up. a lot when you search love drug uh and. for good reason too I mean it does some. wacky stuff to your brain chemistry. including massive releases of oxytocin. dopamine norpine phrine cortisol. serotonin all the stuff that Helen. Fischer was hammering um create lust. romantic um love attachment all that. stuff gets released to varying degrees. when you take M dma it also makes you. grind your teeth like crazy and so.

people have said okay this could. conceivably be used therapeutically in. some form and especially before it was. outlawed in 1985 people were already. studying it like that they were using it. in therapeutic settings like coupl. therapy yeah for sure uh and then when. studies come out they say you know uh. when you take mdna you're more connected. you're you're more loving to people. there's a greater Bond uh when it comes. to even like casual.

conversations uh they it seem like. everything seems more meaningful uh. someone might also say yeah but the same. thing happens when you take. methamphetamine uh it's just impacting. instead of oxytocin it's impacting. dopamine and nor epinephrine and like. you said since 85 mdna uh MDMA sorry uh. has been banned for study and. Therapeutics but it is uh it is still. used in different countries uh a lot of.

times with people have PTSD. diagnosis and uh in couples therapy to. pretty great effect yeah I was reading. there's some couples therapists kind of. Rogue couples therapists who are like I. can't tell you to go buy MDMA and I. certainly can't tell you where to go buy. it but I can tell you that if you have. it on you and you show up to this. particular place we're going to be. having a retreat where you and your wife. would be able to take this in a. therapeutic setting so people are still. trying it and anecdotally they report.

especially compared to methamphetamine. that there's a lasting effect of like. the attachment that can be produced by. MDMA that lasts Beyond you know the. experience of being on MDMA so it could. conceivably be used as such but I think. if there's you know if we can isolate. oxytocin and you can use that I I would. guess we were probably going to go more. in that direction than MDMA and if you. have cash um um you might see my office. manager in the parking lot oh yeah I.

don't know anything about it right uh. Sharky is that the office manager yeah. with loads of MDMA uh let's take our. second break and we'll come back and. talk about the opposite of this how. about that let's do it. [Music].

all right so back to um savescu and. Herb it's fun to see together isn't it. what kind of singing Doo are they oh. let's. see um I I I I think one of them plays. the organ and the other one plays the. saxophone really lowkey stuff okay that.

sounds pretty good okay uh all right so. uh another thing that they propose like. you mentioned before the break is is the. opposite of that um maybe some drugs. that uh help you get away from the. feeling of Love um let's say you're in a. relationship that is um toxic or. complicated or even abusive and you have. a hard time leaving because you have. this attachment um that you just can't. let go of uh to your abuser or to your. toxic friend or loved one and maybe if.

you are stuck in that Loop we can design. drugs to give you the the uh the courage. to get out of that yeah I also saw uh in. one of those lectures that her gave some. other examples of how this could be. useful anti-love drug essentially um if. you're a pedophile seeking help or. treatment it could be useful for that if. you are involved in an incestuous uh. relationship you don't want to be it. could be helpful for that if you're.

committing adultery and you love the. person but you really love your spouse. even more it could be useful for that. and then lastly um if you are selling. those electric roses on the side of the. road it can help you stop loving your. cult leader as well so oh man there's a. there's a lot of other uses for it too. that you just wouldn't think of but when. you do think of it you're like actually. it would be great to have a drug for. those people that need that kind of help. and one of the other great things about. this is that there's no real downside to.

that like there's a there's a lot of. objections as we'll see to the idea of. creating love but how can you object to. Breaking harmful love there's really no. no problem with that that's kind of like. that's probably the best or least. objectionable use of a of a drug that. has to do with an effect on love you. know yeah for sure uh it's probably no. surprise that there's been a lot of CR. criticism about all of this stuff uh. there was a German ethicist named svin.

Nom in. 2014 uh that got wind of what savescu. and er were doing and they said you know. what it I don't even know if this counts. if it's essentially synthetic um like. it's it's not it's not real it's not. these innate characteristics that people. develop in a natural organic way um it's. it's a chemically uh mediated sort of. thing that you're designing yeah and you.

could see him being like okay that. that's a that's a pretty obvious. objection but he he laid it out pretty. well and essentially said like what this. focuses on is you know all of the things. that that a that an a loving attachment. can produce like health and lower. depression and you know um a stable. environment for the kids like those are. the goods that you guys are focusing on. what if we stop looking at love like. that and look at it as love is. intrinsically good in and of itself it.

doesn't matter what other great effects. it has love itself is good enough um. then if you're producing that chemically. even though you're creating all of these. great side effects like stability in the. house or you know just good times it's. still it's not love you can't say that. it's it's love that's that's ultimately. what his objection is yeah uh there's. another guy from Cal State uh guy named. Jacob Blair another philosopher. um who talk about you know he just. imagines two people in a relationship.

and he's saying well here's the thing. though is one's love for the other. doesn't depend on the actual true. characteristics of that person and like. who they really are and like I hear what. you're saying ER and cesco about like um. yeah but you know romantic dinners it's. the same thing and alcohol is the same. thing um but he argues back that like. yeah but you can't go to romantic. dinners every night and just have three. three or four drinks every night to keep.

that you know quote unquote genuine love. going uh it's not like a good comp who. can afford to go to PF Chang's every. single night not me man nobody not even. the owner PF Chang himself couldn't. afford. that so um there's another objection to. what Jacob Blair and Sven nyol were. saying uh in defense of sesu and her by. a Montreal ethicist named. orim narim Nar um Haim Nar argues that.

even if you're just. producing something that's like not. actual. love those side effects that are good um. are could be enough to keep you around. so that you are still experiencing all. the stuff that that love produces and so. if it's not actual love um you could. still conceivably appreciate the other. person's characteristics uh that make.

you love them and so the whole thing. kind of becomes hurly Burly at that. point and really what's the problem are. you guys just being philosophers being. philosophers I think is what Nar was. saying yeah there's there's definitely a. lot of that for everybody who is a. philosopher you know yeah for sure. that's just the the nature of the Beast. so it really is they love to argue and. put up weird situations to prove their. point. yeah I mean that's just the deal uh.

there's a bioethicist named Peter. Harrison Kelly um who went about it in. arguing it in a little bit different way. which is the notion of something like. oxytocin being a love drug you know it. all depends on this uh notion that um. that attachment is a feeling uh like. it's a drive that you have and he said I. don't think it's that that uh that. that's the case actually um it's not. like uh you don't have this drive to.

constantly feel this way toward a person. like you have these hormones that may. encourage that um but you already have. to have that attachment in place uh to. begin with but I mean it seems like. that's kind of what her and savescu were. saying though right yeah I didn't 100%. understand what the issue that Harrison. Kelly was Raising was that ER and. savescu didn't agree with like you were. saying like they're saying like yeah you. can't create this out of the blue but.

you can support it I guess what he was. saying is more he disagrees with Hellen. Fisher's idea like you were saying that. it's a drive like you can't compare. attachment to hunger like attachment is. its own thing it's separate from all. that so you're not boosting attachment. you're boosting the trappings of. attachment the feelings that you get. from attachment are being boosted but. don't make any mistake that you're. actually boosting attachment itself I is. what he saying that it's it's more than. just some sort of biochemical drive so.

yeah in a way he's certainly arguing and. at the same time supporting their point. I think yeah I think I think I agree. that's exactly what he's saying uh and. then you know of course we have to talk. finally about the fact that you know. these kind of things in the wrong hands. you know we've talked about spiking a. drink or something like that being a. just an awful thing to do um conversion. therapy uh I could definitely see this. getting into the hands of people who. think they could uh use it to convert uh.

lgbtq people like you know hey let's. just go put to uh uh two people in a. room together uh of uh you know put a. man and a woman there together and give. them this drug and see if that cures. them that kind of thing exactly um yeah. there's a lot of ways that it could be. misused and I think her and ceski were. criticized as basically saying like no. you just make sure that you regulate. them and make sure that the that they're. prescribed correctly and. uh they were definitely called out as. naive for suggesting that that's the.

only way that they would be used so yeah. that is definitely something that makes. it fraught for sure I agree FR you got. anything else about love drugs coming. soon no it seems like it's coming soon. in some way or another yep for sure uh. and if you want to know more about love. drugs just wait I guess and see what. happens and see if you can get your. doctor to prescribe them uh and in the. meantime it's time for listener mail. yeah I'm going to call this I'm glad I.

got this email because I I've been. getting this wrong all these years oh no. what with the with this song title okay. or the I guess the the singer uh Hey. guys listen to the episode on share uh. one of you mentioned and it was me Chuck. uh working at uh retail at Christmas it. was at the Gap and repeatedly hearing. the song uh Santa's Got a Brand New Bag. by James Taylor which you know you. corrected me in the. moment obviously is James Brown but he's. a James Brown is also incorrect uh the. song is clearly an homage to James Brown.

uh it is actually by a bunch of white. kids from Detroit called Bob Seager and. the last herd oh well yes that Bob. Seager he says uh the title is Socket to. me Santa and it was released in. 1966 on the Cameo Parkway records label. probably my favorite Christmas song and. 2018 an anthology of last heard singles. from 66 to 67 was released believe the. first time they've been compiled in one. place. uh this is also an unrelated R&B Funk.

song oh there is also an unrelated R&B. Funk song called socket to him Santa by. Joe chanal circus 68 that's worth a. listen and of course James Brown does. have a Christmas album with some pretty. great Tunes H and he died on Christmas. day I didn't know that 2006 D yeah wow. that was some deep Cuts who is that uh I. didn't even bother looking any of this. stuff up so I hope Kevin Schneider is. right he certainly comes across as. confident so I believed every word y. same here Kevin thank thank you for. mesmerizing us with your musical. knowledge and if you want to be like.

Kevin and Mesmerize us take your best. shot you can send it off to stuff. podcast at iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].